Freedom Reborn Archive

Is the red-haired girl on the trailer for Epic Movie the same girl from the diner that Hiro was dating?

Ya know, now that you mention it...................

According to IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1724323/) it is the same girl.

Well, since we have a Heroes topic(of sorts) here:

Quite some interesting twists here.

[spoiler]
Nathan as Claire's father.  Interesting.  I has guessed some relation between her and Peter and was thinking she might be his half-sister, but that didn't make since as her father was mentioned as being alive.  So I got somewhat close.

Peter can hold onto powers.  Nifty.  He also seems to not be able to handle using more than one at a time.  This makes him just about match for Sylar.  While Sylar can apparently use more than one power at a time, Peter can gather them more easily.

Nice to see Isaac able to use his powers at will now.
[/spoiler]

Yeah, cool episode, I deffinetly didn't see the twist with Claire coming.

I liked this a lot better than last episode.  It was enjoyable in its own right while still making you want to see the next episode.  Hopefully the next episode will do same.

[spoiler]
Nathan is Claire's daddy.  Who knew?  Okay, everyone who doesn't avoid spoilers like the plague knew, but it's still a big twist.

Claude is so incredibly awesome.  "If I hadn't regenerated, I would have died!"  "You could have flown."  :lol:  But, I find Peter's whining a little annoying.  You're the one that seeked him out, Pete, remember?

Did anyone notice that the license plate on Hiro's dad's car read NCC-1701?  Google it if you don't know what that means.

I heard about Mrs. Bennet's "I always knew him as-get away from that shoe, Mr. Muggles!" line a while ago, but it was still dissapointed.  I'm glad we got to see her mindwipe.  To think that happens to her all the time...  It made me dislike HRG a lot more.
[/spoiler]

I missed this myself, but did any one notice the license plate on Hiro's dad's limo?  I heard it was NCC 1701.  :D

Anyway great episode. 

Yes, Conduit mentioned that in his spoilers.  Wish I had seen that.

hey guys could u guys tell me what happen on today's ne episode?
i fell asleep and forgot about it :banghead:

It should be available to watch on nbc.com/heroes in a couple of hours.

If you don't have access to high-speed internet, let me know and I'll give you a basic recap.

We're forbidden from discussing episode details here, but head to the Wikipedia article; they always have a synopsis for each episode.

[spoiler]I liked Peter here.  I was wondering what Claude meant when he said Peter was an empath; empathy is emotion reading, Peter has power mimicry.  But now that he can recall it, it ties more closely into his emotions.  I like that.  I want to see in the Sylar battle his sheer, unadulterated rage allowing him to pull Sylar's powers; I figure before then he'll only be able to pull the clockwork vision.  Ooh, this is COOL!

Another note: I've noticed an interesting trichotomy between Sylar, Peter and Degauss.  Sylar takes powers from people, stealing them; this process has driven him insane.  Peter copies them out of his ability to connect with others.  Degauss simply cancels them out.  Sylar defies nature, he is abberative, evil, wrong.  Peter is noble, good and just, and ultimately compassionate.  Deguass is in the middle.  We don't know where his true loyalties lie, but I believe he is perfectly neutral, out for himself alone; it balances out the others so well.  Three Powers-manipulators, each with a different take on it.  I hope we see this parallel played out a lot more.[/spoiler]

I do know the Sylar-Peter parallel was done no purpose.  The writers and producers have mentioned it more than once.   Hadn't thought of the other, though.  Interesting.

Pfeh!

Finally got a chance to watch last night's ep and I wasn't impressed, except by the license plate number.

[spoiler]
Once again, the Niksica storyline is just treading water. I guess there's no reason to be surprised at that by now.

Claude is a jerk, but at least Peter isn't taken in by it. There is still zero reason for Peter to have believed Claude could help him. I like Peter getting some control over his powers, but it's important that he doesn't become too uber.

The romance between Isaac and Simone was sort of well done, although I can't bring myself to find any real interest in it. I know that at some point the Peter-Simone-Isaac triangle will play a role, because writers never weary of re-treading that tire, but I'd rather not see it.

The interaction between Hiro and Sulu was okay, but I am mostly glad that they got the strict-businessman-father-is-disappointed-in-his-undisciplined-son's-lack-of-career-focus storyline out of the way in just one episode. Let's face it, there is no way that Sulu would believe any of what Hiro is telling him without some demonstration, which Hiro cannot provide. Without that, we are supposed to accept that Sulu is - in his mind - leaving his wayward son, who likely needs psychotherapy, alone with some goof cube-dweller, en route to committing a felony in a foreign country. Yeah.

Yes, I know I am Mr. Negative here, but even the segment I liked the most was only okay. It was fine that Claire tracked down her biological mother and that at least indirectly involved the Sylar storyline which I was glad to see. But parts of even that little segment didn't hang together. For instance, Claire has been curious about her biological parents for a long time now but, when she finally meets her mother, she doesn't remember to ask about her father (who was the only one of her bio parents she had previously thought was alive) until she was leaving. And, then, she didn't even ask the burning question, "Is he, ya know, like us?" (Not that the Marlboro Woman would necessarily have known anyway, since we don't know how long Nathan has known about his powers. It was sort of implied that he was surprised by their presence at his wife's car crash, but Mrs. Zippo popped out the phrase "some family" almost as if Claire's revelation is one she's used to.)

Also, I know that Mrs. Bennet was made to forget the Sylar encounter, but there is sort of a lot over coving up to do there. There is the broken hutch, a denter refrigerator, probably some bullet holes in the kitchen, etc.

BTW, are we supposed to conclude that Sylar has some sort healing power anyway or invulnerability, since it looks like he took at least one (and probably two) shots when HRG stormed in, yet he managed to escape. We have seen this before when Agent Hanson shot him, and there was some speculation that he might be defending himself with his TK, but I don't think it's ever been really clear what's going on there.

I would like to see more of Mohinder, although that is in the works, if we are putting stock in the previews.
[/spoiler]

Anyway, I guess those are detail issues, but overall, the pacing is really starting to bug. I would like to see the central plot advance more than a token amount each episode.

i actually like the bendislike plot pacing.  although i agree with you about the treading water point, its because the water and the issues are so deep that you can do some serious water treading in them. 
control over powers, reactions from normal people, possible psychosis.   these are all quite realistic issues, and need time to develop and explore.  i don't want to see this show devolve into a freak-of-the-week driven show (just like what happened to Jericho)

I thought the last apisode was actually quite saisfying and kinda funny with Claude! :P

Going back to the season premiere did anyone see the promo with Ted and Wireless?

[spoiler]I love Wireless, her abilities are awesome! Id love to have those! HEHEHE *Sylar-ish*[/spoiler]

all around a good episode, we have some revalations and some good character development. i am dissapointed with peter and his quest to controll his powers but i will not get to into it here

I can't quite agree here. Treading water is rarely good and this wasn't an exception. That is not to say there isn't a need for strong character development - I like strong character development - but most of what we got wasn't even that good as character development. Some examples:

[spoiler]
First, look at Hiro's arc. Hiro is probably my favorite character on the show and I like knowing more about his background. But all we really got out of it was that he has a sister and his father runs the company where he worked. Of course, his father doesn't approve of his son running off on some fantasy goose chase, but we pretty much would have assumed that even if we never met his father. Meanwhile, a whole episode went by and we really didn't get anything from Hiro's segment about him or much that will enrich the plot. (Of course, we don't know that for sure, since he seemed to think he had a plan to get that sword, so maybe something from his encounter with his father and sister will come into play there...) Add that to the plot hole I mentioned before and I don't think the arc earns very good marks.

As far as character development goes, I agree that there was some, but I much preferred Hiro's arc with Charlie. There, we got a good portrait of Hiro's character; we saw him grow both in terms of maturity (realizing there are problems he cannot fix) and in nice details such as how he is picking up so much English; more personal motivation was added for him to be interested in stopping Sylar; a whole little story played out with an interesting new character and a touching romance; and the main plotline was impacted (e.g. with the knowledge of how little control he has over his time-travelling, etc.).

But the weak Hiro arc in this last episode is nothing compared to the Niksica arc. With Hiro, there was something we could file under character development - not great character development, but at least something. The Niksica arc in this ep and the last one was complete dead air. We learned almost nothing about the characters and there was no plot advancement or any progress on getting DL, Micah and Niksica closer to the other specials. I mean, in what way was the whole arc of her being in prison not a waste? She goes to jail and she gets out. What did we learn from it? That Linderman has an interest in her? We already knew that. That Micah has some sort of techno-control power? We knew that, too. I guess now DL knows about Micah's power, but they didn't do much with it and they could have revealed that at any time. I'm sorry, but I really think that the last two episodes spent a lot of time going nowhere with those three, both in terms of plot advancement and character development.

BTW, an example of some nice character development was the arc a few episodes ago where Mohinder, with the help of the Dream Kid, learned about his sister and the reason for his father's passion about his research. That was well-done, it gave interesting background, it added motivation to important characters, and it even moved the plot forward.
[/spoiler]

Anyway, I didn't dislike the episode overall, but it was disappointing. As I've said before, if too much time is spent like this, the writers risk a mad dash for the finish as the season winds down, leaving less time for adding interesting branches to the plot and leaving loose ends that will never be tied up.

[spoiler]Re: How was Niksica's prison arc not a waste?

Well, Niki and Jessica fought for control, and Jessica ended up winning complete control, at least for now.  That's pretty major character development.  Though I suppose they could have done that any number of ways.[/spoiler]

But that's not a change.  That's exactly how things were before the prison arc.  I too am disapointed in it.  I had hoped that Niki would come out of it in countrol.

Also there's the issue with how she got a "Get out of Jail Free" card... look's like she may also be drafted along with DL...

Yeah, her prison time was wasted.  So Niki's not in control.  Not much new there.  We learned she could bust out of hand-cuffs?  I guess that's something.

Well whoever got her out of prison must be able to pull some serious strings.  They got somebody to confess to the murders, and sent that agent to pick her up.  Seems like someone is putting together their own team.

We already know who was behind it.  You should have recognized that guy that came to here cell as Linderman's agent.

[spoiler]And Linderman was actually mentioned in that scene. But, I think Revenant might have meant that we were shown how deep Linderman's influence goes. E.g., bribing district attorneys, planting DNA evidence, etc.

BTW, aside from announcing that Niksica was sprung (from prison), it didn't seem like Linderman's agent had any immediate plans for her. When she asks what Linderman is up to, he tells her that isn't yet an issue. Linderman will want her to do something, but we don't really know if he knows about the specials at all (though I would guess that he does); he might have just been imprerssed by her previous jobs (theft and wet work) and have something like that for her to do again.[/spoiler]

Ok, I've got to admit I find complaints about pacing surprising, given that Heroes is rocket propelled compared to most other things on the air *coughLOSTcough*.  I think, as comic book junkies, we are spoiled by the amount of action we get in our comics, and I feel it is highly unrealistic to expect the same amount of action from a televison show.

More comments in spoilers - and there will be MAJOR SPOILERS, both confirmed and my speculations:

[spoiler]

Hiro - Actually, stumpster we had a great deal of things we suspected about Hiro confirmed; he's loyal, quick thinking, generous, good-hearted, and has a long history - dating back to childhood - of being a geek like us.  Not much happened in terms of plot, there, true - but they have to walk a very fine line, because there really isn't all that much that Hiro at full power can't handle.  So, they're slightly dragging out him getting to Linderman and getting the sword.

Speaking of- Linderman seems to be deliberatley arraning things so he has a great many Heroes in his debt- DL, Niki/Jessica, Nathan, Hiro.  Any one else get the feeling he's trying for an army?.

Oh and that scene at the museum?  Total Fake out.  Thanks to Proto, I have the T-Rex painting as my wallpaper, and a) Hiro's clothes are defeinitley being blown by T-Rex breath and b) He actually has the sword, not just the scabbard.

Nikisca- Yes, I'm tired of this storyline too.  I was really hoping that the upcoming Hero death on March 5 was going to be Jessica (it's been confirmed that its a female, and that it was someone we saw in the first 10 minutes of the pilot) - but with the annoucment that its going to be a "good" Hero, I'm pretty sure it's Claire.

Which, since Hiro won't have met Claire, his timeline wont include her death, and he should be able to back and undo it.

But I digress. Yes, the sole purpose of this arc (well, other than the "Linderman's gathering an army" motif) seems to be to establish that a) Niki has the Super Strength too and b) At least for now, Jessica's got total control of the body.  Yawn.

Still, Heroes has a long way to go before losing me as a viewer. I'm willing to put up with the occasional slow arc as long as the payoff is good.

Claire- Love, Love, Love Claire's mom.  The scene where the two of them demonstrate their abilities? Kick. Butt.  And I can totally buy Claire not asking about her real dad to the end- lying psycopath or no, she still feels an incredible bond with HRG, considering him in effect her "real" dad.

Her mom being a total space case (and Im sure the interfernce with her brain by the Haitan Sensation doesn't help) the bond is not as strong so she's far more curious about her real mother.

Sylar- He needs to die.  I get that they're setting him up for a final showdown with Peter (and does anyone have a list of all the powers Peter currently has- even though he can't access them all yet?) But he's getting irritating.  It needs to be established for certain that he has powers other than telekinesis, and exactly what he does do with the brains.

And after all, wouldn't Claire's ability zip her head shut just as fast as Sylar zipped it open?

Simone/Issac/Peter/Claude- Um, I'm not gonna shed any tears over Simone if she dies *hint hint NBC*.  I have zero interest in the triangle you are trying to set up.

Issac voluntarily works with HRG now, Hm?  Intersting- and "It means an old friend isn't as dead as we thought"- chilling line, perfectly delivered.

Claude - Rapidly becoming my second favorite male character on the show. I've been a fan of Eccelstons since his days as The Doctor and he turns in just as powerful a performance here.

The scene where Peter is about to go nuclear (which, how? He never met Ted) and Calude decks him with a single punch?  Priceless.

Next week, Mohinder and Sylar team up?  WTH?  Did someone not get the memo about the brain-eating and the general psychoticness?

[/spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PM

Next week, Mohinder and Sylar team up?  WTH?  Did someone not get the memo about the brain-eating and the general psychoticness?

I'm thinking that Mohinder doen'st know what Sylar looks like.  He can only recognize him as a guy with a jacket and a baseball cap, -thanks to the dream he had- and, in the preview, Sylar is not wearing a jacket or baseball cap, and is instead wearing a black T-shirt.  Thus, Mohinder probally thinks that Sylar, when he meets him next ep., is just another "special person".

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PM
Nikisca- Yes, I'm tired of this storyline too.  I was really hoping that the upcoming Hero death on March 5 was going to be Jessica (it's been confirmed that its a female, and that it was someone we saw in the first 10 minutes of the pilot) - but with the annoucment that its going to be a "good" Hero, I'm pretty sure it's Claire.

It's never been confirmed as a person with powers.  Indeed, Tim Kring specifically referred to the person simply as a regular in a recent TV Guide article (the interviewer asked if that was a clue, and he said that he never used the term "hero").  If it's a "good" female, it might be Simone, since, though she's been in fewer episodes than several supporting characters, she's technically a regular.  She was also in the first 10 minutes of the pilot (indeed, she was the second regular seen).

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PM
And after all, wouldn't Claire's ability zip her head shut just as fast as Sylar zipped it open?

Not if he were to hold the cut open with TK. Still, it would probably take him a little bit to figure that out, and once he did, it would still take a lot longer and require more effort than anyone else.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PM
The scene where Peter is about to go nuclear (which, how? He never met Ted) and Calude decks him with a single punch?  Priceless.

It looked to me like he was about to go into a coma, like in Fallout.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PM
Next week, Mohinder and Sylar team up?  WTH?  Did someone not get the memo about the brain-eating and the general psychoticness?

Like kkhohoho said, I don't think Mohinder's ever seen Sylar.

[/spoiler]

I pretty much agree with what Conduit says, although:

[spoiler]
A couple of the previews I've seen show Jessica and Matt facing off while they're talking about a hero dying.  It could just be a fakeout, but it would be a lame one, plus the last time they did something like that (Eden's death) the image they showed as they said that turned out to indeed be the dying character.  As for the argument that it was somebody good, Niki's good, and since she and Jessica share a body, kill one and you've killed the other.

In fact, if anything, that helps advance the plot a bit as her husband is concerned, because now he's REALLY stuck with no one to depend on.  Linderman would have him even more in his clutches.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Those previews of Matt fighting Jessica are from the next episode, and if the death is going to occur then, the promo monkeys would almost certainly have said so (the "upcoming weeks" preview is the only one that mentions the death).  And besides, it's been stated elsewhere that the death occurs in episode 18.

The death could still be Niki, though, and its a very good point that killing Jessica will kill Niki also.
[/spoiler]

Thanks for clarifying that, Conduit.  I'll have to go back and take another look at the "One hero flies and one hero dies" promo.

Peter so far has come into contact with his brother, the fly-boy, future Hiro, Isaac, Claire, Sylar, Dr. Who and the psychic cop.  Did I miss anyone?

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PM
Ok, I've got to admit I find complaints about pacing surprising, given that Heroes is rocket propelled compared to most other things on the air *coughLOSTcough*.  I think, as comic book junkies, we are spoiled by the amount of action we get in our comics, and I feel it is highly unrealistic to expect the same amount of action from a televison show.

I certainly can't disagree about Lost. That's been my complaint about that show since midway through the first season.

But my complaint has nothing at all to do with action. Though I have nothing against them, I don't care about 'splosions or fight scenes. That's partly why the Niksica arc is still a disappointment, despite the fact that you can rely on some beatemup in her story. What I want is for the plot to show meaningful development during the episode. That doesn't mean a big rush to catch Sylar or to deal with Peter's impending meltdown; we will get to that, but it's just the end game.  But there is plenty of mystery to both develop and resolve yet.

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PM
Hiro - Actually, stumpster we had a great deal of things we suspected about Hiro confirmed; he's loyal, quick thinking, generous, good-hearted, and has a long history - dating back to childhood - of being a geek like us.  Not much happened in terms of plot, there, true - but they have to walk a very fine line, because there really isn't all that much that Hiro at full power can't handle.  So, they're slightly dragging out him getting to Linderman and getting the sword.

But we know all about his traits, maybe not every single detail, but nothing revealed was a surprise in any way (e.g. we didn't know just how long he was into comics, but the first thing he did when he teleported to New York was buy one...) As much as I like the character, I easily prefer an episode or two where the focus shifts to the other characters so they can "catch up to him" (plot-wise) and we get only short scenes with Hiro and Ando to remind viewers where they are.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMSpeaking of- Linderman seems to be deliberatley arraning things so he has a great many Heroes in his debt- DL, Niki/Jessica, Nathan, Hiro.  Any one else get the feeling he's trying for an army?.

To early to tell, but he definitely wants to have influence over them. I can't guess if he has a specific mission in mind or if he is biding his time until they become useful to him. To be honest, if the writers don't get too up front with him by beating us over the head with his behind-the-scenes presence, he would be a good character to leave as a mystery for now (until maybe a late-season reveal) and develop into a major player for next season.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMOh and that scene at the museum?  Total Fake out.  Thanks to Proto, I have the T-Rex painting as my wallpaper, and a) Hiro's clothes are defeinitley being blown by T-Rex breath and b) He actually has the sword, not just the scabbard.

That would be a nice screen-saver. :-)

We already knew that there was more to that picture than a depiction of Hiro at the museum, though. It's clear from the first scene in which it appears (when Isaac paints it in front of Hiro and Ando) that Hiro looks very much to be holding a metallic sword, and not the black scabbard from the museum dinosaur scene. However, I can't tell that his clothes are being blown back; that could easily just be motion from the pose he was in.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMNikisca- Yes, I'm tired of this storyline too.  I was really hoping that the upcoming Hero death on March 5 was going to be Jessica (it's been confirmed that its a female, and that it was someone we saw in the first 10 minutes of the pilot) - but with the annoucment that its going to be a "good" Hero, I'm pretty sure it's Claire.

Which, since Hiro won't have met Claire, his timeline wont include her death, and he should be able to back and undo it.

I hadn't paid close attention to the rumors, but it could be Claire's biological mom, right? Or any other female regular. (Building a bit on catwhowalksbyhimself's point) in fact not only is Nikki good, but she's also a regular, non-special on the show. Maybe she dies and Jessica lives? There is zero reason to believe killing one necessarily kills the other. Having to deal with an unrestrained Jessica would be an interesting twist...

To be honest, I think that HRG has a habit of getting personally involved with some of the specials and I wouldn't be surprised if Mrs. HRG is one of them. He could have found her early on in his mission and kept her spaced out the same way he, apparently, plans to do with Claire. Maybe she communicates with animals (Hello, Mr. Muggles)  :P

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMBut I digress. Yes, the sole purpose of this arc (well, other than the "Linderman's gathering an army" motif) seems to be to establish that a) Niki has the Super Strength too and b) At least for now, Jessica's got total control of the body.  Yawn.

Agreed. We knew about her strength before and we even knew that Jessica could take over at any moment before.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMStill, Heroes has a long way to go before losing me as a viewer. I'm willing to put up with the occasional slow arc as long as the payoff is good.

Ditto. As I said, I don't dislike the episode but, for reasons I've mentioned, I think this approach to pacing will mean sacrifices later in the season.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMClaire- Love, Love, Love Claire's mom.  The scene where the two of them demonstrate their abilities? Kick. Butt.  And I can totally buy Claire not asking about her real dad to the end- lying psycopath or no, she still feels an incredible bond with HRG, considering him in effect her "real" dad.

Her mom being a total space case (and Im sure the interfernce with her brain by the Haitan Sensation doesn't help) the bond is not as strong so she's far more curious about her real mother.

Maybe, but she has also felt betrayed by HRG. He has taken her friend from her, tried to brainwash her, and generally made himself untrustworthy and made it clear he isn't someone with whom she can share her secret (which is a big part of her motivating drama), though I am sure she knows he thinks he is protecting her.

But, she would not forget to ask about her biological father because, all this time since she realized the two actors weren't her parents, he was the only one she thought she might find alive. And, meanwhile, she was kinda put off when she saw that her mom was living in a trailer in some small town. She is not going to forget her little girl fantasy that her real dad is a prince somewhere with a castle she can be swept off to, once he joyously discovers she's still alive.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMSimone/Issac/Peter/Claude- Um, I'm not gonna shed any tears over Simone if she dies *hint hint NBC*.  I have zero interest in the triangle you are trying to set up.

Ha. Just how I feel. Maybe she takes the hit in the March ep...

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMIssac voluntarily works with HRG now, Hm?  Intersting- and "It means an old friend isn't as dead as we thought"- chilling line, perfectly delivered.

Yes. That was cool. :cool: Of course, we don't know that HRG tried to kill Claude or anything like that, though it would be pretty standard writing to set up some animus between the "secret agent working for the man" type and the "lone wolf, trying to stay hidden" type.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMClaude - Rapidly becoming my second favorite male character on the show. I've been a fan of Eccelstons since his days as The Doctor and he turns in just as powerful a performance here.

It's interesting to me how many people are taken with Claude when he really hasn't done much so far. Peter was essentially correct when he took a stand against Claude on the rooftop: (as of yet) he doesn't have any answers (beyond the psychobabble), he is a lone parasite running from the world, and he was wrong about how Peter can use the powers. I like Claude, but he's no great shakes at this point. I'm wondering just how much of that is the Doctor Who appreciation creeping over. I never watch DW so I feel nothing extraordinary about Claude yet.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 10, 2007, 09:01:18 PMThe scene where Peter is about to go nuclear (which, how? He never met Ted) and Calude decks him with a single punch?  Priceless.

Another good scene! But, Peter wasn't going nuclear. He was just re-experiencing the other powers he has been exposed to, including Isaacs (and his own) visions of the disaster to come.
[/spoiler]

(Hopefully that wasn't too disjoint. I got Ninja'd a couple times and finally decided to just post the doggone thing.)

[spoiler]
It has been clearly stated by official sources that the dead character appeared within the first 10 minutes of the pilot.  That rules out Claire's mom.  It does leave Niki in the running, though.  If it's also a female character, that narrows it down to Simone, Niki, and Claire.  Probably one of the last two, since it's supposed to be a major character that fans have come to care for.  I don't think Simone qualifies.

Jessica and Niki share the same body.  There's been no indication that hurting one wouldn't hurt the other, and that makes no sense to me.

Also don't read too much into the dino picture.  One of the producers in his blog has stated that the paintings are done before the scene is filmed, and sometimes before the script is even written for that scene.  Several other scenes intended to be the one shown in the picture have differed from the paintings substantially, something those who do the show aren't entirely happy about but can't always avoid.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 10, 2007, 11:04:48 PMJessica and Niki share the same body.  There's been no indication that hurting one wouldn't hurt the other, and that makes no sense to me.

There's been no indication one way or the other so no reason for us to reach any conclusions. Meanwhile, we don't even know that Nikki and Jessica actually even share the same body. They have different brains and Nikki has a non-powered body whereas Jessica has a superpowered body with a tattoo. All we know is that the bodies look similar (as we would expect of twins) and Jessica's body appears in the same place Nikki's was while Nikki takes her place in some nearby reflective surface. Maybe one body is just the portal for the other. I'm not sayig that's for sure what happens, but we don't know any different from what we have been shown.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 10, 2007, 11:04:48 PMAlso don't read too much into the dino picture.  One of the producers in his blog has stated that the paintings are done before the scene is filmed, and sometimes before the script is even written for that scene.  Several other scenes intended to be the one shown in the picture have differed from the paintings substantially, something those who do the show aren't entirely happy about but can't always avoid.

Good point. There are likely to be some false reveals in the show and this is as good a candidate as any. It would certainly be a big detour to have Hiro's storyline jump 65 million years into the past.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

QuoteThey have different brains and Nikki has a non-powered body whereas Jessica has a superpowered body with a tattoo.

Good point with the tattoo, but both characters have superpowers.  Nikki has used superstrength at least once when not controlled by Jessica.  She did so without knowing what she was doing and was shocked when she did.  Plus there's no switching.  We've seen them switch places with no noticable change other than personality.  It's pretty obvious to me that there's only one body here.  That tatoo I dismiss as something done for the show's sake.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I didn't think Nikki had been shown using any real super strength when we were sure Jessica hadn't popped in, so maybe I am forgetting something. When was that?

But, at least recently, there have been no scenes with a super powered Niksica when we could see an untatooed right shoulder. And, they have been very deliberate about showing it for Jessica on several occasions.

Of course, that still doesn't refute the theory that two of them share the same body and only Jessica knows how to use the powers. I am just saying that, with the writers emphasizing the tattoo switch and the fact that they can only communicate via mirrors (and not just mentally or via some other hallucination), the idea that they are really two separate beings instead of one person with a mental disorder should get some consideration.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 10, 2007, 11:04:48 PMJessica and Niki share the same body.  There's been no indication that hurting one wouldn't hurt the other, and that makes no sense to me.

Even if they do share the same body, destroying every trace of Niki's personality could theoretically kill her without harming Jessica.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

When DL and Micah came to visit Niki in prison, it goes bad, and one of the guard goes to whack Niki with his nightstick - she catches it and snaps it cleanly and then stands there stunned with a "What the heck just happened?" look on her face as the other guards dogpile her.

I took that as a pretty clear indication that Niki has the power as well.

As for the tattoo - there have been cases of MPD where one of the personalities has been able to alter eye color (occupational hazard of working in mental health) - so the tattoo is a bit of a stretch, but not impossible (well, not impossible in a show about super powered people)

[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 10, 2007, 11:04:48 PM
[spoiler]
  One of the producers in his blog has stated that the paintings are done before the scene is filmed, and sometimes before the script is even written for that scene.  Several other scenes intended to be the one shown in the picture have differed from the paintings substantially, something those who do the show aren't entirely happy about but can't always avoid.
[/spoiler]

yeah actually its Tim Sale who does all of the paintings,  Jeph Loeb brought him on to do the artwork for the show.  Loeb and Sale have done some of the most memorable graphic novels in recent years in my opinion...  A Superman for All Seasons, Batman : The Long Halloween and many more batman GN's, and they did a series of Marvel GN's all themed on colours, i only remember Daredevil:Yellow off the top of my head though.

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 11, 2007, 07:32:23 AMWhen DL and Micah came to visit Niki in prison, it goes bad, and one of the guard goes to whack Niki with his nightstick - she catches it and snaps it cleanly and then stands there stunned with a "What the heck just happened?" look on her face as the other guards dogpile her.

I took that as a pretty clear indication that Niki has the power as well.

Interesting. When I saw that, it seemed to me that Jessica had popped in to save Nikki, as she always does, and then popped out right away, leaving Nikki confused about what had happened. Of course, on second view, it could have been Nikki unexpectedly using powers, and she was wearing the prison jumpsuit, so we can't see the tattoo.

Recently, it seems as though even when Jessica is in charge, Nikki is more "there" in the sense that she remembers what happened and knows what Jessica has done, even though she was appalled and couldn't stop it.

As to the original question, though: Even if they are literally sharing the same body and the tattoo is just some throwaway gimmick, it is still possible that Nikki dies and Jessica lives. I am not proposing that as the most likely outcome at all, but it Jessica can take more damage than Nikki, so imagine if Nikki took some fatal blow and is laying there dead when suddenly the eyes pop open and she gets up, the camera panning her as she walks by, giving us just a glimpse of a tattooed right shoulder. Would that scene really so shocking to us? I think we could deal with it.

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 11, 2007, 07:32:23 AMAs for the tattoo - there have been cases of MPD where one of the personalities has been able to alter eye color (occupational hazard of working in mental health) - so the tattoo is a bit of a stretch, but not impossible (well, not impossible in a show about super powered people)

For sure, the tattoo could come and go on the same body, either as a side effect of the super powers manifesting or of Jessica's personality becoming dominant. My only issue with that is that the writers have made so much deliberate use of it, that it ought to mean something significant and not just be a red herring. Recall that it is a recurring symbol...

And, I find nothing unbelievable about Nikki just being someone with a psychological problem brought on by child abuse and the death of her sister. Why not? That's the typical story, that's what writers have been taught is "compelling" drama that makes a character "sympathetic" and "accessible". I would be a little disappointed in that because it is such an ordinary thing and this is a show about extraordinary things. But, I readily admit that the standard story template is for someone like that to "experience personal growth" and "deal with her issues" to the point where she gains direct control of her powers. Blah, blah, blah. Save it for the Lifetime network. To me, the more interesting idea is that Jessica really is a different being who is not driven by an urge to "do the right thing" and that Nikki and, eventually, the other specials have to learn to bargain with her in order to get her to help.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy on February 10, 2007, 10:49:48 PM
I hadn't paid close attention to the rumors, but it could be Claire's biological mom, right? Or any other female regular.

Claire's biomom isn't a regular.  In TV terminology, a regular is someone credited as part of the main cast.  In this show, the female regulars are Claire, Niki, and Simone, all of whom were in the first 10 minutes of the pilot.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 10, 2007, 11:04:48 PM
If it's also a female character, that narrows it down to Simone, Niki, and Claire.  Probably one of the last two, since it's supposed to be a major character that fans have come to care for.  I don't think Simone qualifies.

Huh?  I've never seen it stated that it's someone fans have come to care for.  Even if that was stated somewhere, that's still extremely subjective.[/spoiler]

I agree with your last statement.  It is all rather objective, but a guy can make educated guesses.

In case you haven't heard, Stan Lee's going to make a cameo appearance in a couple of weeks.

Haha, AWESOME, Stan the man.

Some thoughts about tonights episode:

[spoiler]
I like the Hiro-Ando role reversal.  In spite of the way things turned out, I still think Ando behaved more like the hero here.

Well, after seeing Mrs. Petrelli tonight, we know where Nathan gets it from.

Am I the only one who thinks that there was no reason for the police not to believe Matt?  I mean you could see that the break in the window was not at ground level, Matt was outside, and the broken handcuffs have got to be around somewhere.  All the evidence back up what he said.  Seems to me that the writers are just starting to be hard on Matt just because.  At least he got the diamonds.

Yet another case of the writers bringing characters together naturally, only to force them apart before they actually meet.  I'm starting to get a wee bit sick of this.

So what exactly is Puddle Boy's power?
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Seems to me that the puddle boys powers are exactly that, to melt objects.  Although it would never happen, I would have like to seen Sylar go into his house, ask him to show him his power, and then say "Man, what am i gonna do with that, this is a complete waste of my time." 

My thoughts about who will be killed, if it's anybody in the cast, it's Isaac, on the sheer value that he has really run out of use the rest of the season except being a lackey of HRG, however, i doubt they'll kill him off.  I feel like it has to be Simone if it's a woman, for the sole reason that her death could push Peter over the edge with his emotions, which we have seen can control his powers.  That's my two cents.

Forgot about something.  I have a feeling one of the powers Sylar possesses is being bulletproof.  He takes the impact, as seen when he smashed into the fridge and dented it, and passes that energy along, which was what dented the fridge.  Thoughts?  [/spoiler]

This episode was notable for one long-running thing...
[spoiler]
Demonstrating Sylar using a power other than telekinesis.
[/spoiler]

Ugggggggghhhhhhh..........
[spoiler]Personally, I have to say I was very mad when Matt took the diamonds.
I was also very angry that Nikki didn't even try to fight Jessica out of her body.

I mean......Its your body.......do SOMETHING more then whine![/spoiler]

Im happy though because I liked.....

[spoiler]1. Lady with super hearing!
2. Wireless will be in the next episode!
3. If Wireless is in it there is a strong chance that Ted will be there too![/spoiler]

I have also noticed......
[spoiler]There is a trend on technology.
Micah = Able to manipulate the machinery to do anything through touch.
Wireless = Able to commune through technology with her brain. (Possibly more.)
Sylar = Able to see something broken and fix it....not just humans but that watch worked too.[/spoiler]

Just to clarify:

[spoiler]
The lady with superhearing was NOT in this episode, so if you didn't know what Nymph meant, you didn't miss anything.  There was a preview during Deal or No Deal where a scene was shown.
[/spoiler]

Hey, at least something actually happened this time around.

*shrugs*

This episode was definitely filler.  Very enjoyable filler, but filler nonetheless.  Very dissapointed with the complete lack of Peter and Isaac.

[spoiler]
I want to punch Meredith, Nathan's mother, and HRG.  Poor Claire, poor Mrs. Bennet, poor Mr. Muggles. :(

The Hiro and Ando plot was a little slow (that scene in the bedroom when they were arguing over whether they should leave or not was drawn out way too long).  But it was still enjoyable and Hiro's vulcan salute and "I come in peace" at the end more than made up for any shortcomings it had.  At least it will actually tie into their main plot.

The preview made it really look like Mrs. Bennet is going to die next episode, but that's just a red herring.  The actress is credited as guest starring in the episode after that.
[/spoiler]

What I find funny...

[spoiler]I live in Virginia Beach... and that wasn't Virginia Beach.  I know for the interest of money and time the actual set location was probably... some place else, where ever, but it's funny to know it looked as if they were on an elevated spot and the only elevated spot in this city is a mound of trash(formally).  And there are no palm trees at all and there's not a single spot in this city that even remotely resembles what it looked like outside of that house.[/spoiler]

But thanks for the shout out nonetheless.

I thought it was generally pretty good. We got a bit of character development, some plot advancement, and most of the segments were pretty sound.

Some random comments/observations:

[spoiler]

Well, so it was wet work that Linderman wanted from Jessica. Apparently, he has an eye for talent and maybe he is testing her for other abilities as well... And, yeesh, there was some temerity in sending the same guy to free Jessica who was to be her first job. I guess it saved the effort of sending her a photo of him.  :o


I was disappointed that Matt took the diamonds. That was unnecessary and a tough thing to cover up. If an out-of-work cop who was a bodyguard during an incident where two million dollars went missing suddenly has money, someone is going to notice. And, by "someone", I mean Linderman (though, the cops are going to at least suspect him, too). Don't forget that Linderman and Jessica are in contact. So Linderman either thinks that the diamonds are still sitting there in the building somewhere (which means they will be found), that Jessica got them (which would be real chutzpah; for her to steal from him while she is trying to work off her debt from having stolen from him), or that Matt knows where they are. Regardless of which option Linderman thinks is most likely, there is no way he isn't going to "make sure" Matt tells all he knows. That bodes ill for Mrs. Parker. Never mind that Jessica probably wants to know how Matt knows about Nikki, though she may be the incurious sort.

Meanwhile it would have been fairly easy to at least make himself look good. He could have just said he heard his client mumbling about four and three before Jessica ambushed him and then he could have made a show of poking around the ceiling tiles and finding the loot, impressing everyone with his powers of observation and deduction. And, in general, a telepath can make himself look good just by having everyone else's grasp of a given situation.

I'm not saying this development isn't good for the plot, but I am disappointed that his self-esteem issue is turning into a serious moral failing.

As another aside, since his issues with his power have already gotten him suspended, never mind that everyone he meets is going to think he's some sort of nut, I wish Matt would realize he needs to show some discretion about the thoughts he's picking up and not blurt them out right away.


At least now we know for sure that Jessica is actually evil and not just someone acting to protect Nikki or Micah or whatever excuse she might use. She enjoyed her work.


Does anyone else think that maybe Nikki and Jessica could be headed for a separate existence? Wild guess, I suppose, but the stairwell scene made it pretty clear that, for the first time as far as I know, Nikki "appeared" to Jessica while not a reflection. It could be that she is becoming more substantial on her own. Or, it could just mean that the hallucinations are getting more free-form...

BTW, we saw that Jessica knows that the tattoo is something that distinguishes her from Nikki. Does Nikki know about it? (T wit, has she seen it?) I would assume so, since it seems she is conscious somewhere, even when Jessica is dominant. Presumably, if she got a chance she would tell DL and Micah to check for that.


Moving on, I'm not sure it makes a whole lot of sense for Linderman to want to have Nathan hit. I mean, he already has Nathan in his pocket (as much as he can) with the money and the pictures with Jessica. Why would he go through the trouble to cultivate that asset and then waste it?


Meanwhile, I agree that we learned something important about Nathan's character tonight. He has a nicer side that his mother works to keep suppressed, either for her own reasons or because she really thinks it's best for his career. Of course, he is an adult now, so if he's a jerk, it's on him. But at least we know he hasn't lost all of his decent inclinations, even if he lets himself be talked out of them.

(And, regarding the whole reason to bend over for the extortion, to be honest, I'm not sure having fathered an out-of-wedlock child when he was probably about twenty would really keep one fro winning elective office in New York City. Especially since he had every reason to believe that the kid and the mother both died years before he got married. However, if it gets out that he was paying hush money to keep the mother silent and that he knew about the child and refused to see her, then there is a real scandal and voter alienation...)


We didn't see Isaac, Peter, or Claude this ep. Oh, well. There was plenty going on and I would rather that some of these stories get a decent wedge of time rather than all of the stories get a tiny sliver.


So, anyway, despite her issues with her dad (the one who raised her), now Claire knows that her bio parents are hardly worth the DNA they donated. I agree with everyone that HRG is harsh on Claire and generally an ends-justify-any-means guy, which is unheroic. We really don't know what his actual goals and motivations are. But, Claire cut loose with the "you're not my real father" line (how predictable was that?  <_<) before she heard the conversation between Nathan and Meredith. Maybe now she will see that the people who have taken care of her for her whole life have earned the title more than the people whose relation is mostly a twist of fate or a broken condom.


BTW, do we have any indication that HRG knew beforehand that Lemnos' (my name for the Haitian) influence would do any permanent damage to Mrs. HRG? If he did, then the wickedness is hard to deny. If not, then at least he might have thought he was keeping her safe somehow, though I don't accept that as a justification.


I liked the Hiro-Ando segments. It is fun to see them try and do something with no powers, especially since Hiro is really the 800 pound gorilla, power-wise (excepting the mimics). And, as much as this particular route (to try and get the sword from Linderman) may turn out to be a dead end, it is realistic that every attempt isn't a bulls-eye. I still hope that they at least learn something about Linderman that is useful.

Also, "Thanks for the help, Sulu." If only she knew.  :rolleyes:


I liked Micah's take on how having powers means they should be heroes or something and they should talk about it. Of course, the ATM heists are a weak start... But I would be curious how Jessica handles that conversation.  :P


BTW, I think Mr. Liquid's powers could be very useful. For one thing, it makes him pretty hard to imprison. Also, in the right/wrong hands, there is no particular reason it shouldn't work on people. Of course, most of the time, writers like to assume that people are "special" somehow, which is fine from a power balance teleology, though that limitation is a little unlikely from a logical perspective (i.e., if you can melt a plastic phone, you can melt bones, etc.).

It looked to me that the puddles looked like they went back to being solid again after a while. I mean, the half-melted phone didn't look like the puddle it was in was still liquid. Did anyone else think that or are we to think that anything he turns to liquid stays liquid indefinitely? Just from a pure thermodynamics perspective (which I know is wasted in this genre), I would love to know if the liquefied items change temperature when liquefied or re-solidified. He may have sort of a source of free energy on his hands. (Which I guess could be said of most of these powers...)

To re-mention a previous aside, what the heck is wrong with these specials? Who wouldn't think having a super power, even an odd one like that, was cool? I mean, I could see if it were uncontrollable and everything he touched went to goo, but that obviously wasn't the case or he'd be naked and have fallen through the floor. I just wish there were more people who discovered their power who thought it was a good thing. Maybe that's one of the things I like about Hiro.


FWIW, the show was probably filmed on the west coast, including the Virginia Beach scenes. It always catches my eye when shows have a beach scene that is supposed to be on the East coast somewhere and it has obviously been filmed in California. There must be a half dozen instances of that in Seinfeld, for example, which otherwise goes out of its way to be a New York City show (even if it's all back lots and sound stages).
[/spoiler]

You should probably check out the new graphic novel.

[spoiler]It proves that Sylar has indeed acquired cryokinesis and Charlie's supermemory.  It's good to see other superpowers of his finally coming into play.[/spoiler]

good episode, but i have a feeling that they are changing things as they go,i think when they got re-newed for a second season they are re-thinking and re-writing the scripts

[spoiler]

Niki/Jessica - I'm a little confused about the timing here.  Jessica calles Linderman and agrees to be a hitter in exchange for freedom.  Linderman sends weasel guy to free her. Weasel guy turns right around and steals 2 million dollars from Linderman causing Linderman to hire Jessica to kill him?  Seems rather implausible, even for this show.

Oh, and Niki on the stairs - I just figured that meant Niki was getting stronger. First only in refelctions, then a free-standing hallucinations- then fighting for the body.  Interesting that Matt can hear her, though.

As for why Linderman would want Nathan hit - I can think of a few reasons, starting with Nathan's blackmailing him for an extra 2 million.  Of course, it might all be some sort of set-up; I keep getting this image of Linderman moving Heroes around on a giant chess board.

Hiro/Ando - Hee.  All the best lines, as usual.  "I come in peace" "Stop saying everything I said to you."  And don't blame Ando - I've read that Hope has an uber sex-appeal power.

Claire/Meredith/Nathan/HRG- Ok, now I don't like Meredith quite so much :( (I've never liked Nathan, so...) I'd be curious how HRG knew about the tickets.  And I thought that repeated brain wipes by the Haitain Sensnation were not helping Claire's mom from being a space case. Nicely played, show.

Sylar/Mohinder - Mohinder is now offically the dumbest smart person I know (unless further episodes reveal that Sylar is using some sort of power on him).  The guy on the phone sounded and acted NOTHING like the guy he met.  But yay for FINALLY showing that Sylar is, indeed acquiring new powers.

Matt - Yay for finally acquiring something requiring a backbone.  Boo for using it to go to the dark side.

Oh, and I'm pretty sure the new phrase is "No one is safe."  Though they can keep repeating "Someone dies" every episode, because someone dies on this show a lot :).

[/spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy on February 13, 2007, 12:44:55 AM

To re-mention a previous aside, what the heck is wrong with these specials? Who wouldn't think having a super power, even an odd one like that, was cool? I mean, I could see if it were uncontrollable and everything he touched went to goo, but that obviously wasn't the case or he'd be naked and have fallen through the floor. I just wish there were more people who discovered their power who thought it was a good thing. Maybe that's one of the things I like about Hiro.

THANK YOU!  This is my main problem with 99% of Marvel's output.  I don't care what power you've got, I still think most folks are going to go "COOOOOOOLLLLL!" rather than "Freak! Kill it! Die! Die!"

If you saw the preview before this episode, you would have met another hero who does find her powers to be VERY useful--and uses them to turn the tables on Sylar.

[spoiler]
In the clip, Mohinder and Sylar meet a character with superhearing.  When Mohinder tells her that it must be hard, she replies with "Are you kidding, this is the best thing that ever happened to me!"  She then explains that her power lets her sense minute mood changes in people because she can hear all their body functions in detail, then turns and looks at Sylar and tells him "you're very nervous about something."
[/spoiler]

That's very cool and it seems real to me. If I got even a second-tier power like microscopic vision, I would be psyched. Heck, I think, in real life, the Legion of Substitute Heroes all have cool powers.  ;)

[spoiler]
Just another note on the scene where Matt catches Jessica and handcuffs her to the rail:

1) When she drops the gun down the stairwell, it floats around quite a bit while it drops, making me think it's a lightweight plastic prop. No big deal, but it looks funny.

2) After all the thoughts he was picking up from Jessica earlier, it bugs me that he didn't get any indication of how surprised she was that he could "hear" Nikki. More importantly, he didn't seem to have any clue that she was totally lying to him when she said Nikki was probably off killing Malsky at that moment.

Of course, if he called her on it, she probably would have tossed him over the rail...
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Couple things about Mohinder.  I gave him a lot more credit, he definitely suspects something about Sylar, but he's unsure of what it is.  Mohinder called the guy, and the guy called back to Mohinder, which made me think since he was scared, the phone melted a bit.  I mean remember when Sylar took telekinesis from that guy, the guy didn't have great control over his power, but when Sylar took it, he had amazing control over it.  I think the same is for the melting objects stuff.  Zane, I finally remember his name, was scared and half melted the phone, not knowing fully how to use his power, and then when Mohinder saw Sylar completely melt something really easily, and then looked at the half melted phone, something began to stir in his mind about Sylar.  He's not sure what it is, but he wants to understand more about him.  I want to rewatch it to see if Sylar made any slip ups about calling and so forth because they showed Mohinder stare at that half melted phone twice I believe.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy on February 13, 2007, 02:50:39 PM
2) After all the thoughts he was picking up from Jessica earlier, it bugs me that he didn't get any indication of how surprised she was that he could "hear" Nikki. More importantly, he didn't seem to have any clue that she was totally lying to him when she said Nikki was probably off killing Malsky at that moment.

Of course, if he called her on it, she probably would have tossed him over the rail...

I am thinking that Matt has gained some control over his telepathy... he turned it up so he could locate Jessica, and ended up hearing her inner monologue... but when he had her cuffed, he wasn't using it to probe her mind, since he was thinking about protecting Malsky.  Also he may have heard thoughts but mistook them for actual voices.  Earlier scenes had him picking up stray thoughts, it seems now that he can focus it, which might not be a good thing.

The stairwell is the first time Jessica/Nikki has appeared without the aid of a reflection.  I hope this happens more, to the point where Nikki and Jessica become two seperate beings (wasn't her power once billed as "being in two places at once"?)

I'm worried about Matt... this doesn't bode well, I could see him being killed off after that crisis of conscience.  The show is called Heroes, after all.

Claire's situation is understandable.. She is really growing to hate HRG after seeing Mrs. Bennet's mind destroyed.  As an outsider she must know, as HRG knows, that the excessive mindwiping is not healthy.  Meeting Peter, aside from being a schoolgirl-crush for her, was a glimpse of the real goodness and selflessness in people.  I loved it when she threw the baseball!  I don't think she got a good look at Nathan, did anybody catch that?  Surely they will be meeting up again at some point.

I think melty-guy's power was disintegration.  It looked as if the molecules of the object lost the binding force that held them together, rather than their temperature rising.  If that were the case, there would have been discoloration, smoke, light or scorching going on.

Just a wild speculation, but perhaps Sylar will take the Nuke Man's powers during his travels with Mohinder, and Peter will absorb them from Sylar?[/spoiler]

There's one BIG mistake people keep making about this episode:

[spoiler]

QuoteThe stairwell is the first time Jessica/Nikki has appeared without the aid of a reflection.  I hope this happens more, to the point where Nikki and Jessica become two seperate beings (wasn't her power once billed as "being in two places at once"?)

Not true.  This has happened once before.  When Jessica was trying to kill her husband right before she took back control and turned herself in, the two face each other over the desert.  I believe Niki appears first in a pond, but then appears next to Jessica and the rest of the conversation takes place that way.

Jessica's surprise in this episode that Matt could hear Niki, however, seems to indicate that these manifestations are not physical, but solely mental.
[/spoiler]

Ah you're right, I had forgotten about that desert scene.

I do believe that the manifestations are mental, but I don't think that they are merely hallucinations.  I'd like to  think there is more to Nikki/Jessica than a split personality disorder.  Unless the images are only hallucinations, and she really is crazy.  I'd rather see something more extraordinary on a show where one guy can stop time and another can fly.

It's quite possible.  Micah seemed to think that's the way it was.  (Anybody else think it strange that he could tell the difference quite easily and over the phone before, but seems to be fooled now?)

LOLZORZ!!!!!!!!!

Ugly Betty.....Betty's co-worker Henry was going to fall in love with Betty.

His Ex-Girlfriend comes back to town!
His ex is the same girl who played our "Super Memory Girl" lol!

You know her name on Heroes........on Ugly Betty.....it's Charlie!!!!!!
:P    :thumbup:   :P

Much better.  There was more plot advancement in this episode than in the past 3 combined.

About the death:

[spoiler]Well this proves that the lady who claimed to know who it was and gave several spoilers and hints was dead wrong.  Her hints contradicted several of the creator's hints anyways.  And I don't remember who she is, so don't ask.  She works for one of the big entertainment news programs and wrote some articles on their website.

Anyway, the death made perfect sense and wasn't anyone we'll really miss that much.  It also does do a lot for the plot.  Whether it drives Peter and Issac further apart or back together, we'll see.[/spoiler]

Some things of interest:

[spoiler]Peter is switching between powers pretty well now.  You can really see that in the Isaac vs. Peter scene.

Peter can apparently only use one power at a time, but he can switch between them easily.

HRG no knows that Claire knows.

Matt's taking a step more toward the heroic.  Sort of.

Ando and Hiro part ways.  Don't know if this is permanent or not.

Hiro still has his full powers, especially as he does something he's never done before.   It's apparently all mental, which is what I figured.[/spoiler]

Next weeks' going to be interested.  We'll learn HRG's origin.

The show continues to be a joy to watch (at least for me). I keep wanting to see what happens next and hate when 10 p.m. arrives. This latest episode had a lot of cool moments (Stan Lee the bus driver :thumbup:). Hope they keep up with the surprises.

This episode was pretty good.  It went by really fast and managed to move the plot along.

[spoiler]
So Simone's dead.  Color me surprised.  Also confused.  The actress is credited as being in the next 2 episodes.  Maybe they did that to keep it secret (if so, VERY smart move, publicity guys), or maybe she'll show up in flashbacks.  I really hope this isn't a fakeout.  Can't say I would be too sad if she's gone.  However, her death will probably have a big impact.  It'll make Isaac and Peter reconcile, if nothing else.

I am however, very sad to have Ando and Claude gone.  At least we got to see Ando realize his mistake and Claude punch Peter again.

On a lighter note, Stan Lee! :D  WOOOOT!!!!!!

I can't wait for next episode.  Finally we get some answers.
[/spoiler]

For those wondering if the comics are canon, this appeared on the weekly question and answer section with two of the writers.

QuoteShe continues, "Also, will the online comics continue through the 2nd hiatus, as it did with the 1st hiatus?"

Absolutely. We wouldn't leave you guys hanging. We don't want to give too much away – but the break will begin with our friend Hana, as her hunt for vengeance will lead her to discover a story from the past, (which, of course, we'll also learn) and ending with a revelation that will effect the on-screen story for many of our characters.

So if the comics are going to effect the on-screen characters, that would be a yes.

They mentioned a deleted scene in which Mohinder mentioned to HRG that his father found Claire because of a blood sample used in the Genome project.  That combined with the same thing tonight, answers the earlier question on how Suresh came up with the list in the first place.

Now that episode made things happen!

[spoiler]
Peter was hardcore when he and Claude got attacked, it was awesome!  Those were some real super-heroics.  Was it time-stopping or TK that protected him from the tazer though?  I wasn't sure.  That the tazer ends dropped rather than continued on afterwards made it seem like TK to me.  

Mohinder is clearly getting suspicious, and Sylar just can't keep up the sane act for long.  Also nice to see Claire standing up to her father.  I don't think he's evil, not really, just going too far to protect his family, even from themselves.  I think next week will be an eye-opener for her.

I'm not too broken up by Simone's apparent death ( I say apparent, because Peter should have Hiro's powers, which clearly include reversing time) as she doesn't add much to the show at this point.  A minor prediction here: if Peter gets really angry and blames Isaac for Simone dying, he's going to be come a villain, if a misguided rather than evil one; if he blames himself, or they both blame themselves and reconcile, he'll stay a hero.

I also figured Hiro's power-loss to be psychological, nice to get confirmation of that, and when and if he gets the sword he's after it will turn out to be the classic "magic feather" syndrome.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Talavar on February 19, 2007, 08:12:05 PM
( I say apparent, because Peter should have Hiro's powers, which clearly include reversing time.)

Of course, we know from Hiro's attempt to save Charlie that going back in time to save someone isn't as easy as one might think.  Indeed, it might be impossible.
[/spoiler]

Some responses

[spoiler]

QuoteThe actress is credited as being in the next 2 episodes.  Maybe they did that to keep it secret (if so, VERY smart move, publicity guys), or maybe she'll show up in flashbacks.

The shows alway pick up with the last few seconds of the last episodes.  We'll likely see a repeat of the shooting, meaning that the acress will indeed be in the next episode, especially if we see the ambulance take here away.  If her body, a funeral, for example, is seen later on, that could explain the 2nd episode.

QuotePeter was hardcore when he and Claude got attacked, it was awesome!  Those were some real super-heroics.  Was it time-stopping or TK that protected him from the tazer though?  I wasn't sure.  That the tazer ends dropped rather than continued on afterwards made it seem like TK to me. 

Since the agents freeze, it was definitely time freeze.  Notice, though, that they're moving again when it drops.  I took this to mean that he switched from Hiro's powers to Sylar's stolen TK.  However, seeing what Hiro did with the gun, causing the bullet to go backwards without actually rewinding time, it could be Hiro's time control as well.

By the way, the writers revealed today that Peter and Sylar will fight "technically, more than twice" by the end of the season.  Those should be some good superfights, expecially now that we know that Peter can absorb from Sylar anything that he steals from someone else, but it seems that Sylar can use them all at once, while Peter has to switch.  Should be interesting.  It also makes Peter even more dangerous to Sylar, since every time they meet, it makes Peter more powerful.[/spoiler]

Peter and Sylar fighting would be awesome at this point, though...
[spoiler]
...time stop is kind of a trump card, don't you think?  All Pete needs to do is stop time, and then he can pretty much do whatever he wants to Sylar.
[/spoiler]

You know what I'm really hope happens?

[spoiler]Issac gets some better powers.  PLEASE.  Because honestly, painting has got to be one of the lamest powers in the history of fantasy.  Given he can paint the future, but he seems to be a severely limited character, particularly when compared to the others, many of whom have powers that are much more expansive, like Hiro and Peter of course, but even find another usage of it.  The Hatian's powers deal with some sort of mental dampening ability(can erase memories and block other's abilities, which I assume is of a mental use).  Claude doesn't simply turn invisible, things he touch turn invisible as well.  Even the lady with superhearing has shown to be able to apply her powers in more than one simple way.  But Issac, all he does is paint.  And appearently snitch on others.[/spoiler]

And why do Isaac's powers have to be any different?  He's just as powerful as the others.  Yeah, he can't fight or do anything involving really cool special effects, but his power is vital to the plot.  Give me a power that matters in the plot but isn't very spectacular over one that is there just for show any time.

Hate to break it to you guys, but this wasn't the death we've been hearing about - that happens on March 5. So, it's even money on whether or not Simone survives this at this point.

[spoiler] The spoilers I've seen were nearly perfectly dead on, once you realize they refer to two different things.

Kristen from E online, who I belive cat was referrring to said " A hero will be shot by another hero and you wont belive who shoots who". While I wouldn't call Simone a Hero per se that's pretty much the only thing she got wrong.

Both she and other sources have confirmed that another Hero bites the dust on March the 5th. And they have also confirmed that a) Its a girl, b) its someone who was featured in the first ten minutes of the pilot, and c) Its not Claire (yay!)

So regardless of whether or not SImone survives, it's not the death the spoilers were about.

[/spoiler]

Actually, it WAS the death some of the spoilers were about, as today's date was specifically given by the creator.  Tonights victim was

[spoiler]a girl who appeared in the first ten minutes[/spoiler]

And the ads for tonight's episode specifically said "someone flies, someone dies," both of which did happen.

That's not to say you aren't right, it makes sense, but this was indeed the death I've been talking about and hearing about, at least.  After all, today's date was flashed around.

Also:

[spoiler]Kristen's spoilers said nothing about a girl who appeared in the first ten minutes.  Those came from the creator, and I'm pretty sure he named today's date, so you're mixing up the two deaths as well.  Those spoilers were fulfulled tonight.  If you accept two different spoilers about two different heroes, it all makes sense.[/spoiler]

if you're talking about [spoiler] super-hearing lady [/spoiler] I hadnt seen any spoilers relating to that death.

Nor to the deaths of [spoiler] Any of Sylar's victims [/spoiler] for that matter.  Generally spoiler sites dont concern themselves with such minor characters.

Still I will grant you that the promo was dead on.

And now it is very late, and I will go to bed.


Edited to add:
[spoiler]
You were right about Kristen.  I got that first ten minutes thing fron Auselio at Tv guide.  My bad - I go to so many spoiler sites, I lose track of who said what. [/spoiler]

No of course not.  The death I was talking about was most definitely.

[spoiler]Simone[/spoiler]

She fits all the spoilers except for that one source which you explained.

There were a LOT of spoilers saying basically that:

[spoiler]
A main character would die today.  It would be a female appearing in the first 10 minutes of the show and would be someone we had known since the beginning.
[/spoiler]

This was the death I've been talking about.  Until you popped in here, I had no idea about the other.

[spoiler]Has it been confirmed through some other source that Peter can only use one power at a time? I saw no confirmation in tonight's episode, since we can't even say that he wasn't using invisibility and at the same time using TK to throw the paint cans at Isaac. Of course, he also could have thrown the cans the old fashioned way, but that's exactly my point: we don't know. It's possible he can use more than one at once but it takes more concentration, so he doesn't do it unless necessary.

BTW, the other issue aside, it seemed odd to me that he didn't use Hiro's power to get Simone to a hospital, or do some triage on his own (he is a nurse after all). You could do pretty good damage control if you knew your patient wasn't going to bleed to death while you removed the bullets and made some quick stitches...

Just for the record, the idea that Isaac is a snitch doesn't seem that well-justified to me. Sure, we know that HRG isn't on the up-and-up, But Isaac doesn't. In Isaac's mind, HRG is the one who sent Eden to him, the one who helped get him clean, the one who helped him control his powers, and someone who was trying to catch the killer Sylar (who is also planning to kill Isaac, according to what Isaac learned from Hiro). When you have the power to see the future and only know few people who both believe you and might be able to help, was it really so unreasonable for him to contact HRG?

Meanwhile, Peter has to be able to understand that same thing. The only way that Peter knows HRG is a bad guy (or at least an unfriendly good guy) is that HRG attacked him. But he doesn't have any reason to believe Isaac knew that was going to happen when he called HRG. (I'm not really even sure how Peter knew it was Isaac that called HRG, but that's a separate issue.) And, Peter himself was surprised when Claude ran off, so he can't assume Isaac knew that would happen. Not to mention that he can't blame Isaac for taking pretty seriously the fact that Peter might blow up the city. I'm just saying that Peter came on pretty strong against Isaac given how little he had against him. (Also keep in mind that, when Peter last saw Isaac, Isaac didn't have nearly the control he apparently does now over his precog painting. So, the argument that Peter thinks Isaac should have known is weak.)

As an aside, Sylar is sort of a strategic idiot. There was no need to kill Audiophile right then, especially after she basically accused him of hiding something right in front of Mohinder. Mohinder is Sylar's key to finding the rest of the specials, why should he tip his hand so soon? Assuming their story gets some time, we shouldn't get to the end of the next episode without Mohinder figuring out who Sylar is.
[/spoiler]

One of the best episodes in a while.

[spoiler]Claude has shown that there's a bit more to him than there seems to be, when he was talking scientifically to Peter regarding the birds.

Simone possibly killed off? Whoopie. I don't like the character (do like the actress, though), so I couldn't care less. The trailer tagline `someone will fly, someone will die' was somewhat misleading to me at least, as it was quite obvious that someone would die with Sylar around, but I was sort of expecting a main character with powers to bite it, not someone we've never seen before and a supporting character.

Peter able to control powers he's copied = Sylar's worst nightmare if they come face to face again. Especially with Peter realizing he has TK and where it came from. I can think of a couple ways that Hiro or Peter could stop Sylar using the time controlling power, but I'm not sure if Hiro would have the backbone, or the brains, to figure it out and actually go through with either of them.

Peter is slowly catching up to Hiro as my favorite character, and amazingly it has nothing to do with either of the characters' abilities. (I like Ali Larter, but I don't really care either way about Nikki or Jessica, despite her doing an amazing job playing both parts)

If he doesn't get what's coming to him next week, or Claire doesn't get away from him, what's Claire going to do next time HRG asks the Haitian to wipe her memories? I don't think he'd risk HRG's anger by faking it again.....[/spoiler]

And a question for anyone reading the advance spoilers:

[spoiler]Who's apparently going to get killed off on March 5th?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: GhostMachine on February 20, 2007, 02:02:53 AMIf he doesn't get what's coming to him next week, or Claire doesn't get away from him, what's Claire going to do next time HRG asks the Haitian to wipe her memories? I don't think he'd risk HRG's anger by faking it again.....

I'm not so sure. We really don't know what hold HRG has over him and he risked it before. It wasn't a certainty, but anyone who thinks a teenage girl is going to keep that kind of secret is pretty foolish and Lemnos doesn't strike me as a foolish man. He had to have assumed that Claire would eventually blurt it out. Her whole motivation of feeling alone and desperate for someone to accept her isn't the profile of someone who can keep secrets.

Meanwhile, a giant unknown in all this is what powers HRG has. If he has none, what's to stop Lemnos from just wiping HRG's knowledge of Claire's knowledge?

BTW, we have a pretty serious moral benchmark coming up here. Now that HRG knows that the mindwipes have definite medical consequences, will he continue to use them? Of course, mitigating factors are that he only knows there is a problem with repeated use, as with Claire's mom. A single use may not be harmful. Also, the one person who may well be resistant to the cerebral scarring damage would be Claire, so he kind of has an out there.

Random thought: I really doubt this going to happen, but doesn't it seem like Matt could kind of get out of his dilemma vis-a-vis the diamonds by anonymously mailing them back to Linderman? He knows it was Linderman who was after Malsky for stealing the 2 million.
[/spoiler]

actually..

[spoiler]
We might both be right.  Simone was shot tonight, true, but given that next week's episode is going to be mainly flashbacks about HRG she very well might not die until March 5th; so the spoilers might be about the same thing after all.  That would also explain why the actress is contracted for the next two episodes.

It seems a bit premature, given that we went out on her getting shot, to assume that Peter will not use Hiro's powers in order to get her to a hospital- that may happen next week, and may indeed be what keeps her alive to March the 5th.

Very glad that Claude is still alive, and that scene on the rooftop demonstrated what makes me love this show so much.  They are clearly setting up a huge Peter vs Sylar fight (season finale, perhaps?) which should be a blast to watch.  Was it just me, though- or did Peter's voice go a little demonesque while he was yelling at Issac?

As for how Peter knew to go to Issac- Claude made it pretty clear that it was Issac on the rooftop.

Hiro sending Ando off was sad, but Stan Lee!  Also, glad to see that Hiro's powers still work and that it was a psychological thing, like I was thinking.

If Mohinder doesn't figure out whats going on in his next signficant chunk of screen time, he is going to deserve the title of "Dumbest smart person on the show".  I mean : "Gee, <superhearing lady> complained about headaches after the power started shoing up, and I take Zane to see her (Zane has been acting awfully squirrely lately, too!), she gets murdered and now Zane's complaining about  headaches! Why, no - that's not suspicious in the slightest."

As for Matt, while mailing the diamonds back to Linderman may get him off the hook, I think, given the previews for next week, he's going to have much bigger things to worry about.  And speaking of HRG- way to go, Claire for dressing him down like that.  Hayden delivered a great performance- shes becoming my second favorite character on the show.

[/spoiler]

Haven't had time to read through all of the responses, so forgive me if this has been said:
[spoiler]As far as Peter only being able to use one power at a time -- he was invisible and using his TK to throw the paint cans.  We know he wasn't picking them up because they didn't turn invisible before being thrown.

Unless we are to assume that he has better control than Calude does at this point.
[/spoiler]

Just my 2 cents.

Didn't think of that Kitt Basher. Nice theory.

-MJB

I think it's good to see that...
[spoiler]
Sylar can't control his compulsion to eat brains, or however he actually steals powers, even though it's tipping his hand.  The man is psycho, and real psychos can't just turn it on and off.  Get them in a situation that plays to their fixation, and it'll come out.  Finding super-powered people and killing them to steal their powers is Sylar's fixation; if he could control it, he probably wouldn't be travelling across the country killing people to get at their brains.
[/spoiler]

Good point Talavar, Sylar is realistic in that way.

Kitt Basher:

[spoiler]I DO think that Peter picked up the paint cans.  Claude picked up some things without them immediately becoming invisible.  It seems he has to make them do so.  Peter doesn't have nearly Claude's control over invisibility, and he'd only be picking them up for a split second.  In fact, the sequence of events on the rooftop pretty much convinced me that he has to use one at a time, otherwise, he could have just flow off with time still frozen, but he didn't.  He had to unfreeze time first.

That doesn't not mean, however, that he might learn to do so in the future, but that would make him almost too powerful.  People are already complaining online about Hiro being too powerful.[/spoiler]

EDIT:  Hmm, there's a new catchphrase on the official website, "No one is safe," with Matt's character featured prominently.

Also, the latest comic has a very strong hint as to who HRG's boss is.

[spoiler]
Hanna follows the electronic messages from him into a casino.  The comic doesn't say which casino, or where, but it does look like Linderman's casino, although it might just be a red herring.  She never finds the source, because she detects a video feed of a little girl getting ready to strip for a camera, so she lets the other signals dissipate, finds the guy behind the camera, beats him up, traces the signal back to every one logging on to watch, and emails the evidence of what they're doing to the local police stations of each and every customer. Probably the most heroic thing in the comics (or show) so far.[/spoiler]

Has anyone been on the Primatech Papersite????

Its actually quite Fun!  :thumbup:

[spoiler]The Whole thing is like a put up until you go to the "About Us" page. Then you hit the P in Primatech.......
Username: Bennet
Password: Claire

The Profiles are:
1: Hana (Wireless)                          *Passwords for these can be found on different sites and forums*
2: Matt                                     There is also a Website out there set up to be like it's in Hana's head. 
3. Ted                                           URL: http://www.samantha48616e61.com/ (http://www.samantha48616e61.com/)   
4. Gabriel (Sylar)[/spoiler]

Hana is the coolest! YAY WIRELESS!  :D

[spoiler]

Quote from: GhostMachine on February 20, 2007, 02:02:53 AM
If he doesn't get what's coming to him next week, or Claire doesn't get away from him, what's Claire going to do next time HRG asks the Haitian to wipe her memories? I don't think he'd risk HRG's anger by faking it again.....

Maybe he'll just assume that her healing powers undid the midwipe, meaning that he can't erase her memories.

EDIT: There's also the fact that at this point, erasing Mrs. Bennet's memory again could quite possibly kill her.  So, if she finds out about things (highly likely given what happens the next episode), HRG probably wouldn't want to risk it.
[/spoiler]

Loving the show, watching it on the website of course so Im a day behind. Three big things...

[spoiler]
1) Our invisible man is aparently a lot more than a street urchin. Thank god, It was bugging me to see a Bum act all Obi Wan Kenobi... but aparently he is one of the scientists or in some other way involved with the program.

2) I too was shocked to see Simone shot. In retrospect the character has always mildly rubbed me the wrong way (its an odd mix of her being naive and skeptical, maternal and downright mean) but she was pretty central, kind of like a coincidence that brought a lot of characters together. Also her death will mean some silence on the whole supers thing.

3) How is it possible that a super nerd like Hiro is unable to recognize a senile Stan Lee who has hijacked a greyhound bus?  ;)

[/spoiler]

Cat:

[spoiler]I considered that as well, but I remembered that the purse Peter was holding was invisible.  Of course Claude did hand it to him. hmmm ... I'll have to ponder a bit longer  :P [/spoiler]

Figured I'd throw this in while I still have it on my mind:

[spoiler] Ok, so we now know that Peter can use the powers of every "super" he has came in contact with. The thing that confuses me is that when future Hiro visits him, he says something about a scar. How can Peter have a scar if he can use Claire's super regen? Also, I believe that right now Peter seems to have the upperhand if he were to fight Sylar (he has the better power list), but that will probably change. [/spoiler]

NomadX:

[spoiler]Some official sources have confirmed that Peter will indeed gain a scar and apparently become bald as well.

He may have Claire's powers, but he has to switch them one.  If he's knocked out, or his powers go ballistic. . . well, let's just say, I can see it happening.[/spoiler]

Hey, I can't remember, has Peter met, or at least come in contact, with Eden? That would explain the "Evil voice" he had. Plus, if you notice, Isaac does tell him the truth as to why he wants Peter captured, which is what Pete asked for...

Come to think of it, yes, he did.  She was in the room when he met with Mohinder, and repeated the conversation to HRG.  Good catch!

Quote from: Nymph on February 20, 2007, 03:15:53 PM
Has anyone been on the Primatech Papersite????

Its actually quite Fun!  :thumbup:

Oh, its much more than that.  Go ahead and call the 1-800 number to get the code for the employment page- apply for a job and you'll start to get messages from Wireless( best if you have a cell phone, it seems- they are really slow about sending emails :( ).

The latest text leads you to:

http://www.corinthianlasvegas.com/

Owned and operated by our favorite shadowy man behind the scenes, Linderman- apparently this is what he does when hes not ordering hits or framing politicans.

Play the flash games till you get $400k in credit- you'll then get a pop up asking if you want to join their "Titan Club." - among the perks that Titan Club members get?  Tours of Mr. Linderman's private collections!

Hahahahah.. that's cool.I'm loving the tieins they're doing.  First the comics and hte Blog, now this. 

BTW: Bad me, every time the guy who took Hiro to find Ando talked, I thought of Spongebob Squarepants (Bill does the voice of Patrick Star)

Some random thoughts
[spoiler]
There is a lot of stuff that we just don't know, despite some interesting speculation.

• We don't know if Peter can use two or more powers at once. The paint can toss was a wash, since it could be done either way and we don't really know whether everything an invisible touches becomes invisible or not. I am in the two+ camp, but only because, if - as people seem to think - he used TK drop the taser bullets after he used time stop to halt them, then he either had to use the TK at the same time as the time stop was in effect, or he had to use the TK on them when they were only a foot or so away, which means in just a few milliseconds. Frankly, the bullets didn't move forward at all between the time they halted and the time they dropped, which supports the simultaneous TK and time stop theory.
  
  As an aside, the two+ version does make Peter more powerful then the strict one theory, but there are many things the writers can do to balance this. For instance, using too many simultaneously or too close together may make him sick or the powers unstable or even unhinge him mentally. Or it might just plain wear him out. We saw him huffing at the end of the Isaak scene.

• We don't know that Claude is a scientist, though he at least knows a little trivia about pidgeons. I would lean toward his being a researcher at some point, but only because that's the sort of thing writers like and it gives them a chance to shoehorn in some backstory with him and Chandra and perhaps set up some interplay with Mohinder, when the time arises.

• Back to Peter, we don't know how long he can replicate powers, once exposed to them. Moreover, we don't know if the person from whom he gets the power has to be using it at the time or just has to have it. So far, I think all the powers he has shown are ones that were in use near him. (Though I am not quite sure about Isaac, since we can't really be sure how his power was working when he was spun.)

• During Sylar's captivity, one of the guys poking him (I think it's the guy he snuffs and leaves in his place for HRG to find) speculates that all the different DNA he is absorbing is driving him crazy. Maybe, maybe not. He killed someone before he absorbed any DNA, so his homocidal tendencies existed (and were expressed) just with his own DNA. Whether absorbing more is making him crazier or not, we have no way to say.

Meanwhile, it's possible that there exists a character who can permanently remove a power or powers. Mohinder suggested that there might be a technological way to do so and we know that Lemnos can apparently suppress a power (I am assuming that was his doing and not HRG's, though technically, I think they were both there whenever it happened.) If the healing power he mimicked from Claire were removed, that might explain his scar (which we may never see anyway, since that was just from a possible future). One could argue that the scar should heal as soon as he gets the power again, but unless all his dental work is undone (assuming he has ever had a filling, wisdom teeth removed, etc.) and anything similar (appendectomies, tonsilectomies, and any similar somewhat common procedures), it may be that a wound that heals without the regen power stays healed the old way. Of course, Peter may at some point be able to control the power to the point where he might choose not to have a certain wound heal, for symbolic purposes...

BTW, all this reminds me that we should never see Claire (or Peter, now) with a sun tan or burn. And, without elaborating, let's just say that, if she's ever pushed into a volcano, only the gods will know if it was a legitimate sacrifice.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: Glitch Girl on February 20, 2007, 07:31:10 PM
BTW: Bad me, every time the guy who took Hiro to find Ando talked, I thought of Spongebob Squarepants (Bill does the voice of Patrick Star)

It must be the curse of being a VO* nut. I was thinking the same thing while watching him on the last episode.  :blink:

-MJB

[size=0]*=voice over[/size]

Assuming the bomb plot works out one way or another at the end of the season, and all the characters are there for it... let's start seeing some speculation. Let's see some plot runs that bring everybody together in time. Creative writing time, folks! :)

About Peter's scar:

[spoiler]As I said earlier in this thread, the writers have confirmed that he WILL be getting it at some point.  It may not be until the second season, though.[/spoiler]

Noticed how in Peter's Dream........When he explodes.......

[spoiler]Simone is there.....but she can't now so it might not be a proper prediction.
Sylar may blow up NYC not him.[/spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on February 20, 2007, 06:25:19 PM

Quote from: Nymph on February 20, 2007, 03:15:53 PM
Has anyone been on the Primatech Papersite????

Its actually quite Fun!  :thumbup:

Oh, its much more than that.  Go ahead and call the 1-800 number to get the code for the employment page- apply for a job and you'll start to get messages from Wireless( best if you have a cell phone, it seems- they are really slow about sending emails :( ).

The latest text leads you to:

http://www.corinthianlasvegas.com/

Owned and operated by our favorite shadowy man behind the scenes, Linderman- apparently this is what he does when hes not ordering hits or framing politicans.

Play the flash games till you get $400k in credit- you'll then get a pop up asking if you want to join their "Titan Club." - among the perks that Titan Club members get?  Tours of Mr. Linderman's private collections!

Cool.. I'm good at blackjack, I'm trying it on my downtime at work.

Quote from: stumpy on February 21, 2007, 04:34:23 AM
During Sylar's captivity, one of the guys poking him (I think it's the guy he snuffs and leaves in his place for HRG to find) speculates that all the different DNA he is absorbing is driving him crazy. Maybe, maybe not. He killed someone before he absorbed any DNA, so his homocidal tendencies existed (and were expressed) just with his own DNA. Whether absorbing more is making him crazier or not, we have no way to say.[/li][/list]

In my opinion Sylar started out as a predator. He had this instinct that said "kill and feed and become more powerful". The more powers he has absorved the greedier he gets. Earlier in the series he would stalk his victims for hours. Now he randmly kills people with a very high risk of incriminating himself (such as in the most recent episode). In other words Im pretty sure he is not getting any smarter.

I think with Sylar it's also a matter of growing boldness.  Not only does he have a large arsenal of powers to draw on now, but he's also been getting away with murder basically for some time, and he escaped from the only people who tried to stop him.  That's got to make him believe no one could stop him at this point.

That's not increased boldness, that's increased arrogance.  Sylar thinks that now he has access to the List, he's untouchable.  He figures he can rack up powers faster than the cops can get on his tail, and with each one becomes stronger and stronger until he's untouchable.

Note: If Peter can use Sylar's telekinesis, and his powers are based off of his empathy, will he only be able to reuse powers that he's seen Sylar use?  If Peter has copied Sylar's cyrokinesis, super-memory and clockwork vision (among others), does he even know he can?  All he's ever seen Sylar use is the psychokinesis.  What if he needs to do some good old fashioned research to see what Sylar's full abilities are, and how to use them?  And Sylar's powers are abberative and unnatural because they've been stolen--will copying those powers cause some sort of as-of-now unknown side effect in Peter?  If Sylar's insanity became more pronounced as his DNA changed, and we know Peter's powers rapidly alter his genetic code, maybe combining the two is a recipe for disaster.  Since the telekinesis was the only power he mimicked, it wouldn't have too much effect, but what about later, if he suddenly copies all of them?  Or perhaps it's tied into the time Sylar absorbed them.  Early on, he wasn't altering his DNA much, but later, when his genes were already scrambled, each new addition is harder and harder.  So maybe Peter wouldn't feel bad because of the clockwork vision or the telekinesis, but somethign bad might happen if he copies, say, molecular deconstitution or super-hearing.

Adding my 2 cents......

SYLAR:

Beginning of the series he is alot more cunning in the way he killed people it was incredibly smart and outlandish
that it could have only been him....he took his time doing it and left no trace!   
(My Take)  His role was that of a predator who knew how to kill his prey with a clear goal. (Take thier powers slowly.)<----Like a Hunter

Now he is taking down any 'super'/'hero' he can find! No praying on te enemy with caution. He is so cocky that he can take them on that he doesnt care. What Sylar has failed to retain is the hunter like instinct....and his goal. 
(My Take) His role.....now......is that of a Junkie or Addict! He has no restriction. Dale even pointed out how he was nervous and anxious when they talked.  I like how he devolved into a lower state of mind there....yet his body and abilities increase. His new goal........(Get as powerful as possible fast!)  <----Like a Glutton

My only positive part about this is that they are adding better dialogue for him other than "Im psycho!"...."I am powerful!"...."I want more!"   LOL!  :P   "What is that sound, there, in your heart?"       "Murder!!!!!!"

Finally this show is being translated (via subtitles..thank goodness) and shown in China.  I just saw epi 15 or 16..can't remember. 

[spoiler]
Sylar joined Dr. Sereshe and picked up what could be molecular deconstruction...good prediction Gremlin!  Claire's mother makes me sick...how can she deny her daughter a chance to meet her father and cheat hear out of half of the $100,000?  At first I thought she didn't want the money, because she was surprised by the offer.  But the fact that she cheated her daughter out of a proper cut makes me wonder if she really is the mother.

We know Hiro hasn't lost his powers, but what would cause him not to be able to use them for so long?
[/spoiler]

Quote from: Gremlin on February 21, 2007, 08:04:52 PM
Note: If Peter can use Sylar's telekinesis, and his powers are based off of his empathy, will he only be able to reuse powers that he's seen Sylar use?  If Peter has copied Sylar's cyrokinesis, super-memory and clockwork vision (among others), does he even know he can?  All he's ever seen Sylar use is the psychokinesis.

Clockwork Vision. I really like that term. Just sounds cool. Good one!

Pete could possibly draw all those power and not know it. Like I said earlier, he met Eden. She never used her powers around him, but he (probably) channeled them anyways. I think he just has to be near the power to aquire it, and think of the power to use it. It's just a mental block for him to have to think about the people who use them.

I also think the dream was more of a metaphor (that's not a good word for it. I can't think of what I want to say) of what's going to happen. I mean, he is absorbing powers at an alarming rate (his line, "I've absorbed their powers, Nathan. I can't control it.") His may cause the destruction to the other characters, albiet in other ways (already kind- of caused the death of Simone). Nate is starting to get closer to him (Line: "I'm here. I'm here to help."). And, I mean, why in the heck would Matt the Psychic be wearing his cop uniform in New York, especially after he's been kicked off the force... and Clair's cheerleader outfit?! I'm gonna have to look at the tape again, to see if there's any more info to back up my idea.

Well, the last time Peter saw Claire, wasn't she in that outfit?  Both times, when he saved her, and when she visited him in his holding cell?

Right, but Matt wasn't in his cop uniform... or was he? I don't remember.

[spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy on February 21, 2007, 04:34:23 AM
I am in the two+ camp, but only because, if - as people seem to think - he used TK drop the taser bullets after he used time stop to halt them, then he either had to use the TK at the same time as the time stop was in effect, or he had to use the TK on them when they were only a foot or so away, which means in just a few milliseconds. Frankly, the bullets didn't move forward at all between the time they halted and the time they dropped, which supports the simultaneous TK and time stop theory.

He just stopped the bullets with TK.  If you look closely, you can clearly see Claude moving.

[/spoiler]

Quote from: The Hitman on February 22, 2007, 05:13:23 AM
Right, but Matt wasn't in his cop uniform... or was he? I don't remember.

Peter's never seen Matt in his cop uniform, and Claire wasn't in her cheerleader uniform when she visited him in his holding cell.

The first time Peter had absorbed Issac's power, he hadn't used it in front of him.

Upon absorbing Claire's healing, she hadn't been healing at the time (though perhaps hers is constantly on in the background).


I'm still interested in seeing what happens when he meets Nikki (I imagine it'll happen soon, when she tries to whack Nathan. I hope she makes the trip to nyc, instead of luring him to Vegas)

Ted is still very much in the picture, and still may yet be the one who goes nuke.

And what power will Linderman have?

Here's another thing I thought of...If Sylar killed/absorbed Pete's power, would he get all the abilities that he's absorbed? And if that happened, it would stave off the loss of life, as Sylar wouldn't have to kill people anymore.

About the dreams:

I've already mentioned this, but the writers have said that the scene WILL happen and that Nathan's refusal to leave is a very important somehow.  Obviously the details will be somewhat different, but the gist of that scene will happen.

I also suspect that they dreams are a result of absorbing either Isaac's power, or that of another Super (possibly Simone's dad)

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 22, 2007, 01:41:33 PM
I also suspect that they dreams are a result of absorbing either Isaac's power, or that of another Super (possibly Simone's dad)

When all of Peter's powers came back at once in episode 14, he had flashbacks to his NYC explosion dream at the same time his eyes went all white like when Isaac paints the future.  So that dream was probably from Isaac's power.

[spoiler]

Quote from: Conduit on February 22, 2007, 08:43:21 AM

Quote from: stumpy on February 21, 2007, 04:34:23 AM
I am in the two+ camp, but only because, if - as people seem to think - he used TK drop the taser bullets after he used time stop to halt them, then he either had to use the TK at the same time as the time stop was in effect, or he had to use the TK on them when they were only a foot or so away, which means in just a few milliseconds. Frankly, the bullets didn't move forward at all between the time they halted and the time they dropped, which supports the simultaneous TK and time stop theory.

He just stopped the bullets with TK.  If you look closely, you can clearly see Claude moving.

Sure, Claude was moving, but he was touching Peter and we know others can be excluded the effect because future Hiro did that for Peter when they met. But other things were time-stopped, including the taser wires extending back from the bullets and there was no motion from the shooters (who were blurred). They even played a slowed version of the sound from the taser (the tk-tk-tk-tk sound becoming tk - tk  -  tk   -    tk), emphasizing the time-coming-to-a-halt effect. Whether he used TK after to drop the bullets, the initial use of Hiro's power is unmistakable.
[/spoiler]

Stumpy:

[spoiler]

QuoteSure, Claude was moving, but he was touching Peter and we know others can be excluded the effect because future Hiro did that for Peter when they met. But other things were time-stopped, including the taser wires extending back from the bullets and there was no motion from the shooters (who were blurred). They even played a slowed version of the sound from the taser (the tk-tk-tk-tk sound becoming tk - tk  -  tk   -    tk), emphasizing the time-coming-to-a-halt effect. Whether he used TK after to drop the bullets, the initial use of Hiro's power is unmistakable.

No, we've NEVER seen anyone be excluded from time stop.  If that were possible, Ando would have been immune to it many times, but Hiro can only effect himself.  Future Hiro did talk to Peter, but Hiro's powers make him immune to time stop (since he otherwise would be stopped too and not know that anything would happen) so Peter absorbed that ability, making him immune to the time stop too.  I'm positive that Peter's time freeze ended the instant he used TK.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Protomorph on February 22, 2007, 12:58:31 PMThe first time Peter had absorbed Issac's power, he hadn't used it in front of him.

True enough, that's why I mentioned him.

Quote from: Protomorph on February 22, 2007, 12:58:31 PMUpon absorbing Claire's healing, she hadn't been healing at the time (though perhaps hers is constantly on in the background).

She had been healing from when Sylar tossed her against the wall seconds before she ran around the corner and into Peter. I don't know if she was fully done regenerating by then or not, but it it wouldn't surprise me if Peter were close enough by then to get the power. Of course, when he had fallen off the building with Sylar, it looked like he didn't start healing again until Claire ran up to him. Then again, it also looked like he was unconscious before she got there, too...

Overall, I'd have to agree that it looks like Peter absorbs powers passively from other specials, whether or not they are using them when he is near. And, I am fine with that. But, we should recognize that Peter has been living in one of the densest urban areas in the country and walking past tens of thousands of people over the years. If the notion that one in one hundred people is one of the specials, he potentially has a lot of powers in him, whether or not he knows what they are or how to use them. Of course, since, at least initially, he must focus on the person from whom he absorbed a power to activate it, he may never figure out what most of them are. It's just lucky that he hasn't absorbed a power that causes passive destruction...

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 22, 2007, 06:47:15 PMStumpy:

QuoteSure, Claude was moving, but he was touching Peter and we know others can be excluded the effect because future Hiro did that for Peter when they met. But other things were time-stopped, including the taser wires extending back from the bullets and there was no motion from the shooters (who were blurred). They even played a slowed version of the sound from the taser (the tk-tk-tk-tk sound becoming tk - tk  -  tk   -    tk), emphasizing the time-coming-to-a-halt effect. Whether he used TK after to drop the bullets, the initial use of Hiro's power is unmistakable.

No, we've NEVER seen anyone be excluded from time stop. If that were possible, Ando would have been immune to it many times, but Hiro can only effect himself.  Future Hiro did talk to Peter, but Hiro's powers make him immune to time stop (since he otherwise would be stopped too and not know that anything would happen) so Peter absorbed that ability, making him immune to the time stop too.

You don't know that we've never seen anyone excluded. There is no way to tell if Peter was excluded from the first one because he had absorbed the power and that passively confers immunity from it or because future Hiro excluded him. We wouldn't expect present-day Hiro to be able to exclude Ando or anyone else because he has so very little control over his power.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 22, 2007, 06:47:15 PMI'm positive that Peter's time freeze ended the instant he used TK.

Your choice. It's certainly possible that, with time proceding normally, Peter's reaction time is good enough to totally stop the bullets without allowing them any forward motion, basically removing their momentum instantly. On the other hand, I don't see any reason to believe the time-stop wasn't at least partially in effect as he started the TK. But, there is no doubt that Peter did use a time-stop power on the rooftop in the last episode, which was my point in that paragraph. But, what Conduit said is also true: Claude was definitely moving while the bullets were time-stopped. So, it seems that he was either excluded/immune somehow or we have to disregard that as a filiming glitch. The latter is possible, but it opens up a ridiculous can of worms applicable to any instance where we see anything happen. I'd say the former is likely, which supports the idea that time-stoppers are not the only ones excludable from a time-stop.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I'm pretty sure Hiro (and thus Peter) can exclude people from the time stop, mainly because of Hope shooting them.  The bullet fired, but then went back into the barrel.  If he had just rewound time, the bullet simply would've gone back, and they still would've been shot.  But if he caused the bullet, and just the bullet, to move back in time, while the gun itself remained in the same time frame, he could conceivably cause the bullet to explode inside the barrel.  Which is what happened.  This incident perfectly illustrates the incredible amount of control Hiro actually has.[/spoiler]

Thought: Hiro's powers involve bending space and time.  According to Einstein's theory of Relativity, guess what else is governed by space-time?  Gravity.  God, he'd be so much more uber.

Very good point, Grem.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on February 20, 2007, 05:44:37 PM
Come to think of it, yes, he did.  She was in the room when he met with Mohinder, and repeated the conversation to HRG.  Good catch!

[spoiler]
Well, if we are to accept that as an explanation, then thats a big plus for the "two powers at once argument". because IIRC the scene was certainly shot to imply he was invisible when he said it.
[/spoiler]

See, when I first heard the evil-sounding voice, I thought of one thing: Sylar.  Since Peter's empathic, it makes sense that he might copy emotions and personality traits of those whose powers he mimics (a later danger when fighting Sylar).  So, if he was using telekinesis for more time than he ever had done before, He might've adopted that demonic tone because of Sylar's innate evil sort of leeching through Peter.  Which might be an interesting theme: is it alright to use these amazing powers this guy has collected if when using it you run the risk of going nuts and trying to hurt people?

Not to poor any water on the two+ theory, which I find compelling, but...

[spoiler]The only time in that scene when I could be sure that Peter was using a supernatural voice was right as he TK-threw Isaac across the room into some canvases. But he was visible at that point because they made a point of showing him turn invisible a minute later when Isaac pointed the gun at him. Of course, I might have missed if Peter used an odd voice later in the scene when he was invisible (he didn't turn visible again until right when Simone started to fall and he caught her). The only thing I heard when invisible Peter was shouting at Isaac was a little echo (and Isaac lives in the sort of loft apartment where that would be common).

Also, this isn't really indicative one way or the other, but it's worth noting invisible Peter didn't use TK or time-stop to save Simone from getting shot.  That could just mean that he was caught off guard or he isn't as instictively fast at defending others as he is defending himself. Or it could mean that certain powers require more concentration to use than others and the invisibility with TK/time-stop is a tougher combo. Or even just that real bullets move much faster than taser bullets (which is definitely true, BTW) and he isn't that skilled yet. Or something else entirely. Anyway, none of those things would mean that he can or cannot use two or more powers at once, but it strikes me as odd that he wouldn't be ready to use either TK or time-stop right away, since Isaac could easily have shot at him by mild luck, just aiming at Peter's voice.[/spoiler]

Hmm... can't remember where I saw this... old TV guide maybe, but didn't it say somewhere that the dream sequence with the Peter going nuclear was going to evolve?  As in people and things in it were going to change?

Was that... [spoiler]Linderman?[/spoiler]

*sees previews for next week* Uh... I guess not.

Another fantastic episode!  I think this weeks and last weeks more than make up for the last couple of episodes.  Also changes the general plot quite drastically.

[spoiler]
I think this quite adequately proves the HRG really does love Claire and I think he really does want to be on the good side, but he's now trapped.  He does have the advantage of being able to replace one trusted confederate, the Hatian, with another, Matt.

Now that the Hatian and Claire are out on their own, they'll be more likely to run into the others.  I can imagine her trying to seek out either her real father or Peter.  Neither is really all that safe, though.

This also confirms that HRG has no powers of his own.  Good to know.

And Hiro's father is part of the organization.  That partially explains why his father tried so hard to get Hiro back in Japan.  He's probably afraid that Hiro is telling the truth about his powers, which puts the two fathers in a similar situation.  Fortunately, Hiro hasn't gotten the organization's attention yet.

Speaking of the organization, it's even more creepy now.  Vivisections?  Yet they actively recruit specials, as well as kill them.  I guess they think they're gods or something.

What I hated: the preview, showing Simone standing up and apparently not bothered by the gunshot at all.  WHAT!  What happened to "someone dies?"  Frankly, if they had to kill off someone, she was an excellent choice, for many reasons.
[/spoiler]

Wow.  That could be the best episode yet.

[spoiler]
I love HRG now.  I forgive him for every bad thing he's done so far.  That last scene was so gut wrenching.  I can't wait to see how his bosses react to his actions.  I'm also scared about how much the Haitian took from his memories.

Speaking of the Haitian, he has an interesting backstory.  Also, very interesting about how he reports to someone else.

Ted Sprague's actor is married to Mrs. Bennet's actress in real life.  Kind of puts that whole scene with him threatening to shoot her in a different light, no?

Claire said in an early episode that her parents told her she was adopted when she was very young.  I suppose she considers 12-13 very young.

It's great to see Claude again.  You can really understand his attitude now.

A thought: if Claire hadn't been saved, would Odessa have been blown up?  Maybe future Hiro's actions simply shifted the explosion to a different city.
[/spoiler]

Another great episode...

[spoiler]
I bet that the bit from the preview with Simone is some sort of dream/vision/craziness.  

What happened to Wireless?  Wasn't she helping Nuclear man and Matt?  So Claire and the Haitian (who apparently faked being mute for 14 years, now that's commitment) are on the run together.  If he's going to be on the show regularly now, the Haitian's going to have to get a name and more of a personality in a hurry.

I hope Matt is going to work with Claire's father now; it gives him more direction than otherwise.  

[/spoiler]

Ah yes, Wireless.  Well, let's just say the comics and the series are starting to effect each other more.  In other words, she left in the comics to do something related.  I'll leave you to read it for yourself.

The series writers are also writing the comics, and they have verified that the events in the comics do impact the series.

[spoiler]

Quote from: Talavar on February 26, 2007, 07:32:15 PM
What happened to Wireless?  Wasn't she helping Nuclear man and Matt?

According to last week's comic, she thought that their approach was wrong and went off by herself to track down HRG's boss.  She followed a string of encrypted emails to a casino in Las Vegas...

EDIT: Ninja'd by catwhowalksbyhimself
[/spoiler]

Im going to agree with Talavar.........
[spoiler]
The Simone thing is seen through Isaac and knowing he just killed her.....he could be seeing
halucinations through stress.....anxiety....and grief![/spoiler]

Well...

[spoiler]
Simone's father possibly had powers... athough, I think the writers know enough not to have her develop powers. If she does does, my money's on impervious to things (within reason), like Luke Cage.
[/spoiler]

As for this episode...

[spoiler]
Wow. Just... just wow. Ted was so bad at being the bad guy in this, it was almost funny. Favorite line: "I'm not gonna nuke their dog! I'm not fonna hurt... Mr... Muggles...? Guy's got more pictures of his dog than his family." I was suprised to see Mr. Nakamura's involvement. Is he HRG's boss's boss? And finally, Matt has a real focus now. Good.
[/spoiler]

Regarding Mr. Linderman, who has been mentioned a lot throughout the series but never actually shown, apparently he's going to be played by

[spoiler]Malcolm McDowell.

Good choice, in my opinion.[/spoiler]

Hey guys,

[spoiler]If you're thinking Simone's livelihood some sort of product of Isaac seeing things, then what does that say of HRG seeing the same thing with him?  I mean, that was who was with him when he stumbled back...[/spoiler]

And can the comics be found all online?

The comics can ONLY be found online.  The show does advertise them.

Anywhere, they're at the official site, nbc.com/heroes

You know what...

[spoiler]Didn't they say Claude was hiding someone with abilities?  Isn't that why HRG tried to kill him?  I wonder who is this person?  Have we seen them?  If we haven't will they show up later?

Also, you did notice where HRG and Mr. Nakamura met right?  It makes you wonder exactly how much did Simone and her dad knew about what's going on?[/spoiler]

Hey, I was just wondering if I could get a favor from my fellow Heroes fanatics.  Since I am cursed with this abysmal dial-up connection, and those comics are way too big for me, could somebody summarize them?  Either here or through PM would be lovely.

Thoughts: [spoiler]Ok, so who's the boss, Takei or Linderman?  What's their relationship, and how much do they know about each other?  How much does Takei know about Hiro's powers?
Who was the Special Claude was hiding when he was ordered killed?
Who is HRG's new partner?  How much did Degauss mindwipe?[/spoiler]

I had a bunch of other stuff, but I'm too tired to recollect it all from my previous conversation.

By the way, anyone who was impressed that Degauss was able to keep hidden the fact that he was mute for 14 years should do well to remember that he successfully kept Mrs. Bennet from discovering HRG's real life for the same amount of time.  Any he undoubtedly slipped up far less than HRG did.

Good episode.   :)

[spoiler]
It looks like HRG's new partner is Matt. I don't know who the new girl from the lab is or what her power is.

I felt pretty good about HRG after that episode. I may not think much of his methods, but at least he really was trying to take care of Claire and Sandra, at risk of his own life. Also, we now at least know that, if HRG has any powers, he certainly pretends not to (which would be totally believable, given the vivisections and all).

I don't really buy that HRG's boss has no suspicions about him. I guess we'll deal with whatever double-cross that leads to when we get to it. It at least seems like HRG's organization doesn't know about all the specials. They didn't seem to know about Peter (or at least they didn't bag and tag him when they had the chance). They might not know about Hiro.

Which makes me wonder if Sulu really knows about Hiro? I am more and more curious why he would let his son wander around in the US without supervision knowing that his organization is tracking specials and probably knowing that some psycho is trying to kill them. Moreover, if he believes Hiro's story, then Hiro zeroing in on an impending nuclear incident would evoke some fatherly concern, I would think. Of course, it's possible there are other surprises in that regard. For instance, maybe Ando has secretly been Sulu's eyes and ears.

It will be interesting to see what we learn about the Haitian. Does he know much about the locations of the other specials? He mentioned having gotten orders from a higher boss. Do we have any bets on who that might be? A random guess is Sulu or Linderman at this point, but this plot isn't really fleshed out until we have some other higher-level good guy. It seems like the Haitian can suppress Sylar's powers. Can he suppress Peter's? Has Peter been near him?
[/spoiler]

As with everyone i absolutely loved this episode.  I only had one problem with it.

[spoiler]Up to now, whenever the Hatian was around folks couldn't use their powers (except Nathan).  At a moment in the show when they needed that ability more than anything, they apparently didn't even consider it.

So the Hatian is NOT the guy who prevents power use and if it is HRG maybe, that is what he was attempting to do in the house but failed ... or they neglected it for plot movement[/spoiler]

At any rate.  This was the best show yet.

[spoiler]KB, I have a guess or two. This is just speculation, of course, since we really haven't been given much that's definitive about the Haitian's powers.

Maybe:

• The Haitian can only nullify active powers and not passive ones. For example, Eden's dominance, Matt's mind-reading, or Sylar's TK, but not passive one's like Claire's regeneration or Ted's radioactivity. Of course, Ted can now control his power to some degree, but it still looks like it is on "by default" and he has to concentrate to keep it off.
• The Haitian's power has limits. For instance, by trying really hard, Matt was able to get a glimmer from HRG when he and the fed were sitting outside Primatech (the nosebleed scene). Maybe nullifying Ted's ability is beyond his power.

I still like the idea that HRG has a power. Obviously, there is nothing to lead to a firm conclusion one way or the other at this point, but I think it would be cool nonetheless. On top of which, it seems like he was being a little overly emphatic with his "one of

them" references to the specials, especially many years after he knew Claire might be one and even presently, when he is well-aware that she is one. One way or the other, it seems like an act/cover. At least it's not a father's natural reaction to people who are like his daughter.

BTW, on another topic, the scene where Claire picks out HRG's glasses (HRG's HRG) is touching: we know him as HRG because that's the look that reminded Claire he was her father. Of course, I don't know many people who bring home eight pairs of glasses to try out new frames, but we can let that slide...

Overall, my only problem with this episode was the scene where Ted goes out of control at Rancho Bennet. It was just an inconsistent portrayal of his powers. He was phyisically blowing people away from him, catching stuff on fire from yards away, etc. On top of that, if his powers are supposed to basically be radiation-based (e.g. some sort of fission, as one might detect on a Geiger counter), then everyone in that house (besides Claire) should be really sick in very soon.

(Meanwhile, keeping that kind of radioactive activity a secret is a tall order. The DoE/NRC/DHS/whoever isn't going to accept that this was some random domestic accident like a gas explosion...)
[/spoiler][/list]

Unless the whole town is mindwiped.

[spoiler]

Quote from: Kitt Basher on February 27, 2007, 03:55:39 AM
Up to now, whenever the Hatian was around folks couldn't use their powers (except Nathan).  At a moment in the show when they needed that ability more than anything, they apparently didn't even consider it.

Maybe he can only block mental powers.
[/spoiler]

awesome episode,i like the time spent on one story line. [spoiler]great to see the hatian take claire into hiding, i wonder about matt though i am hoping he gets a fair deal,without the hatian who is going to erase his mind or will they threaten him to work with HRG(they dont know he is ok with hrg),anyway might be the best episode yet[/spoiler]

[spoiler]ummm......HRG has no powers. He works for an organization that
either disposes of or tracks carefully specials.  I doubt he would have powers thats like
a Lion working with a Lion Poacher.

QuoteIt looks like HRG's new partner is Matt. I don't know who the new girl from the lab is or what her power is.

No...it isn't. The boss did say that he had promise....but in the preview for the next episode..... It shows the Lab Girl asking HRG "Ok...so what's the mission?"

I am agreeing with Conduit in that the Haitian has some....power dampening ability. I am thinking like making their memory fuzzy....like they know they have an ability but the body doesnt know how to use it.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: starlock on February 27, 2007, 05:31:55 AMi wonder about matt though i am hoping he gets a fair deal,without the hatian who is going to erase his mind or will they threaten him to work with HRG(they dont know he is ok with hrg)

Good point. Maybe HRG doesn't want to have his bosses know that Matt and he teamed up to deal with Ted, lest the full story comes out, including that he knew about Claire. Then again, he could just tell them that, when Ted started going Chernobyl, it was pretty easy to convince Matt that someone needs to be keeping an eye on people like Ted.

Of course, HRG's boss seemed to have no concern that they wouldn't get Matt to cooperate. Since Matt's ability is one of the best gather enough info to blow the lid off their whole operation, they must have some pretty strong hold on him.

Also, HRG was emphatic to the Haitian that he "go deep" in erasing HRG's knowledge of things that might lead them to Claire. I wonder if HRG's bosses have some other means of psychic interrogation or if he was concerned with more mundane methods? Of course, I don't really know what HRG might know that would lead anyone to Claire, unless he has a list of the Haitian's contacts, hideouts, etc.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Nymph on February 27, 2007, 05:59:20 AMummm......HRG has no powers. He works for an organization that
either disposes of or tracks carefully specials.  I doubt he would have powers thats like
a Lion working with a Lion Poacher.

Maybe, but there is no doubt that the organization does employ people with powers (Eden, the Haitian, etc.). We don't know either way about HRG. Meanwhile, some say, "keep your friends close and your enemies closer." If HRG has powers (which I am not claiming to know), he might be thinking that he is safest working from within, sort of the eye of the hurricane.

Quote from: Nymph on February 27, 2007, 05:59:20 AM

QuoteIt looks like HRG's new partner is Matt. I don't know who the new girl from the lab is or what her power is.

No...it isn't. The boss did say that he had promise....but in the preview for the next episode..... It shows the Lab Girl asking HRG "Ok...so what's the mission?"

Hmm. The in-lab conversation between HRG and his boss makes a strong implication that HRG's boss thinks Matt would be a great partner for HRG. Maybe not immediately, but that was still the gist. I agree that he also makes it clear that the lab girl is going to be working with HRG on whatever cleanup operation is in the offing. Since HRG seems to be the director at least for the Odessa operation, it seems like he works with multiple people. Just like he worked with both the Haitian and Eden earlier.

But, I admit I don't usually even watch the previews. Their main purpose is to titillate and I find that they tend to have too many misleading clues.
[/spoiler]

About Matt, keep in mind:

[spoiler]
That the organization seems to have no problems with recruiting specials willingly.  I doubt they'd have a problem with Matt's helping HRG, or even the bulk of what really happened.  That would tell them that Matt would be willing to help them, and if he turns against them, they can have him killed or whatever.  Seeing how useful his powers are, it's in their best interest to have him join them, if he's willing.

They also indicated that the Hatian was HRG's partner and that Matt would make a good replacement.

Keep in mind, that HRG said that he needed someone he could trust and that he could trust Matt.  It seems that most of HRG's other friends within the organization that he could trust are dead or on the run (Hatian, Eden, Claire's fake dad) so he needs someone else, and Matt is it.  Plus, it would give Matt more of a purpose other than running around always getting into more trouble.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: Gremlin on February 22, 2007, 08:36:58 PM
[spoiler]I'm pretty sure Hiro (and thus Peter) can exclude people from the time stop, mainly because of Hope shooting them.  The bullet fired, but then went back into the barrel.  If he had just rewound time, the bullet simply would've gone back, and they still would've been shot.  But if he caused the bullet, and just the bullet, to move back in time, while the gun itself remained in the same time frame, he could conceivably cause the bullet to explode inside the barrel.  Which is what happened.  This incident perfectly illustrates the incredible amount of control Hiro actually has.[/spoiler]

Thought: Hiro's powers involve bending space and time.  According to Einstein's theory of Relativity, guess what else is governed by space-time?  Gravity.  God, he'd be so much more uber.

Wow......good point on the gravity.  I've kind of sensed for awhile now that Hiro and Peter are really the most potentially powerful metahumans on the show.  And if Hiro could master gravity...Whoah!  Look out!

Uhmmm...so, any theories as to why Hiro "needs" the ancient katana for his powers to work?  Do you think it might be a mental block.  So far, most of the powers seem to be genetically based NOT mystical/magical.  I'm not sure why a sword would factor into Hiro's powers in a practical sense.

Anybody notice in the flashback scene with Claude on the bridge, it looked like the gun went off by itself? 2 times in fact. HRG looked surprised himself.

Hiro needing the sword is totally a mental block, as evidenced by him subconsciously reversing time to save his and Ando's lives in the episode a week ago.

As to the portrayal of Ted, the Radioactive man, maybe he generates more than one type of radiation.  Microwaves, for instance, shouldn't have any trouble lighting things on fire.  As to people getting knocked away, maybe they were recoiling from the heat produced, rather than being physically knocked away?

HRG's organization employs Specials apparently willingly, though "Work for us or we shoot you" is probably pretty convincing too.  I still lean against HRG having powers; I mean, a couple of main characters have to not have powers, right?

Quote from: thanoson on February 27, 2007, 08:45:06 AM
Anybody notice in the flashback scene with Claude on the bridge, it looked like the gun went off by itself? 2 times in fact. HRG looked surprised himself.

I noticed that, didn't know what to make of it but I noticed it.

-MJB

Yeah, same here, not quite sure what was up with it....could it be that our inivisible friend has....other abilities?

[spoiler]I took that as HRG's surprise at what he'd done. 

Was this the first time he'd shot anyone?  And Claude was someone he'd worked with for years.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]The first shot looked very much like HRG hadn't planned it and he was shocked. I couldn't tell if it was just that he pulled the trigger by accident (he hadn't meant to yet) and he was surprised by that and by that it hit his friend or if something else was at play. The second shot looked a little odd, too, but it's worth noting that HRG had deliberately raised the gun in a two handed grip and taken aim. But, after that, he fired several more times and they looked deliberate, though we only saw Claude react as though he was hit by the first two shots. When I first watched the scene, I thought that something unusual had triggered the initial shots and that, after that, HRG was playing along because he knew they were being watched. But, there was no follow up on the scene, so I suppose we'll have to wait and see. I can only imagine that the writers will come back to that part of the story to tell us how Claude really got away.

I can say this much, in retrospect, it seems odd to me that HRG would have assumed Claude was really dead. He never confirmed the kill, never found the body or heard/saw an impact in the gorge below the bridge, etc. Maybe HRG told his superiors the job was done when he knew Claude might be alive...


BTW, when Ted was going bazonkers, Matt approached him and was blown all the way across the room. It's no big deal; just an odd thing to portray nuclear effects like conventional chemical explosions.[/spoiler]


BTW, I know it seems like anyone reading the thread must have already caught up with the most current episode, but that's not always the case. We should try and use the spoiler tags (http://home.graffiti.net/stumpyanker:graffiti.net/images/BBSpoilerTagButton-shrunk.gif), even if it means typing out [spoiler] [/spoiler] when the button isn't available.

Here's my thoughts so far

[spoiler] This epside was not only great but wow the ending moved me. Now here's some theories:

1) The Petrelly senior killed himself. Did some sort of powers make his life unbearable perhaps?

2) It is possible that they where inhibbiting peoples powers through the implant they have been passing out. This would mean that some sort of a device or heck, even a satelite feed needs to be aranged to do so.

3) Hiro's dad is probably a liason between the american initiative and a larger japanese one. It would be cool if the Japanese initiative is boss and the whole organization is private. That would explain everyone speaking japanese.

4) Could the invisible man be hiding the flying man? He's made it to quite some prominence, is powerful in the same city that the invisible man lives in and could easily save somebody falling off a bridge.

5) The fact that they let you actually download and save the comics is wicked progressive of them. I cant wait to get fired tomorrow for bringing them to work on a cd. [/spoiler]

Late to the party -

I just started watching this on line, and I probably won't be in here very much until I'm caught up because of the spoilers, but so far I'm loving this show.

The last scene in episode three (Claire wakes up on an autopsy table wit her organs in a bowl next to her): hilarious!

Welcome to the frenzy that is the Heroes thread!  :lol:

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on March 01, 2007, 04:55:12 AMThe last scene in episode three (Claire wakes up on an autopsy table wit her organs in a bowl next to her): hilarious!

:D  I think the bowls just had that some blood and that root that killed her, but it was pretty cool to see her wake up all flayed open. When I saw that, two thoughts flashed through my head: 1) This is Vesalius' wet dream and 2) Didn't this happen to Dr. Zoidberg in an episode of Futurama?  :P

Oooo - bonus points to Stumpy for the Vesalius refence!!

[spoiler]I wonder if Hiro's dad had anything to do with inhibiting his powers.  When he saved himself from Vegas lady, he seemed more powerful than ever... perhaps Dad gave him a power upgrade instead?  Weird concidence if not.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I think that's more of a case of 'necessity is the mother of invention,' as I don't think his father knows of his powers yet.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Yeah he might not know that Hiro is a... special.  (Is that the show's vernacular?)  But he seems like a powerful man... and if Ando is reporting to him (which somebody suggested as a possibility) he would know... I just wonder if the power inhibition, the injections, Hiro's father being big in the organization, and Hiro's temporary loss of power / sudden surge are related somehow.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Revenant on March 01, 2007, 01:14:33 PM
Yeah he might not know that Hiro is a... special.  (Is that the show's vernacular?)

The show has no vernacular.  You can call them whatever you want.
[/spoiler]

Is reversing a couple of seconds of time really more powerful than going forward a month in time and travelling several thousand miles of space instantly?  And then reversing that?  I don't think so.

I would agree with the "act of desperation" diagnosis of that scene.

[spoiler]It was an interesting trick to reverse time for only a single object, the bullet. The unescapable reality is that if Hiro ever gets consistent control over his power and assuming his enemies don't have some sort of immunity from it, he is nearly unbeatable. He has shown the power can be used nearly instantly and it doesn't seem to exhaust him to use it. Unless he is taken totally by surprise, he doesn't need any other power.

Regarding Sulu's knowledge of Hiro's powers: Though the show didn't show the whole conversation, it kinda seemed like Hiro explained to his dad why he was in the States. I suppose it's possible he never mentioned his powers, although it's hard to imagine he could justify his role in the "mission" without them. It really seems to me that Sulu should know that Hiro has powers, both because of that conversation and because we now know he is some sort of muckety muck in HRG's organization, which seems to have data on these things. IMO, if Hiro told him that he has a power and Sulu didn't believe him, it would be an odd thing for a father to leave his son to wander around in a foriegn country when he is insane and out to steal valuable museum artifacts.

BTW, does anyone think that Mongul (which is what I am calling HRG's boss until we get a name for him) actually believed HRG about the Haitian being the turncoat? It seems like HRG had outed the Haitian earlier in some unshown scene, which adds consistency to his story, but Mongul seemed to be dropping hints about "trust" and so on in the post-Ted scene back at Primatech.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I guess one thing this show goes with is that thinking has everything to do with language....Have Jean Grey or Prof. X ever been unable to read someone's mind because of language barriers?  HRG thinking in Japanese to prevent his thoughts from being read and it working just struck me as odd.  Wasn't it Assimov who wrote that thought and language are different and therefore one has nothing to do with the other?  Maybe this guy is just a low level telepath in Heroes.[/spoiler]

Actually......

[spoiler]In both modern literary and psychological fields, the theory that holds greatest sway is that language must exist for there to be thought, at least anything more advanced than emotion and desire, e.g: hungry, thirsty, tired.  The human quality of self-awareness seems to be inextricably connected to language, so I would say it is entirely probable that a telepath would be unable to read the mind of someone who is 'thinking in Japanese,' assuming that it was only 'surface telepathy,' only able to pick up on conscious thought.[/spoiler]

Quote from: Talavar on March 01, 2007, 02:52:49 PM
Is reversing a couple of seconds of time really more powerful than going forward a month in time and travelling several thousand miles of space instantly?  And then reversing that?  I don't think so.

[spoiler]This was the first time Hiro used his power to reverse time on one specific object /area.  He would have normally stopped time or slowed it enough to escape being shot. 

Here, he must have warped time in a twofold manner, because the woman got tackled after the bullet went back into the gun.  Thus for her time was reversed, but for the game agent, time must have continued normally.  It was something new and IMO more potent than what he'd done before. 

I agree that time and space travel in tandem (like he did to arrive in NYC) would be no easy feat, but was akin to leaping blindly, like Nightcrawler teleporting to somewhere he hadn't previously been.  Here was a more precise, efficient use of the power.  And Hiro doesn't even know that he did it, since his eyes were closed.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: thalaw2 on March 01, 2007, 04:31:17 PMI guess one thing this show goes with is that thinking has everything to do with language....Have Jean Grey or Prof. X ever been unable to read someone's mind because of language barriers?  HRG thinking in Japanese to prevent his thoughts from being read and it working just struck me as odd.  Wasn't it Assimov who wrote that thought and language are different and therefore one has nothing to do with the other?  Maybe this guy is just a low level telepath in Heroes.

Good point.

While some relationship between thought and language is supported, I don't buy into the stricter thought-is-language idea either. It still holds some cache in literary fields, but there isn't really agreement about it in the cognitive sciences. (I am not claiming to be a Pinkerist, but theories like SWH aren't very compelling.) Either way, it is a departure from most comic book or sci-fi depictions of telepathy, where one of it's most common uses is for translation among people who don't speak the same language.

It may be possible, though, that the show is thinking about Matt's power in a particular way. E.g., it supposes that there is a part of the brain that does language (gets thoughts ready for communication) and that's the part that Matt latches on to. Maybe at some point he will get better at it and be able to grab thoughts earlier in the process.

It will be interesting to see if this comes into play when he meets Hiro. Hiro is certainly learning a lot of English, but it isn't his natural language yet. It seems like he would have to deliberately think in it to communicate with Matt if the show sticks to this view.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Actually, I buy the "thinking in Japanese" completely.  Current learning theory includes the idea that silent reading, for example, is a type of auditory learning.... when you read silently, you are reading it "aloud" in your head.  It's really common sense - that's why reading something aloud or moving your lips when you read actually helps you read.  It stands to reason that you are thinking in your target language. 

The fact that Heroes contradicts Professor X hardly makes it scientifically valid.   ;)

Quote from: stumpy on March 01, 2007, 05:30:33 PM
[spoiler]

Quote from: thalaw2 on March 01, 2007, 04:31:17 PMI guess one thing this show goes with is that thinking has everything to do with language....Have Jean Grey or Prof. X ever been unable to read someone's mind because of language barriers?  HRG thinking in Japanese to prevent his thoughts from being read and it working just struck me as odd.  Wasn't it Assimov who wrote that thought and language are different and therefore one has nothing to do with the other?  Maybe this guy is just a low level telepath in Heroes.

Good point.

While some relationship between thought and language is supported, I don't buy into the stricter thought-is-language idea either. It still holds some cache in literary fields, but there isn't really agreement about it in the cognitive sciences. (I am not claiming to be a Pinkerist, but theories like SWH aren't very compelling.) Either way, it is a departure from most comic book or sci-fi depictions of telepathy, where one of it's most common uses is for translation among people who don't speak the same language.

It may be possible, though, that the show is thinking about Matt's power in a particular way. E.g., it supposes that there is a part of the brain that does language (gets thoughts ready for communication) and that's the part that Matt latches on to. Maybe at some point he will get better at it and be able to grab thoughts earlier in the process.

It will be interesting to see if this comes into play when he meets Hiro. Hiro is certainly learning a lot of English, but it isn't his natural language yet. It seems like he would have to deliberately think in it to communicate with Matt if the show sticks to this view.[/spoiler]

Quote from: Bujin on March 01, 2007, 06:09:35 PMActually, I buy the "thinking in Japanese" completely.  Current learning theory includes the idea that silent reading, for example, is a type of auditory learning.... when you read silently, you are reading it "aloud" in your head.  It's really common sense - that's why reading something aloud or moving your lips when you read actually helps you read.  It stands to reason that you are thinking in your target language. 

The last sentence doesn't follow from the ones that precede it. Of course it's common sense that communication (oral or written) uses language, no one is arguing against that. That idea words written in a given language "sound" like that language in your head is hardly surprising. But, that doesn't support the notion that all thinking takes place as internal spoken language.

I wish I had my theories together so I could do this right, but I have to go to work soon..so here goes.  It was once thought that people speaking different languages also thought differently...I think it was something about proving that Native Americans couldn't have the same dreams because they speak different languages.  It was found that language had nothing to do with what people were capable of thinking.

Modern language theory teaches that all grammar really is is a way for people to understand each other..other than that it doesn't exist despite having so man annoying rules.  Telepathy should be able to take advantage of this and work as a universal translator or maybe thats where we cross into empathy, but yes it would be good to see what happens when Matt meets Hiro.

Also,
[spoiler]  It seemed that Claire and HRG were able to throw their thoughts at Matt when they wanted to communicate with him.  If Matt was picking up thoughts then why wasn't getting them from the mother and son? [/spoiler]

Anyway, I'm so happy that they haven't started dubbing this show in China, only subtitles...which makes it hard to read the Japanese translations.

My opinions on Matt -

[spoiler]1) He's not a true telepath as such, as he explained to his wife. He can't pick up pictures and emotions and stuff, but he picks up word-thoughts. Basically, the words people don't say, but think. It's like the thoughts hes picking up are conversations...I'm not sure I'm explaining myself well here :huh:

2) As such, if HRG thought in Japanese...well, it would be like a Japanese person thinking, or Indian, or whatever. He'd be unable to understand it, because he can't speak Indian or Japanese etc. HRG would know this from studying Matt and how his ability works. Why he chose Japanese over any other number of languages confuses me.

3) How did Matt know it was Japanese anyway?! O_o[/spoiler]

Opinions on language thoughts (best title I could think of) -

[spoiler]Well, think about it. You can read someones mind. Not only do you receive their word-thoughts and picture-thoughts, you receive the means to understand that, since you're receiving everything that person knows. Think of it like an encyclopedia in a different language with a translation in the back. Of course, that would take some looking, and maybe some time, depending on the level of telepathy. Depending on what you choose to store (this is a high level telepath I'm talking about here. Heck, anything beyond picking up emotions and words is high level telepath to me...the mind is a very very complicated thing, just see how much information you can store in a picture in your mind and compare that to a picture on a computer), you could learn the language for just the time you're meeting them or indefinitely. This goes for all sorts of skills, such as mechanics, etc. The telepath doesn't need to understand it - the mechanic they're leeching it off does, as he has the instruction manual in his head :)[/spoiler]

General stuffage on the show -

[spoiler]How obvious was the advert at the end of the shootout scene..."Look Ando! Car not even scratched!" Uh...huh :huh:

Does anyone else not find it odd that the big boss of an organization formed to find and eliminate dangerous and uncontrollable 'enhanced' people decides to shoot anyone with a gun while in the same room as not just one, but four? When they're all obviously distressed, nervous and on edge? I mean, does he not remember what happened with Claires mum? In any case, since it was an accident as such, he should have shot Ted in the head to disable him, he wasn't so 'nuclear' at that point, and was clearly showing signs of being the most dangerous at that point.

The whole organization seems a bit whacked, they recruit some heroes but not others? And examine all the heroes whether they're recruited or not, and then puts them back into societal circulation?! Did no-one at this place see the problem with putting someone who can wipe minds, can read minds, radiates something (I don't buy its radiation with the whole house scene, they should all have no teeth by next episode -_-) and the rest back onto the streets with the rest of the population? I mean, isn't the organization meant to be keeping the public safe yet unaware? And if so...what happened to the FBI lady who worked with Matt? Mindwipe?

Speaking of working with the 'enhanced'...What sort of protection do they have against them? I mean, seriously...The Haitian could have been wiping minds right left and centre and noone would have been the wiser. For all we know, he did. Claude got away with it, right?

Speaking of Mr Newclear...The whole grave scene where all the grass died? Nuh uh. Not in a month of sundays, I don't care HOW much radiation hes pouring out, the grass wouldn't die that fast. It mustn't be just radiation, it must be some sort of energy transferrance...I don't know  :banghead:

There seems to be a bit of a...discrepency between the comics and the show. In the comic, it shows HRG as immediately developing protective instincts to Claire, whereas in the show its quite plain he does not want a child until its forced upon him

And finally Mr HRG himself...dammit, he had to go and redeem himself. Now there's only a few guys left I can seriously dislike for their personalities ;) I'm also in the camp that he has a power, which is what we thought was the Haitians power - power dampening. However, I believe its just getting started and he doesn't know he has it, and neither does anyone else. Then again, the whole power dampening thing only seemed to work with mental powers, and he put Sylar to sleep, not dampened his powers[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Sevenforce on March 02, 2007, 04:11:20 PM
I'm also in the camp that he has a power, which is what we thought was the Haitians power - power dampening. However, I believe its just getting started and he doesn't know he has it, and neither does anyone else. Then again, the whole power dampening thing only seemed to work with mental powers, and he put Sylar to sleep, not dampened his powers.

If he could dampen powers, why didn't he prevent Matt from reading his mind in this episode?  You can't argue that he didn't have that much control at that point because someone dampened Matt's powers on many previous occasions.  Not to mention the way the show basically made it obvious that it was the Haitian who was doing it.  HRG said in his kidnapping scene with Matt that he couldn't read his mind while his 'friend' was there (the Haitian was the only other person in the room).  In every scene where Matt's powers have been blocked, there's been a cut away to the Haitian.
[/spoiler]

I'll just say again - there is more than one type of radiation.  Hell, light is a form of radiation.  Who says everything Ted puts out is at the wavelengths that cause long-term radiation poisoning, and not faster responses like burns?

[spoiler]

Quotehe should have shot Ted in the head to disable him, he wasn't so 'nuclear' at that point, and was clearly showing signs of being the most dangerous at that point.

Umm. . . they clearly indicate that shooting him is what triggers him to go nuclear.  Shooting him in the head would likely cause an immediate nuclear explosion.  Bad idea.
[/spoiler]

Friends, I come from the future, or at least Canada, bearing news of tonight's Heroes!  Do you dare look?

[spoiler]
We have Ando's heroic re-appearance, to help Hiro achieve his magic-feather sword.  I dont' know about the rest of you, but this seemed a bit suspicious of Ando on his own.  Perhaps he's actually working for Hiro's father, as some have theorized?  Hiro also takes Ando with him in a time/space jump, from present day Las Vegas to post-apocalyptic New York!  Coolio, though it's a bit of a downer, since Hiro gets disheartened again.

Claire tries to ditch the Haitian and go see Peter Petrelli, only to run into Peter's mother who knows about Claire already, and the Haitian!  The plot thickens....

Matt does some minor work for Eric Roberts, and is seen only briefly!

New Special woman appears with illusion powers (at least I think they were illusion, rather than shape-shifting), and uses them to get Isaac off the hook for Simone's murder (who is indeed dead, by the way).  Of Isaac/Peter, it's Isaac who's the big baby, and blames Peter for Simone's death.  Way to take responsibility Isaac!

The New Special woman also uses her illusion powers to get HRG into hot water with Eric Roberts!  She's a jerk!

Mohinder pulls a fast one on Sylar!  Finally, he can lose the title of dumbest-smart person.  Sylar unfortunately pulls a reverse fast one, and Mohinder's life hangs, quite literally, in the balance of...

A Peter/Sylar showdown!  Bum bum bum

[/spoiler]

Sounds like this episode will be everything I was hoping for.

Some quick thoughts:

[spoiler]
So Nathan's really been on the good side secretly all along.

How much does his mother really know?  More than she's pretending, that's for sure.  And how does she know the Hatian?

I hope HRG gets out of this somehow.  He's now turned fully against the Company.

Mr. Linderman's scene seems to enforce the theory that he's behind the Company.  I am definitely thinking that this is the case.

Niki's learning to snatch control from Jessica, like Jessica used to do to her.  Good.

Peter vs. Sylar round one.  Did they have to end it there?  Now I have to wait another 2 months!

I'm definitely interesting in Hiro's future storyline.  I also happen to know that a future Matt will be one of the main villains in this timeline.
[/spoiler]

I'm not sure how I feel about this episode.  It mainly set up cliff hangers for the last act of the season.  At the same time, it had some really cool, enjoyable moments and some huge revelations.

[spoiler]
Glad to see Mohinder finally catch on.  That whole torture sequence was great.  And it was so creepy when Sylar escaped.

It's great to see Ando back.  Although as great as it was to see Hiro finally get the sword, was anyone else screaming at Hiro to just grab the sword and stop time?  The security guys probably wouldn't have found it threatening enough to shoot at Hiro if he simply put his hands on the sword.  But the ending completely made up for all of that.  Even though I kind of knew it was coming (if not this episode, then the one after), it's still too awesome for words.

Linderman completely exceeded my expectations.  And my expectations were pretty darn high.  I love when Nathan pulled the gun on him and he said, "Now you can't have any chicken pot pie."  I love the whole powerful villain pretending to be a nice old guy thing.

Peter: guess we now know how Peter gets his scar.  He's going to look wierd without his bangs, though.  I can't wait for the Peter/Sylar smackdown in a few weeks.
[/spoiler]

How do you figure that last part Cat?

Enjoyed this epi.

A couple thoughts:
[spoiler]
Even if Sylar gets away from Peter, he has still seen the list and will remember it. So that part of the storyline is done. I would also argue that, with his algorithmic ability to figure out "how things work" he could probably come up with the program that generates the list. That would be too much advantage, IMO, for the plot, but I would believe it.

Anyone else wondering why Sylar didn't notice anything odd in Mohinder's heart rate when he gave him the mickey? aybe he doesn't have fine control of it yet, but its original owner used people's heart rates as a sort of lie detector.

BTW, as psyched as I am for the Sylar v. Peter smackdown, this intial encounter is a done deal: Peter finds the advantage, starts kicking Sylar's butt, and then Sylar flees (or possibly is KOed but isn't really dead). Why? If there are still five or six episides left to the season, it's too soon for this to be resolved.

The interesting part of the encounter, to me, is that Peter, at least in theory, gets all of Sylar's powers now. It may take a while to control them, but he should get them. Of course, that could play into the battle scene, since the hearing is a major distraction, at first. The question is: is the psychosis part of the bargain?

BTW, unless the TK works via line-of-sight, either Sylar or Peter can take someone down pretty easily. It doesn't take much to close off or lock open the aortic valves, which spells heart attack in short order. Also, pinching off the blood supply to the brain is also a knockout punch. Of course, Sylar may need to keep Peter alive to steal his power (since we don't know exactly how that works yet), but if he wanted to kill someone, a TK thrust to the brain will do.

How did Claire get to New York so fast? If she used a credit card to buy a ticket, then HRG's company knows where she is. Of course, the Haitian could have gotten her a credit card under the same alias as her passport, but that doesn't seem a likely action for someone trying to keep a teenager nearby and low profile.

So, the lab girl is an illusionist. And, she is evil. It's worth noting that she effectively has Claude's power. BTW, HRG should have had a clue something was up. The ringtone when the faux Mrs. HRG said the kennel was calling wasn't the doggy ringtone from before. And, anyway, he should have known that Mongul would do some additional checking up on him.

I agree totally with Conduit about Hiro's scene: I was screaming, "Just grab the sword, freeze time, and walk out!" But things turned out okay. I am glad Ando is back, though this plays into my speculation that he is working for someone (possibly Sulu) to keep an eye on Hiro.
[/spoiler]

Linderman = Malcolm McDowell = OMG, how can that not be cool.  McDowell is simply one of the best villain characters out there.  He's also one of my favorite actors.

Am I the only one who thinks that the "sides" are going to majorily shift again in the next few episodes?

If Peter has Claire's powers, he shouldn't have a scar, should he?

The one storyline I really don't care about is Nikki\Jessica. Ali Larter is fairly hot and a good actress, but the whole plot stinks, and we really don't have any reason to really care about DL and Micah at all. I've got a great way to end the whole Nikki\Jessica thing if I was the writer, but I'm hoping that when its over, Jessica is dead and Nikki has her powers (ie, strength and fighting skills).

[spoiler]I don't want Sylar to escape. He's a whackjob and there's nothing you can really do with him beyond him running around killing other people with powers. The only way I'd want him to stick around is if they pull a major swerve with him killing Ted, thus being the one who blows up and destroys New York instead of Ted or Peter.

And I wish they'd give the Haitian a name, because I'm kinda sick of him being referred to as `Degauss' or `The Haitian', and he's important enough to the storyline for him to actually have a name.[/spoiler]

Mr H., I think that sort of shake-up will be part of the story.
[spoiler]We already have a fair amount of side-switching, what with Niksica's back-and-forth, Isaac and possibly Matt being compromised, HRG and the Haitian turning coat, and even Nathan secretly being a semi-good guy all this time and now, apparently, deciding to give the dark side a real try.

Also, since it's clear that HRG's (former) company has no problem employing specials to do its work, there is no telling how many of them it may have on the payroll. There's plenty of potential there for alignment switches.

BTW, how is Nathan going to square his apparent good health with the fact that his FBI contacts have assumed room temperature? Will he be a double (or is it triple) agent, pretending to still be working for the feds while actually feeding them false info from Chef Linderman.
[/spoiler]

Also, GM, some possibilities relating to the scar (http://freedomreborn.net/archive/index.php?topic=40961.msg575201#msg575201) were discussed an episode or two ago.

QuoteHow do you figure that last part Cat?

Because the actor who plays Matt said so.  What can I say, I'm pretty good at finding these things out.

Something to keep in mind about Sylar and other things:

Tim Kring has said that the current storylines will all be completed this season.  Finished.  Done.  That would include Sylar, I'm assuming.  Season 2 is supposed to be a completely separate story, with a different group of characters, although some will return.  Here's what I do know about who's coming back and who isn't:

[spoiler]
The actress playing Claire has been signed on for season 2.  Same with Peter.

Hiro will not be present, at least not for a long while.  He will make a time jump into the far past and stay there most of the season.  The most popular theory is that he is himself the great Japanese hero that is known for possessing the sword.

That's it.  Everyone else is open for not being a central character, although that doesn't mean that they will necessarily be dead, just not the focus of the story.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]about the scar....  well since we think that peter can only access a power or two at a time,  maybe he will just try to kick sylars arse instead of healing up first, and because the regeneration is a bit delayed a scar may form.[/spoiler]

Some other reflections:
[spoiler]We don't know what would happen if Ted were killed. The implication in the show has been that he is most dangerous when he is emotionally out of control. That's definitely why Matt kept trying to keep him calm last episode and that would easily explain why he started to meltdown when Mogul/The Recruiter/Thompson wounded him. If he had been killed, he might have just died. Of course, something worse might have happened, but we have no reason to believe it, aside maybe from Ted implying it, which is meaningless since 1) Ted doesn't know anyway and 2) he has every reason to want people to think it. As a counterpoint, Thompson implied that Ted was only going to be around long enough for the company to "find out what gives him his spark."


As an aside, tonight's episode was an example of why I ignore the previews and spoiler material that's out there. With people like the illusionist on the show, basically any scene can be put into a preview and it may be pure misdirection. That's true of any show, but especially in one like this. And, let's be totally clear, the writers and editors feel no obligation to make sure a scene from a preview ever winds up in an aired episode. Didn't someone mention a preview-derived scene where Lab Girl asks HRG "What's the mission?" But that scene was never even in this episode. (And, I thought I heard that something similar happened with Simone...)

Not that I am discouraging all the extra material - it can be fun. But, it's worth considering any factoid not only by asking "what do we think we know?" but also asking "how well do we think we know it?" The reliability of any info outside the show itself has to be given less credibility than whatever hits the air. Meanwhile, in the past I've seen interviews and panel talks with show cast and writers where they admit that the writers know the next several episodes and most of outline until the end of the season, assuming the network has bought the episodes. But, whatever they mention for next season is largely just brainstorming and subject to total revision until the season is in production. And the actors know even less. They have a knowledge horizon that is solid for the episodes where they've seen a script but very fuzzy past that. My point is, none of us should rely too much on that sort of thing because it's only slightly better than our own speculation.

NBC has been unusual in making the online comics canon (assuming that they have), and I think that's a great thing and I read them. But, there isn't really much revealed there that qualifies as advanced info on the aired episodes.[/spoiler]

I wasn't thinking so much relating to "The Company" or Linderman. 

[spoiler]
I think Degauss (which I believe is The Haitian's last name) is working with Mrs. Petrelli.  That's how he tracked Claire so fast.  How does Linderman know about Nathan's hidden daughter or being a special?  Again, Mrs. Petrelli seems to be a likely informant there.  I don't think Degauss is knowingly helping Linderman, though.  If he IS then that's one more question that I have about "what he told Claire earlier in the season".  I think Mrs. Petrelli is more of a player than has been let on.  Why?  I think Linderman might be connected to The Petrelli's in a way that seems painful and cliche to consider but likely given what he knows.

However, let's assume that Mrs. Petrelli and Linderman are not working together.  Then that means there is a fourth side with a seemingly vested interest in Claire at this point.  Now, suppose Nathan helps his mom out in the end and thus reunites himself with his daughter.
[/spoiler]

A few thoughts on the Sylar vs. Peter showdown
[spoiler]
I think the exploding man is going to be Sylar.  I'll do you one better.  I think there will be a three way showdown between those two and Ted.  Sylar should be careful what he wishes for when saying that he wants to know how Peter's power works.     
[/spoiler]

I put those in spoiler tags just in case someone hasn't scene the episode yet.

[spoiler]So you think Sylar will succeed in stealing Peter's actual power of absorption?  Will Peter retain his other powers, i.e. regeneration?  I could see this happening.. Maybe Sylar gets a fraction of Peter's ability, only to run unto trouble with Ted.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Anyone spot the moving car in the New York apocalyptic scene? :P[/spoiler]

Quote from: Sevenforce on March 06, 2007, 02:54:05 PM
[spoiler]Anyone spot the moving car in the New York apocalyptic scene? :P[/spoiler]

I didn't think that was so odd, it's likely several months after the explosion.

Hamrick: Degauss has never been used in anything canon.  It's a fan term.

Quote from: Gremlin on March 07, 2007, 12:11:31 AM
Hamrick: Degauss has never been used in anything canon.  It's a fan term.

Ah.  My bad. 

QuoteI didn't think that was so odd, it's likely several months after the explosion.

Five years, actually.

Quote from: Protomorph on March 06, 2007, 11:53:44 PM

Quote from: Sevenforce on March 06, 2007, 02:54:05 PM
[spoiler]Anyone spot the moving car in the New York apocalyptic scene? :P[/spoiler]

I didn't think that was so odd, it's likely several months after the explosion.

There was also a moving crane lifting a beam on the building on the right.

I'll post more detailed thoughts on the past few episodes later- still trying to catch my breath! - but I did want to share some tidbits that Malcom McDowell spilled to EW

The title of the April 23 episode is ".07%" - the percentage of the population with super powers, perhaps?

And [spoiler]
He confirmed that Linderman has a power!

He wouldn't say what, though I have my suspicions- either its a mind influence thing like Maxwell Lord- or, and this would be my preference- a variation on the cool powers that Major Disaster got from Neron- the ability to see the consequences of his actions several steps ahead.
[/spoiler]

One episode to go until I'm caught up!  Watching them online is dangerous with those cliff-hanger endings!  So easy to just click on the the next episode and forget about the homework . . .


Thoughts on Peter/Sylar - and since I'm new to the thread, apologies for reintroducing theories that may have already been introduced:
[spoiler] I think it's fairly evident that Sylar's base power ("to know how things work") is strong evidence that any hero could have any of these powers but for their own mental blocks.  Sylar is basically teaching himself new tricks by taking apart the brains of his victims.  It may be crude and traumatic, but I don't think he is doing anything that they all couldn't do given the proper skills/training/mind-set.

The irony of course is that Peter does this naturally.  He is what Sylar wants to be.  And what I believe everyone could be.[/spoiler]

Hmm.
[spoiler]I'm not sure if I agree with the Peter/Sylar analysis. For one thing, it seems like all the heroes have one power or control area (and that might have a couple effects, like Hiro's does). It seems like if it was just an issue of mental blocks, some people would have gotten to more than one distinct power before hitting the wall, especially for the passive powers. So, I am not sure anyone could do what Sylar or Peter does. They are different in that the effect of their one power is to absorb (via different means) other powers. They are sort of that kid who always says he'd ask the genie for "a million more wishes".

Also, the "Primatech" scientist who was in charge of examining Sylar made it pretty clear that he thought Sylar was absorbing different DNA (and that it was driving him crazy). The science of that is a bit wonky, and obviously one doesn't need to dig through someone's brain to get their DNA, but it's what we've been told. I'm not sure we know Peter is doing the same thing at a distance, though it kinda seems that way.

BTW, I am not an adherent of the view that when someone says something on a show then it must be the writers telling us the way things are really happening. It's just what the characters think is going on or even what they want others to believe they think is going on. Characters can be speculating and they can just plain be wrong. But, in this case, the scientist character didn't seem to have any other motive and no scientist worth his lab coat would say something like that unless he could actually run tests and show different DNA. (Once again, we have to punt on the real world science of how that would happen.)


As an aside, a couple big issues remain unresolved regarding Peter and Sylar's power gathering, aside from the issue of whether Peter (or even Sylar) can really use more than one at once or if they are just switching quickly, Ultra Boy-style.

First, if gathering all the powers is driving Sylar crazy (or more crazy), will that happen to Peter as well? We did see Peter seem to get sick at the end of his trip to Odessa. I don't know if that was a cumulative effect of absorbing too many people's powers in short order, an effect of just absorbing all of Sylar's powers, or just some other problem.

Second, it's quite possible we've only seen a small sampling of Sylar's powers. Mohinder has mentioned that most of the people on his list are already dead, so that's quite a bit more than the handful we've seen so far. Of course, it's also possible that Sylar has encountered some duplicates or even that the absorption doesn't always work for him.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]But remember, Sylar's first power was not to absorb other's power by eating their brains (or what ever) but to figure out how things work, or "how the pieces of the puzzle fit together."  My contention is that he is not absorbing or assuming other's powers when he kills people, but learning how to do them.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I'm beginning to think that killing them has nothing to do with it.  He just learns how to do it then kills them.  Because if someone else can do what he could then he wouldn't be "special."[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on March 11, 2007, 07:29:39 PMBut remember, Sylar's first power was not to absorb other's power by eating their brains (or what ever) but to figure out how things work, or "how the pieces of the puzzle fit together."  My contention is that he is not absorbing or assuming other's powers when he kills people, but learning how to do them.

I actually like that theory, though I don't think it's the most likely. The notion that he figures out how things tick and how they are broken and that manifests itself in his being able to determine and overcome the psychological barriers his victims have would be a good way to work the plot. And, it would be in keeping with the notion that Sylar only had one power at the outset, instead of both the figuring-things-out power ("clockwork vision" as some have termed it) and the DNA absorption power. (And I don't see how those two things can just be different effects of the same power in the same way that Hiro's time slowing/stopping/reversing powers are.) So, I like that interpretation.

But it could also be - and I would think this is more likely - that Sylar referred to his first victim as broken because he was able to detect some abnormality in his DNA, just as he was able to determine the problem with Chandra's watch before he opened it up. How he actually incorporates his victims' DNA with his own hasn't been explained. (And, I am not hoping for much there...) Of course, I agree that he may well be learning how to manifest the powers instead of absorbing them in some more psuedo-scientific sense and I like that idea more. But the show has very strongly implied that he is changing his own DNA somehow when he mucks with the victims' brains, even to the point of Sylar himself saying he wanted to "sink [his] teeth" into the specials on Mohinder's list. (Some would say that indicates that he physically consumes the brains, which may be, but I don't think we have much indication yet that that is the literal process.) So, I can't get around the DNA modification power as part of his suite.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]My personal thoughts are that, as Chandra has stated and Sylar reiterated, the basis for the power is "in the brain."  I think all the powers generated are psionic in nature, but each person manifests the abilities differently depending on their life experiences.  That's why Peter can draw on two seemingly unrelated abilities (power mimicry and telempathy).  Sylar sees how their brain (although it might be a new portion of the brain, like a new lobe or something...) "channels" the psychic energy, then reconfigures his own brain to channel it in an identical manner.  However, the way the energy is focused is so distinct from person to person, it's an element of their genetics instead of their psyches.  So their DNA will affect their psyches, of course, but it's fundamentally genetic in nature.  That also explains why incorporating so much foreign DNA into his body is driving him insane: because he's mucking around with his brain so much.[/spoiler]

Gremlin:

[spoiler]What is the telempathy you claim Peter can manifest?  I have seen no sign of it in the show.  (And I've been plowing through the episodes on-line.  I've watched them all within about the last week and a half.)[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
I disagree with the notion that he has telempathy.

What he's likely referring to, is that he switches powers by feeling the personalities of those who use the powers. Not a separate ability, IMO.
[/spoiler]

Major spoiler:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9944

And a major ad splurge for Honor Brigade!  :thumbup:

[spoiler]I can't recall any evidense that Peter has telempathy or even empathy (the ability to read emotions). All we know is that at least initially, when he is no longer near the person from whom he acquired the power, he needs to focus on how he felt about that person in order to use it.  I guess could be thought of as training with an empathic angle, which might have been what Claude mumbled about, but it's not what we usually think of as empathy.

Certainly there is a mental aspect to controlling the powers (at least the active ones), in the same way there is a mental aspect to controlling moving one's hand or anything else one might consciously do. I don't think that qualifies as psionic, although some of the specials have psionic powers like TK, thought-sensing, etc.[/spoiler]

Shoot! I forgot that last week's was the last new episode for a while. (http://home.graffiti.net/stumpyanker:graffiti.net/images/emoticon-cry.gif)

Does anyone know when this Stygian nightmare ends?

Quote from: stumpy on March 12, 2007, 08:12:34 PM
Shoot! I forgot that last week's was the last new episode for a while. (http://home.graffiti.net/stumpyanker:graffiti.net/images/emoticon-cry.gif)

Does anyone know when this Stygian nightmare ends?

If, by Stygian nightmare, you mean lack of new episodes.....April 23rd.  :blink: = what I'll be by then!

Yeah, that's what I meant. Thanks, GM.

But, APRIL 23RD? That's practically the end of time! Yeesh.


I guess it's back to catching up on episodes of Day Break.

Ok, you guys are right.  Peter's empathy is more of his innate ability to connect with others.  While not a power in and of itself, it does funnel or channel his overall mimicry.

Yes, that is the right way to think of it.

[spoiler]Maybe - recalling the emotion of Claire is how Peter used her power after getting tossed off the building.  But the TK and flight that he used to save Invisible was not justified that way.  I predict that as he moves along in his powers that will be less important.[/spoiler]

I don't Unc...

[spoiler] Peter didn't start healing until Claire kneeled at his side.  If the Peter vs. Sylar fight is any good, I want to know how a man with healing can have a permanent scar.  Maybe Sylar will eat the part of the brain that mimics healing...with fava beans.  :P 

Is it me or does the backup story seem to be the same as Prison Break...even the name of The Company?
[/spoiler]

Ok, here goes- spoilers both confirmed and speculatory:

Mohinder/Sylar-
[spoiler]
Sorry, Mohinder still retains the title of "dumbest smart guy on the show".  You don't mess around with people like Sylar, no matter how badly you wan't revenge.  This isn't comic books, you aren't Batman, and there are no places that can hold him.  Once you get him down, you shoot him in the <bleeping> head and take your spinal fluid before the body cools.

It's been said that Syalr becomes a regular in season 2.  I think if true (this particular source has been wrong before), this is a HUGE mistake.  The character is one note, unredeemable, and    needs to die.  Even now, I'm tired of him getting away from the justice he so richly deserves.
[/spoiler]

Peter-
[spoiler]
Ow, his powers give me a headache.  Orignally I'd say he shouldn't be able to absorb the powers Sylar absorbed, but, of course, the show has already shown he can.  However, he should not be able to use any of the powers besides TK, since he doesn't have knowledge of them, and even if he did he has no knowledge of the people who had them to use as a trigger.  The scar has been discussed to death so I wont go over it again, other than as long as they use one of the many explanations for it, I'll be happy.

Looking forward to seeing him kick Sylar's butt in the next episode though.
[/spoiler]

HRG/Nathan
[spoiler]
Wow, talk about emotional whiplash.  Nathan goes from creep to good guy back to creep when talking to Linderman (heh. "Now you can't have any pot pie.")

And I went from wanting Peter to kick HRG's butt- to feeling sorry for him- to thinking "wow, justified  but still a <bleep>" - in his interactions with Issac - to rooting for him.  I'm worried about the rest of his family now - the Organization Without Initials know they know and no more Haitian to remove memories, I'm thinking they're gonna die.
[/quote]

Claire-
[spoiler]
Claire kicks butt.  Period. I'm glad she'll be back for Season 2. The expression on her face when Mama Petrelli told her to come in was pricless. [/spoiler]

Hiro/Ando-
[spoiler]
Its very suspicious that Ando was waiting for Hiro.  He's clearly working for someone (see my comments about Linderman).  There are two questions:
a) Why is Sulu allowing Hiro to wander around America?  Does he think he's crazy and does not want him embarssing the family in Japan? or is he trying to pull a HRG and keep Hiro safe from the OWI?
b) I thought the sword was going to let Hiro control his power?  Seems odd he miscalculated his teleportation so badly as to end up not just outside the casino, but accross the country and 5 years in the future.
[/spoiler]

Linderman-
[spoiler]
Ok, I'm thinking we're setting up for a war.  On one side we have Linderman and Mama Petrelli  on the other we have the OWI.  But we dont know who are the good guys and who are the bad  guys.

I've gone over what I think Linderman's power is.  so I wont do it again.

Now- is Ando working for Linderman?  Or Sulu?
[/quote]

Jessica/Niki/Micah/DL-

Quote
By the end of the season one of them wins and has full control of the body. Cant come soone enough.

And is it just me or has Micah and Dl's stories come to a CRASHING stop?
[/spoiler]

3,369,600 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,599 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,598 seconds until a new episode...

Ya think I'm a little hooked? :D

Hmmm.

[Sorry if I mess up the quotes. I couldn't always tell what was you and what was supposed to be outside speculation you were quoting.]

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AM
Mohinder/Sylar-

Sorry, Mohinder still retains the title of "dumbest smart guy on the show".  You don't mess around with people like Sylar, no matter how badly you wan't revenge.  This isn't comic books, you aren't Batman, and there are no places that can hold him.  Once you get him down, you shoot him in the <bleeping> head and take your spinal fluid before the body cools.

I agree 100%. Rule #1: Don't leave the murderous, super-powered psychopath alive. Getting a drug dose fine tuned to the point where it keeps someone physically paralyzed but doesn't knock them out is dodgy business at best. With someone like Sylar, it is just plain stupid to count on that working right. (And why does he need him awake anyway?) Meanwhile, many of Sylar's powers are mental (he doesn't have to move to use them), so just being awake means he is dangerous. Mohinder is a bonehead.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AMIt's been said that Syalr becomes a regular in season 2.  I think if true (this particular source has been wrong before), this is a HUGE mistake.  The character is one note, unredeemable, and    needs to die.  Even now, I'm tired of him getting away from the justice he so richly deserves.

I don't mind him still being around as a background threat. I don't want it to be because one of the good guys was dumb enough to just let him go. But, I don't need all the baddies to meet their end when the current arc closes because I think good stories can come from recurring villains. Where would BtVS have been if Spike had been staked early on?

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AMPeter-

Ow, his powers give me a headache.  Orignally I'd say he shouldn't be able to absorb the powers Sylar absorbed, but, of course, the show has already shown he can.  However, he should not be able to use any of the powers besides TK, since he doesn't have knowledge of them, and even if he did he has no knowledge of the people who had them to use as a trigger.  The scar has been discussed to death so I wont go over it again, other than as long as they use one of the many explanations for it, I'll be happy.

I agree that Peter's powers are too much. He automatically out-ubers anyone who shows up, which I think is a mistake for the story. If Hiro's power is a constant plot-hole waiting to happen (e.g. "Why doesn't he just freeze time for the baddy ...?", etc.), then Peter's is a plot crater.

However, that horse has left the barn. Peter already has TK, which shows he doesn't need to meet the original owner of a power to copy it from Sylar and use it. Meanwhile, I agree and hope that they adopt the idea that Peter at least has to know someone has a power before he can use it (which gets around my previously stated problem of the powers he's absorbed from countless New Yorkers over the years), but we already know he can absorb passive powers without knowing their owners had them, like Claire's regeneration. So, the best we can hope for is that he needs to know the owners have a power before he can use it for active powers. Unless the writers contrive some other limitation on him....

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AMLinderman-

Ok, I'm thinking we're setting up for a war.  On one side we have Linderman and Mama Petrelli  on the other we have the OWI.  But we dont know who are the good guys and who are the bad  guys.

I haven't seen anything that makes me think Linderman is in cahoots with Mama P. Not that they couldn't be, but everything I have seen makes me think they are working at cross purposes, such as Linderman hiring Jessica to off Nathan...

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AMNow- is Ando working for Linderman?  Or Sulu?

I have been betting on Sulu, just because that at least partially explains why Sulu was willing to leave Hiro in the US.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AMJessica/Niki/Micah/DL-

By the end of the season one of them wins and has full control of the body. Cant come soone enough.

I could go either way on this. On the one hand, that storyline has been so marginal that I almost wouldn't care if Niksica gets hit by a meteor and dies. On the other hand, if they are going to keep her around (and I suspect they are because, hey, hot chick == ratings), then I don't mind if she remains a "hero with a dark problem" or a "villain with a weakness". I just don't think this needs to be resolved.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AMAnd is it just me or has Micah and Dl's stories come to a CRASHING stop?

Kinda, though I'll re-complain that they've been running in place for most of the season.

Of course, we did find out that DL isn't completely taken in by Jessica. For that thread, that's about all I can expect. I'm just glad Micah hasn't been caught cyber-grifting and spends three episodes in juvy.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 14, 2007, 07:31:12 AM3,369,600 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,599 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,598 seconds until a new episode...

Ya think I'm a little hooked? :D

I hear ya!   ^_^

Some ideas about those "four simple genes" Mohinder found:

[spoiler]What if those four genes don't define the powers themselves, but the ability to channel the psionic energy that can be manifested as a power?  I'm in the "all the powers are psychic and are shaped by individuals" camp, by the way.  Anywho, so let's say those four genes create a new "power lobe" in your brain.  However, the powers themselves are defined by an entirely different set of genes.  Mohinder wasn't looking for those specifically, just the common genes that kept popping up.  So, let's presume that's true, and Sylar's been pulling these "definition genes" from his victims.  What happens if sombody has all the genes for a power lobe but none of the power definitions?  What about if you had definition genes but no power lobe genes: would Peter or Sylar be able to take your power from you?  Or what if you had incomplete ones, or ones that were seemingly incompatible?  Look at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?  If Claire has children, will they pick up on these power genes, or will they develop their own?  Are the genes pre-defined, or are they shaped by the person who carries them?  Maybe the power lobe has a default power: to alter the Special's DNA.  As the Special grows up, their development actually shapes their definition genes.  Now, of course this process would be slow, but it makes sense.  Just look at Nathan: he's spent his whole life, in his mind, protecting Peter and following orders from his mom.  He's always wanted to escape the pressures of his life, and what's more escapist than flight?  Peter's always been able to relate to others, so his "definition genes" adapted to relate to other definition genes.  If that's the case, Claude might have some serious issues; maybe he was a middle child in a family and had nothing special to define himself with, and thus always felt like he was invisible to his parents.  Sylar's practically been conditioned since birth to become a clockmaker, and has always had a desire to prove himself.  If that's the case, perhaps the ability to steal others' powers is an ability unique to him, born of his desire to be special.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Gremlin on March 14, 2007, 03:29:27 PMI'm in the "all the powers are psychic and are shaped by individuals" camp, by the way.

Why? Have I missed some evidence the show has presented to support that notion? (I'm not against it, just curious where it's coming from.)

Quote from: Gremlin on March 14, 2007, 03:29:27 PMLook at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?

We don't really know that they did. For the most part, it seems like most specials come from non-special parents, so it isn't necessarily the case that a special child will have abilities related to those of his parents, whether they were specials or muggles.

BTW, if it turns out that a specials powers are determined by their experiences (kind of the way energy-x works), then it doesn't seem like that second set of "definition" genes would really be DNA in the way anyone thinks of it. The show's suggestion that Chandra (via his HGP hocus pocus) had some idea what someone's power might be from studying that individual's genetic information makes it seem unlikely that the powers are environmentally determined.

In my mind, we still haven't been given much in the way of clues as to how the powers come about or manifest. We don't know why most people seem to get them as adults (though the suggestion is there that Claire had them as a baby, Micah has them now, and we know the Haitian had them pretty young). We don't know why they seem to be expressing themselves at this point in time. Is it just a hugely unlikely coincidence of nature that now is the time people from all over the world start mutating in the same way or was it triggered by something? Did someone try to make it happen by exposing people to some stimulus or was it an accident?
[/spoiler]

So when does NBC put episodes up on the web?  I just watched #18 and now I have to wait until the next one goes up . . .

Quote from: stumpy on March 14, 2007, 05:03:46 PM
[spoiler]
Why? Have I missed some evidence the show has presented to support that notion?

Quote from: Gremlin on March 14, 2007, 03:29:27 PMLook at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?

We don't really know that they did. For the most part, it seems like most specials come from non-special parents, so it isn't necessarily the case that a special child will have abilities related to those of his parents, whether they were specials or muggles.

I haven't seen this.  It seems like most of the specials have special parents.  Claire's mother is pryro kinetic and her father can fly.  Micha's mother has the two personality thing and his father can pass through solid objects....Has there been any incident where it was shown that specials had non-special parents?  I confess that I haven't seen every episode.
[/spoiler]

QuoteSo when does NBC put episodes up on the web?  I just watched #18 and now I have to wait until the next one goes up . . .

Every week after the new one goes up.

Since there will be no more new episodes until late April, there will be no new ones on the site either.

[spoiler]

Quote from: thalaw2 on March 14, 2007, 05:51:27 PM[...]It seems like most of the specials have special parents.  Claire's mother is pryro kinetic and her father can fly.  Micha's mother has the two personality thing and his father can pass through solid objects....Has there been any incident where it was shown that specials had non-special parents?  I confess that I haven't seen every episode.

I guess I am going by what we know, instead of by what we don't know didn't happen. In other words, what you have shown is that, out of all the specials on the show, we know of two whose parents were specials. To me, that isn't a strong case for most specials having special parents.

(Not that that can't change, of course. For instance, there is always some chance that Mrs. Petrelli or Sulu or some other parent will be written to have powers. Or that some other special, like Linderman, might have special kids.)[/spoiler]



UY, I think someone said that NBC posts the shows the day after they air, but I can't be sure of that.

I've got an idea that would make the Jessica\Nikki storyarc more interesting, but I don't think its the way they're going to go.....

[spoiler]What if Jessica wasn't part of her power, and Nikki was actually either possessed by her dead sister or an actual split personality, and Nikki's real power involved mirrors, but neither she or Jessica realized it and just thought the mirror thing was a way for them to communicate?

Imagine this: Jessica does something to make Nikki severely angry, and taunts Nikki, knowing she's helpless to do anything about it. Nikki's temper explodes, and either the mirror she is in shatters and sends shards flying, slicing Jessica to ribbons (enough to hurt her bad, but not kill her), OR Nikki walks out of the mirror, in a separate body, and is just as strong as Jessica is? Jessica obviously has actual combat skills, which would give her an advantage, but I wouldn't count a full on angry person with equal strength out of the fight.[/spoiler]

I think that specials are like Marvel mutants, in that a child of non-specials can be a special in rare cases, but a child of specials is almost certainly going to be one himself.  After all, the organization expected Claire to develop powers, even though they indicated that she had none (that they knew of) as an infant.

I'm not sure the show has really said that, but I think it makes the most sense in terms of normal biology. And the heritability of the powers in some sense is supported by the fact that two brothers have them (though their powers are nothing alike). However, we also know that there is some way of telling whether someone is a potential special just from a DNA sample, so that could be how they knew about Claire.

I'm also cautious about thinking about the heredity of the specials in the same way we might think of normal biological heredity because things aren't really being shown to follow normal biological patterns. For example, if my genes mutate such that I can control magnetic fields, then my kids are likely to have that power or one very similar because those are the genes they will have. But, in the show, the two kids we know about have powers that bear little similarity to their parents' powers. It would be like I can control magnetic fields and my kids can transmute themselves into pasta sauce.

In addition, there is the factor of television fiction, which means that people who happen to be on the show will have a higher frequency of expressing powers than is realistic. That's bound to happen because it's convenient to use characters that are already part of the storyline, but doesn't mean that the examples we see on the show are a good reference for how things are generally supposed to work. It means we have to be careful about inferring that something that seems to be the pattern among the few specials we see on the show is the representative pattern for specials in the Heroes world. Just like, on a cop show, it's very common that someone's father or sister or whatever is also in law enforcement, way more often than in real life. We are seeing anecdotes, not statistically valid data.

Quote from: stumpy on March 14, 2007, 05:03:46 PM
[spoiler]

Quote from: Gremlin on March 14, 2007, 03:29:27 PMI'm in the "all the powers are psychic and are shaped by individuals" camp, by the way.

Why? Have I missed some evidence the show has presented to support that notion? (I'm not against it, just curious where it's coming from.)

Quote from: Gremlin on March 14, 2007, 03:29:27 PMLook at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?

We don't really know that they did. For the most part, it seems like most specials come from non-special parents, so it isn't necessarily the case that a special child will have abilities related to those of his parents, whether they were specials or muggles.

BTW, if it turns out that a specials powers are determined by their experiences (kind of the way energy-x works), then it doesn't seem like that second set of "definition" genes would really be DNA in the way anyone thinks of it. The show's suggestion that Chandra (via his HGP hocus pocus) had some idea what someone's power might be from studying that individual's genetic information makes it seem unlikely that the powers are environmentally determined.

In my mind, we still haven't been given much in the way of clues as to how the powers come about or manifest. We don't know why most people seem to get them as adults (though the suggestion is there that Claire had them as a baby, Micah has them now, and we know the Haitian had them pretty young). We don't know why they seem to be expressing themselves at this point in time. Is it just a hugely unlikely coincidence of nature that now is the time people from all over the world start mutating in the same way or was it triggered by something? Did someone try to make it happen by exposing people to some stimulus or was it an accident?
[/spoiler]

i thought before this all started the promo was After a"solar ecipse" or somthing to that effect" blah blah realize they have blah blah( i love the show cant remember the words hehe) powers

i probably am wrong, but i remember before the show came out, i was telling a friend about the premise of the show,and at the time i definetly said solar eclipse or somthing was responsible for their powers coming out- not that i am right hehe
anybody else remember somthing to that effect?

The eclipse was kind of a big symbol in the first episode, however it's apparent that many of the heroes had their powers well before that event:  Isaac had been painting some pictures before, we see in flash-back that Eden had hers, Sylar was active before the show started, Claude was active in the organiztion years ago, heck, even the organization itself was well established when Claire was an infant and Hiro a young boy (implying that there were active powers quite a while ago).

About whether or not the future can be changed and New York saved, producer Beeman had this to say in an interview in his weekly blog:

[spoiler]

Quote2. In the sneak peek, I saw a person who looks like Claire with HRG but I can't really be positive if it is Hayden, Is my theory right that that is Claire in the future with HRG?

Make sure you watch episode 20 on April 30th, and all will be answered. Just remember in our universe multiple timelines and universes are a very possible phenomenon.

[/spoiler]

Good to hear. I have been taking it as a given that the future as portrayed in Peter's visions and Hiro's time jumps is changeable or a standard one-of-many deal.

Quote from: stumpy on March 18, 2007, 12:14:21 AM
Good to hear. I have been taking it as a given that the future as portrayed in Peter's visions and Hiro's time jumps is changeable or a standard one-of-many deal.

Agreed, otherwise what was the point of Future Hiro jumping back in time to tell Peter "Save the cheerleader, save the world"?

Right, and the mere fact that Hiro can go back in time means that the past is changeable. There may be some contrived restrictions on the changes, but there's no getting around the basic premise.

Well, not necessarily. There's a style of time travel writing where you show that the travellers aren't actually changing the past, they're performing "necessary" actions to make the present turn out how it was always supposed to. IE, when the "actual" timeline passed by the point where the travellers went, the travellers were there the first time through, and the timeline was always supposed to include their interference. Thus, NOT travelling back would change things.

(ee Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban for an example of this methodology.)

Sigh. Time travel is dumb.

Actually, I think they're going with the "Dr. Who" version of time travel, judging by Charlie.

The good Doctor cannot alter events in his own personal timeline, but everything else is fair game.

Hiro was present when Charlie died, so that made it impossible for him to save her.

There are actually 3 main fictional theories of time travel.  I've named them my own way, but they are the only basic possibilities.  Some series are not consistent about this.  Stargate, for example, has used all 3.

1.  Immutable time.

Time cannot be changed.  Time traveling can only cause the original events to take place.  No matter how hard one tries, one cannot change the past or future.  Attempts to do so will either fail, or cause those events to happen in the first place.  This theory is also used with show having to do with merely viewing the future.

2.  Changable time.

Time is changable stream.  It's course is easily changes and the entire timeline can be made to have never existed by one small mistake.  This theory is often used, but has some many logical problems with it, it isn't even possible.  Since theory #3 can appear to be #2, #3 is often used as a rationalization for those who try to justify stories involving this theory.

3.  Mutiple timelines/universes.

There are at any given time an infinite number of alternate timelines in existence.  Time travel cannot undo or change anything that has happened, but it can form as the catalyst for another timeline.  Traveling through time, therefore, really involves jumping to a new timeline, identical from the original up to the moment that you arrived due to your time travels.  There are no paradoxes as your original timeline, in which you have simply disappeared,  is still intact, but no longer accessible.

EDIT:  There are variations on the Dr. Who version, I suppose, but they make less sense than the others.  Since it has been officially confirmed that Hiro will be

[spoiler]meeting his future self[/spoiler]

I doubt very much that it applies in this case.

Quote from: captainspud on March 18, 2007, 09:05:57 AM
Well, not necessarily. There's a style of time travel writing where you show that the travellers aren't actually changing the past, they're performing "necessary" actions to make the present turn out how it was always supposed to.

I've seen that before, but 1) that still means the past was changed relative to what it would have been without the time travel. The basic point is that the time traveler has an impact on events going forward. 2) I'm not sure that sort of time travel can be what's hinted at here, since Hiro went a future where the explosion occurred, so whatever events in that future's past that prevent the explosion couldn't have been part of its history. Without some sort of separate time-line idea, that theory doesn't work well here.

Quote from: captainspud on March 18, 2007, 09:05:57 AMThus, NOT travelling back would change things.

Agreed, but, either way, the time travel changed things.

Quote from: captainspud on March 18, 2007, 09:05:57 AMSigh. Time travel is dumb.

Amen. As much fun as it can be, there is no way to square any sensible notion of causality with time travel. The only time travel that even sort of works for me is the time-line bifurcation kind, where the time-line splits at the point the time traveler arrives in the past.

[Sigh, ninja'd several times, most likely by time-traveling posters  :P]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on March 18, 2007, 09:28:23 AM

EDIT:  There are variations on the Dr. Who version, I suppose, but they make less sense than the others.  Since it has been officially confirmed that Hiro will be

[spoiler]meeting his future self[/spoiler]

I doubt very much that it applies in this case.

[spoiler]
Dr. Who has met himself repeatedly, so I fail to see why you think Hiro meeting himself rules out that type of  time travel as a factor.  I still maintain, that given the circumstances surronding Charlie's death, It's the explanation that makes the most sense. [/spoiler]

Well, in that case Dr. Who is contradicting itself, since meeting one's past self, by it's very nature, involves changing your own past.

Besides, Hiro had never met Charlie untill right before he jumped back, so I don't see how that applies.

Besides, it's not like he could change the past, his powers are uncontrollable and cause him to do something he didn't intend, as they always have been shown to do.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on March 18, 2007, 10:32:35 AM
Well, in that case Dr. Who is contradicting itself, since meeting one's past self, by it's very nature, involves changing your own past.

Uh, no.  Stopping yourself from meeting.,.yourself (Wow, heavy Austin Powers Deja vu) would be changing the past, but that doesn't happen.  There's no contradiction invovled in meeting yourself at 80 when your 20 and then reliving the meeting again when you're the 80 year old one.

Its a bit of an argument for theory #1, but its still workable

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself
Besides, Hiro had never met Charlie untill right before he jumped back, so I don't see how that applies.

It applies because he was in the diner when she died- which made her death part of his own personal timeline, and thus impossible for him to change.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself
Besides, it's not like he could change the past, his powers are uncontrollable and cause him to do something he didn't intend, as they always have been shown to do.

Current Hiro, perhaps.  Obviously, Future Hiro belives he CAN change the past, otherwise why bother with the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" rigamarole.  And Future Hiro is suppsoed to have a great deal more control over his powers, though obviously the sword isnt quite helping yet.

QuoteCurrent Hiro, perhaps.  Obviously, Future Hiro belives he CAN change the past, otherwise why bother with the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" rigamarole.  And Future Hiro is suppsoed to have a great deal more control over his powers, though obviously the sword isnt quite helping yet.

But what does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about your argument that not saving Charlie means that he can't change his own timeline.  It was current Hiro who was involved in that incident.  Future Hiro has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I'm also not saying that he can't change the past as is.  He already has.

In fact, I've counted 4 different timelines in Heroes so far.

1.  The "current" timeline of heroes.  Diverged from #2 when Hiro goes back in time six months to meet Charlie for an undefined period.  This change is very significant, in that Hiro learned to speak English from Charlie.

2.  Hiro just met Charlie right before her death.  Changed when Hiro jumped back in time.  Unknown what changes Hiro's not learning English well would have had in the present timeline.

3.  Timeline created by Hiro when he first jumps into the future.  In this timeline, Hiro disappears for all five weeks, Ando never leaves Japan, and he disappears in the nuclear explosion.

4.  Similar to #2, except Hiro is present.  This is the same timeline that future Hiro comes from and that Hiro and Ando just time jumped to.  It's yet unknown if it branches off from the current timeline, or if events diverge even in the present.  We'll probably find out come episode 20.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on March 18, 2007, 11:12:49 AM

QuoteCurrent Hiro, perhaps.  Obviously, Future Hiro belives he CAN change the past, otherwise why bother with the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" rigamarole.  And Future Hiro is suppsoed to have a great deal more control over his powers, though obviously the sword isnt quite helping yet.

But what does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about your argument that not saving Charlie means that he can't change his own timeline.  It was current Hiro who was involved in that incident.  Future Hiro has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I'm also not saying that he can't change the past as is.  He already has.

In fact, I've counted 4 different timelines in Heroes so far.

1.  The "current" timeline of heroes.  Diverged from #2 when Hiro goes back in time six months to meet Charlie for an undefined period.  This change is very significant, in that Hiro learned to speak English from Charlie.

2.  Hiro just met Charlie right before her death.  Changed when Hiro jumped back in time.  Unknown what changes Hiro's not learning English well would have had in the present timeline.

Sorry, unless and until we hear that Future Hiro learned English somewhere else, these still fall into Hiros own personal timeline being covered under rule #1.  Hiro's timeline takes place out of chronological order, true - but nothing in it has been changed.

Quote from: catwhowalkedbyhimself
3.  Timeline created by Hiro when he first jumps into the future.  In this timeline, Hiro disappears for all five weeks, Ando never leaves Japan, and he disappears in the nuclear explosion.

That's changing the future, not the past.  There is still no evidence that Hiro can change his own past.

Quote from: catwhowalkedbyhimself
4.  Similar to #2, except Hiro is present.  This is the same timeline that future Hiro comes from and that Hiro and Ando just time jumped to.  It's yet unknown if it branches off from the current timeline, or if events diverge even in the present.  We'll probably find out come episode 20.

Again, that deals with future events, which we all agree Hiro can change.  There is some evidence that Hiro can change past events that are not part of his own personal timelime, such as Claire's presumed death at the hands of Sylar (Again, if Hiro couldn't change past events he would not have bothered going back in time to warn Peter)

From where I sit, there is still no real evidence that Hiro can change his own personal timeline.

Sigh.

Can we stop this argument? Until we get a definite idea of what model the show is using (if indeed it's using a consistent model at all, which it might not be if it's being written by committee), this whole discussion is purely theoretical and has no possible "right answer".

As I mentioned above-- time travel is dumb. From a writing point of view, it just makes way more problems than it's worth.

Hear hear. To be completely annoying, the fact that the show hasn't followed very good scientific rules to begin with concerning powers, the genetics, etc. means that I, for one, will not make an argument about the physics involving time travel within the show. There's far too many unknowns, contradictions and just downright inconsistencies that would restrict us from reaching a reasonable model that could be agreed by all and sundry :)

Then again, knowing we're all geeks, we're gonna argue until we're blue in the faces anyways. -_-

Just remember - everytime you get into an argument about comic/tv physics...God kills a catgirl.

So please...think of the catgirls :P

(Hiro rules all!)

Sorry, I should have been more clear, but I wasn't trying to prove that Hiro could change his own timeline with these four timelines.  I was merely presenting the four timelines in the show.  You were arguing for naught.  I was not arguning against you at all.  I had intended to lay that out for a while, but found it convenient to throw it in there.  I just find the multiple timelines interesting, that's all, and no one's laid them all at before.

Had nothing to do with your argument.

QuoteSorry, unless and until we hear that Future Hiro learned English somewhere else, these still fall into Hiros own personal timeline being covered under rule #1.  Hiro's timeline takes place out of chronological order, true - but nothing in it has been changed.

Quote from: catwhowalkedbyhimself
3.  Timeline created by Hiro when he first jumps into the future.  In this timeline, Hiro disappears for all five weeks, Ando never leaves Japan, and he disappears in the nuclear explosion.

That's changing the future, not the past.  There is still no evidence that Hiro can change his own past.

Quote from: catwhowalkedbyhimself
4.  Similar to #2, except Hiro is present.  This is the same timeline that future Hiro comes from and that Hiro and Ando just time jumped to.  It's yet unknown if it branches off from the current timeline, or if events diverge even in the present.  We'll probably find out come episode 20.

Again, that deals with future events, which we all agree Hiro can change.  There is some evidence that Hiro can change past events that are not part of his own personal timelime, such as Claire's presumed death at the hands of Sylar (Again, if Hiro couldn't change past events he would not have bothered going back in time to warn Peter)

From where I sit, there is still no real evidence that Hiro can change his own personal timeline.

Any of the theories of time travel (which are all ultimately flawed) which stipulate things like "someone can time travel but not change his own time-line" or "he can time travel but not change world history", etc. are all based on arbitrary distinctions and nebulous "gray area" definitions about what constitutes various events. The worst of them essentially assume some sort of very fickle "hand of fate" or "time referee" that allows certain things to happen and others not to.

E.g., how can anyone possibly argue that Hiro hasn't changed his own time-line? He does it every time he time travels. The six month jump into the past to meet Charlie is a perfect example. At that point, he existed with Charlie and also back in Tokyo. How can anyone claim his time-line is unchanged when now it includes him being in two places at once? Yeesh. It wasn't the same as it was before, therefore it was changed. I suppose one could try and drag "big changes" vs. "little changes" into it, but that's just an exercise in arbitrary line-drawing and it still never explains why the universe would care one way or the other.

Meanwhile, who decides what constitutes a world event? Being somewhere is an event in the world. That's all it takes. What possible kind of physics cares whether human historians consider something "important" and only allows other things to happen? Same thing with regard to how does the universe decide where one person's time-line ends and another's begins? It's a purely arbitrary distinction and that's why there is no sense to it.

I am not claiming to have a perfect theory or even a good one. I haven't read a single time travel theory that doesn't fall flat on its face if you think about it for thirty seconds. When I watch these things, I try to just let it go and assume whatever happens could have happened somehow. But, it would annoy me if the writers took something that's as much of a rat's nest as time travel and further garbled it with silly rules about personal time-lines and such nonsense. Pfeh!

Bingo.

"Personal timeline" = arbitrary, pulled-out-of-rectum nonsense.

Actually, #3, the mutiple timeline theory is actually seriously advocated by many quantum physicists.  If there really are infinite universes/timelines, then there should be universes that are identical to our own, but time has not advanced as far, or has advanced farther.  Therefore, you could travel to those universes, leaving your original one intact.

I don't personally buy it, but it does actually make some sense.

I'm with the "they've already garbled so much basic science I don't expect them to handle time travel consistently" camp.  It starts with their goobledegook about the Human Genome Project and goes south from there.  Curare?  A muscular poison, not neuro.  (And let's not even get into the thermodynamics of any of these powers!!)

And of course, any of the arguments about Hiro's powers can be applied in essentially whole cloth to Isaak.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on March 19, 2007, 05:26:12 AMActually, #3, the mutiple timeline theory is actually seriously advocated by many quantum physicists.  If there really are infinite universes/timelines, then there should be universes that are identical to our own, but time has not advanced as far, or has advanced farther.  Therefore, you could travel to those universes, leaving your original one intact.

As I said before, the bifurcation theory (of which multiple/infinite time-lines are variations) is the only one close to being workable. FWIW, most of the physical support for travel into the past derives mainly from anomalies in certain solutions to the equations of general relativity, not quantum physics (some physicists would say that an expected contribution of quantum gravity would be to eliminate these odd solutions to the field equations). And those anomalous solutions (e.g. the Godel Metric) are viewed skeptically, since they often predict properties that we don't see in our universe, or predict that we won't see things that we do see, like Hubble Expansion.

But even physics interpretations that might allow for multiply-connected space-time topology still throw to the wind any sensible notion of causality. That is, from the observer's perspective, a causal universe means that knowing the state of things at time t should give you a good idea of knowing what will happen at the next instant t+dt. But time travel screws with that. Forget about me killing my grandfather, let's say I ship an ordinary brick one second into the past. From the universe's perspective, that brick suddenly popped into existence with no explanation, violating a host of physical laws that have never, ever been observed to fail in the macroscopic world, the least of which is conservation of matter/energy.

Anyway, as I said, I can let all that go and just assume that some variant on bifurcated time is at play here and Hiro, Peter, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, and whoever else can travel into the past (or travel into the future and then back to the present, same diff). That horse is out of the barn and that's fine. My problem is with weird, arbitrary rules about what a time traveler can or cannot do that have nothing to do with science. They are just plot crutches. In other words, there is speculation that Hiro cannot change events in "his" time-line. So, physics aside, I'd love to hear a good explanation of 1) where the definition of Hiro's time-line ends and someone else's starts and 2) what prevents Hiro from changing events in that time line? And, I don't mean some nebulous hocus pocus like "karma" or or "balance" or whatever that doesn't actually explain anything. I mean what actually happens that stops him? What's the mechanism?

BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

Oh yeah, let's add Charlie's brain "clot" to the list of BS science on the show.

Actually, let's not.  I've been having a lot of fun watching the show, and too much more of this second guessing runs the potential of really ruining things for me.

All it really means is this:

If Hiro had saved Charlie, (i.e. she wasn't present at the time so she would not have been killed) Hiro would not know she was killed, and thus would have no reason to go into the past to meet her and save her. Thus: It would not happen, and she would die as she was always meant to. Of course, this may also hold true for the explosion. As for the explosion, it being a future incident that hasn't happened yet, it can be prevented without altering his reasons for his own actions (his personal timeline). He is time jumping through the events, not because of them.

For that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...[spoiler] Peter going critical mass and nobody could get close enough to stop him, except Claire, as she did for Ted.[/spoiler]

and speaking of the explosion:
Ted has been locked up by Primatech. The actor playing him has said that the explosion will be caused by his powers, and not necessarilly by him. There are only 2 people who it could be if not Ted; Peter and Sylar. So, at some point, Ted will probably escape, likely facillitaed by the Hacker girl and/or Matt.

I still want to see what happens when Nikki meets Peter. Maybe Peter will get an alter ego and becomes...Jessica! Would that not be a twist? :D

As for Hiro, I read on his blog...[spoiler]apparently, his blog follows his temporal perspective, and has been ended in respect for the people who lost their lives after the tragic events of Nov 8. And his company has disavowed any association with Hiro! Is he being blamed for the accident?[/spoiler]

QuoteFor that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...

[spoiler]Official sources have stated that future Hiro comes form the future timeline that Hiro and Ando just jumped into, and that Claire is alive and well in that timeline, and reunited with HRG.[/spoiler]

QuoteFor that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...

[spoiler]Again, official sources have confirmed that Peter WILL be getting his scar, but not from the current battle with Sylar.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on March 19, 2007, 12:31:11 PM

QuoteFor that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...

Official sources have stated that future Hiro comes form the future timeline that Hiro and Ando just jumped into, and that Claire is alive and well in that timeline, and reunited with HRG.

Actually, official sources have stated that a scene from the promo of a brunette Claire talking to HRG is from episode 20, which is set in the future that future Hiro came from.  It might be Candace, seeing as how future Hiro certainly made it seem like Claire had died in his timeline ("She must live.  It's the only way to prevent it").[/spoiler]

Possible, but not necessarily true. Still might be true.  We'll see in episode 20, I guess.

Have they ever expressly shown Peter to use a super's power whom he has met, but is currently dead?  I know it has been theorized that he used Eden's power, but I'm not entirely convinced he did.  I had a theory that Peter, being almost the opposite of Sylar may actually need the super to be alive (unlike Sylar who seems to need them dead).  This is why I figure the way for him to get the scar would be if Claire was dead at the time he is injured.  It wouldn't even be necessary for her to be permanently dead, just prior to coming back dead.
Well, it's just a theory.  Put away the torches and pitchforks. ;)

Interesting theory, but so far there's zilch to support it.

Plus, he's using powers that Sylar got from people that he killed.  That doesn't necessarily contradict your theory, but there's nothing at all to suggest that.

Who is HRG?  :huh:

HRG stands for Horn Rimmed Glasses, AKA Mr. Bennet.

Even the actor who player him calls that character HRG, as do everyone else in an official capacity with the show and most fans.

Ok, first let me say that I agree that the writers really needed to sit down and work out exactly what the rules were for Hiro (and Peter) before the season began. And its very clear that they didn't.

Time travel can work well if done right - Deja vu is an excellent example of that. A so-so movie but the time travel part was well thoguht out and completley flawless- not a single hole could I find and believe me, I went looking.


That said, back to the fun:

Quote from: stumpy on March 19, 2007, 08:26:33 AM

But even physics interpretations that might allow for multiply-connected space-time topology still throw to the wind any sensible notion of causality. That is, from the observer's perspective, a causal universe means that knowing the state of things at time t should give you a good idea of knowing what will happen at the next instant t+dt. But time travel screws with that. Forget about me killing my grandfather, let's say I ship an ordinary brick one second into the past. From the universe's perspective, that brick suddenly popped into existence with no explanation, violating a host of physical laws that have never, ever been observed to fail in the macroscopic world, the least of which is conservation of matter/energy.

Which is why you can't do that - there's no way to send a brick into the past.  What you'd wind up doing is bouncing yourself into a universe where there was a good reason for the brick to be there.  It'd be your perspective that had changed, not the universes.

Quote from: Stumpy
Anyway, as I said, I can let all that go and just assume that some variant on bifurcated time is at play here and Hiro, Peter, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, and whoever else can travel into the past (or travel into the future and then back to the present, same diff). That horse is out of the barn and that's fine. My problem is with weird, arbitrary rules about what a time traveler can or cannot do that have nothing to do with science. They are just plot crutches. In other words, there is speculation that Hiro cannot change events in "his" time-line. So, physics aside, I'd love to hear a good explanation of 1) where the definition of Hiro's time-line ends and someone else's starts and 2) what prevents Hiro from changing events in that time line? And, I don't mean some nebulous hocus pocus like "karma" or or "balance" or whatever that doesn't actually explain anything. I mean what actually happens that stops him? What's the mechanism?

1) In general, I'd say it's anything he had direct experience (as opposed to knowledge) of.  Think of time as a bunch of individual currents (individual time lines) in a river (time itself). Hiro can use his current to alter the other currents, but can not change his current nor alter the ground his current has already covered.

2) Well, in Dr. Who  a bunch of Dragon looking things start eating time and the Universe comes to an end. Here? Who knows- could be nature, could be psychological.  All we know is that the one time he tried - his powers threw him back into the present, halfway around the world.

Quote from: stumpy
BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

Actually, I would argue very strongly that while Hiro has changed the past, he has not changed his past because while the events of Hiros life do not take place in chronological order, they still take place in a linear fashion.  His jump into the past changed Charlie's past, but not his own- hes still going forward one second at a time, even if the seconds are not in chronlogical order. Hence the phone call to himself (which- was that mentioned way back in one of the earlier episodes. I'd swear I remember Hiro saying to Ando "Someone called looking for you, but I answered the phone and they hung up way back in an earlier episode)

I'd argue that there's only one way to "change" your own past- project your conciousness back through time; a literal "Well now I know now what I knew then" sort of moment. And its already been established that Hiro's powers don't work that way.

But again, that all assumes an arbitrary Time Nanny who decides what does and doesn't constitute "your timeline". He went back in time six months, at which time he was in Japan as well. For all we know, air he breathed out in Texas circled the world and was then breathed in by Japan Hiro, changing those few air molecules.

The whole world is one big game of billiards. Even if you knock the 7-ball in at the south end without hitting a single other ball, your impact might have shifted the table by a molecule or two, subtly changing the outcome of your next shot on the 8 at the north end. You can't argue that the 8-ball's timeframe didn't include the 7 because they're so far apart, because who's to say that being at opposite ends of the table is enough for them to have ZERO effect on each other?

"Personal timeline" is a contrivance. It makes no sense, as it requires an intelligent manipulator to work. I'll be tremendously disappointed if they do something along those lines.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PMTime travel can work well if done right - Deja vu is an excellent example of that. A so-so movie but the time travel part was well thoguht out and completley flawless- not a single hole could I find and believe me, I went looking.

I haven't seen Deja vu yet, though I am planning to when it's out on DVD.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PM

Quote from: stumpy on March 19, 2007, 08:26:33 AMBut even physics interpretations that might allow for multiply-connected space-time topology still throw to the wind any sensible notion of causality. That is, from the observer's perspective, a causal universe means that knowing the state of things at time t should give you a good idea of knowing what will happen at the next instant t+dt. But time travel screws with that. Forget about me killing my grandfather, let's say I ship an ordinary brick one second into the past. From the universe's perspective, that brick suddenly popped into existence with no explanation, violating a host of physical laws that have never, ever been observed to fail in the macroscopic world, the least of which is conservation of matter/energy.

Which is why you can't do that - there's no way to send a brick into the past.  What you'd wind up doing is bouncing yourself into a universe where there was a good reason for the brick to be there.  It'd be your perspective that had changed, not the universes.

DC used to have sort of an interesting take on time travel with Superman, from what I read in the reprints of classic 1950s stories. (I am basing this off a couple "best Superman stories" reprints, so this was probably very inconsistent. I am certainly not claiming they did things this way all the time...) He would turn into a "ghost" when he traveled into the past, able to observe but unable to affect events. It was a pretty good explanation and avoided some of the physics trouble I mentioned earlier. When I was a kid, I thought they had really found something that was causally sound. Now, of course, I understand that the ghost approach is just as inexplicable as the others because information is real "stuff" too and going into the past and gathering data from there is just as much a problem as grabbing a brick or a person or whatever. It's acausal and violates any number of basic physics laws, like the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PM

Quote from: Stumpy
Anyway, as I said, I can let all that go and just assume that some variant on bifurcated time is at play here and Hiro, Peter, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, and whoever else can travel into the past (or travel into the future and then back to the present, same diff). That horse is out of the barn and that's fine. My problem is with weird, arbitrary rules about what a time traveler can or cannot do that have nothing to do with science. They are just plot crutches. In other words, there is speculation that Hiro cannot change events in "his" time-line. So, physics aside, I'd love to hear a good explanation of 1) where the definition of Hiro's time-line ends and someone else's starts and 2) what prevents Hiro from changing events in that time line? And, I don't mean some nebulous hocus pocus like "karma" or or "balance" or whatever that doesn't actually explain anything. I mean what actually happens that stops him? What's the mechanism?

1) In general, I'd say it's anything he had direct experience (as opposed to knowledge) of.  Think of time as a bunch of individual currents (individual time lines) in a river (time itself). Hiro can use his current to alter the other currents, but can not change his current nor alter the ground his current has already covered.

But now we're back to the question: How could there be any real separation from his time-line and anyone else's? Ultimately, there is none because everyone's time-line is connected and trying to separate them involves making purely subjective decisions about whether an action had a "big" effect or some tiny effect that a person may not even notice. You live in the whole universe, not just the parts of it you think are important at a given point; it's all part of your time-line. My point is, rules based on this end up being based on when a person might subjectively consider something an important change and not when a change has actually occurred. It would be an entirely capricious universe (or some "time referee") that prevents certain things from happening but allows others based merely on meeting a subjective standard of "importance".

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PM2) Well, in Dr. Who  a bunch of Dragon looking things start eating time and the Universe comes to an end. Here? Who knows- could be nature, could be psychological.  All we know is that the one time he tried - his powers threw him back into the present, halfway around the world.

He had already changed the past at that point, both the real history of the universe and whatever notion of his personal past one might hold.

BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PM

Quote from: stumpy
BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

Actually, I would argue very strongly that while Hiro has changed the past, he has not changed his past because while the events of Hiros life do not take place in chronological order, they still take place in a linear fashion.  His jump into the past changed Charlie's past, but not his own- hes still going forward one second at a time, even if the seconds are not in chronlogical order. Hence the phone call to himself (which- was that mentioned way back in one of the earlier episodes. I'd swear I remember Hiro saying to Ando "Someone called looking for you, but I answered the phone and they hung up way back in an earlier episode)

I'd argue that there's only one way to "change" your own past- project your conciousness back through time; a literal "Well now I know now what I knew then" sort of moment. And its already been established that Hiro's powers don't work that way.

The phone call and the birthday picture are Hiro's past being different due to his time travel. He changed his past. I have a hard time seeing how any other interpretation isn't just hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.


BTW, I want to emphasize again that we have no idea that any rules like that are at work on the show. All we have is Hiro's interpretation, which is mixed in with his concept of the heroic ideal and X-Men #143. If this all boils down to Hiro not being able to do certain things because of his own psychological limitations stopping him, then I am fine with it. In that case, effectively, he chooses to limit himself and there is no silly "law of time travel" at play.

Quote from: stumpy
DC used to have sort of an interesting take on time travel with Superman, from what I read in the reprints of classic 1950s stories. (I am basing this off a couple "best Superman stories" reprints, so this was probably very inconsistent. I am certainly not claiming they did things this way all the time...) He would turn into a "ghost" when he traveled into the past, able to observe but unable to affect events. It was a pretty good explanation and avoided some of the physics trouble I mentioned earlier. When I was a kid, I thought they had really found something that was causally sound. Now, of course, I understand that the ghost approach is just as inexplicable as the others because information is real "stuff" too and going into the past and gathering data from there is just as much a problem as grabbing a brick or a person or whatever. It's acausal and violates any number of basic physics laws, like the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Which, again, is why in the "real world" you cant do that.  You can bounce yourself back down a branch of time, but the mere act of doing that will cause you to be bounced back up a different branch.  There was an excellent short story (Whose title and author escape me, sadly) about a scientist who caught his wife cheating and kept trying to go back in time and kill her relatives- in the process so unthethering himself from time that he started bouncing around the various branches at random; but in the original timeline he came from, nothing had changed.

You cant change any timeline in the "real world", though I do believe you can bounce yourself between timelines.  But thats not really relevant as to how the show works.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PM

Quote from: Stumpy

1) In general, I'd say it's anything he had direct experience (as opposed to knowledge) of.  Think of time as a bunch of individual currents (individual time lines) in a river (time itself). Hiro can use his current to alter the other currents, but can not change his current nor alter the ground his current has already covered.

But now we're back to the question: How could there be any real separation from his time-line and anyone else's? Ultimately, there is none because everyone's time-line is connected and trying to separate them involves making purely subjective decisions about whether an action had a "big" effect or some tiny effect that a person may not even notice. You live in the whole universe, not just the parts of it you think are important at a given point; it's all part of your time-line. My point is, rules based on this end up being based on when a person might subjectively consider something an important change and not when a change has actually occurred. It would be an entirely capricious universe (or some "time referee") that prevents certain things from happening but allows others based merely on meeting a subjective standard of "importance".

See now here we disagree.  Most people live in what is, effecitvley a very small universe and the larger universe consists of all these smaller universes side by side. And no, everyones time line is not connected-
If I spend 10 minutes eating breakfast, and then teleport 10 minutes into the past (and halfway around the world) to save someone in Paris from a car accident, I have interfered with another persons timeline (chnaging the past) but I have not changed my past- for reasons I'll get into below.

Quote from: stumpy

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PM2) Well, in Dr. Who  a bunch of Dragon looking things start eating time and the Universe comes to an end. Here? Who knows- could be nature, could be psychological.  All we know is that the one time he tried - his powers threw him back into the present, halfway around the world.

He had already changed the past at that point, both the real history of the universe and whatever notion of his personal past one might hold.

Ok, if you want to put on the lawyer pants, I'll admit that in the Dr. Who universe, one CAN change his own past- but given the horrible things that will result one probably shouldn't.  And technically, the Doctor didn't change the past (presumably because he knew of the horrbile things that would arise as a result), his companion who didn't know better did.

Quote from: stumpy"
BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

Now you're just being disingenious.  That's the equivelent of saying "I don't know why I crashed my car, I just did"- when you've spent the past 90 minutes in a bar getting hammered.  Sure, getting hammered might not have had anything to do with you crashing your car, but that's unlikely.  Sure, Hiro's powers triggering just when he was about to change his own timeline might not have anything to do with changing his own timeline- but that's unlikely, as well.

Quote from: stumpy

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 25, 2007, 08:25:41 PM

Quote from: stumpy
BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

Actually, I would argue very strongly that while Hiro has changed the past, he has not changed his past because while the events of Hiros life do not take place in chronological order, they still take place in a linear fashion.  His jump into the past changed Charlie's past, but not his own- hes still going forward one second at a time, even if the seconds are not in chronlogical order. Hence the phone call to himself (which- was that mentioned way back in one of the earlier episodes. I'd swear I remember Hiro saying to Ando "Someone called looking for you, but I answered the phone and they hung up way back in an earlier episode)

I'd argue that there's only one way to "change" your own past- project your conciousness back through time; a literal "Well now I know now what I knew then" sort of moment. And its already been established that Hiro's powers don't work that way.

The phone call and the birthday picture are Hiro's past being different due to his time travel. He changed his past. I have a hard time seeing how any other interpretation isn't just hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.

I know it sounds like I'm arguing the definition of "is" here, but I really believe there is a very important differental between changing his past and changing the past.  Let me give you an example:

Minute 1: Hiro's eating breakfast
Minute 2: Hiro's eating breakfast
Minute 3: Hiros eating breakfast
Minute 4: Hiro's eating breakfast
Minute 5: Hiros eating breakfast
Minute 6: Hiro teleports
Minute 7: Hiro freezes time
Minute 8: Hiro shoves someone out of the way of a car
Minute 9: Hiro unfreezes time
Minute 10: Hiro goes "Yatta!"

That's a 10 minute sequence of his past, right?

Well that sequence doesn't change at all if I label it like this:
8:50 - Hiro's eating breakfast
8:51 - Hiro's eating breakfast
8:52 - Hiros eating breakfast
8:53 - Hiro's eating breakfast
8:54 - Hiros eating breakfast
8:55 - Hiro teleports
8:51 - Hiro freezes time
8:51 - Hiro shoves someone out of the way of a car
8:51 - Hiro unfreezes time
8:52 - Hiro goes "Yatta!"

So even though Hiro has clearly changed the past, since the 10 minute sequence remains in the exact same order for him, I once again say that he has not changed his past.  I'd argue, and argue strongly that the only way for Hiro to alter his past would be to alter that 10 minute sequence of events.

Quote from: stumpy
BTW, I want to emphasize again that we have no idea that any rules like that are at work on the show. All we have is Hiro's interpretation, which is mixed in with his concept of the heroic ideal and X-Men #143. If this all boils down to Hiro not being able to do certain things because of his own psychological limitations stopping him, then I am fine with it. In that case, effectively, he chooses to limit himself and there is no silly "law of time travel" at play.

Oh, it may be psychological - but I'd still argue that the limitation exists.

People don't live in separate timelines, though.  Everything effects everything else.  Yes, the man who save someone around the world in the past might not seem to change his own present, he will almost certainly change his, or his descendants future.  And even then, it's entirely possible that he might change his own past as well.  There's no way of tell, because everything's connected.

All you've succeeded in convincing me is that Dr. Who is dumb.  Which is too bad, because I used to be interested in it before you started this argument.  Now it just doesn't seem as appealing.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on March 27, 2007, 07:59:06 AM
People don't live in separate timelines, though.  Everything effects everything else.  Yes, the man who save someone around the world in the past might not seem to change his own present, he will almost certainly change his, or his descendants future.  And even then, it's entirely possible that he might change his own past as well.  There's no way of tell, because everything's connected.

I disagree. I understand that people like to believe everything is connected so they dont have to think about how small they are in a big universe- but I honestly don't believe it unless you stretch things enormously.  But that's philosophy, and I think I've already dragged this thread off track enough discussing the mechanics of "time travel", no? :D

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself
All you've succeeded in convincing me is that Dr. Who is dumb.  Which is too bad, because I used to be interested in it before you started this argument.  Now it just doesn't seem as appealing.

Oh, don't let me put you off one of the best shows on TV. The "being unable to change your own timeline" is a really small part of the show, promise.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AM
See now here we disagree.  Most people live in what is, effecitvley a very small universe and the larger universe consists of all these smaller universes side by side. And no, everyones time line is not connected-
If I spend 10 minutes eating breakfast, and then teleport 10 minutes into the past (and halfway around the world) to save someone in Paris from a car accident, I have interfered with another persons timeline (chnaging the past) but I have not changed my past- for reasons I'll get into below.

People live in the whole universe; there is no getting around it. If you try to say that people little in little sub-universes that combine to make the whole universe, that still means they live in the larger universe, regardless of any compartmentalization.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AM

Quote from: stumpy"
BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

Now you're just being disingenious. 

No. I am being accurate. Time travel may be the most unbeatable power on the show, but Hiro is hardly omniscient or infallible. I am just separating what we actaully saw happen from Hiro's speculation about it. He can conclude that his power works or doesn't work by whatever rules and we have to accept that he might be wrong, especially since he doesn't have any expertise in the field and barely any experience with his power.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AMSure, Hiro's powers triggering just when he was about to change his own timeline might not have anything to do with changing his own timeline- but that's unlikely, as well.

Here's where your interpretation is making that seem less likely than it needs to. If you accept that Hiro has already changed his time-line, then it doesn't seem so unlikely that Hiro's power - which has worked erratically for him since day one - experienced a glitch at that point. And it was a point at which he had just discovered that, for reasons completely unrelated to any limitation on his power, he couldn't save Charlie anyway.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AM[...]
So even though Hiro has clearly changed the past, since the 10 minute sequence remains in the exact same order for him, I once again say that he has not changed his past.  I'd argue, and argue strongly that the only way for Hiro to alter his past would be to alter that 10 minute sequence of events.

Even with your personal time-lines theory, Hiro has changed his own past. The phone call he got from himself is his power affecting his own time-line. And, frankly, future Hiro talking to Peter changed the past that Hiro is part of as well. I can't see how it didn't without the aforementioned hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AM

Quote from: stumpy
BTW, I want to emphasize again that we have no idea that any rules like that are at work on the show. All we have is Hiro's interpretation, which is mixed in with his concept of the heroic ideal and X-Men #143. If this all boils down to Hiro not being able to do certain things because of his own psychological limitations stopping him, then I am fine with it. In that case, effectively, he chooses to limit himself and there is no silly "law of time travel" at play.

Oh, it may be psychological - but I'd still argue that the limitation exists.

If it's just a psychological limitation where it only affect Hiro or someone with a similar psychological disposition, then I am fine with it. If it is some general rule that applies to everyone with that power regardless of their psychology (possible Peter), then it is a plot crutch and a weak one.

I really enjoy the show, but I have to admit that I find the character of Sylar to be unbelievable.  To go from angry about his "lack" of powers to serial killer seems like a stretch to me.  It reminds of the last Star Wars movie where Skywalker goes from morally uncertain to child murderer in about 2 seconds.  It doesn't make much sense to me at all.  This coupled with the fact that most other characters on the show who just learn about their powers take a lot of time to develop them and mature into them.

Re: Endless discussion about how Hiro's powers work

I hate time travel.

QuoteI really enjoy the show, but I have to admit that I find the character of Sylar to be unbelievable.  To go from angry about his "lack" of powers to serial killer seems like a stretch to me.  It reminds of the last Star Wars movie where Skywalker goes from morally uncertain to child murderer in about 2 seconds.  It doesn't make much sense to me at all.  This coupled with the fact that most other characters on the show who just learn about their powers take a lot of time to develop them and mature into them.

But that's *exactly* what happens with real serial killers.  They will seem normal to most people, but something happens, maybe even something rather minor, that will trigger the beginning of their sociopathic activities.  This actually makes the show MORE realistic, since Sylar irrationality is exactly what really does happen with real serial killers.

Actually Cat, they only seem normal if you don't look too closesly, sociopaths usually have a history of anti-social behavior, like torturing animals, etc.

I am a little on both sides of this one.

On the one hand, I think they overplayed Sylar's irrationality. Admittedly, he is not a normal sociopath, but it seems like anyone who was that unhinged would have been found out sooner.

On the other hand, while it's true that most serial killers are said to exhibit other pathological behaviors at some point, those behaviors are not always evident to the people around them. From that perspective, it might have been appropriate that we weren't shown anything like it.

Meanwhile, one of the characters on the show posited the theory that his insanity was growing as he absorbed others' DNA, so Sylar's pattern doesn't have to follow any template set by real-world psychopaths.

One last try and then I'll let it go as I get the distinct impression we are talking past, not to each other at this point.

Quote from: stumpy on March 27, 2007, 12:07:37 PM

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AM
See now here we disagree.  Most people live in what is, effecitvley a very small universe and the larger universe consists of all these smaller universes side by side. And no, everyones time line is not connected-
If I spend 10 minutes eating breakfast, and then teleport 10 minutes into the past (and halfway around the world) to save someone in Paris from a car accident, I have interfered with another persons timeline (chnaging the past) but I have not changed my past- for reasons I'll get into below.

People live in the whole universe; there is no getting around it. If you try to say that people little in little sub-universes that combine to make the whole universe, that still means they live in the larger universe, regardless of any compartmentalization. 

Well, yes, but that's not really relevant.  I've thought of a better example- think of a carton of snowglobes, each snowglobe contaning a handful of people.  Do all the people still exsist inside the carton?  Sure, but its not really relevant in terms of what they can affect- each snowglobe can only deal with the handful of snowglobes around it- the carton isnt affected in any signifcant way by the people inside any snowglobe.

Or as Terry Pratchett once put it: "We're not on the same side. We're on two different sides that happen to be side by side".

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AM

Quote from: stumpy"
BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

Now you're just being disingenious. 

No. I am being accurate. Time travel may be the most unbeatable power on the show, but Hiro is hardly omniscient or infallible. I am just separating what we actaully saw happen from Hiro's speculation about it. He can conclude that his power works or doesn't work by whatever rules and we have to accept that he might be wrong, especially since he doesn't have any expertise in the field and barely any experience with his power.

No, you're being disengious. Again, go back to my car crah example- do we know that being drunk is what caused the guy to crash his car?  No, but to completely ignore the fact that he spent 90 minutes in a bar drinking just before the crash when speculating about the causes of the crash is silly.  Do we know that Hiros powers malfunctioning was due to him being just about to change his own timeline? No, but to completely ignore that the exact moment his powers spazzed out was when he was just about to change his own timeline seems just as silly.

Oh, and Hiros done little or no speculating about his powers. I've done most of it for him. :D

Quote from: stumpy

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AMSure, Hiro's powers triggering just when he was about to change his own timeline might not have anything to do with changing his own timeline- but that's unlikely, as well.

Here's where your interpretation is making that seem less likely than it needs to. If you accept that Hiro has already changed his time-line, then it doesn't seem so unlikely that Hiro's power - which has worked erratically for him since day one - experienced a glitch at that point. And it was a point at which he had just discovered that, for reasons completely unrelated to any limitation on his power, he couldn't save Charlie anyway.

There is no evidence that Hiro can change his own timleine- him being on both sides of the phone call doesn't prove it. The photograph certainly doesn't prove it as we dont even see it until after he goes back to the past.  And you havent even touched the small but crucial difference between the past and his past.

All we have for certain is the knowledge that future Hiro belives he can change THE past, or he wouldn't even have bothered to deliver the message to Peter.

See here's the thing stumpster- we don't argue about the facts. At a critical moment in his attempt to save Charlie, Hiro's powers malfunctioned and threw him halfway across the world and back into the present.

You would have me believe that these powers (which have not malfunctioned when he was not trying to use them before or since- thats a key point- he was not trying to use his powers in that scene) just chose that moment to randomly malfunction- a moment just before he would have accomplished something that would have changed his personal timeline.

I'm sorry, I cant buy that. It feels like lame, forced and sloppy writing. "Whoops, random power moment that has never happened before and will never happen again".

No.  Some force- call it destiny- call it a psychological limitation- call it a self fufilling prophecy- "In order to  be motivated to get the sword, his powers had to fail. In order for his powers to fail he had to fail to save Charile." - kicked in and threw him back to the present in Japan.  That just makes so much more sense to me.

Quote from: stumpy

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 27, 2007, 07:40:02 AM[...]
So even though Hiro has clearly changed the past, since the 10 minute sequence remains in the exact same order for him, I once again say that he has not changed his past.  I'd argue, and argue strongly that the only way for Hiro to alter his past would be to alter that 10 minute sequence of events.

Even with your personal time-lines theory, Hiro has changed his own past. The phone call he got from himself is his power affecting his own time-line. And, frankly, future Hiro talking to Peter changed the past that Hiro is part of as well. I can't see how it didn't without the aforementioned hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.

Um, no. In no way does being on both ends of a phone call to himself change his past.  And yes, future Hiro thinks he can change THE past, but those two terms are NOT synonyms.

Quote from: stumpy
If it's just a psychological limitation where it only affect Hiro or someone with a similar psychological disposition, then I am fine with it. If it is some general rule that applies to everyone with that power regardless of their psychology (possible Peter), then it is a plot crutch and a weak one.

I think it may indeed be psychological.  But where we differ and differ strongly is that I'd view "Whoops! Random Power Firing ™" as a weaker plot crutch by several orders of magnitude.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 28, 2007, 09:05:00 PM[...] I get the distinct impression we are talking past, not to each other at this point.

Apparently.

QuoteYou would have me believe that these powers (which have not malfunctioned when he was not trying to use them before or since- thats a key point- he was not trying to use his powers in that scene) just chose that moment to randomly malfunction- a moment just before he would have accomplished something that would have changed his personal timeline.

I'm sorry, I cant buy that. It feels like lame, forced and sloppy writing. "Whoops, random power moment that has never happened before and will never happen again".

Actually, his powers misfired at a moment of great emotional impact, AFTER he'd already discovered that Charlie was going to die anyways and that he had already failed in his mission to save her, whether Sylar got her or not.  We've already seen that his emotional and mental state has a great impact on his powers, so why assume that this is not the case here as well?

Hiro's attempt to save Charlie is independent of her eventual death.  He did not know she was already ill when Sylar killed her.  For him, he feels he failed to save her, but he isn't a god.  He didn't know she had a condition, and even if he did, he has no control over natural processes.  He DID save her, only he saved her from a violent death and in the process prevented Sylar from acquiring a very strong power.  It's "coincidental" that she died anyway. (More because the writers didn't want Hiro to have an ongoing girlfriend or the constant "Gotta keep her away from Sylar" that would have resulted.  "Save the Waitress, Save the World?")  Had he known she was ill, would he have gone back to "save" her anyway?  I think he would have.  She didn't deserve to have her head cut open, and Sylar definitely shouldn't have gotten the information absorption ability.
We've seen before that stress makes Hiro's powers act oddly, so any resultant loss or misfiring is easily explained by his mental state.
In regards to Future Hiro:  Yes, he was trying to change the future, but he was doing it by contacting Peter rather than just popping in behind Sylar and chopping him down with his sword.  Does he still believe he can't directly affect the past, or is the task to save the cheerleader a red herring, in actuality setting the course of events surrounding Peter?  If he didn't send Peter there, most of the events in the show would have played out differently.
I'm not sure the writers have over-analyzed the methods and types of time travel and their philosophical implications about reality, fate, and their role beyond the narrative.

First, I was pretty sure that Sylar still wound up killing Charlie. not that the tumor got her.
Hasn't it been confirmed that she's a victim despite Hiro's intervention?

Second while I buy that stress makes powers go wonky, stress making powers go wonky when they're not being used (except for always on ones like Claire's, and to a lesser extent, Issac's) is just too much of a stretch for me.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 29, 2007, 09:44:35 AM
First, I was pretty sure that Sylar still wound up killing Charlie. not that the tumor got her.
Hasn't it been confirmed that she's a victim despite Hiro's intervention?

Yes.  In Graphic Novel # 20, Road Kill, Sylar uses her power.

That's one of the issues I have with the Graphic Novels vs. the Show.  What I got out of the show (and others I've spoken to in RL), was that he didn't prevent her death, but prevented Sylar from getting her.  But you say the online comics contradict this.  Since I'd gather that many if not most of the audience, like me, do not read the online comics, we would not have that information.  I'd also think that if he really had that power, he would have had no need to keep Mohinder around.  Read the list, or watch Mohinder work the program, and poof! no more need for the stupid smart guy.
Ok, then with that new information, I'd say that she must have chosen to die dispite the warning.  Since they reveal that she was ill in the show, perhaps she chose to be killed rather than suffer?  At that point then, it is still beyond Hiro's control.  He can go back and warn people, but each person has their own choices to make.  It's not like he can command anyone to do something to change events.

Even before I read the comic, I kinda thought Sylar got to her, too, though the show doesn't make the circumstances of her death clear for the second time around. There was still a memorial to Charlie in the restaurant with flowers and pictures (including the one of Charlie and Hiro at her birthday), but I didn't see any police, crime scene tape, etc. Regardless of how she died, the circumstances of Charlie meeting Hiro in the "present" the second time around would be complicated, given how he blinked out on her right after she told him she loved him. I can see why the show wouldn't want to spend time trying to explain it. Still, it makes me wonder what Ando remembers...

I have been assuming that Sylar got her power, though it's not an easy one to check. But, I don't think Charlie was ever shown to be any kind of super-genius or anything, she just had developed memory powers. I mentioned earlier that if Sylar had seen Mohinder's list, he should be able to remember it. But, if he figures out the computer algorithm that generated the list, I would probably chalk that up to his own determining-how-things-tick ability.

BTW, I notice the comic has been taking the same attitude that so many people who meet a special are freaked out and hateful. And, not just initially surprised at the ability and hesitant because it's unfamiliar and possibly dangerous, but they exhibit a longer term animus that borders on revulsion, even for beneficial powers like healing and even when it's the special's own parents or people he has healed who should be grateful.

I don't buy it. I don't know if it's some attempt to ape the mutant hysteria present in the X-Men books and movies of a while ago or something else, but it just doesn't strike me as a believable characterization of human nature that someone heals his mom's terminal cancer and she treats him like garbage.

[spoiler]
Some other thoughts mostly based on the comics:

How is Wireless getting around? It seems like she has that motorcycle wherever she goes, but she must be buying or stealing plane tickets to cross the country like that.

The comic is more evidence (though we already had plenty) that the emergence of the specials didn't just start a few months ago.

Also, I am glad we are running across more than one character with similar powers. It would strain credibility to have a huge host of characters and no duplicates or near-duplicates. I know writers tend to think in terms of archetypes, but it always bugs me when a show has a large cast, but there's always just one doctor, one technician, one guy with military training, one spoiled snob, etc.

BTW, any thoughts on who Austin is supposed to be in the present-day storyline? He would be coming up on sixty now, though presuming normal adult aging might be a mistake with someone like him. (It would certainly be a poorly justified assumption with someone like Claire, though she's not an adult yet.)[/spoiler]

My wife just mentioned something to me.  She indicated that when Hiro met Charlie the first time, she said a friend had given her the Japanese phrase book.  Hiro mentioned how good her japanese was.  She seemed to know what he was saying despite it not being typical japanese phrases.  Now, I had figured her absorption skill also gave her the abilty to use the knowledge she absorbed with little or no practice, thus her speaking it so well.  But my wife told me she believed that what Hiro didn't know was that HE was the friend that gave her the phrase book, and she spoke it so well because she practiced with him.  She said she thought Charlie treated him like she already knew him.  So Hiro had to go and try to "save" her because a future Hiro already made that choice.  In essence, he can't truly change the past because whatever the event he's trying to change already happened despite him trying to change it.

Yes, that rather confused me.  Because she did have the phrase book which Hiro himself gave her on the one hand, yet on the other, the picture of her birthday does not have Hiro there until he jumps back.

A bad inconsistency, IMO.

QuoteFirst, I was pretty sure that Sylar still wound up killing Charlie. not that the tumor got her.
Hasn't it been confirmed that she's a victim despite Hiro's intervention?

Yes, he did.  Even if you ignore the comics, Mohinder mentions it after that episode when he's talking to the FBI.

Quote from: stumpy on March 29, 2007, 02:11:57 PM
BTW, I notice the comic has been taking the same attitude that so many people who meet a special are freaked out and hateful. And, not just initially surprised at the ability and hesitant because it's unfamiliar and possibly dangerous, but they exhibit a longer term animus that borders on revulsion, even for beneficial powers like healing and even when it's the special's own parents or people he has healed who should be grateful.

I don't buy it. I don't know if it's some attempt to ape the mutant hysteria present in the X-Men books and movies of a while ago or something else, but it just doesn't strike me as a believable characterization of human nature that someone heals his mom's terminal cancer and she treats him like garbage.

Yup yup. I want to meet someone who sees a power demonstrated and goes "COOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL!"

Quote from: stumpy
[spoiler]
Some other thoughts mostly based on the comics:

How is Wireless getting around? It seems like she has that motorcycle wherever she goes, but she must be buying or stealing plane tickets to cross the country like that.

The comic is more evidence (though we already had plenty) that the emergence of the specials didn't just start a few months ago.

Also, I am glad we are running across more than one character with similar powers. It would strain credibility to have a huge host of characters and no duplicates or near-duplicates. I know writers tend to think in terms of archetypes, but it always bugs me when a show has a large cast, but there's always just one doctor, one technician, one guy with military training, one spoiled snob, etc.

BTW, any thoughts on who Austin is supposed to be in the present-day storyline? He would be coming up on sixty now, though presuming normal adult aging might be a mistake with someone like him. (It would certainly be a poorly justified assumption with someone like Claire, though she's not an adult yet.)[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Edited to add: In this day of internet tickets, it would be easy as pie for Hana to simply create the tickets she needs to go somewhere.


As for Austin,  he's Linderman.  Age range is right, and Linderman has a power.

Edited to add: Confirmed.

http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/default.aspx

Quote from: Michael Auselio
Question: Do you know what Linderman's special power is on Heroes?— Dan
Ausiello: You know what show I miss, Dan? Carnivale. That Ben Hawkins was one fascinating dude. Oh, the things he could do with his mind....

For those of you unfamiliar with the show, Ben Hawkins could heal...
[/spoiler]

That's my guess as well.

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 29, 2007, 06:06:11 PM

As for Austin,  he's Linderman.  Age range is right, and Linderman has a power.

Edited to add: Confirmed.

http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/default.aspx

Quote from: Michael Auselio
Question: Do you know what Linderman's special power is on Heroes?— Dan
Ausiello: You know what show I miss, Dan? Carnivale. That Ben Hawkins was one fascinating dude. Oh, the things he could do with his mind....

For those of you unfamiliar with the show, Ben Hawkins could heal...

Also, Austin looks almost exactly like a younger Malcolm McDowell. 
http://heroeswiki.com/images/c/c7/AustinLindermanMalcomMcDowell.JPG
[/spoiler]

Nice catch, on the look alike Conduit. It does look like that was exactly the reference they were using to draw him.

Who is Austin?!

Austin is a character from the online comic. He hasn't made an appearance on the show itself (yet).

[spoiler]At least not as a present-day character. In the comic, he is a healer (heals others, we don't know about self) and appears as part of a flashback. He was in Viet Nam with a character who Wireless is investigating as part of her quest to help out HRG. We don't know his whole role yet.[/spoiler]

Win a chance to see the episode before everone else at Universal Theme Parks:

http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/contest/

(Of course the 2 minute episode preview doesn't hurt either :) )

Woo!

I just caught up on the comics, and they've answered quite a few questions!

In case you don't read them:

[spoiler]
Linderman is the head of the mysterious organization, and his partner was Mr. Petrelli.  Yep, that's right, the two co-founded the Company.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
They may have founded the company, but it must be pretty independent now.  Previews of the next episode have made it clear that Linderman wants Peter to explode and destroy Manhattan, in the hope that it will unite the world.  The company, meanwhile, instead of sitting back and letting things happen, has tried to capture Peter.  They also gave Isaac a gun (and not some sort of non-lethal weapon) and told him to "save the world."  If they want Peter to explode, that's a HUGE risk to take.
[/spoiler]

Responding to something posted a while back.

Quote from: stumpy on March 29, 2007, 02:11:57 PM
BTW, I notice the comic has been taking the same attitude that so many people who meet a special are freaked out and hateful. And, not just initially surprised at the ability and hesitant because it's unfamiliar and possibly dangerous, but they exhibit a longer term animus that borders on revulsion, even for beneficial powers like healing and even when it's the special's own parents or people he has healed who should be grateful.

I don't buy it. I don't know if it's some attempt to ape the mutant hysteria present in the X-Men books and movies of a while ago or something else, but it just doesn't strike me as a believable characterization of human nature that someone heals his mom's terminal cancer and she treats him like garbage.

I'd like to point out that Austin's parents and Dallas are the ONLY people on this show or in the comics who have had that reaction.  Except for when the special in question was Ted (completely understandable, I'd be scared of him too).  This is probably just an indication of the character of those particular people.  But, yeah, if a significant amount of other people reacted like that, it would be unbelievable.

Quote from: bredon7777 on March 29, 2007, 06:06:11 PM
Yup yup. I want to meet someone who sees a power demonstrated and goes "COOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL!"

Zach had that reaction in the first episode.  I believe his exact words were, "Besides the fact that that was so gross I almost fudged myself, this is the single coolest thing to happen to this town in a hundred years."

Quote from: Conduit on April 18, 2007, 07:40:01 PMI'd like to point out that Austin's parents and Dallas are the ONLY people on this show or in the comics who have had that reaction.

Good point, but it's also worth noting that it's not like we have many examples of people reacting who were cool with it, either. We have almost no special characters where ordinary people (non-specials and non-special hunters like HRG or Mohinder) know they are special. I obviously can't read their minds, but I get the impression that 1) many specials are upset to find they have powers (we've seen plenty of this) and 2) they think others would react similarly and keep it on the DL. E.g., I get the impression that Nathan has never told anyone (he almost wouldn't even admit it to Peter), including his wife or mom (though she probably knew, as did Papa Petrelli).

I will concede that Ando thought Hiro's power was cool (at least for gambling and voyeurism), but I am not 100% convinced he is really a normal civilian, either.

Interesting tidbit I just learned.  Apparently a scene deleted from one of the first episodes of the series showed a police officer who Sylar had killed by freezing him solid.

I'm definitely hoping many of these scenes get restored for the DVD's.  Other scenes I've scene referenced also help answer questions many have had.

EDIT:  In a scene from Monday's episode (Yes, that's right, only two more days!)

[spoiler]
Nathan's mother mentions to Claire, in insisting that she leave the country until she's deemed old enough to make her own decisions, that she herself once decided to "join the madness."

There seems to me to be a hint that the grandmother has powers (which explains how most of here descendants do, since the father did not) as well as further hinting in her own involvement in the Company.
[/spoiler]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the possibility of Sylar absorbing not only Charlie's ability, but her blood clot issue as well.  This may be the very reason that future Hiro told Peter to save Claire, because with Claire's ability, he would be able to survive such a thing.  Another possibility is that present Hiro's time-traveling is purposely guided by his future self, which may explain why he is unable to control his time traveling at the moment.  It just seems to me that it is guiding him to where he needs to be rather then where he wants to be and there has to be some intelligent force behind that.

But I do think that Sylar, with Charlie's ability, will eventually develop the same issue she had, mostly likely because Charlie's ability may have been the cause of her blood clot in her brain.

On another note, I think that Peter may absorb Ted's ability intentionally in order to gain some edge over Sylar.  So far, all of Peter's offensive abilities have come from Sylar, most of the other abilities that he has which Sylar doesn't are not going to give him much of an edge in a fight, though they would be useful against him.  I think Peter will reason that by absorbing Ted's abilities and learning to control them will enable him to annihilate Sylar.

Less then 24 hours to find out what happens...

Actually, it seems we already know that not to be true.

First of all, Hiro's time freeze is definitely an offensive power or can be.  It can even be used to reverse time on certain objects, doing things like causing guns to explode because their bullets went backward.  Peter hasn't figured that out yet, but Hiro's done it once.

Secondly, according to Peter's dream, he absorbs Ted's power accidently when he's in the area.  Peter also is on a quest NOT to explode.  He already knows whose power will cause it, so I doubt he'd purposely go anyway near the guy.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on April 23, 2007, 05:30:46 AM
Secondly, according to Peter's dream, he absorbs Ted's power accidently when he's in the area.  Peter also is on a quest NOT to explode.  He already knows whose power will cause it, so I doubt he'd purposely go anyway near the guy.

He does?  I don't recall Peter ever meeting or even hearing about Ted.  I suppose he might remember how the power worked from his dream, but he won't be able to indentify it unless Ted demonstrates it for him.

Yes, he did.  In his dream, he saw Ted and then exploded and commented that it was Ted had too much power for him to control.

This was a later glimpse of the dream, I believe.

No no no.  In no version of the dream did he ever see Ted.  Trust me.  You can watch Fallout and Godsend over again and see for yourself (better make it quick though, because they're probably going to be taken off the site tomorrow).

In the version of the dream in Godsend, Peter did run up to Nathan and say that he took "his" power and that he couldn't control it, but there's no indication that Peter has any idea who "he" is.

He did indeed see Ted in one of his dream, I'm positive.  I think it's when he started to go berserk again and Claude knocked him out.  I don't think it was in either episode you mentioned.

He didn't see Ted in that episode either.  I just watched that part again to be sure.  All Peter saw that time was a quick flash of himself exploding.

Well, I know I saw it somewhere.  It was only for a split second, so it's no wonder a lot of folks missed it.

Well, I'm totally sure I didn't see it.  If possible, could you look through the episodes tonight and tell me where exactly it was, and maybe provide a screenshot?

For one thing, I'll be at work.

Should I even see it in the future, I'll attempt to do so.

(In other words, I have other things to do than to prove I'm right.  There may even be a chance I'm wrong anyways.)

EDIT:

I just saw the newest episode, and all I have to say is, wow!

Some highlights:

[spoiler]
1.  Nice Peter vs. Sylar fight.  Sylar wins, although Mohinder makes sure that victor is short-lived, but still pretty sweet.  Sylar proves that he's more experienced at this, though.

2.  It's confirmed that Linderman is in charge of the Company and is the unknown person giving the orders.  For the first time, we actually see the Company helping Linderman further his plans.  HRG had no idea of the connection, though, explaining some of the earlier expressed concerns.

3.  Now we know how Ted gets to New York.  Why doesn't HRG put it all together?

4.  Hiro vs. Future Hiro.  Cool!  And Future Hiro doesn't sound too pleased to see him.

5.  Mohinder's not about to be taken in again, is he?  Sheesh, you'd think he'd learn.
[/spoiler]

I've fallen back on watching this, but tonight's episode was equal parts "Cool" "Cold" and "Saw it Coming"
My thought on Linderman's plot:
[spoiler] Nathan as the pretty boy candidate for the presidency. Linderman as major contributor. Micah as the one who performs vote fraud in the computers to get Nathan elected. One day later, the destruction in NYC and the newly elected spurs the people to hope or so it might be believed. The very fact though,that, Hiro has not only need but training to wield the blade in the grim future proves that obviously, not all is well with the world. I'm sensing a project wide-awake analog, where all specials are hunted by the new government.[/spoiler]

Sword:

[spoiler]
Some spoilers leaked earlier have confirmed exactly that.  And Matt is the one in charge of this project.
[/spoiler]

Oh well.  We'll just have to see.

As for the new episode, I thought it was great, and not just because it's the first new episode in 2 months.

[spoiler]
So Isaac's dead.  We all saw that coming.  This is still different from what Hiro saw in the second episode, because if the body had been there for a week, it would have visibly rotted.  Not to mention it should have long since been discovered by then.  It's interesting to see Sylar's art style.  And scary to think of what he'll be capable of now.

HRG is awesome.  'Nuf said.  I was on the edge of my seat during their entire escape.

The same goes for all of the Petrelli family reunion scenes.  It's great to see the characters actually communicating about what happened for once.

The Peter/Sylar fight was very cool, but it moved too slowly.  Peter should have either attacked Sylar or escaped from the apartment long before he threw the glass.

I've seen the "Peter survives the explosion by using Claire's powers" theory tossed around so much on the internet that even mentioning it on the show is enough to make me mad.  If it's even mentioned in the next episode, I'll throw something at the TV.  It isn't about realism, it's about consistency with the portrayal of the powers.  Peter couldn't regenerate because he had a piece of glass stuck in his brain.  How the heck could he regenerate if every atom of his body was blown out of its molecular bonds and scattered over several thousand square miles?  It's just ridiculous, and it would make Claire and Peter way, way too powerful.

It's pure speculation on Nathan's part, and it's already been demonstrated that Ted is completely unharmed by his own radiation, so they have an established way to make Peter survive, but I needed to get that off my chest.

I can't wait to see the next episode.  It's so awesome, I simply can't think of anything to say about it.
[/spoiler]

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shades of Watchmen, Mr. L thinks he's Ozymandias!

BTW, I am still not liking the long recaps starting out some of the scenes...

[spoiler]
After Mohinder KOed Sylar with the easel, I was screaming, "Now, finish him! Bash his head in while you have a chance! There is a gun laying around there somewhere, grab it and use it!" <sigh> I know there is a storyline that has to happen and Sylar has to get away, but this is just one of those things that makes Mhinder look like an idiot. The writers should have contrived some better way for Sylar to escape. Now, we have to wait and see what sort of dupe Mohinder is played for by Mongul.

No scar for Peter, yet.

Peter (and maybe Matt, too) does a pretty selective job of reading minds. If he really got inside of Nathan and especially Mrs. Petrelli's head, I wonder how he would react. The episode ends before we find out what Peter thinks of the Claire-in-Paris election scheme. I don't think he would be especially happy with it, though it would keep Claire relatively out of Sylar's clutches. My real problem is that it would be tough for Nathan to have any conversation with Peter about that and not be thinking about how he is working with Linderman (who Peter knows as one of his father's mob clients who ADA Nathan was after) and how he is to become President. The idea that Peter picks up on none of that is a little annoying.

In the scene where the illusionist is leaving after snatching Micah and she snarks "cute car" to Jessica, I don't really think Jessica would be so casual about that. She knows that Linderman is after Micah and she knows Linderman rejected her refusal to turn him over; she would be expecting a snatch-and-grab op.

I totally agree that HRG should have made the connection between Isaac's prediction of a nuclear explosion in NYC and Ted going to NYC. Duh.

BTW, Conduit, that's basically what I have been thinking: Peter survives the explosion because he isn't harmed by it, same as Ted doesn't show any harm from the use of his power. There's no need for a different explanation.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy on April 23, 2007, 11:29:19 PM
[spoiler]

In the scene where the illusionist is leaving after snatching Micah and she snarks "cute car" to Jessica, I don't really think Jessica would be so casual about that. She knows that Linderman is after Micah and she knows Linderman rejected her refusal to turn him over; she would be expecting a snatch-and-grab op.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
I strongly disagree.  I think she assumed that Linderman took her threat seriously. 

oh and I am glad I am not the only one who thought of The Watchmen after this episode.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy on April 23, 2007, 11:29:19 PM
Peter (and maybe Matt, too) does a pretty selective job of reading minds. If he really got inside of Nathan and especially Mrs. Petrelli's head, I wonder how he would react. The episode ends before we find out what Peter thinks of the Claire-in-Paris election scheme. I don't think he would be especially happy with it, though it would keep Claire relatively out of Sylar's clutches. My real problem is that it would be tough for Nathan to have any conversation with Peter about that and not be thinking about how he is working with Linderman (who Peter knows as one of his father's mob clients who ADA Nathan was after) and how he is to become President. The idea that Peter picks up on none of that is a little annoying.

Peter isn't like Matt, where it's always on.  He has to consciously switch to Matt's power.  He may not even have figured out how to do that yet (the only time when he used Matt's power was during the "power spazzing" scene in Distractions).  Even if he does know how to switch to Matt's power, he might be choosing not to out of respect for the privacy of his family.
[/spoiler]

Careful, this one is a bombshell:

[spoiler]Sylar was originally the one who was the bomb.  According to the latest graphic novel (which are canon to the show) Future Hiro comments on how Sylar was the bomb and he regenerated when Hiro tried to kill him.  That means that the next hero to be killed by Sylar will be Ted (it has already set to happen).  This is why Hiro wanted Peter to save Claire.  And when Peter, in his vision, refers to "him," he is referring to Sylar and not Ted.  Looks like bigger things are coming.[/spoiler]

I hate how no one mentioned Angela Petrealli's line........

[spoiler]"I knew far before either of you did."
Maybe she was once part of the organization when her husband was still alive??

[/spoiler]

Umm, Nymph, there were several other lines that also indicated that.  Not to mentions some things we already know about her.  You found one oak, but didn't notice the rest of the forest.

Quote from: stumpy on April 23, 2007, 11:29:19 PM
Shades of Watchmen, Mr. L thinks he's Ozymandias!

BTW, I am still not liking the long recaps starting out some of the scenes...

Really?  I quite liked this weeks guest voice.  Maybe they should rotate narrating duties among the cast.

Quote from: stumpy
[spoiler]
After Mohinder KOed Sylar with the easel, I was screaming, "Now, finish him! Bash his head in while you have a chance! There is a gun laying around there somewhere, grab it and use it!" <sigh> I know there is a storyline that has to happen and Sylar has to get away, but this is just one of those things that makes Mhinder look like an idiot. The writers should have contrived some better way for Sylar to escape. Now, we have to wait and see what sort of dupe Mohinder is played for by Mongul. [/spoiler]

[spoiler] Yup. Dumbest smart person on the show, AGAIN. Not to mention that Mohinder took the time to take Peter's body- a huge risk if Sylar is able to wake up.  And yes, Mohinder is going to be played for a fool by Thompson.  I'm starting to wonder if some sort of character assasination is going on here. [/spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy[spoiler]
No scar for Peter, yet. [/spoiler]

[spoiler] While I suppose it was understandable that Nathan and Grandma P didn't know what to do - I lost count of the number of times I yelled "Take the bleep piece of glass out of his head already!".  Still- very nice scene between him and Claire, so I guess I can forgive [/spoiler]

Quote from: stumpy[spoiler]
In the scene where the illusionist is leaving after snatching Micah and she snarks "cute car" to Jessica, I don't really think Jessica would be so casual about that. She knows that Linderman is after Micah and she knows Linderman rejected her refusal to turn him over; she would be expecting a snatch-and-grab op.[/spoiler]

[spoiler] I have no doubt that Jessica would be expecting a smash and grab job. Not a trick.  Shed be expecting to come home and find the house wrecked and Micah gone; not the house locked up and appearing to be in perfect order.  And given that she doesnt know about the shape shifter, I didn't have a problem with her not getting it. Also, keep in mind that we haven't seen her reaction yet- the glare she gave Constance was a little suspicous, sure- but I don't expect her to go through the roof until she goes inside the house and finds Micah gone.  Also, this needed to happen for the planned merging of Niki/Jessica- they needed to find some common ground, and the only thing they agree on is the need to protect Micah.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
I assume the way to kill Sylar is on the canvas Issac sent to Nathan- under the duplicate painting of Nathan in the Oval office that hangs in Linderman's vault (BTW- Love, loved loved: "Well, next time you see him, tell him I want my sword back").  However, why on Earth didn't Sylar get Issacs art ability when he ate his brain- Peter got it. [/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Oh, and I dont know who else is playing the online game, but I found the shout out we got last night amusing - since WE (those of us playing the game) are the reason Lindermans first plan to rig the election went down the tubes  :D ) [/spoiler]

Quote from: OutsiderNo11 on April 24, 2007, 05:35:05 AM
Careful, this one is a bombshell:

[spoiler]Sylar was originally the one who was the bomb.  According to the latest graphic novel (which are canon to the show) Future Hiro comments on how Sylar was the bomb and he regenerated when Hiro tried to kill him.  That means that the next hero to be killed by Sylar will be Ted (it has already set to happen).  This is why Hiro wanted Peter to save Claire.  And when Peter, in his vision, refers to "him," he is referring to Sylar and not Ted.  Looks like bigger things are coming.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Yes, except that Sylar has been made a series regualr for next season, which pretty much takes any potential suspense out of it.  I understand that their adopting the comic book model, but really, I still think making him a regular was a huge mistake. [/spoiler]

Quote
[spoiler]I assume the way to kill Sylar is on the canvas Issac sent to Nathan- under the duplicate painting of Nathan in the Oval office that hangs in Linderman's vault (BTW- Love, loved loved: "Well, next time you see him, tell him I want my sword back").  However, why on Earth didn't Sylar get Issacs art ability when he ate his brain- Peter got it.[/spoiler]

Umm, did you miss the scene with

[spoiler]
Isaac lying dead on the floor while Sylar is using his powers to paint?
[/spoiler]

Prediction time:

[spoiler]The picture Isaac painted of Nathan in the White House is not Nathan at all. It's Sylar after he's stolen the illusion chick's power and taken Nathan's identity. He'll be the one elected president.

Did you notice that when Sylar used Isaac's power the figure in the painting looked more like a crude representation of himself than it did of Nathan?[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on April 24, 2007, 07:43:59 AM

Quote
[spoiler]I assume the way to kill Sylar is on the canvas Issac sent to Nathan- under the duplicate painting of Nathan in the Oval office that hangs in Linderman's vault (BTW- Love, loved loved: "Well, next time you see him, tell him I want my sword back").  However, why on Earth didn't Sylar get Issacs art ability when he ate his brain- Peter got it.[/spoiler]

Umm, did you miss the scene with

[spoiler]
Isaac lying dead on the floor while Sylar is using his powers to paint?
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
I said ART ability, not "future prediciting" ability.  Did you SEE the painting? I work with several kids under 10, all of whom could produce a better looking painting than that. Peter went from doodling to competent artist while he was using Issac's ability, I just find it odd Sylar didn't do the same. [/spoiler]

[spoiler]No, he didn't.  All Peter painted was a bunch of red blood and a couple of other details.  He had the simplest part of the painting, as 80% of it was already finished.

And I didn't think Sylar's was that bad.  A harsher, darker style, true, but not horrible.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on April 24, 2007, 07:50:50 AM

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on April 24, 2007, 07:43:59 AM

Quote
I assume the way to kill Sylar is on the canvas Issac sent to Nathan- under the duplicate painting of Nathan in the Oval office that hangs in Linderman's vault (BTW- Love, loved loved: "Well, next time you see him, tell him I want my sword back").  However, why on Earth didn't Sylar get Issacs art ability when he ate his brain- Peter got it.

Umm, did you miss the scene with

Isaac lying dead on the floor while Sylar is using his powers to paint?

I said ART ability, not "future prediciting" ability.  Did you SEE the painting? I work with several kids under 10, all of whom could produce a better looking painting than that. Peter went from doodling to competent artist while he was using Issac's ability, I just find it odd Sylar didn't do the same.

Like catwhowalksbyhimself said, Peter did not absorb Isaac's artistic talent.  You can clearly see that the portion of Isaac's painting that was finished by Peter was far worse than Isaac's paintings of Claire.  Indeed Tim Sale (the artist who creates the paintings in real life) stated in an interview that he purposely drew that part in a more "amateurish" style.

Quote from: Zapow on April 24, 2007, 07:48:56 AM
Prediction time:

The picture Isaac painted of Nathan in the White House is not Nathan at all. It's Sylar after he's stolen the illusion chick's power and taken Nathan's identity. He'll be the one elected president.

Did you notice that when Sylar used Isaac's power the figure in the painting looked more like a crude representation of himself than it did of Nathan?

But the illusion powers would only fool people, right?  If they can't fool cameras, it wouldn't take very long at all for Sylar to be discovered.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

QuoteBut the illusion powers would only fool people, right?  If they can't fool cameras, it wouldn't take very long at all for Sylar to be discovered.

We don't really know how her powers work. Maybe they fool electronics too.[/spoiler]

LOL - That's a lot of [spoiler][/spoiler]
I can't read the last 20 posts!  I better get on over to NBC.com and catch up fast!

[spoiler]

Quote from: Zapow on April 24, 2007, 10:20:12 AM

QuoteBut the illusion powers would only fool people, right?  If they can't fool cameras, it wouldn't take very long at all for Sylar to be discovered.

We don't really know how her powers work. Maybe they fool electronics too.

It was stated in the most recent commentary that her power is a mental one.  The actress described her character as an "illusionist" and her ability as "making people see what she wants them to see" in an interview.

Also, it would make sense if, as with most mental abilities, it would be harder to affect multiple people at once.  So affecting a large crowd might be extremely difficult to do.

By the way, if you want to compare the two paintings, you can find Isaac's version here (http://heroeswiki.com/images/9/9c/Lindermans_archives_president.jpg), and Sylar's version here (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c113/sporter05/Sylar.jpg).
[/spoiler]

Here are a couple of thoughts that I posted on the NBC.com forums

[spoiler]Here are a few of my thoughts.

1)As far as why Sylar's painting looked the way it did, my initial thoughts were that he was trying to use the power immediately after gaining it and he hadn't completely mastered it yet, just like what happened right after he took the super hearing. I think its just a matter of figuring out how to use the ability, which is what Sylar's power really is. He can see how things work and can figure them out for himself, as opposed to Peter who can mimic abilities. Peter's painting was better than Sylar's because he was mimicing (sp?) Isaac's ability rather than figuring out how to use it. Once Sylar has a chance to paint more his paintings will get better.


2)Someone asked if Linderman was good or evil.  I think Linderman is the worst kind of evil. He is one of those delusional heroes. He thinks he is doing what is best for humanity and has honorable intentions, but is willing to make astronomical sacrifices of innocent lives to reach those ends. Evil just for the sake of evil is one thing, but how do you stop someone who is convinced that what he is doing is for the greater good? And how do you know he's not right in the end?


3)The only aggrivating factor for me in this episode was, as others have mentioned, Mohinder not finishing off Sylar while he was unconscious. I understand it is necessary for the plot for Sylar to survive, but I found myself shouting at the TV screen "GRAB THE GUN AND PLUG HIM IN THE BACK OF THE HEAD 3 OR 4 TIMES!!!!!!" (But I often do the same thing with any movie where the bad guy has been incapacitated, is lying motionless on the ground and is presumed dead) It just seems to me that Mohinder, better than anyone, knows what Sylar is capable of, and that he must take advantage of any opportunity to take him out of this world to prevent further death and destruction. The previous episode before the break seemed to imply that Mohinder had learned that lesson. It just didn't make sense to me that he wouldn't now take advantage of it when he had the obvious opportunity. 

4)I am beginning to think that the Petrelli boys got their powers from their mother. Mrs. Petrelli implied, in my opinion, that she had powers when she was talking to Claire. She said that she didn't want Claire making the same mistakes she had made (paraphrasing).

Also, something else to think about. Remember the first few episodes where Peter was having premonitions. We know that Peter gets his abilities by absorbing them or mimicing them from people he's been in contact with. Who do we know that has premonitions? Noone yet. I think its Mrs. Petrelli. She does seem to know an aweful lot about everyone. I think that's why.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I don't know about you guys, but I think the whole thing in the difference in paintings had to do with how that person looked at the world. Peter and Iaasic are much clearer thinkers (well... when Iaasic's not high that is) while Silar is insane. It makes sense that a vision filtered through a warped mind would be warped.[/spoiler]

Bingo Tomato, my thoughts exactly.  He's a much darker soul, almost pitch black, and his is a nightmarish vision from a man out of a nightmare.

About the paintings, several of the series writers and the director have stated:

[spoiler]
That Isaac's power an a person's ability to paint are two separate things.  So a person like me who can only do stick figures would, if given Isaacs power, only be able to draw stick figures.

As mentioned before, Peter only used that power twice, once it was stick figures, another time, only a crudely drawn corner of an otherwise finished painting.  Most of what he painted was a puddle of red paint.  That doesn't exactly take a lot of talent.
[/spoiler]

Personally, I think Sylar painted in a strange, frelled up way because he's crazy.  Try poking around the internet for images of paintings done by schizophrenics, and combine that with his poor drawing talents.  Voila, instant creepy masterpiece.

It'll sell for millions on eBay.

As to Linderman being evil...
[spoiler]
Of course he doesn't think he's evil.  No one outside of fiction does.  Sylar doesn't think he's evil, he just thinks other people don't matter: he's a psychopath.  But he wouldn't say "look how delightfully evil I am!"  He might argue that good & evil don't apply to him, that he's beyond such constructs, or that they're artificial in the first place.  Linderman sees himself as a saviour, but one willing to pull an Ozymandias.  I mean, the kind of evil you see in the Emperor from Star Wars, or comics from the Silver Age, where people actually name their own groups the Brotherhood of EVIL mutants or the Masters of EVIL, is really ridiculous.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: Raptor on April 24, 2007, 05:28:43 PM
Here are a couple of thoughts that I posted on the NBC.com forums

[spoiler]
4)I am beginning to think that the Petrelli boys got their powers from their mother. Mrs. Petrelli implied, in my opinion, that she had powers when she was talking to Claire. She said that she didn't want Claire making the same mistakes she had made (paraphrasing).

Also, something else to think about. Remember the first few episodes where Peter was having premonitions. We know that Peter gets his abilities by absorbing them or mimicing them from people he's been in contact with. Who do we know that has premonitions? Noone yet. I think its Mrs. Petrelli. She does seem to know an aweful lot about everyone. I think that's why.[/spoiler]

I think you are dead on the money with this thought.
:spoiler:

Y'know my prediction for the explosion for quite a while has been this ... Sylar kills Ted and the illusion projecting chick, takes on Peter's form to get close to the rest of the heroes, but loses control of Ted's powers. Nathan sacrificies himself by flying him out of the city to explode in space, the desert, etc.

However, after finding out Sylar is a regular in next season, I wouldn't have a clue where the plot is going. I hope the writers do.

Can't say I'm overly stoked with the writers paying so much "homage" to Watchmen either.

Anybody read anything about the ratings slump the last episode experienced? Down 2 million viewers apparently.

I think the ratings drop is mostly because of the long hiatus.  Even I almost forgot about it.  The last time they at least kept rerunning episodes, this time, they kept putting other things in it's place, most of them particularly uninteresting.

In fact, I went several weeks without even remembering the show existed.  If it wasn't for a comment posted to this site, I probably would have forgotten completely and missed the new episode myself.  I don't really watch NBC much otherwise.

Every review I've seen of the episode was very good, and most people here liked it, so I don't think it was that.

Linderman reminds me too much of Magneto.  Anybody else notice this?

I don't see that at all.  Linderman never said anything about discrimination against specials.  Which really isn't an issue in Heroes since the public doesn't know they exist.

He does, however, remind me a lot of Ozymandius from Watchmen.

Quote from: JeyNyce on April 25, 2007, 07:39:57 AM
Linderman reminds me too much of Magneto.  Anybody else notice this?

Magneto is in many ways an archetype of a delusional hero/villain in that the person is committing all these wrong acts but believes that what he is doing is for the betterment of his people or the world. Linderman seems very much to be just like this and I think that is probably & hopefully where the similarities end. As long as his past doesn't involve Nazis I think it should be fine. This is also the setup of Ozymandius (whom I think Linderman is way more close to than Mags) in Watchmen and many other characters that exist. Even in an extreme view Doctor Doom falls in this category as he reasons that he should rule the world simply because he is the simply most capable and worthy person of doing so thus the world would be a better place under his authority.

Hmm... just how big is Linderman's actual ego? Perhaps he will start talking in third person! heh

Quote
       Cross-cultural comparisons of the world's myths have uncovered striking similarities in themes, structures, images, and characters; "in the types of phenomena they seek to explain and the types of questions they address" ("Myth" 284).  These cross-cultural similarities raise provocative questions: Do certain universal myths, or "monomyths," organize and connect the mythic narratives and their literary forms across different cultures, past and present, around the world?   Why do these similarities occur?  Do all human beings inherit a common, if unconscious, set of mythic figures, forces, patterns, implications, and structures from our common ancestors?

I think we have a sort of monomyth thing going on in geek media (scifi, fantasy, comics, etc.) in that certain themes and ideas are always showing up. Yes there are variations and new interpretations but basically there are no truly original ideas out there just new & unique ways to represent or combine them. The individual elements have already been shown in other forms or even classic works. After all comics with their superheroes and such are simply a modern version of the old hero stories & tales of people like Hercules, Pecos Bill, Aladdin, Sampson, The Monkey King, Thor, etc.

In some cases it is simply pure coincidence between things & themes of the show in others tributes & nods to other media. It is hard to know for sure without talking to the creator & writers themselves.

[spoiler]
Re: The theory about Sylar impersonating Nathan in the future.

In one of the preview clips for the next episode, Hiro mentions that HRG is hiding Candace.  Therefore Sylar hasn't acquired her powers.  [/spoiler]

I think that Mrs Petrelli could be Linderman's sister. As interested in future events as he is, it would make sense to have a connection to it all.

This latest episode confirmed what I said earlier...thus far there is no evidence to show that any of the specials are born from non special parents.

Quote from: thalaw2 on April 26, 2007, 07:36:48 PM
This latest episode confirmed what I said earlier...thus far there is no evidence to show that any of the specials are born from non special parents.

hold on, though.  Jessica/Nikki, D.L. and Parkman  . . . not to mention Ted and Hannah all have no indication that they are born of "special parents". 

No, I think plenty of specials are born from non-specials--but having one special parent makes it extremely like that you will be, and having two makes it certain,

Just rewatched my tape...

[spoiler]

Anyone else dissapointed that Eden's sacrifice turned out to be in vain? :( [/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on April 27, 2007, 09:03:01 PM
Just rewatched my tape...

Anyone else dissapointed that Eden's sacrifice turned out to be in vain? :(

Huh?  If you're referring to Sylar's weird voice, the writers said in an interview that the audio guys did that simply so it would sound cool.  You'll notice that Isaac did not obey him.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: Conduit on April 27, 2007, 09:59:54 PM
[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on April 27, 2007, 09:03:01 PM
Just rewatched my tape...

Anyone else dissapointed that Eden's sacrifice turned out to be in vain? :(

Huh?  If you're referring to Sylar's weird voice, the writers said in an interview that the audio guys did that simply so it would sound cool.  You'll notice that Isaac did not obey him.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Really? Cause its the exact same echoing theyve used when Eden used her power, and when Peter used it on Issac.

Also, Issac did obey him- Sylar said "Show me", and Issac looked at an empty easel, and Sylar thought he was looking at the gun in front of it, and flicked it away. Issac then said "It's too late. Its already gone." Telling him, since he could no longer show him.

Then Sylar says "Why don't you tell me all about it then?" but he says it in a normal voice.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on April 28, 2007, 07:58:11 AM

Quote from: Conduit on April 27, 2007, 09:59:54 PM

Quote from: bredon7777 on April 27, 2007, 09:03:01 PM
Just rewatched my tape...

Anyone else dissapointed that Eden's sacrifice turned out to be in vain? :(

Huh?  If you're referring to Sylar's weird voice, the writers said in an interview that the audio guys did that simply so it would sound cool.  You'll notice that Isaac did not obey him.

Really? Cause its the exact same echoing theyve used when Eden used her power, and when Peter used it on Issac.

Also, Issac did obey him- Sylar said "Show me", and Issac looked at an empty easel, and Sylar thought he was looking at the gun in front of it, and flicked it away. Issac then said "It's too late. Its already gone." Telling him, since he could no longer show him.

Then Sylar says "Why don't you tell me all about it then?" but he says it in a normal voice.

Peter didn't use it on Isaac.  And it's not exactly the same as Eden's voice sound effect.  In fact, it's substantially different.  There's a discussion of it on this page (http://heroeswiki.com/Empathic_mimicry), in the notes section, with sound samples of Peter's echoing voice (which is the same as Sylar's) and Eden's.

If Sylar has Eden's power and didn't use it when he told Isaac to tell him about it (not to mention countless other times), then he's dumber than Mohinder.  And is there any reason to believe that Isaac WASN'T looking at the gun?  Because I thought that that was what he was doing.

But really, the audio guys should stop doing that.  It adds only marginally to the scene, and it confuses viewers who don't read about the show on the internet.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]It did confuse me too, but it's already been well established by the writers that Sylar definitely does NOT have Eden's powers.  Using that sound effect was a very bad idea.[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on April 28, 2007, 09:20:37 AM
[spoiler]It did confuse me too, but it's already been well established by the writers that Sylar definitely does NOT have Eden's powers.  Using that sound effect was a very bad idea.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I don't think so.  I always interpreted that voice as another power that Sylar picked up somewhere else along the way and he uses it whenever he wants to freak someone out and show himself as even more powerful.  Sylar is attempting to become a god by collecting all these powers, so it would make sense for him to sound like one.[/spoiler]

Yes, but that is just too confusing for the audience.  Read the comments here and elsewhere.  A LOT of people, including me, were VERY confused by that.

With all the Heroes/Watchmen controversery still pretty fresh, I was looking at the synopsis for an upcoming episode which sounds really similar to Days of Future Past (classic X-Men storyline).

What does everyone think of this? Homage or a few desperate scriptwriters pillaging the best ideas from Alan Moore, Chris Claremont, et al?

Logical end to the current storyline, actually.

Even if it's similar, it's the only outcome that makes sense.

Woo hoo!  Intense!  And the most comic book-like of all the episodes.  Congrats to whoever it was that predicted that

[spoiler]President Nathan is really Sylar.  Nice one![/spoiler]

This episode answers a LOT of questions.

Now, one very important one remains.

How do you stop an exploding man?

Interesting episode...

[spoiler]
even though it's entirely inconsequential, since Hiro ends up going back in time to make more changes.  Still, we get some cool moments, like Hiro & Peter throwing down with homeland security agents.  We get some more evidence about certain powers as well, like the survivability of going nuclear for the person in question, illusion girl's ability fooling cameras, and the Haitian being a power dampener for sure, not just an psychic who shuts down people's minds.
[/spoiler]

Anyone else catch the plot hole the size of Cleveland in the episode?

And no, I'm not going to say what it is.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on April 30, 2007, 06:38:40 PM
Logical end to the current storyline, actually.

Even if it's similar, it's the only outcome that makes sense.

Woo hoo!  Intense!  And the most comic book-like of all the episodes.  Congrats to whoever it was that predicted that

[spoiler]President Nathan is really Sylar.  Nice one![/spoiler]

This episode answers a LOT of questions.

Now, one very important one remains.

How do you stop an exploding man?

Woo hoo! I called it!

Quote from: Jakew on April 30, 2007, 06:25:51 PM
With all the Heroes/Watchmen controversery still pretty fresh, I was looking at the synopsis for an upcoming episode which sounds really similar to Days of Future Past (classic X-Men storyline).

What does everyone think of this? Homage or a few desperate scriptwriters pillaging the best ideas from Alan Moore, Chris Claremont, et al?

After watching tonight episode I think it was a lot of homage to comic fans.  I saw a lot of X-men/ Watchmen moments.

And now, some heavily disjointed thoughts on tonight's episode, that most of those who saw will agree with

1)Parkman? You Traitor!
2)Same old Mohindar, Big New Job
3) Those two hooked up? Would never have guessed.
4)Of course Claire's alive...for how long?
5)Ok, that...I called that. Dang you Sylar!
6)Mohindar=Biggest hero of all?
7) Who in the name of Jeph Loeb did sylar kill to get that power?  Same question on Peter's side, but who did he copy?
8) Go Hiro! You Did It!
9)Ok, sure cheerleader saved, Sylar can't regenerate. But why not Save Ted? Is there going to be a brawl with Ted Sylar and Peter that "forces" Peter to go nuclear?

Wow.  Just wow.  That was one of, if not the best episode yet.

[spoiler]
It's great that we go to learn more about future Hiro.  It's understandable how he changed so much, and yet you can still see some of the old Hiro in him.  I'm not sure which Hiro I prefer, but I don't want Ando to die.

HRG hides DL and Candace and they both end up as Sylar food?  He's really lost his touch over the years.

Mohinder, meanwhile, got a smidgen of his intelligence back.  He actually did some good and quite possibly prevented a rift in the spacetime continuum.  Though it's hilarious to see him get duped by Sylar AGAIN.

Speaking of which, I'm very dissapointed in the writers.  They stated in no uncertain terms in an interview that Candace was an illusionist.  They compared her to Mastermind.  They should have realized that Sylar would need to fool cameras and large crowds with her abilities and made it clear she projected holograms or something.  That was the only dissapointing part of that storyline, however.  The build up and reveal were extremely well done.

And that scene where Sylar/Nathan's speech was shown over the fight at homeland security?  Awesome, 'nuf said.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Conduit on April 30, 2007, 08:08:35 PMSpeaking of which, I'm very dissapointed in the writers.  They stated in no uncertain terms in an interview that Candace was an illusionist.  They compared her to Mastermind.  They should have realized that Sylar would need to fool cameras and large crowds with her abilities and made it clear she projected holograms or something.  That was the only dissapointing part of that storyline, however.  The build up and reveal were extremely well done.

Illusions don't automatically mean mental illusions. If someone has the power to, for example, manipulate light to create images, those images are still illusions.[/spoiler]

Great ep, and now to answer a question:

Quote from: Sword on April 30, 2007, 07:36:54 PM
7) Who in the name of Jeph Loeb did sylar kill to get that power?  Same question on Peter's side, but who did he copy?

Think back to the third or fourth episode, the one who introduced Matt the Psychic. The FBI's investigating a double murder, the parents of Molly Walker. One of their heads were cut open and
[spoiler]
frozen, which means either one of her parents had cryokinesis, or he got that power earlier. Also, this is proof positive that Sylar has frost powers, and not just "slowing- down- molecules- with- telekinesis" powers. WOOT!
[/spoiler]

Pete must have met Clair's mom sometime during the previous 5 years, or has finally mastered Ted's power.

Regarding the episode and the preview for next episode:

[spoiler]Unless Peter meets Ted in the next episode or two, I don't see how he can be the bomb.

The plothole the size of Cleveland I mentioned? Sylar being alive in the future. Future Hiro said he stabbed Sylar and conjectured that since they didn't save Claire, it must've been due to Sylar having her regenerating powers (since they didn't know at the time that Claire was still alive). If Sylar didn't have Claire's power, how did he survive? Unless they do more scenes in that future and explain it or reveal it one of the graphic novels (which is a bad idea, since not everyone reads them), its a plothole.

Molly being the one person who can stop Sylar? Ummm....no. Unless her power is the ability to shut down others' powers or some sort of psychic ability that would let her control Sylar's mind....or erase it....I don't think so. And frankly, it would be a cop-out if Sylar was defeated by a character who had only appeared IN ONE FREAKIN' EPISODE and was an afterthought between then and now.[/spoiler]

My theory about how Sylar gets defeated:

[spoiler]1. He runs into Peter again, but since he doesn't have the drop on him this time, Peter fights back. There are any number of ways that Peter could kill Sylar, even turning his own telekinetic can (head) opener trick on him or even using Hiro's power to freeze time, grab Sylar and fly up a few thousand feet in the air, let him go and restart time (remember: Hiro was able to pick up a little girl and move her out of the way of a speeding vehicle once). Its too bad Peter hasn't met Claire's mom, because I'd really love to see him roast Sylar alive.

2. He tries to use his power to kill Hiro, but Andro jumps in the way, trying to sacrifice himself to save Hiro. Hiro realizes what's happening, freezes time, then uses the sword on Sylar while time is still frozen.

3. In a major twist, Nathan sacrifices himself to save Peter (or Claire) by doing what I mentioned in #1, but without the time freeze; ie, grabbing Sylar, flying up high, and dropping him.

4. In a severe major twist, Sylar gets shot in the back of the head while fighting someone or trying to kill them.....by Mohinder. (Yeah, right!)

I realize there's little chance of #3 or 4 happening.[/spoiler]

Quote from: GhostMachine on April 30, 2007, 09:48:13 PM
Regarding the episode and the preview for next episode:

[spoiler]Unless Peter meets Ted in the next episode or two, I don't see how he can be the bomb.

The plothole the size of Cleveland I mentioned? Sylar being alive in the future. Future Hiro said he stabbed Sylar and conjectured that since they didn't save Claire, it must've been due to Sylar having her regenerating powers (since they didn't know at the time that Claire was still alive). If Sylar didn't have Claire's power, how did he survive? Unless they do more scenes in that future and explain it or reveal it one of the graphic novels (which is a bad idea, since not everyone reads them), its a plothole.

Molly being the one person who can stop Sylar? Ummm....no. Unless her power is the ability to shut down others' powers or some sort of psychic ability that would let her control Sylar's mind....or erase it....I don't think so. And frankly, it would be a cop-out if Sylar was defeated by a character who had only appeared IN ONE FREAKIN' EPISODE and was an afterthought between then and now.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Not a plot hole.  Remember, future Hiro see's Hiro and basically says, what are you doing here, you were supposed to stab Sylar.  Hiro hasn't and presumably in this timeline, wasn't going to stab Sylar.  The only reason why he's going to now is that his future self and the drawing are telling him to.  We also don't know what Molly's power is, but it must be a doozy.  Remember, Hiro specifically asked HRG for her help in his rescue attempt.  And about Ted--he's headed to New York as of last episode, so it's very likely that two will run into each other.[/spoiler]

Quote from: GhostMachine on April 30, 2007, 09:48:13 PM
My theory about how Sylar gets defeated:

[spoiler]1. He runs into Peter again, but since he doesn't have the drop on him this time, Peter fights back. There are any number of ways that Peter could kill Sylar, even turning his own telekinetic can (head) opener trick on him or even using Hiro's power to freeze time, grab Sylar and fly up a few thousand feet in the air, let him go and restart time (remember: Hiro was able to pick up a little girl and move her out of the way of a speeding vehicle once). Its too bad Peter hasn't met Claire's mom, because I'd really love to see him roast Sylar alive.

2. He tries to use his power to kill Hiro, but Andro jumps in the way, trying to sacrifice himself to save Hiro. Hiro realizes what's happening, freezes time, then uses the sword on Sylar while time is still frozen.

3. In a major twist, Nathan sacrifices himself to save Peter (or Claire) by doing what I mentioned in #1, but without the time freeze; ie, grabbing Sylar, flying up high, and dropping him.

4. In a severe major twist, Sylar gets shot in the back of the head while fighting someone or trying to kill them.....by Mohinder. (Yeah, right!)

I realize there's little chance of #3 or 4 happening.[/spoiler]

Sorry, but

[spoiler]Sylar WILL NOT be defeated.  As a matter of fact, he's been upgraded to main cast member for Season 2.[/spoiler]

When did Sylar use freezing power in this episode?  I must have missed it.  And really, there are lots of ways to defeat Sylar, particularly for someone who can stop time.  I mean, if you can stop time, you could basically do anything to him: stab him in every vital organ alphabetically, move him so his head will be under the tire of a moving bus, do a little surgery and put a live grenade in his chest cavity - really, the possibilities are endless.  Stopping time is even worse than super-speed as a way to give writers nightmares.

That news...[spoiler] of Sylar not getting defeated kind of bugs me.  I hope next season isn't just a rehash of this one, trying to stop Sylar [/spoiler]

ok so we kow what "save the cheerleader save the world" means

But like someone said in this thread how do you stop peter from exploding?
could he try and use a cold power from sylar?
if peter can survive the explosion ,why not just fly away far enough to do no damage to his surroundings? i am betting its because he will have to fight sylar-but if hiro succeds i still think peter will explode...hmmmmm

What did isac mean in the previous episode about sylar dying,it was a little vauge any ideas?

What are the chances that Molly Walker.....

[spoiler]a.) has reality warping abilities?
b.) can negate or even destroy someone's powers? (This would look too much like Leech from X-3....because she is kept in this room like chamber.)
c.) kill someone?

I want to vote for B but knowing that Sylar will be a main cast member in Season 2......She might be killed.[/spoiler]

Sorry, Nymph, but the Hatian already can do that, and I see no reason for a repeat character.

I am disappointed in the writers keeping Sylar for next season (unless it was a fake leak to the entertainment media).  Why?  Because unless they drastically change that character's attitude, then it's back to where we started in Season 1 with Sylar roaming around killing people for brains.  He's already quite powerful and any additional powers may make him near unstoppable.  So for next season to be good with regards to Sylar, it has to do one of the two things:

1) Either disable most of Sylar's powers and he ends up becoming a support character for the Company (being able to see the genetic difference and all).

-or-

2) He alters his attitude about taking people's powers and decides that only certain kinds of people don't deserve their powers (those who hate their powers, for instance).

Personally, keeping him on as a main villain is a dumb idea since there are plenty of possibilities for future villains.  If you've seen the latest graphic novel, it ends with some possibilities right there.  The two possibilities I mentioned above also are ultimately lame because number 1 puts him on the sidelines and number 2 makes him into a kind of anti-hero.

Bottom line: Sylar should die and they should be done with it.

It must be early because I'm getting weird random throughts.

What would happen if Sylar tries to take Jessica/Nikki and the secondary personality was part of the powers package?

Quote from: Glitch Girl on May 01, 2007, 06:45:38 AM
It must be early because I'm getting weird random throughts.

What would happen if Sylar tries to take Jessica/Nikki and the secondary personality was part of the powers package?

Niki's powers may just be similar to Gladiator of the Shi'ar.  She may just get super strength due to confidence in herself.  The Jessica personality is just a case of multiple-personality disorder brought on by her father's abuse when she was child.

[spoiler]Ummm... this just might be silly tomato talking again... but Sylar being in season 2 doesn't NESCESSARILY mean he isn't going to die or that he won't be a bad guy anymore. Isaac predicted his death, and given that he not only saw the future, but also (conjecturing) the changes to the future Hiro made(He saw Sylar dying even though Hiro didn't attempt to come back to do it until after the events in the last episode) means that his version is probably accurate.

All him being in Season 2 means is they won't get around to killing him until after they stop Peter from exploding[/spoiler]

Tomato:

[spoiler]he's been officially announced as part of the main cast, which means more than just one or two episodes in the beginning.  He's still only considered a guest star now.[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 01, 2007, 06:56:20 AM
Tomato:

[spoiler]he's been officially announced as part of the main cast, which means more than just one or two episodes in the beginning.  He's still only considered a guest star now.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]So just because he's supposed to die means he has to do so in the first few episodes? Pfft, if they've got any brains at all they'll want to stretch this out as long as they can. What's probably going to happen is Hiro will stab him in the next few episodes, Sylar will avoid dying by preparing for the strike because of Isaac's power, SHOCK!

Then in Season 2 we'll find out that Isaac was talking about some other method of actually killing Sylar, and the entire season will be spent trying to kill him. And given Sylar's ego, he'll probably be so wrapped up in his own cleverness after preventing his own "death" that he won't attempt to prevent the second attempt.[/spoiler]

But that still means he'll survive.  The word "survive" does not imply doing so indefinitely, just for now.

Besides, he is not, and will presumable not be next season, the main focus of the show.  Like all the other characters, he's been involved in the main storyline, and has a vital role within it, but is not himself the storyline.  In other words, just another character.  I expect the same to be true next season.

Quote from: OutsiderNo11 on May 01, 2007, 06:04:17 AM
I am disappointed in the writers keeping Sylar for next season (unless it was a fake leak to the entertainment media).  Why?  Because unless they drastically change that character's attitude, then it's back to where we started in Season 1 with Sylar roaming around killing people for brains.  He's already quite powerful and any additional powers may make him near unstoppable.  So for next season to be good with regards to Sylar, it has to do one of the two things:

1) Either disable most of Sylar's powers and he ends up becoming a support character for the Company (being able to see the genetic difference and all).

-or-

2) He alters his attitude about taking people's powers and decides that only certain kinds of people don't deserve their powers (those who hate their powers, for instance).

Personally, keeping him on as a main villain is a dumb idea since there are plenty of possibilities for future villains.  If you've seen the latest graphic novel, it ends with some possibilities right there.  The two possibilities I mentioned above also are ultimately lame because number 1 puts him on the sidelines and number 2 makes him into a kind of anti-hero.

Bottom line: Sylar should die and they should be done with it.

I feel the same way,sylar is (to me) getting old, his character is hardly one step ahead of death(seeing all the times he could have been killed) ,i started not to care about him or how or why he does it right after he was revealed. i dont find him interesting at all

About the illusion powers...

[spoiler]

QuoteSpeaking of which, I'm very dissapointed in the writers.  They stated in no uncertain terms in an interview that Candace was an illusionist.  They compared her to Mastermind.  They should have realized that Sylar would need to fool cameras and large crowds with her abilities and made it clear she projected holograms or something.  That was the only dissapointing part of that storyline, however.  The build up and reveal were extremely well done.

Just spitballing here, but what if Sylar also had the kid's power over electronic devices? Coupled with Candance's powers he could fool people and machines?
[/spoiler]

Wow..just..wow..this was a great episode featuring twists and turns that actually arose naturally from the characters (You listening, LOST? This is how you do it).

[spoiler]
Great conflict between two men both willing to go to any lengths to protect their families. Glad to see it meant HRG continued his journey into reluctant hero.  Sad to see it means that Matt became a villan.

Niki won, and Jessica went away. Heh. Didn't see that coming. Mental health nitpick- not overly realistic; more often than not perosnalities merge, rather than depart.

So Hiro went dark because Ando died. Understandable. BTW "I scare myself", is now my offical favorite line of the season.

Bit of a cheat suddenly having Sylar be adept at using two powers at once, given that he's never done that before, but not impossible. 

Its obvious now that Ted's power doesnt hurt whoever uses it.  That said- thats TWICE now we've been deproved of a kick butt Peter vs Sylar smackdown after a few inital seconds.  I'm going to be upset if it happens a third time.

Future Hiro bought into the lie that Sylar was the bomb. So Present Hiro is trying to change the past based on faulty information. Not good.  That also explains Nathan's odd behavior in the dream- perhaps its Sylar-as-Nathan, having killed both Nathan and Candance.   OOOH! What if it is Sylar -and he SAVES NY by flying Peter off somewhere.

Speaking of Sylar-- given that season 2 is about the descendants and the ancestors of the current crop of heroes, I'm a little less worried about him being a series regular.  I still think its a bad idea, and Sylar needs to die (or at the very least be severely neutered). But I coud cope with Father of Sylar/Son of Sylar both being played by Zach Quinto in order to reduce current Sylar's involvement while keeping Quinto a regular

As for Candace, if her power is "making people see what they want to see", then its not too much of a stretch to include "making people see what they want to see on video" as well.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

• We definitely know that Nathan Petrelli will not likely survive the season.  Unless the twist is that his survival is as crucial to avoiding that future as "saving the cheerleader".
• Peter and Jessica getting together made sense.  If the only reason being because they are both specials and because of the events described in the season.  IE: the death of DL, Micah and Nikki, mainly the death of Micha. Peter is a nurse and could've tried to help her deal with what happened.  They become an item.
• The biggest flaw to me in last's episode was the whole Claire, and Nathan thing.  Yes, he is her biological father.  It's been alluded though that she views Bennett as more of a father figure to her as he raised her.  Her biological father wants nothing to do with her from all indication (unless there is a major shift in that in the next three episodes). I mean he is asking her to leave to country so she doesn't mess up his campaign.  Bennet cares for her even if he is back to being his usual backstabbing morally GRAY self.  (GRAY not GREY, see Sylar's real name.)  In the end though, Bennett still betrayed Claire or at least this was suggested.  Nevertheless, I don't think Claire would be fond of Nathan now.  I defnintely think that Sylar's words to her as Nathan were a giveaway that it was him.  However, the scene where she is looking "lovingly" at Nathan on the TV seemed to mess with all that.  
• Molly's power = Sylar's defeat and also Sylar's semi-redemption?  I mean at this point is there a way for Sylar to become something of "one of the good guys" next season though one that no one fully trusts because of his previous actions.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Zapow on May 01, 2007, 08:01:55 AM
Just spitballing here, but what if Sylar also had the kid's power over electronic devices? Coupled with Candance's powers he could fool people and machines?

That would have been a great explanation, but unfortunately Sylar didn't say that.

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 01, 2007, 08:28:05 AM
As for Candace, if her power is "making people see what they want to see", then its not too much of a stretch to include "making people see what they want to see on video" as well.

Yes it is.  "Making people see what they want to see" indicates that Candace actually affects the minds of people with her powers.  Impersonating Nathan would require affecting millions of people at once from thousands of miles away 24/7.
[/spoiler]

One thing really bugs me. I thought about it last night and I'll put in spoilers to be on the safe side.

[spoiler]There is a slim chance that Future Sylar can or will be able to time travel. Bear with me.

Since Future Hiro is dead (shot in the back I might add), I can easily see Future Sylar going up to Future Hiros' body and opening his skull. "So, you can travel in time? Lets see how that works."[/spoiler]

I hope that I am wrong.

Quote from: KRnut82 on May 01, 2007, 10:42:15 AM
One thing really bugs me. I thought about it last night and I'll put in spoilers to be on the safe side.

[spoiler]There is a slim chance that Future Sylar can or will be able to time travel. Bear with me.

Since Future Hiro is dead (shot in the back I might add), I can easily see Future Sylar going up to Future Hiros' body and opening his skull. "So, you can travel in time? Lets see how that works."[/spoiler]

I hope that I am wrong.

Well, considering the current Hiro will most likely change the past and thus change the future those events will not have taken place and the future sylar would not have that option... Otherwise a huge paradox would arise... and thier would have to be some consequence to the state of the universe... In short I doubt that will happen...

Yeah, I've thought of that too. And I'm actually in full agreement with you.

Buuuut, Hollywood writers usually don't tend to think like us. They can (and will) make up their own rules to suit their needs for any storyline(s).

One mistake many of you are making with the future timeline:

[spoiler]It was stated that HRG was hiding Candace.  Obviously, Sylar had to kill her to take over as Nathan.  Therefore Nathan was already likely President and some of the restrictions of supers already imposed BEFORE Sylar kills Nathan and takes over.  Therefore Nathan's impending death is far from certain.  It is some months or even a year or two before that will happen anyway, and who knows what effects the explosion not happening will have on the timeline.[/spoiler]

Just rewatched my tape- more thoughts:

[spoiler]
We didn't learn how Peter got his scar. :(  Also, given that Sylar couldn't zip open Peter's head fast enough to kill him, how did he zip open Claire's? I find it hard to believe that a copy is a stronger power than the original.

Mohinder, while an idiot, is not a murderer.  While he redeems himself in the last scene, theres no way in heck I buy him going along with a plan to kill everyone with powers.

[/spoiler]

Edited to add: I think "String Theory" is a much stronger title than "Five Years Gone"

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 01, 2007, 06:10:02 PM
Also, given that Sylar couldn't zip open Peter's head fast enough to kill him, how did he zip open Claire's? I find it hard to believe that a copy is a stronger power than the original.

He wasn't expecting Peter to regenerate the first time.  He probably took care to hold the cuts open with TK this time.
[/spoiler]

Gonna do it in order of annoyance -

The Agency - Let it slide, ignore it. That company is run all kinds of wrong...seriously. I know its a government agency, but sheesh.

Peter - The powers he absorbs...does he recall them automatically? Claires healing shouldn't really have worked. The way it was explained a few episodes back by Claude, shouldn't he have to 'recall' how they feel or some such thing? He can't do that very well if hes dead can he? I dunno, it was just something bothering me about .07%

Matt - *shakes head* I...just repeating whats been said. Traitor. And also...why couldn't he tell Nathan was Sylar? You'd think a telepath could tell that &lt;_&lt;

[spoiler]
How supers get treated in the future - Hmm. A few years ago I woulda laughed and said thats not how people act. Now, I'm not so sure.

And can someone PLEASE explain to me how they capture some of these? 90% of the powers we've seen so far have an offensive use. The only one I can think of, offhand, that hasn't been offensive is super-hearing lady. That dude that melts stuff can still be offensive if he can project it at guns and can affect organics. Unless the Haitian can duplicate himself, how are they capturing anybody who doesn't want to be captured? And why is he back with the company, after all that hassle he went to to protect Claire!? Shouldn't he have been shot on sight? :o[/spoiler]

The 'science' behind powers and their inheritence - Lalala, I can't hear you. Accepting, since it IS a good drama, which is mostly why I watch it, and considering the subject, it would be really hard to be believable :lol:.

Hiro's powers - *klaxon sound* AGGGGHHHHH!!! Logic circuits, dying! >< Seriously, this guy is a writers nightmare. [spoiler]He gets taken down so many times in this eppy, and so easily! And I seriously wanna know if this is a self-contained timeline ala Time Travellers Wife (good book, bit soppy) or multiple timelines. Self-contained would make a bit more sense...but not much. Speaking of timelines, when exactly did Sylar kill everybody? :huh:

Being denied yet another Peter/Sylar fight - ...Okay, where's my axe? I got me some producers to kill :P[/spoiler]

Seriously, though, I am loving this series. I'm a bit confused on how they're gonna have Sylar in next series, but I can wait. Sorta. *starts twitching* Dammit I need my fix! :(

[spoiler]

Quote from: Sevenforce on May 02, 2007, 03:27:50 PM
And can someone PLEASE explain to me how they capture some of these? 90% of the powers we've seen so far have an offensive use. The only one I can think of, offhand, that hasn't been offensive is super-hearing lady. That dude that melts stuff can still be offensive if he can project it at guns and can affect organics. Unless the Haitian can duplicate himself, how are they capturing anybody who doesn't want to be captured? And why is he back with the company, after all that hassle he went to to protect Claire!? Shouldn't he have been shot on sight? :o

Dale is the only one whose power wasn't offensive?  What about Claire, Charlie, Isaac, Hana, the dream boy, Sylar (before he stole any powers), Nathan, Micah (unless you have a pacemaker), Claude and Matt?  That's a good half of the specials we've seen so far.  And even among those that have offensive powers, few of them would be able to take out say, an entire SWAT team all by themselves.  Or be confident enough to risk trying.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Like I said, only one I could think of, heh. Was in full vent mode and couldn't see through the axe rage haze brought on by Pete/Sylar denial. Oh, that battles gonna be sooooo sweet... :lol:

Claires power, in and of itself, is not offensive, but can be used offensively. Heck, she could probably pummel the SWAT team to death before they take her down :P Nathan could pick up, fly up, drop. Rinse and repeat. Claude? Come on. Invisibility, without the infra-red goggles, has a practical plethora of offensive uses.

Despite that, (good counterpoint, by the way) my other point still stands for most of them. How, exactly, do you detain someone who can erase all the data relating to them, making tracing them incredibly difficult? Or someone who can fly away? Even super-hearing lady (Dale, was it? Didn't catch her name) could hear you coming, and get away in time, I suppose. Hiro...theres no way you should be able to capture that guy. YES I'm still harping on about him, he ticks me off that much ;)

And thats still a lot of super powered people. There must be thousands of them. How many super prisons can you build in five years? That's even assuming that there is a way of power-dampening without the Haitian, which I'm still a bit iffy about...(see Eve argument a few pages back)

And when you're dealing with people like Sylar and Peter, who are walking armies, and who, in Sylars case, requires a whole team of supers to deal with? No Dice.

P.S. If the show was perfect I'd say it was too perfect. Just saying, one of my many many faults is I am a horrible nitpicker :D

Although one thing I can't complain about...Sylar flying as Nathan. Oh. So. Cool.[/spoiler]

At this point...

[spoiler]
my hope about Sylar & next season is that his full-cast member status is disinformation on the part of the show's producers.  Next season should be about new threats, & Sylar at this point has gone too far & done too much to be redeemable. 
[/spoiler]

Talavar:

[spoiler]Who said anything about Sylar being redeemed?  Main cast does not = good guy.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Theory about how Peter gets the scar.  Sylar takes illusion girls powers and Hiro is caught with his sword in front of two Peter's.  Hiro makes the wrong choice, Peter can't regenerate it fast enough as he has to fight off Sylar.  Who knows exactly though?

The person I am really most upset on the show about is Mohinder.  He is supposed to be smart, have some understanding of genetics, the first few times, I let it go, thinking them as rookie mistakes, but come on, this is a main guy in the show and yet he continues to show absolutely no purpose but to let Sylar go time and time again.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Sevenforce on May 02, 2007, 05:10:19 PM
Claires power, in and of itself, is not offensive, but can be used offensively. Heck, she could probably pummel the SWAT team to death before they take her down :P Nathan could pick up, fly up, drop. Rinse and repeat. Claude? Come on. Invisibility, without the infra-red goggles, has a practical plethora of offensive uses.

A single SWAT team member should be able to easily overpower Claire and slap some handcuffs on her.  Even if she had a weapon, she'd have to be really really quick to take them all out before one of them shot her (both actual bullets and most of the non lethal stuff should work on her long enough to capture her).  The same goes for Nathan.  And you could get around most of their abilities if you simply snuck up on them, shot them with a tranquelizer dart, then moved in to capture them once they fell asleep.  Also keep in mind that Homeland Security probably had quite a few specials working for them.  In addition to Matt and the Haitian, we see 2 superpowered SWAT team members in the last page of the latest comic.

Quote from: Sevenforce on May 02, 2007, 05:10:19 PM
And thats still a lot of super powered people. There must be thousands of them. How many super prisons can you build in five years? That's even assuming that there is a way of power-dampening without the Haitian, which I'm still a bit iffy about...(see Eve argument a few pages back)

If there isn't a way of power-dampening without the Haitian, there are always sedatives.  And the cells at Primatech prove that it is possible to detain them.  They even managed to keep Sylar locked up for a while
[/spoiler]

Ok, just got through watching this episode. Woo hooo!!! That was awesome. So, who will be the person to kill Sylar?

[spoiler]
Well, if Sylar is a main character next year he's either redeemed to some degree, or the villain again.  That's why I said next season should be about new threats; I don't want another season of Sylar trying to kill specials for their brains.  When this season's done, he should take a dirt nap, and there should be a new villain or villains next year.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Maybe he gets cloned? :lol: :P[/spoiler]

Seven:
[spoiler]In that case, I suggest they call in g'day to deal with this situation.[/spoiler]

Quote from: Xorn on May 01, 2007, 12:18:09 PM

Quote from: KRnut82 on May 01, 2007, 10:42:15 AM
One thing really bugs me. I thought about it last night and I'll put in spoilers to be on the safe side.

[spoiler]There is a slim chance that Future Sylar can or will be able to time travel. Bear with me.

Since Future Hiro is dead (shot in the back I might add), I can easily see Future Sylar going up to Future Hiros' body and opening his skull. "So, you can travel in time? Lets see how that works."[/spoiler]

I hope that I am wrong.

Well, considering the current Hiro will most likely change the past and thus change the future those events will not have taken place and the future sylar would not have that option... Otherwise a huge paradox would arise... and thier would have to be some consequence to the state of the universe... In short I doubt that will happen...

i think it makes sense,  its a good out for the producers,  they can kill sylar this season, and an uber-powerful sylar can return next season.

[spoiler]In this future relality, originally Sylar killed Claire, and got her powers. Thus, Peter could not get them, and got his scar.  Since that was corrected, and Claire was saved by Peter who gained her power, why would he still have it?

Peter's explosion originally killed Micah, but he and Ando seem to be the only ones (of the cast members), since everybody else is alive and kicking afterwards (until Sylar kills them). Hiro gave DL and Candace to Bennet for relocation, who in turn turned them over to Homeland Security, and were whacked by Sylar. Why would Candace need to do this? Unless everyone who works for The Company is deemed enemy of the State (presumingly including Linderman, hence "The Linderman Act") This would preclude the Haitian, who left the company earlier to protect Claire. But, if she was killed by Sylar, would he have left? His presence within the Homeland Security would probably also be a result of Hiro's time jump. [/spoiler]

I'm very disappointed - I went to watch the last episode on line but it keep feeding me the previous one.  :(

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on May 03, 2007, 04:34:47 PM
I'm very disappointed - I went to watch the last episode on line but it keep feeding me the previous one.  :(

20 is the current episode and is feeding at this link.
http://www.nbc.com/Video/rewind/full_episodes/heroes.shtml

Quote from: Pyroclasm on May 03, 2007, 05:53:51 PM

Quote from: Uncle Yuan on May 03, 2007, 04:34:47 PM
I'm very disappointed - I went to watch the last episode on line but it keep feeding me the previous one.  :(

20 is the current episode and is feeding at this link.
http://www.nbc.com/Video/rewind/full_episodes/heroes.shtml

I don't know why yours works - whenever I tried clicking on episode 20 before it kept feeding me 19.  :shrugs:

I just had a thought here... Everyone's just assuming the Haitian cancels powers, that he can stop them. If that's the case, how would he be able to remove memories? Does he have two powers now?

What if it's something more basic, like... he has the ability to nulify or manipulate the brain. The brain controls powers, it would make sense that he'd be able to shut them off by shutting that portion of the brain down.

It's clear that the Haitian can't nullify every power, since Nathan was able to fly while next to him and one of the writers states in the commentary for Company Man that he can't stop Ted's abilities.  Also, in Unexpected, he had to use infared goggles to detect Peter and Claude.

QuoteWhat if it's something more basic, like... he has the ability to nulify or manipulate the brain. The brain controls powers, it would make sense that he'd be able to shut them off by shutting that portion of the brain down.

That's sort of what I figured.

Quote from: Glitch Girl on May 01, 2007, 06:45:38 AM
It must be early because I'm getting weird random throughts.

What would happen if Sylar tries to take Jessica/Nikki and the secondary personality was part of the powers package?

I kind of assumed that Nikki's power was superstrength and Jessica had some kind of power to possess Nikki's body. (Jessica goes on a rant to her father at one point about how she always took the beatings for Nikki).

But then, I also tend to assume stuff like "hmm, there's nothing that can possbily go wrong with the combination of marmite and cinnamon!", so I may not be the best person to trust on this.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 04, 2007, 10:07:39 AM

QuoteWhat if it's something more basic, like... he has the ability to nulify or manipulate the brain. The brain controls powers, it would make sense that he'd be able to shut them off by shutting that portion of the brain down.

That's sort of what I figured.

I figured that too, since he was seemingly able to shut off Hiros powers, but allowed Matts to work. But that doesn't really explain how he can shut down some powers and not others, like Ted's and Claires. Or how he can (maybe) shut down copied powers, i.e. Peter and Sylar. If I remember correct, its not Peters brain that changes, but his genetic coding. Sylar, well, it could be his brain, but could be his code too.

I wonder how far he can control this too. I mean, I assumed at first it was just automatic, anyone around  him shuts down, with the erasing memory thing being on purpose. But this episode, hes able to shut down a whole office floor, and I remember Matt not being able to read minds while near him when Ted went new-clee-ar, but being able to do so when the Haitian went outside. Or (most likely) I could be reading far too much into this :D

The Haitian seems to nullify powers that require active concentration.  Claire and Ted's powers are involuntary, though Ted can control his with practice.  Claude's seem to require concentration only to turn it on and off.  Flying may be as simple as jumping for Nathan.

I don't think Nathan is a good case to go by for the Haitian, since it could be as simple as Nathan was too far away to mind-block his power, and only got farther away in a hurry once he started flying.

Really enjoying the show, and thanks to the lengthy gap in the US, I'm now only a couple of episodes behind (Parasite just aired), so I decided to start poking through this thread a little. Turns out that in my efforts to avoid spoilers, I missed a whole lot of story, because we weren't informed about the comics. Oh well.

Quote from: Talavar on May 06, 2007, 08:59:18 PM
I don't think Nathan is a good case to go by for the Haitian, since it could be as simple as Nathan was too far away to mind-block his power, and only got farther away in a hurry once he started flying.

Nathan was a few feet away from the Haitian when he flew.

Honestly Im not too concerned about season two, even if they ruin the show so far season one is pure comic book caviar.

The Haitian has to be concentrating to use his power. Nathan took him by surprise, and got out of range before he coudl react.  It's also an AOE power, so when he does concentrate, that explains how he can nullify a whole floor.

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 07, 2007, 05:46:42 PM
The Haitian has to be concentrating to use his power. Nathan took him by surprise, and got out of range before he coudl react.  It's also an AOE power, so when he does concentrate, that explains how he can nullify a whole floor.

He was with Nathan for quite a while.  You'd think he would have activated his power by then.

Quote from: Conduit on May 07, 2007, 05:52:39 PM

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 07, 2007, 05:46:42 PM
The Haitian has to be concentrating to use his power. Nathan took him by surprise, and got out of range before he coudl react.  It's also an AOE power, so when he does concentrate, that explains how he can nullify a whole floor.

He was with Nathan for quite a while.  You'd think he would have activated his power by then.

Why? He had one arm, HRG had the other.  And at that time, they had no idea what Nathan's power was.

An interesting, if slower-paced episode...
[spoiler]
We get an interesting look at Sylar's family life, and let's just say that the nut doesn't fall too far from the crazy tree.  A lot of the episode was holding pattern though, except for the very end, with Claire moping over the loss of normalcy, Hiro wanting to be a hero but daunted by his fear/self-doubt, & Nathan struggling with the Watchmen-solution.  I'd have thought for an episode this close to the end more would have happened, but maybe I'm forgetting something.
[/spoiler]

Plenty of nice little reveals here.

[spoiler]Molly Walker's power--good one!  That also means that she's the new tracking system that HRG and friends are out to destroy.

We see Sylar using those ice powers again.

How did he break out of time freeze, by the way?

Mrs. Petrelli reveals that she's been helping Linderman plan this.  Not good for poor Nathan.  If she only knew. . .  Unfortunately, even Hiro doesn't know that future Nathan is really Sylar.

Sylar meanwhile starts to see the possibilities.

And Peter absorbs Ted's powers, and is already having more problems handling them than he had hoped.

[/spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 07, 2007, 05:56:04 PM

Quote from: Conduit on May 07, 2007, 05:52:39 PM

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 07, 2007, 05:46:42 PM
The Haitian has to be concentrating to use his power. Nathan took him by surprise, and got out of range before he coudl react.  It's also an AOE power, so when he does concentrate, that explains how he can nullify a whole floor.

He was with Nathan for quite a while.  You'd think he would have activated his power by then.

Why? He had one arm, HRG had the other.  And at that time, they had no idea what Nathan's power was.

You're right, they had no idea what Nathan's power was.  Which means that it would be incredibly risky not to have his power nullification field on.  What if Nathan had had an ability to kill people with his thoughts?  It obviously doesn't require too much effort for the Haitian to keep his power nullification field up (if indeed, he needs to concentrate on it, it may simply be involuntary except he can choose to exclude certain people from it).  They had absolutely no reason not to use it on Nathan and several very good reasons to.

As for the episode, this was very good.  It felt a little like filler, but if it is, then it's the best filler I've ever seen.  This is what all transition episodes should have been like.

[spoiler]
The apple definitely didn't fall far from the tree.  And it hit every branch on the way down.  I can't imagine what it must have been like for Sylar to grow up under this woman.  It doesn't make me sympathetic at all for him, though.

Sylar didn't break out of the time freeze.  Hiro lost concentration when he tried to kill him.  It's good to see that Hiro isn't totally unstoppable.

Mohinder is starting to get his intelligence back.  Though I'm confused about his cure for Molly's illness.  I would think that Mohinder's antibodies would work on Shanti simply because they're so similar genetically.  But oh well.  It's one of the less implausible uses of genetics on this show.

So Molly Walker can know where people are.  You can understand why Future Hiro wanted her.  It'll be interesting to see what she ends up doing.  I'd like to find out more about how her power works.  If she just has a name, she'd think of millions of people.  She'd need enough info to distinguish a person from 6 billion others, which is quite a bit.

Mrs. Petrelli is apparently allied with Linderman.  She's not completely loyal though, as she's keeping Claire's location a secret.

Speaking of Claire, yay for her and Peter trying to stop Ted.  And unless the season finale is going to deal solely with the aftermath of the explosion, Peter manages to keep Ted's power under control for now.  It makes you wonder how he's going to be set off, especially since he has to consciously switch to Ted's powers.  My guess is he absorbs and switches powers too many times, and overloads like in Fallout and Distractions.  Only this time, he has to worry about a lot more than just falling into a coma.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Oh, so today we find out that Sylar's mom is Audrey 1 from the Little Shop of Horrors movie with Rick Morranis and Steve Martin. Glad to see that actress finally get some work.

Candice proves that she really has illusion powers, no just shapeshifting, which makes me believe that Future Sylar didn't kill her. He killed someone else who has shapeshifting. That's how he'd look like Nathan on a camera.

Probably the best part of this ep was the trailer for next week. I know, this one was a "necessary filler," I cool with that, it just looks like that last two eps are going to be fantastic. Best part? The last trailer scene with Sylar standing on a rooftop. The camera pans in to just his face, with his eyes glowing like Ted's before he goes nuclear, and just whispers, "Boom." Cool, cool, cool.
[/spoiler]

Oh, Cat-
[spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 07, 2007, 07:09:20 PM
How did he break out of time freeze, by the way?

He didn't. Hiro was so nervous about killing Sylar, Hiro lost his concentration. That's why Audrey 1 fell the same time Sylar started moving again.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: The Hitman on May 07, 2007, 08:35:11 PM
[spoiler]
Candice proves that she really has illusion powers, no just shapeshifting, which makes me believe that Future Sylar didn't kill her. He killed someone else who has shapeshifting. That's how he'd look like Nathan on a camera.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]Sylar did say that Candice was the one who gave him the ability to become President in the last episode.  Candice herself said that she can make people see what she wants them to see, so it may not be mental illusions, but light-based illusions created with her mind.  This would explain how she (and later Sylar) is able to fool cameras.  Claude's power may be similar, except that he can only allow light to pass through him.

As for this episode, it was really good.  We see the reason behind Sylar's behavior (every monster has a mother) and we see Hiro at his most noble.  Despite Sylar just killing Isaac, Hiro's good friend, he still couldn't bring himself to kill Sylar in cold blood.  I think there is going to be a huge fight involving many of the heroes and it ends with Hiro killing Sylar in self preservation rather then in cold blood.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

QuoteHe didn't. Hiro was so nervous about killing Sylar, Hiro lost his concentration. That's why Audrey 1 fell the same time Sylar started moving again.

That makes sense, and gives Hiro a believable vulnerability.

QuoteIt makes you wonder how he's going to be set off, especially since he has to consciously switch to Ted's powers.  My guess is he absorbs and switches powers too many times, and overloads like in Fallout and Distractions.  Only this time, he has to worry about a lot more than just falling into a coma.

That last time he overloaded, some of his powers started randomly and uncontrollably going off.  My guess is that's what happens to cause the explosion.  We know all the heroes will come together for the last episode.  That's a lot of people with powers in one place.

It seems to me, based on the fact that he could use powers near him even before he learned to recall him, that there's a bit of a power feedback whenever he's near someone with powers.  The power gets activated, and maybe he can learn to turn it off, even when around them, but get enough people feeding him power at once, and I can definitely see his control getting overwhelmed.  And with Ted's power in his arsenal, that's not a very good thing.

It does seem he's getting better at handling it, though.  He's near 3 others right now and doing fine, except for Ted's powers, which were impossible to control for even him at first.  I'd say he isn't doing too bad for a first-timer.  I suspect that after the explosion, future Peter learned to handle an ever-larger number, especially since we seem him around dozens in the last two comics.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
I think this episode puts to rest that Peter didn't absorb Issac's art ability. Which begs the quesiton why Sylar hasn't yet?  Does Peter have more practice, or is his control simply inherently better than Sylars?
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]The writers have and the series creator have stated repeatedly that Peter did NOT absorb the artistic ability.  Yes, that seems to be contradicted here, but it is what it is.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
I don't see it as contradictory at all.  It just means that Peter can draw.  His drawings still aren't anywhere near as good as Isaac's sketches.  Just because he first used the power to draw stick figures doesn't mean that that was the limit of his artistic ability.
[/spoiler]

That is very true, Conduit, but again, it's confusing the fans.  They should be a tad bit more careful.

Of course the real reason is simply:

[spoiler]
They've hired a comic book artist to draw the pictures.  He's going to want to use his talents.  He's not going to draw stick figures.  Even if he tries to draw badly, he's just going to draw an artistic impression of a person drawing badly, which is hardly the same thing.
[/spoiler]

One question occurred to me last night:  If Hiro can travel through time...why doesn't he just travel back to a time to where Sylar is helpless and powerless (such as 5 years of age or so)?  That way Sylar can't really put up a defense and the future would be saved.  Then again, the time stream would potentially be altered dramatically.  And Hiro might have several reasons for not doing so...self imposed Bushido/moral code...inability to concentrate on a specific time frame etc.  Any thoughts on other possibilities??

Hiro in the future scares a lot of people.  There aren't many that would trust him.  And even those who did might not know enough about Gabriel Gray.  FH probably just didn't know anything about Gray's life pre-Sylar.

Quote from: Dr.Volt on May 08, 2007, 02:55:15 PM
One question occurred to me last night:  If Hiro can travel through time...why doesn't he just travel back to a time to where Sylar is helpless and powerless (such as 5 years of age or so)?  That way Sylar can't really put up a defense and the future would be saved.  Then again, the time stream would potentially be altered dramatically.  And Hiro might have several reasons for not doing so...self imposed Bushido/moral code...inability to concentrate on a specific time frame etc.  Any thoughts on other possibilities??

Messing with the time stream has proven to be incredibly difficult - both to do, and to predict.  Hiro has already tried to change something that happened in the past when he was enamored of that waitress in... Texas, was it?  He tried to prevent her from getting killed by Sylar by trying to get her out of the country on the day that she otherwise would have been killed.  Ultimately, he discovered that she had an inoperable brain tumor and was going to die anyway, and failed to change the course of events.  Through this, he became convinced that it is impossible to change events that have already occurred - he directly said as much to Ando.

Granted, this seems like a paradox when compared with the actions of Future Hiro, who came back in time to get Peter Petrelli to successfully save the cheerleader.  Even then, however, Future Hiro made statements that suggest that time-travel and mucking with the timestream is incredibly dangerous and difficult. 

Just had a thought...

[spoiler]Maybe Sylar in the future got Lindermans powers? So future Hiro DID stab him, but instead of using Claires, he used Lindermans, to heal. That would explain how the future is still there - since he hasnt absorbed Linderman YET, he can be taken out in the here and now, but future Hiro wasn't able to take him out at that future point because he had got Lindermans power[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: Sevenforce on May 09, 2007, 08:22:11 AM
Maybe Sylar in the future got Lindermans powers? So future Hiro DID stab him, but instead of using Claires, he used Lindermans, to heal. That would explain how the future is still there - since he hasnt absorbed Linderman YET, he can be taken out in the here and now, but future Hiro wasn't able to take him out at that future point because he had got Lindermans power.

There's been absolutely no indication that Linderman can heal himself.  In the War Buddies comics, he never acted as if he could heal if shot.  In part 5, Dallas punches him and he gets a bloody lip, though I suppose it's possible that he healed himself later.
[/spoiler]

Quotetraditionally we all are exposed to the scifi idea of a timeline immediately nolonger existing once critical events which lead to it's creation are changed. these writers don't appear to be following that convention, otherwise the entire alternate future we saw would have ceased to exist the moment peter saved claire's life in the past. disallowing Syler to have her powers at the point in time where hiro stabs him. - unless Hiro is wrong and saving claire was never they key and she was always meant to survive - but then it just becomes over thinking...

We've absolutely no indication of that whatsoever here.  It was made VERY clear that events HAD been altered in the future by Future Hiro's meddling and certain things HAD changed.  Claire was still alive, for instance, and Sylar had never had her power.  I think the point in him getting it was that Future Hiro really had failed in everything he tried.  Sylar didn't die this time because Hiro didn't stab him this time.  It's as simple as that.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimselfSylar didn't die this time because Hiro didn't stab him this time.  It's as simple as that.

If thats true, then how can Future Hiro remember stabbing him? Somehow, even with the changes made, things have happened as before, except for subtle differences, such as Claire being alive. I'm gonna give up trying to figure it out, cos it gives me a headache.

Quote from: Sevenforce on May 10, 2007, 04:12:11 PM

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimselfSylar didn't die this time because Hiro didn't stab him this time.  It's as simple as that.

If thats true, then how can Future Hiro remember stabbing him? Somehow, even with the changes made, things have happened as before, except for subtle differences, such as Claire being alive. I'm gonna give up trying to figure it out, cos it gives me a headache.

Future Hiro only remembers the first timeline, the one where Claire got Sylared.  His memories don't change when he changes the past.

Exactly, because he jumped through the timeline, he was not effected by the changes in the timeline.  I thought that was almost a given.

My head hurts again.

:blink:

That's sort of inevitable with anything related to time travel.

So...wheres the Hiro that wasn't exempt from the jump? Future Hiro(1) travels back in time, changes time. New timeline emerges, which he returns to. Hiro from pre-changed timeline continues on in changed timeline, becoming Future Hiro(2) - where is he? I assumed it was something like that, but with the absence of a second future hiro, that idea becomes a little moot. OR - butterfly effect induced - shouldn't he have gained a bunch of new memories? Except hes moved physically as well as temporally...

STOP! Ok. I'm done. I resign myself to a headache -_-

Now I have a headache too.  Let's just drop this discussion.

So everyone in the future believes Sylar was the one who blew up New York.  But Peter said it was he himself that blew up New York (confirmed in dialogue with Sylar).  Was the person Hiro stabbed actually Peter?  Peter has Claire's ability and it isn't beyond possibility that he will gain the Illusion ability.  Can't hazard a reason why he would portray Sylar, but then again that scar could come from Hiro's legendary sword.  (Powers in overload might prevent proper healing.)  Perhaps dispite his efforts, Hiro doesn't change his timeline because the "changes" he makes are what caused his timeline  in the first place.  Ok, it's late and that probably doesn't make any sense (logical or otherwise), but I had to jott it down in the slim chance I get to say "I told you so."

Seriously, I'd really like to institute a hard no-time-travel-discussions rule in this thread. There simply is no good way for them to end. Do it in PMs if you're interested in discussing it, but all you're doing here is cluttering the thread with the same unproveable arguments over and over.

Any other signatories?

Ummm..... I like spam? Is that ok? I mean, if future Spam comes back in time, could he change the world? Save the sandwhich, save the world. I'm drunk.

Quote from: thanoson on May 11, 2007, 12:15:15 AM
Ummm..... I like spam? Is that ok? I mean, if future Spam comes back in time, could he change the world? Save the sandwhich, save the world. I'm drunk.

Again? I swear this crescent . . . is just a curse. (thanks to Dog's Eye View for that comeback)

Quoteassuming we follow traditional accepted convention of the results of interference in a timeline

What convention?  There isn't any!  Every fictional thing dealing with time travel does so differently, and is often not even internally consistent.

Quoteeverything that has occured so far is what had always occured.

Most definitely NOT.

Hiro stabbed Sylar and he healed because he had killed Claire.

After the time jump, Claire is suddenly alive.  Sylar obviously couldn't have regenerated.  Events played out slightly differently, but only VERY slightly.  For all we know, there we all kinds of small differences, but Hiro didn't bother saying, and we didn't see the world before the change.

Besides, the timeline's been altered several times as it is in the show, and Hiro does remember those altered timelines.  There was even one case in which a picture changed in front of Ando's eyes, and it appears that Ando still remember the unaltered timeline's picture.  Like most show going through time travel, it pays not to go overboard with the logic.  It's a TV show, enjoy it, don't rationalize it too much.

Hey, I'm gonna stay out of this Time Travel debate... it's getting too deep for me. I'm just resigning myself to the fact that, in a world where men can fly, kids can talk to computers, and Mr. Rorke from Fantasy Island cand heal thing outher that himself (I gather he's the opposite of Claire, y'know, she heals herself, he heals everyone else), time travel's just something that should be enjoyed a face value. What's my stance: Multiverse.

Now, to the real reason I'm posting-

Quote from: Pyroclasm on May 10, 2007, 08:06:20 PM
that scar could come from Hiro's legendary sword.  (Powers in overload might prevent proper healing.)

The way I saw it, in that timeline, Peter never met Claire, so he doesn't have healing, but instead has Nikki/ Jessica's sort- of invunerability.

My prediction for the final episode:

-Sylar will be stabbed by Hiro and end up in a serious coma.  Next season, he will be kept sedated initially while the Company analyzes his unique abilities and try and remove any powers he has obtained.

-Nathan, tired of being the puppet of his mother and mobsters, will end up sacrificing himself to save New York from Peter.  He will fly Peter out of the city and over the Atlantic.

As for the Hiro's alterations in time:

Hiro has the unique position of being able to change the future.  Unlike Isaac, whose powers made him like Cassandra, Hiro actually can change the future and the past.  However, he doesn't want to mess around with events that have already happened unless he can pinpoint the precise point in time to make an alteration.  That is why he appeared to Peter in the beginning of the series and gave him his first mission.  He figured that a minor alteration like that would have a massive ripple effect, not counting on the true complexity of his actions.

Think of the timeline like that of the Legacy of Kain Series, where if you drop a stone into a river, there is an alteration, but the river still continues on its path.  Hiro is like Raziel, the only being who truly has free will and is not tied done to a specific path.  I suspect that the writers will (hopefully) have Isaac's paintings change if the nuclear explosion is averted.  This is because Isaac only sees the future as it is, not the future that Hiro (and only Hiro) can create.  Remember, once Future Hiro told Peter to save Claire, Isaac's paintings focused on all the events that occurred due to Future Hiro's alterations.

Let's hope that the writers have clearly set out the rules for Hiro's time travel and define them in the show.  Otherwise, anything is possible.

MY BRAIN IS BLEEDING! ><

Quote from: captainspud on May 10, 2007, 10:57:24 PM
Seriously, I'd really like to institute a hard no-time-travel-discussions rule in this thread. There simply is no good way for them to end. Do it in PMs if you're interested in discussing it, but all you're doing here is cluttering the thread with the same unproveable arguments over and over.

Any other signatories?

You've got my vote/signature. Even if I did assist in the current status :rolleyes:

I'll sign too.

Quotethere is a reason conventions exist.

There are no conventions!  That's what I'm trying to say.

Quotefeel free to post your own opinions on what may or not be the case. do so in any tone... as though you are the authority even but do not counter posts of my opinion and thoughts as though you are correct, with nothing more than *your* own opinion of events. your opinion is not more valid than my opinion, especially considering it's my own that is in question.

Only if you do the same, which so far, you are not.

At any rate, I'm only trying to point out the way the show has established time travel so far.  My own opinions as to the way time travel should be have nothing whatsoever to do with it.  As a matter of fact, I would probably do it more differently, but I have no problem with going with the inconsistencies.

...

OK. Ima gonna try and sort this mess out.

First off, people are conflating events that are related, but not the cause of one another: Claire being saved/Hiro stabbing Sylar/the bomb going off.

The reason that the majority of the future did not change for Future Hiro is that Sylar was never the bomb. The bomb was always Peter.  Future Peter admits as much to Future Niki, saying that Nathan lied for him by telling people it was Sylar.

So, at some point in between when he came back from the future and when the bomb goes off, Hiro will stab Sylar.  This should/will not affect the bomb in any way..  However, in Future Hiro's original timeline, he had killed Claire and regenerated.  Now, because Hiro had Peter save Claire, he will not. Again, this does (or should) not affect the bomb. Future Hiro based his entire mission on a false premise.

As for everyone not knowing Claire was alive, I merely took that to mean that once she had been saved and the bomb went off, HRG hid her very well and let everyone THINK she was dead. That explains everyones surprise.

I agree with you and intended to say something along those lines.

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 12, 2007, 11:09:25 AM
OK. Ima gonna try and sort this mess out.

First off, people are conflating events that are related, but not the cause of one another: Claire being saved/Hiro stabbing Sylar/the bomb going off.

The reason that the majority of the future did not change for Future Hiro is that Sylar was never the bomb. The bomb was always Peter.  Future Peter admits as much to Future Niki, saying that Nathan lied for him by telling people it was Sylar.

So, at some point in between when he came back from the future and when the bomb goes off, Hiro will stab Sylar.  This should/will not affect the bomb in any way..  However, in Future Hiro's original timeline, he had killed Claire and regenerated.  Now, because Hiro had Peter save Claire, he will not. Again, this does (or should) not affect the bomb. Future Hiro based his entire mission on a false premise.

As for everyone not knowing Claire was alive, I merely took that to mean that once she had been saved and the bomb went off, HRG hid her very well and let everyone THINK she was dead. That explains everyones surprise.

And because Peter saved Clair, per Future Hiro's instructions, he will now survive when he goes nuclear.  Although, he might have survived anyway even without her regenerative power.  We don't know if the nuclear blast kills Ted when he loses control or not.

Ted has always been completely unharmed by his radioactive emissions, even when they're strong enough to burn the skin off of someone a few feet away.  Exploding shouldn't be any different.  Also, A) Peter was alive in Future Hiro's original timeline, hence the "you look different without your scar" comment, and B) Claire can't regenerate if her brain is removed, there is absolutely positively no way in heck that someone with Claire's powers could survive being inside a nuclear fireball and being completely vaporized, much less being at the center of it and having every molecule torn apart.

Even Nathan stated that Claire's powers could not help with a nuclear explosion, and he's right.

[spoiler]Has it been confirmed yet if Peter can use two powers at once? I watched through the future episode again just to see, but it was too ambiguous. If not...since its now been shown that Sylar can...that should be fun to watch :P[/spoiler]

Peter was able to stay invisible and use TK to throw paint cans at Issac.  I think he's done other things too.

Quote from: thalaw2 on May 13, 2007, 12:03:53 AM
Peter was able to stay invisible and use TK to throw paint cans at Issac.  I think he's done other things too.

If I remember right, he was physically tossing the paint cans while invisible, not doing it with TK.

Quote from: GhostMachine on May 13, 2007, 02:52:30 AM

Quote from: thalaw2 on May 13, 2007, 12:03:53 AM
Peter was able to stay invisible and use TK to throw paint cans at Issac.  I think he's done other things too.

If I remember right, he was physically tossing the paint cans while invisible, not doing it with TK.

How could you tell? :)

You can't for sure, but there's no reason to think otherwise.

Quote from: Conduit on May 12, 2007, 01:46:38 PM
Ted has always been completely unharmed by his radioactive emissions, even when they're strong enough to burn the skin off of someone a few feet away.  Exploding shouldn't be any different.  Also, A) Peter was alive in Future Hiro's original timeline, hence the "you look different without your scar" comment, and B) Claire can't regenerate if her brain is removed, there is absolutely positively no way in heck that someone with Claire's powers could survive being inside a nuclear fireball and being completely vaporized, much less being at the center of it and having every molecule torn apart.

But Ted expels nuclear energy outward from his body, while he and his clothing remain untouched. 

Quote from: Revenant on May 13, 2007, 12:24:37 PM

Quote from: Conduit on May 12, 2007, 01:46:38 PM
Ted has always been completely unharmed by his radioactive emissions, even when they're strong enough to burn the skin off of someone a few feet away.  Exploding shouldn't be any different.  Also, A) Peter was alive in Future Hiro's original timeline, hence the "you look different without your scar" comment, and B) Claire can't regenerate if her brain is removed, there is absolutely positively no way in heck that someone with Claire's powers could survive being inside a nuclear fireball and being completely vaporized, much less being at the center of it and having every molecule torn apart.

But Ted expels nuclear energy outward from his body, while he and his clothing remain untouched. 

Yes, that's my point.  He's unharmed by his own radioactive emissions, and someone with his powers would survive exploding.

Don't read too much into the word "exploding."  That doesn't necessarily mean, disolving one's body into a nuclear fireball, but rather disolving everything else into a nuclear fireball.

Hey, dumb question, but why does Nathan have to fly Pete out of town? If he can use two powers atonce, can't he do it himself?

Quote from: The Hitman on May 13, 2007, 10:19:36 PM
Hey, dumb question, but why does Nathan have to fly Pete out of town? If he can use two powers atonce, can't he do it himself?

I don't think he can use 2 powers at once.  And since when does Nathan have to fly Peter out of town? :huh:

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 13, 2007, 09:13:41 AM

Quote from: GhostMachine on May 13, 2007, 02:52:30 AM

Quote from: thalaw2 on May 13, 2007, 12:03:53 AM
Peter was able to stay invisible and use TK to throw paint cans at Issac.  I think he's done other things too.

If I remember right, he was physically tossing the paint cans while invisible, not doing it with TK.

How could you tell? :)

How about the fight on the roof with the invisible man?  First they were fighting while invisible then Pete used TK to stop the pipe from hitting him....it's not clear if he because visible first.

Quote from: The Hitman on May 13, 2007, 10:19:36 PM
Hey, dumb question, but why does Nathan have to fly Pete out of town? If he can use two powers atonce, can't he do it himself?

Because Peter will get overwhelmed by his emotions and cause his own powers to go haywire.  Because of this, he will go nuclear, especially since Ted's abilities are tied to his emotions as well.

Is NBC only keeping the current episode up now?  I hope not - I still haven't seen the previous episode.  Phooey.

They still have all the episodes up.  To the right, under "choose an episode," they have groups of episodes listed, 1-5, 6-10, etc.  Just click on the one that the episode you want to see is in, then click on the episode itself.

Everyone hear about the Heroes spin-off for next year?  It's going to be called Heroes: Origins, and be the source of newly introduced characters.

Quote from: Talavar on May 14, 2007, 12:45:50 PM
Everyone hear about the Heroes spin-off for next year?  It's going to be called Heroes: Origins, and be the source of newly introduced characters.

Quote from: Zap2it
The "Origins" series will consist of six stand-alone episodes, with each one introducing a new character and telling his or her back story. They'll take place within the "Heroes" universe but won't be tied into the main arc of the series, although one or two regular characters may pop up.

http://www.zap2it.com/zap-nbcupfronts-heroesorigins,0,4997092.story

So, not a full fledged spin off- 6 episodes designed so the show doesnt have to take such long breaks.

You got my hopes up there, man!

Still, this is pretty cool.

Another good episode that really sets things up for the finale.  Several deaths this time around, the most in any episode so far.

[spoiler]
Mr. Nakumura is indeed one of Linderman's original group of heroes, but it appears that he doesn't quite agree with him.  He was actually testing Hiro to see if he had what it takes to be a hero, and was surprised to find that he did.

Now Hiro can use his sword.  We can see a bit of Future Hiro in him now.

Linderman proves that he isn't much of a hero, the way he tried to get Jessica to kill DL.  Nice to see Niki wield enough control over Jessica to stop it.  They also confirmed that Linderman set the two up, apparently so Micah could be born and sees no significance to their relationship beyond that.

Linderman, Ted, and HRG's former boss DL all dead.

Audrey is back--and takes the title of dumbest smart person from Mohinder.

Linderman at least healed Nathan's wife before he died.  That's the one good thing we've seen him do.

We finally see Matt using his powers as a people radar of sorts.  This has only really been seen before in the comics.

Ted's escape form custody as told in the comics is confirmed in this episode by Audrey as having actually taken place.

I think it safe to say that the Company, as least as it existed, is dead now.

I originally put DL down as being dead, but he isn't yet, and the ad for next week showed him and Niki with Molly, so he may very well pull through.
[/spoiler]

While watching this weeks episode Ms_MJB pointed something out.

[spoiler]Did Linderman heal the deteriorated muscles as well as the spine of Nathans wife? If he didn't then it would have been impossible for her to stand up even with a healed spinal column. [/spoiler]

-MJB

This episode was awesome.  It didn't set up the season finale, it WAS part of the season finale, in every sense of the word.  The pacing was tight, major events happened, and it had some of the best moments of the series yet.  If the finale is anything like this, it's going to be one amazing season.

[spoiler]
Thompson, Ted, and Linderman all died.  Thompson I can live without, and Ted was kind of inevitable, but it's a shame to see Linderman go.  Malcolm McDowell is amazing.  Since next season is supposed to involve the previous generation, hopefully he'll show up in flashbacks.  If HRG and Mohinder manage to cooperate and get Molly to safety, then there won't be much of the Company left at all.  I guess this explains how HRG ended up where he was in Five Years Gone.

I can't decide which death was cooler, phasing and tearing his brains out, or "What am I thinking now?"  "Your last thought."  On second thought, it's definitely the latter.

Speaking of which, DL isn't dead yet.  He was definitely still moving slightly at the end.  I wonder if he'll be able to phase his entire body except the bullet.

It's great to see Audrey back, and I don't find what she did dumb at all.  She has absolutely no idea what Sylar looks like, after all.

HRG lost a little bit of my sympathy, what with him being willing to kill the Walker system knowing that it was a person, and not reconsidering much when it turns out to be a little girl.

I'm not sure how to feel about Ando's actions.  Trying to take on Sylar himself would have been heroicly stupid if Hiro really was off to Japan, but you'd think he could have at least called Hiro to check up on him.

I loved the callback to Five Years Gone with Nathan's speech montage.  It's a testament to how good this show is that it can reference an episode 2 weeks ago and make it work.

Nitpick: In real life, just about all voting machines in New York are old fashioned lever pull types.  They can be rigged, but they're completely mechanical, so Micah wouldn't be able to do anything to them.  Though I guess in the Heroes world, Linderman could easily have helped negotiate a deal between an electronic voting machine company and New York state a few years back.

Quote from: MJB on May 14, 2007, 07:45:51 PM
Did Linderman heal the deteriorated muscles as well as the spine of Nathans wife? If he didn't then it would have been impossible for her to stand up even with a healed spinal column.[

It's only been six months, her muscles shouldn't have atrophied that much.  I know many astronauts have stayed in orbit for longer periods of time and have still been able to walk on return to Earth.
[/spoiler]

Really fantastic episode, we really enjoyed it at the Grey house.  I've got to say though:

[spoiler]Don't count Linderman out yet....yeah, I know, brain gone....but villains have come back from worse than that, and the man IS a healer....I don't know, he's probably dead, but I'm just not quite sure.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I'm not sure Linderman is dead...  I mean, he can heal others, why wouldn't he be able to heal himself?  Probably because he's dead, but who knows.  I doubt his powers simply extended to curation.

I also wonder what powers does "Dallas" Petrelli and Kaito Nakamura have?[/spoiler]

all new heroes today
just a reminder :thumbup:

Raijin, the episode aired 2 hours ago.

[spoiler]
Linderman had part of his brain torn out.  Even Claire probably wouldn't be able to come back from that.  Besides, there is absolutely no evidence that he can heal himself, but even if he could, it has been established that he cannot bring the dead back to life and that his healing power requires him to consciously think about it, which is obviously impossible if he's dead.
[/spoiler]

huh!? :faint

well on my cable it will come on 9:00

Quote from: Raijin on May 14, 2007, 08:09:19 PM
all new heroes today
just a reminder :thumbup:

Quote from: Conduit on May 14, 2007, 08:13:26 PM
Raijin, the episode aired 2 hours ago.

Timezones...

Great episode. Too tired to comment fully on the experience, but great episode.

Just one question (which I doubt is a spoiler):

Where the F@#$ is the Haitian?

QuoteGreat episode. Too tired to comment fully on the experience, but great episode.

whoa ho!
then i'll shall join u in 20 min!

On another note, it looks more and more like my predictions about then finale are coming true...

Quote from: Raijin on May 14, 2007, 08:25:46 PM
huh!? :faint

well on my cable it will come on 9:00

Remember, different people here are in different time zones. At the time you posted this, it was already 11:30 or so in New York, where I am, for example. Heroes aired at 9:00 here, too.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 14, 2007, 07:10:29 PM[spoiler]Nice to see Niki wield enough control over Jessica to stop it. [/spoiler]

[spoiler]It looked to me as though Jessica willingly gave up control to Niki so she wouldn't have to kill DL.[/spoiler]

Quote from: Conduit on May 14, 2007, 07:47:09 PM

[spoiler]HRG lost a little bit of my sympathy, what with him being willing to kill the Walker system knowing that it was a person, and not reconsidering much when it turns out to be a little girl.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]It looked to me like he was reconsidering a lot- things just happened too quickly once they got there for him to fully react.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Is it just me, or did Hiro pick up sword-fighting pretty fast?  And why wouldn't Ando at least wait to see what happened to Hiro?  Great episode, these were just some minor nit-picks of mine.

As to Nathan's wife's healing, if Linderman can fix her spine, why can't he fix muscle atrophy?  Doesn't seem like a stretch to me. 

Also, my verdict is on LInderman being dead.  He had his brain pulped, and Malcom McDowell is relatively famous to keep coming back indefinitely. 
[/spoiler]

i've seen it and it is good!

Watching it now...anyone else notice.. [spoiler]

Under the ad for the shop Ando steered Hiro to, there was an ad for Bill's Sword Forging and training?

Shout out to Kill Bill I think :)

[/spoiler]

Alaric and Conduit:

[spoiler]

QuoteIt looked to me as though Jessica willingly gave up control to Niki so she wouldn't have to kill DL.

I wasn't meaning that she didn't, I meant that Niki had enough of an influence or pull, or whatever on Jessica that she'd be willing to do so.  In the past she hasn't really cared so much what Jessica wanted and has not allowed Niki to take control like that.

About HRG and the little girl, he did hesitate once he saw that Walker was a young girl, he started to say "I knew it was a person but I didn't know. . ." and was dropping his guard a bit as Matt was trying to get him to stop before Mohinder went and knocked out the guy who was actually on his side.  Then HRG reacted exactly as his experience and training taught him to react, he's using her to keep Mohinder from shooting him, plus he no longer has the luxury of having enough time to think it through.
[/spoiler]

Did anyone else notice the FF4- Rise of Silver Surfer plug?

[spoiler]
Candice: I heard you like comic books, so I picked you up a few.

Micah: Oh, man, that's Silver Surfer #1! It must have cost a fortune!

Candice: Yeah...
[/spoiler]

They should've had "Shameless Promotion" flashing underneath it.

Well, there was an ad for it during the show, and they have been merciless with the Nissan Versa, especially in earlier episodes.

Quote from: Talavar on May 14, 2007, 09:10:05 PM
[spoiler]
Is it just me, or did Hiro pick up sword-fighting pretty fast?   
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I thought Hiro and his father were in some kind of time-free zone.  It seemed like he could train there indefinitely, and time flowed differently in the real world.  Ando left to attack Sylar because Hiro disappeared for so long; maybe for Ando, it seemed like he was waiting over the course of a day.  But if Hiro was using his powers to warp time, it could have been months...

That was my impression but I did get distracted during that scene, I have to re-watch it[/spoiler]

Quote from: Revenant on May 15, 2007, 08:44:40 AM

Quote from: Talavar on May 14, 2007, 09:10:05 PM
[spoiler]
Is it just me, or did Hiro pick up sword-fighting pretty fast?   
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I thought Hiro and his father were in some kind of time-free zone.  It seemed like he could train there indefinitely, and time flowed differently in the real world.  Ando left to attack Sylar because Hiro disappeared for so long; maybe for Ando, it seemed like he was waiting over the course of a day.  But if Hiro was using his powers to warp time, it could have been months...

That was my impression but I did get distracted during that scene, I have to re-watch it[/spoiler]

[spoiler]If so, they must have had a LOT of food with them...[/spoiler]

Hey there! I love the show and watch every week, but I am wayyyy late getting into this thread. Qucik question that I hope hasn't already been brought up. When did Sylar get cold powers? Just curious, because I don't remember it.

Good episode, I am curious about what people mentioned with Hiro's training. A quick learner, or another time zone kind of thing? Hmmmm....  :cool:

QuoteWhen did Sylar get cold powers? Just curious, because I don't remember it.

WAAAY back at the beginning of the series.  Possibly some time before the series began, in fact.

When Matt and Audrey first show up at the first Sylar murder scene where Matt rescues Molly Walker, they find her father frozen solid, with his head cut open.

Either he had the cold powers already, or Mr. Walker had them.  We know he had to have some kind of power or Sylar wouldn't have done the head thing to him, and we don't know of any other power whose source is unaccounted for, so, although it might not be so, it seems likely that Mr. Walker had cold powers.

[spoiler]So...Nathans dad did have a power. Interesting. Hiros dad must, too. Maybe its to enhance someones training in a really short space of time? :P

I always thought Mr Walker had the cold powers, but who knows how many people Sylar has killed, or what their powers were.

I wonder what Candace REALLY looks like...it seems, in this eppy, that she doesn't naturally look like Candace. I wonder if her power stops if shes killed? And when do people become aware/gain their powers? If Ted obviously hasn't had this ability all his life, but Micah has had his from a (relatively) young age. Candace hints that she was bullied/abused for the way she looks naturally. There doesn't seem to be any rules to powers, which I suppose, given that they only have so much time to film and air an episode, is a good thing. Imagine going into the physics behind Candace and Micahs powers in that small scene alone...heh. And its just oh-so-more comic-booky that way, just look at Green Lantern (I'm being eaten alive by fanboys ARGGGHH!)

Speaking of Sylar...

I'm scared of the boogey man too :([/spoiler]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone else find Sylar a very UN-scary villain?  Yeah, he's a little creepy, but he's this pasty, nerdy looking guy who only has one expression....not exactly Magneto level here.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 15, 2007, 06:48:11 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone else find Sylar a very UN-scary villain?  Yeah, he's a little creepy, but he's this pasty, nerdy looking guy who only has one expression....not exactly Magneto level here.

The first time I saw him without a baseball cap and jacket I was like "oh..."

^_^

Im enjoying the "pathetic" angle they are giving him, a sympathetic serial killer who wants to be stopped.

I think he can be VERY scary at times.  More so because he's modeled in many ways on real serial killers.

The actor who plays him ... not exactly a graduate of the Strasberg school. He doesn't have much presence, creepy, pathetic or otherwise - just bland. I agree with Lugaru, when you see Sylar for the first time out of the shadows ... zzzzzz.

And in terms of character development - the shows writers have all of Sylar's opponents/victims roll over for him, so he doesn't really come off as being formidable to me, just ... unchallenged. He really should have duked it out with

:spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:

Ted a little before killing him.

Agreed Jakew, especially about the spoilerific part.

Yes, but all those things make him more real, and to me, more creapy.  Real serial killers usually are quiet, nerdy and not imposing or scarey at all.  Nor do that particularly like to fight it out with their victims. 

Yeah, but his victims have superpowers, which should lead to SOME decent fights.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 15, 2007, 07:15:47 PM
Yeah, but his victims have superpowers, which should lead to SOME decent fights.

Let's see...

The memory waitress was snuck up on from behind.

The ice guy was also probally snuck up on from behind.

All the hearing lady could do was...hear.

Ted was strapped to an upside down seat.

I don't think that any of Sylar's victims who he has killed had the chance to fight back. ;)

Peter was almost a victim, if not for Mohindar. He fought back.

Sylar's a sneak, and, deep down, a coward. Like most villians.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 15, 2007, 07:03:34 PM
I think he can be VERY scary at times.  More so because he's modeled in many ways on real serial killers.

x2

That seen on the rooftop with him going "Boom"- I've seen it a dozen times, and I still get a chill every time he does it.

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 15, 2007, 07:15:47 PM
Yeah, but his victims have superpowers, which should lead to SOME decent fights.

They've deliberatley underplayed his otehr victims to set up for the Sylar/Peter smackdown in the finale.

Quote from: The Hitman on May 15, 2007, 08:39:40 PM
Peter was almost a victim, if not for Mohindar. He fought back.

Yes, I know, but Peter was able to fight back, unlike everyone else Sylar faced.

Quote from: kkhohoho on May 15, 2007, 09:06:51 PM
Yes, I know, but Peter was able to fight back, unlike everyone else Sylar faced.

I know. I'm just saying that, if not for Mohindar, Pete would've been the first victim to fight back and lose.

 :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:

Something which niggles me about the non-event that was Ted vs Sylar ... Ted had been shown to blow up given the slightest provocation (hurt, angry, etc). According to the logic of the show, Sylar really shouldn't have been able to slice open Ted's head while he was conscious without triggering Ted's powers.

So the set up was right there for a decent rumble ... but the writer's let it fizzle out.

[spoiler]
I'm not a terrorist!
Yeah, right. Next stop for you: Guantanamo Bay!

That line made me cringe. The sheer cheesiness of it. Firstly: There are other places that they bring alleged terrorists you know. There's plenty of other places She sounds satisfied when she says this, when everyone knows the place is known for holding people indefinetely without charging them (meaning quite a few are probably innocent of terrorism), and mistreating them horribly.

Audrey might as well have said: Hoo-rah! I bagged myself a man I'm not sure is innocent or guilty, now I can hand him off to the CIA, to be imprisoned without trial...and tortured!
[/spoiler]


I did like the not-so subtle jab at the electronic voting machine fraud...

About the training scene, the first thing I would have done would be: "oh, you're going to train me Dad? That's great, just let me tell Ando I won't be back for a while..." but no, nothing has to make sense on this show...
How did Hiro's dad know he was headed for the sword shop? are we supposed to believe that his dad also owns an out of the way sword shop in NY? The sword guy seemed to be "loyal" to his Takei. I'm sure someone here will be able to come up with an explanation for this, but its just a pattern repeating on this show: characters are able to meet up without explanation of how they knew where said character was going to be, just because the writer said so (remember when Ando met with Nikki? how did he know where she lived??

this show's director doesn't seem to have any respect for time.  The whole training thing, and Ando just up & leaving... reminds me of the time Claire "died" and her body was found that same night floating in the river, and given an autopsy  that same night, and managed to walk back home by next morning.
Yeah, I'm a big complainer. :P

Quote from: EGD Eric on May 15, 2007, 09:29:50 PM
How did Hiro's dad know he was headed for the sword shop? are we supposed to believe that his dad also owns an out of the way sword shop in NY? The sword guy seemed to be "loyal" to his Takei. I'm sure someone here will be able to come up with an explanation for this, but its just a pattern repeating on this show:

The pattern that is repeating is that symbol... It's been seen as a tattoo and it was on Hiro's sword among dozens of other places that I have seen it but not remember at the moment. Ando flipped through the phone book and showed Hiro the ad and pointed at the symbol which seemed to make it fate that peticular store was where they should go. Considering that Takei obviously knew about Hiro's talents and that he figured/foresaw that symbol would lead him to that particual place at that time and give him the final training that he needed.

- CrimsonQuill

Quote from: Jakew on May 15, 2007, 09:27:36 PM
Ted had been shown to blow up given the slightest provocation (hurt, angry, etc).

Heh... you're right. Please excuse my bluntness, but, yeah, Ted would explode if he had a "fart caught sideways." Where was the boom?

QuotePlease excuse my bluntness

You're excused.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 15, 2007, 07:13:04 PM
Yes, but all those things make him more real, and to me, more creapy.  Real serial killers usually are quiet, nerdy and not imposing or scarey at all.  Nor do that particularly like to fight it out with their victims. 

Oh dont get my wrong, I totally consider the character sylar creepy but the actor only conveys 80% of that. But yeah, I love it when he dresses up as his old self, totally Clark Kent looking with the spectacles and maybe a touch of Peter Parker with the sweater. Oh yeah, anyone else catch Sylar in Grindhouse?

About Hiro's dad... I think he's been stalking Hiro as well as you can stalk somebody who teleports and travels through time. But yeah, more than likely had Isacs apartment bugged. Btw... are they ever going to report Isac to the police? His body has just been laying there for like 3 episodes and several days... I guess that's the tragedy of drug users, you get found dead a WHILE after like Lane Stanley.

Remember, it seems likely that Mr. Nakamura has a power and that may have something to do with the fact that he seems to know everything Hiro's been doing.  Even little details, like his loss and regaining of his powers.

Guys- Let's use Occam's razor here.

While I don't doubt that Mr. Nakamura has a power, isn't it far more likely that he's simply paid Ando to keep watch on Hiro and issue him regular reports?

[spoiler]The way Ando behaved in this episode would seem to contradict that.  He was very much opposed to Hiro having anything to do with his father and ran off to complete Hiro's mission on his own rather than let Mr. Nakamura influence him.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]One big plot hole that occured to me yesterday, while I was thinking about the fact that's it's strongly indicated in the series in many ways that no two people have the same power (unless they aquired it from someone else, and even then they will have different ways of doing so), which in itself raises a lot of questions- Linderman indicated that he had manipulated LP and Niki into getting together just so someone with Micah's power would be born. But Peter and Nathan, who share the same parents, have different powers. So, having specific parents can't possibly lead directly to a specific power- the exact way the two parents' genes combine would have to have something to do with it, too, and there's no way Linderman could have controlled that (unless he had someone working with him who had the power to somehow control human reproduction in others to an incredible degree).[/spoiler]

Alaric, keep in mind that:

[spoiler]Mr. Linderman's been collecting paintings and other things from specials who can predict the future for a LONG time.  And it Isaac was far from the only one whose things he's been collecting.  It's likely he know from one of them about Micah.[/spoiler]

EDIT: [spoiler]about the sword training scene, episode director Beeman had this to say:

QuoteI remember the only scene that worried me was the one where Kaito trains Hiro to be a swordsman. I was worried that it would seem foolish that Hiro learned so much in just a few hours. Nobody else was worried about this; they told me that as long as it came of magical it would be fine. Still I worried about it.

He went on to say, however, that the actor who plays Hiro really did learn sword fighting for the scene that quickly.  His stunt double wasn't even needed.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 15, 2007, 04:46:10 PM
When Matt and Audrey first show up at the first Sylar murder scene where Matt rescues Molly Walker, they find her father frozen solid, with his head cut open.

Either he had the cold powers already, or Mr. Walker had them.  We know he had to have some kind of power or Sylar wouldn't have done the head thing to him, and we don't know of any other power whose source is unaccounted for, so, although it might not be so, it seems likely that Mr. Walker had cold powers.

Mr. Walker was found frozen solid in the middle of eating his cereal, still holding his spoon.  There's no way he froze himself in that position.  Sylar must have gotten the ice power from someone else.

Quote from: Alaric on May 16, 2007, 05:04:06 AM
[spoiler]One big plot hole that occured to me yesterday, while I was thinking about the fact that's it's strongly indicated in the series in many ways that no two people have the same power (unless they aquired it from someone else, and even then they will have different ways of doing so), which in itself raises a lot of questions- Linderman indicated that he had manipulated LP and Niki into getting together just so someone with Micah's power would be born. But Peter and Nathan, who share the same parents, have different powers. So, having specific parents can't possibly lead directly to a specific power- the exact way the two parents' genes combine would have to have something to do with it, too, and there's no way Linderman could have controlled that (unless he had someone working with him who had the power to somehow control human reproduction in others to an incredible degree).[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I think that Angela Petrelli has the ability to dream the future.  It's not like Isaac's power, where he sees literal events, but it's more metaphorical.  The reason I believe this is because Peter has this ability and it's not explained how or why he has it.  Angela probably had a vision of DL and Niki and the child they could conceive together and how it fit in with their (Linderman and co.) plans.[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 16, 2007, 04:57:24 AM
[spoiler]The way Ando behaved in this episode would seem to contradict that.  He was very much opposed to Hiro having anything to do with his father and ran off to complete Hiro's mission on his own rather than let Mr. Nakamura influence him.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
A) Ando might not have known that Mr. Nakamura was ok with what Hiro was doing. Its very possible he was  only told: "Here's money. Keep an eye on Hiro - let me know if he gets in trouble."  Theres no reason to think Sulu told him the whole story, after all.

B) Given that, plus the future he visited and the comic book he saw, its very possible he just lozst it and ran off to try and save his own butt.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: Alaric on May 16, 2007, 05:04:06 AM
[spoiler]One big plot hole that occured to me yesterday, while I was thinking about the fact that's it's strongly indicated in the series in many ways that no two people have the same power (unless they aquired it from someone else, and even then they will have different ways of doing so), which in itself raises a lot of questions- Linderman indicated that he had manipulated LP and Niki into getting together just so someone with Micah's power would be born. But Peter and Nathan, who share the same parents, have different powers. So, having specific parents can't possibly lead directly to a specific power- the exact way the two parents' genes combine would have to have something to do with it, too, and there's no way Linderman could have controlled that (unless he had someone working with him who had the power to somehow control human reproduction in others to an incredible degree).[/spoiler]

[spoiler]One of the theories I've read is that Petrelli Sr had the ability to control probability (based on one of the comics on the NBC site). If he does, and remembering that he used to work with Linderman, it means he could have influenced matters so Micah got technopathy.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]A scene thats really stuck in my mind most of today...after Ando ran off, he was walking and looking at the comic book, like he was reading it step by step to get to the next part. Um...wouldn't it be smarter just to skip a couple of pages, see where he dies, and avoid that place like the plague? Or, you know, skip ahead to the bit where he can find out whats going on? :huh:

EDIT: While my sleep-addled mind can still function...where was Nathans wife in the future, and did he get to reveal this 'miracle'? Did Sylar kill her when he took Nathans life (literally)?[/spoiler]

one of the parts that none have mentioned is the great "sword Guy" Mr Claremont.... played by.... Mr Claremont... yes.. that Claremont.. still drooling

Another note... they already said that hiro studied kendo before... so this was more for him to gain confidence, not to learn from scratch, remember he said he dreamed of becoming a kendo master (future hiro and ando talking)

Sorry, but you're wrong their.  Future Hiro had studied kendo, but I'm pretty sure that the present one has not.

ando tells future hiro that he always wanted to become a kendo master..... and ando is dead in teh future, so we can asume that they talked about this in the present.. with present hiro

maybe wrong, but i think it is very possible

just watching the scene again and again now...

Quote from: The_Baroness on May 16, 2007, 05:14:23 PM
one of the parts that none have mentioned is the great "sword Guy" Mr Claremont.... played by.... Mr Claremont... yes.. that Claremont.. still drooling

Another note... they already said that hiro studied kendo before... so this was more for him to gain confidence, not to learn from scratch, remember he said he dreamed of becoming a kendo master (future hiro and ando talking)

I knew it was going to be somebody special and then when I saw the dude I thought "oh, ok, central casting... my mistake". I guess I was wrong, hahaha.

Quoteando tells future hiro that he always wanted to become a kendo master..... and ando is dead in teh future, so we can asume that they talked about this in the present.. with present hiro

So, I've always wanted to be a famous writer.  That doesn't mean I've been published.

In other words, Hiro has not studied Kendo, he's just always wanted to.  Not the same thing at all.

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 16, 2007, 06:06:22 PM

Quoteando tells future hiro that he always wanted to become a kendo master..... and ando is dead in teh future, so we can asume that they talked about this in the present.. with present hiro

So, I've always wanted to be a famous writer.  That doesn't mean I've been published.

In other words, Hiro has not studied Kendo, he's just always wanted to.  Not the same thing at all.

Not quite the same. More like if I said I wanted to become a soccer champion, and I spent a portion of my youth learning all the techniques and playing in leagues/tournaments etc, but then never did anything after that. Lots of young Japanese males learn kendo.

Season One of Heroes has ended!  It's been an interesting ride...

[spoiler]
I'm just going to talk about the ending, since it's so fresh in my mind, but, while I'm glad Sylar went down to Hiro like a punk, I'm ticked that he didn't die.  I mean, a Hiro vs. anybody fight isn't really fair, plus the random super-strength beatdown from Niki.  Just, enough with Sylar already.  Let him bleed out in the sewer. 

Nathan's self-sacrifice was interesting - would Peter survive?  In half an hour, is he going to go splat in that square in New York?

Also, Hiro's jump to prevent self-injury apparently lacked the self-control he's developed, but he did get to see one of his heroes in person, and apparently witness the eclipse that features so prominently in all of Heroes promotional material.  Is it the source of their powers?  If it is, its much earlier than I expected, and I suspect that'll be a focus of next season.
[/spoiler]

Of course there's also a reference by Molly to a new threat:

[spoiler]An evil far above Sylar that can apparently see Molly whenever she sees it.  Possibly that mysterious monstrous entity that shows up in a few of Isaac's pictures and in other Heroes art.[/spoiler]

Great episode all around. Yay for Hiro, Yay for Nathan, Yay for Niki! Cute bit at the end with Hiro swearing in Japanese and the subtitle being censored comic style.

Well, I deffinetly thought it was a good episode, but am I the only one who was a little disappointed?  I mean, lots of great stuff, but the ending let me down a bit.

[spoiler]Most of it was great, I loved Nathan's return, I knew he was going to redem himself, so cool.  I liked Hiro stabbing Sylar, but I agree with Talavar, I rather wish he'd actually been killed.  It's funny, when he stabbed him, I said outloud "cut his head off, or he's not dead."  Surprise surprise, he slunk away.  Anyway, what really let me down was the Peter/Sylar fight.  Peter did jack...he didn't use his powers AT ALL.  He's got invisibility, telekinesis, time control, flight, radiation, and even super strength to draw from (after Nikki shows up).  Instead, he stands there like a punk while Sylar rides roughshod over him....AGAIN!  He wasn't caught off guard this time, he's had a bit more time to get control of his powers, I REALLY wanted to see a halfway decent fight.  The bit with Nikki was nice, but I'd have rather seen Peter do it, since he kept being built up into a hero who would save the world.  What precisely did he do?  Really?  Kill Sylar?  Nope.  Stop the bomb?  Nadda, Nathan takes the credit there.  So....the big build up to their fight and we get....Nathan throwing a handful of punches....wow....I'm so impressed. :angry:  Am I the only one who feels this way?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I totally freakin' called the ending on that one!   :thumbup:

By the way, Nathan may not be dead.  He may have been able to get him far enough away and then go his own way.  Oh well, wait for the producers to confirm it.
[/spoiler]

Quote from: BentonGrey on May 21, 2007, 07:27:04 PM
Well, I deffinetly thought it was a good episode, but am I the only one who was a little disappointed?  I mean, lots of great stuff, but the ending let me down a bit.

[spoiler]Most of it was great, I loved Nathan's return, I knew he was going to redem himself, so cool.  I liked Hiro stabbing Sylar, but I agree with Talavar, I rather wish he'd actually been killed.  It's funny, when he stabbed him, I said outloud "cut his head off, or he's not dead."  Surprise surprise, he slunk away.  Anyway, what really let me down was the Peter/Sylar fight.  Peter did jack...he didn't use his powers AT ALL.  He's got invisibility, telekinesis, time control, flight, radiation, and even super strength to draw from (after Nikki shows up).  Instead, he stands there like a punk while Sylar rides roughshod over him....AGAIN!  He wasn't caught off guard this time, he's had a bit more time to get control of his powers, I REALLY wanted to see a halfway decent fight.  The bit with Nikki was nice, but I'd have rather seen Peter do it, since he kept being built up into a hero who would save the world.  What precisely did he do?  Really?  Kill Sylar?  Nope.  Stop the bomb?  Nadda, Nathan takes the credit there.  So....the big build up to their fight and we get....Nathan throwing a handful of punches....wow....I'm so impressed. :angry:  Am I the only one who feels this way?[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I'm beginning to think that crazy awesome superhero fights weren't in their budget this season.  Maybe next season.

Also, it was really cool when Molly and Micah were together.  I really hope we see the two of them more as their powers develop more.
[/spoiler]

Wow.  That was really cool.  At the same time, it was a little underwhelming.  It really didn't resolve much or give many answers.  But that's how season finales work, I guess.

[spoiler]
Finally we get a substantial Peter vs. Sylar fight!  That last fight scene was so cool.  Peter also didn't dominate the fight, which is great.  The show shouldn't just be about him.  But, like others, I really wish Sylar had died.  He just doesn't have much dramatic potential left.  Hopefully the writers will come up with something halfway decent for next season.

Hiro was awesome.  From going to save Ando, to teleporting him to Japan and Ando's "You look hardcase" comment, to stabbing Sylar but then getting sent back to Feudal Japan.  And of course, swearing in Japanese.

Niki was awesome too.  She's finally independent of Jessica, and in complete control of her powers. 

Nathan was amazing.  I was kind of expecting what he did, but they really pulled it off.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
Wow, great finale!! Just a few high points for me:

- Mr. Duveau was part of the old "Super Team," which also included Mr. and Mrs. Petrelli, Linderman, and Mr. Nakamura! Awesome tie- in.

- Peter now has Super Strength. Cool. Do you think he was close enough to DL, Micah, and Molly to get their powers too? Nah, neither do I.

- I also hope Sylar bleeds out in the sewer, but I doubt it.

- I bet Nate died, but Pete lived. Just guessing.

- Noah Bennett?!? Wasn't expecting that one.

- Molly and Micah could make an easy system to find every "Super" now! YES!

- No more Jessica! Now Niki's storyline might make sense!

Can't wait for Season 2!
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I called the ending about two episodes ago, too.  I knew Nathan would redeem himself by flying Peter away.. it was the way the show started, after all.

Did anybody notice the cockroach crawling on the manhole cover at the end?  Another reference to the first episode, where Mohinder lectures that cockroaches are the most powerful creatures/God's image..

I liked Molly and Micah bonding as well!  Really cool

Poor Matt Parkman!   :(  I hope he's ok.  What was he thinking?? I guess he didn't know how dangerous Sylar was. 

I cheered out loud when Nikki glared at Sylar like she was gonna smack him down.  Then when I saw the parking meter coming loose, I thought she'd catch it and just wail on Sylar with it (*weild* Freedom Force-style) But still, that was awesome.. was this the first time Nikki and Peter met?  In the now "true" timeline?   

I'm glad DL is okay!  I guess it means Peter and Nikki may not end up together like in teh alternate future.

It was a great fight scene.  I think there was just enough of Peter smacking Sylar around without it becoming solely about the fight.  Any more and it might have lost its impact. 

Hiro showing up at just the right moment was awesome.

So.. does anyone know what Mrs. Petrelli's power is?  And why when we first meet her, she's just been bailed out of jail for shoplifting?  Was it really so she could "feel alive" again?[/spoiler]

 :doh:

I completely forgot this was on!  :banghead:

What I liked:

[spoiler]
Pretty much everything with Hiro, HRG and Claire.  Highlights were: "I already have a family", regarding in rousing cheers from me as Claire threw herself out the window, picked up and ran off.

"Tell me you have a plan." and HRG (btw. Noah?  Any significance there?) on the spot coming up with a revised plan. Kudos to Jack Coleman for taking a character I was sure I was going to hate and turning him into my second favorite character on the show.

Molly. While I'm not too sure about Mohinders sister issues, the actress was amazing, and I hope we see more of her next season.

Jessica realizing Niki doesn't need her anymore and letting go. (Still wouldve prefered a merge into a new third personality, tho)

And of course, as usual Hiro was near perfect: From facing down Sulu, to trickiing Sylar (minor question: How, exactly, did Sylar know Hiro can bend time?  It seems an odd assumption to make on the basis of the last episode.) to ramming the sword through Sylar's chest (which also evicted hearty cheers).

[/spoiler]

What I didn't like:
[spoiler]
Richard Roundtrees bland and sappy speeches about how "all the world needs is hope" and how Peter is a true hero because he can love unconditionally. Gag. That scene served no discernable purpose; combine that with the nausea inducing speechifying and it should never have stayed in.

Like everyone else, I am less than thrilled that Sylar survived (liked the cockroach on the manhole cover though- that was a nice touch).  I canot imagine any storyarc for him next season that would not be a) degeenrativley cheesy or b) a warmed over rehash of his storyline from this season. It wouldve been a much more fitting ending for him to have bled out on the plaza.

I am also less than thrilled with the anvilicious foreshadowing of a new villan even worse than Sylar, though the actess who plays Molly sold it very well- her delivery of "When I think about him- he can SEE ME" gave me shivers (btw, how did she find out about him in the first place, then?  She has to think about someone to know where they are, after all).

[/spoiler]

Misc:
[spoiler]

Its going to be a very fine line next season with Hiro- having him meet his Idol is fine- having him become the guy is cheesy and I really hope they dont go there.

Mrs. bredon pointed out that since in the timeline Hiro visited Peter was the bomb and was fine, its safe to assume that exploding doesn't kill him this time, either.  Which leaves the questions of :" Will he wake up as he falls back to Earth in time to fly away? or is Claire's power strong enough to repair both rentry damage and the impact of a 50000+ foot fall? "(nathan, on the other hand is toast. Goodbye, nathan- you switched sides so many times you gave me whiplash, but in the end, you turned out ok)

Why did Candace claim she was obese as her real form, when after Niki punches her lights out (yay!) she clearly goes back to being hot?

Why are people being stupid and thinking they who have no powers or powers of limited use think they can stop a super-powered serial killer? I'd give Parkman/Ando the new title of "dumbest smart person on the show", cept I never thought either of them was that smart ot begin with.

[/spoiler]

Still. Loved the finale, love the show. Anxiously awaiting the Season 1 DVD :)

[spoiler]
I guess I'm the only one who didn't like Molly and Micah.  My thought when they had their little back and forth about the elevator was, "Oh great, adventures of the super-kids."

Are we sure Mrs. Petrelli has powers?  Couldn't she just be fulfilling her husband's role in Linderman's organization, since he told her about it?

I can understand the writers wanting to take Hiro out of action for awhile, but I hope they don't leave him in the past for too long.  He's my favourite character, but also, now that he seems to be in control of his powers - except maybe for emergency jumps - he should be able to come back to the present fairly easily.

Matt Parkman, while I hope his character makes it, was really dumb.  He's shot Sylar before, to no effect, and thinks that this time it'll do the trick, when Sylar's only more powerful?  Dumb. 

I was also a little let-down by the Peter-Sylar fight, since Peter didn't really use any powers, except possible Nikki's super-strength for those punches - they looked like they stung.  Nikki and Hiro really beat him, both by coming out of left field. 
[/spoiler]

My thoughts about the episode:

A couple things I really liked:

[spoiler]Jessica gone and Nikki having her super-strength. Frankly, I was hoping they'd either do that or have Nikki and Jessica both get killed off, as I think the split-personality thing had pretty much run its course and was the most contrived gimmick of all the heroes.

DL not being killed off. I've grown to like DL, and he's got one of the best powers.[/spoiler]

A few thing I didn't like:

[spoiler]We don't know if Matt, Nathan or Peter are dead or not. I'm kind of hoping Nathan is but Matt and Peter aren't.

Sylar stopping Matt's bullets and hurling him back at him. I mentioned this to FN while playing CoH, and he pointed out that Sylar has super-hearing, so he could have very well started to react as soon as he heard Matt pull the trigger. This is the only thing that makes sense, because otherwise nothing short of super-speed would explain how he reacted fast enough to stop the bullets considering his back was turned when Matt fired the gun.

Sylar possibly surviving. I think its a big mistake, as I think he's going to go from being an interesting villain to this season to a character people are going to get quickly sick of last season. And since it looked like Hiro did get him through the heart and blade of the sword came out his back, the only way I can think of him surviving is that he got to Linderman and there was enough of his brain left for Sylar to gain his powers and he healed himself enough to crawl away but was too weak to heal himself fully.

The end fight sucked. It would have been better if there had been more teamwork amongst the characters and they had teamed up to beat Sylar instead of it being as random as it was. That's the ONLY reason I wouldn't mind seeing Sylar survive: for the heroes to team up and beat the snot out of him and finish him off for good next time.[/spoiler]

:( no more Heroes til next season...

[spoiler]Finale was pretty good, not quite as epic as I thought it'd be, but I was still impressed. I was disappointed that Peter did turn out to be the bomb, I didnt really understand why he couldn't control it. I liked Nathan's appearance at the end though. I wonder if they survived, Peter should.

Love Hiro, him and Ando every thing they do is just fantastic and makes me smile.

I'm glad there wasn't a huge death toll in this one. DL looks like he survived, he's one of my favorites. Never liked Nikki but she was pretty cool in this one. I hope the creators have a good idea of what to do next with Sylar, otherwise they should have just let him die.

Thats all, just wanted to say a few things.

[/spoiler]

I think it would be cool if they kept Sylar off for a season, only to have him emerge as the new leader of the Company in season 3.

Honestly, it was hit and miss with me.

[spoiler]I liked a lot of it.  It had a lot of good moments, but there are parts that I still don't understand.  Let me explain... or question rather.

Can someone tell me what happen to Molly?  At the beginning when something was wrong with her?  How was she able to be okay to get out of bed and run out of a building as if nothing was wrong in the first place?

Can someone explain to my why is Sylar fast enough to stop bullets like God from heaven, but Hiro coming at him with a sword he can't stop?  I know Hiro can stop time, but I hardly believe he did it then.  Speaking of which...

I see I'm not the only one a bit letdown by the final fight.  Unlike others who were simply letdown, I thought it was a bit dorky.  It started off promising...  frankly, I think everyone would have loved to have seen something along the scale of their battle 5 years later.  I mean, I see the two of them there and then Nikki shows up and smacks him with a meter.  At that moment, I thought we were going to see somre grand-scale team fight, Claire, Peter, Nikki, even DL and Parkman directing from the side. But none of that.  Hiro just shows up and stabs him.  Nothing dramatic.

One other thing I wondered about was why didn't Peter just fly away his damn self?  Why would it be up to Nathan?  Peter can fly.  He didn't need Nathan to detonate the bomb in the sky.

And why was Peter able to control Ted's powers last week, but now?

As for next season?  I'm extremely confident Nathan, Peter, DL and Parkaman will all be back.  Contractual reasons.  I still don't think Linderman's out of the picture.  I'm sure, as we already know Sylar won't be the main villain next season either.  In fact, we may see him transformed to the main villian's muscle.  It's gonna be interesting to see where they take it.  I'm sure their lives won't go back to any sort of normalcy.  They're all now connected and now they all know...  I'm confident we'll get backstories of Mr. Devereau, "Dallas" Petrelli, Mom Petrelli, Linderman and Kaito Nakumura and how they relate and what happened.  It's gonna be interesting to see.[/spoiler]

And man does Tawny Cypruss have some lush and beautiful lips.

 :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler: :spoiler:

One other thing I wondered about was why didn't Peter just fly away his damn self?  Why would it be up to Nathan?  Peter can fly.  He didn't need Nathan to detonate the bomb in the sky.

And why was Peter able to control Ted's powers last week, but now?

I agree.

I originally picked Nathan flying Sylar away to detonate in the sky. I liked my ending better.

Can Peter activate two powers at the same time? I can't recall him doing so. That might be your answer.

[spoiler]I liked the episode but the final fight was a bit of a letdown but I kinda expected it to be so. The reason is simple, it was mentioned once already, budget for the fight. I just don't think Heroes had the budget for a big fight like people wanted. Notice in the five years later episode it cuts off before Sylar & Peter really start doing anything other than powering up.

My question now is, did the writers realize they couldn't do a good enough fight scene and write Sylar surviving to slink away into it hoping to do it better next season? Or was that going to happen regaurdless?

The reasons I think Peter couldn't shut off the power are, Ted mentioned one or at least hinted, it has to be vented or let off at least a little bit from time to time. Of course since Peter only has one power at a time would that rule apply to him? The other reason is he was worked up about the whole bomb and future predictions, he is already kind of a nervous guy so having to deal with the fact he may or may not be the bomb then realizing he must be messed with him something fierce. Hero can't control his powers when he is worked up either.[/spoiler]

Talavar:

[spoiler]
Are we sure Mrs. Petrelli has powers?  Couldn't she just be fulfilling her husband's role in Linderman's organization, since he told her about it?

We're not sure, but she strongly hinted so, telling Claire that she needed to get away so she could decide for herself as an adult whether she wanted to be part of the "madness" as she herself once did.

Claire responds by asking Mrs. Petrelli if she has powers, but she does not answer the question.

So it's open, but strongly hinted.
[/spoiler]

And a couple of more things:

[spoiler]Yes, Peter could handle Isaac's powers, but don't forget, if he's around or absorbs too many powers at once, he's been known to go berserk, with his powers activating uncontrollable.  This episode was actually minor compared to the earlier one where Claude knocked him out, but he didn't have Isaac's powers yet.  I doubt he could fly away, or use any of the his powers normally, while in this state.  And it no suprise, given that he's currently surround by several different supers, four of which have powrs and he's never encountered before (although we only see him absorbing Niki's Super Strength for sure.  Yes I think he used it for those punches)

While I'm not entire adverse to Sylar's return, I agree that I don't like the way they did it.  There seems to be no way without Claire's powers for him to survive a sword stab through the heart.  Granted, he was able to survive a long fall off a roof before, but still, it seems contrived and not well thought out like most things in this show.  I thought for sure he was dead and that future Sylar would pop up in his place.  It was the only thing that would have made sense.  I guess they decided not to make any sense.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 21, 2007, 09:38:09 PM
minor question: How, exactly, did Sylar know Hiro can bend time?  It seems an odd assumption to make on the basis of the last episode.

Because of his power to see how things work.  He saw what Hiro did and was able to understand how he did it.  Remember how he started talking about how Bryan was "broken" after he saw his power demonstrated in Sixth Months Ago?  It was the same thing.
[/spoiler]

I have an idea or two what they will do with Sylar next season but it still doesn't get us past how he survived thing. 

[spoiler]

• He winds up working for Angela Petrelli impersonating Nathan so she can maintain Congressional influence.  This would not be for the whole season but just the first few episodes and then the real Nathan comes back.  Now, this would also mean that he encounters Candice and kills her off, of couse.
• The "boogeyman" that Molly mentioned surfaces and Sylar joins with the Heroes to stop him.  I'm pretty sure it was said it was a him.  Sylar's desire for importance would lead him to want to be greater than that person.  Of course, there is still the issue that Sylar would likely want to steal that person's powers.
  
• I could also see a new "Company" figure emerging and capturing Sylar.  Sylar would stay with the Company for a while and possibly become the new right hand man for the company in season three.
  

[/spoiler]

One slight misunderstanding, Hamrick

[spoiler]Sylar is the Boogeyman.  The new threat was not called that.

The rest of your point may be valid, but I think it's a thing, not a person.  I think it's the mysterious monster who's showed up in the background in Isaac's drawings on a few occasions.[/spoiler]

My own take on a question that's been brought up here:

[spoiler]
The question relates to why Sylar can react to the gun firing, but is utterly unable to do anything about Hiro charging with a sword.  My take is that it was purely a psychological issue.  Hiro was the one character that repeatedly spooked Sylar in the last few episodes.  Hiro might have been unable to do anything against Sylar in the past, but he always got away before Sylar could do anything about it.

Add to this the fact that in this episode, Sylar finally saw the comic book that showed Hiro impaling him.  He also saw that Hiro beat Sylar at his own challenge - he saved Ando before Sylar could cut off his head.  What's more, it's not as if Sylar could just write off Isaac's prediction of the future - he's had that same ability for a while now, and has apparently put stock in it.

So, when Sylar finally saw Hiro in the big conflict at the end, determined and ready to strike, I think he just psychologically froze.  He was mentally prepared to deal with anything else that could happen, but not Hiro.[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 22, 2007, 06:47:42 AM
One slight misunderstanding, Hamrick

[spoiler]Sylar is the Boogeyman.  The new threat was not called that.

The rest of your point may be valid, but I think it's a thing, not a person.  I think it's the mysterious monster who's showed up in the background in Isaac's drawings on a few occasions.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]I beg to differ, Cat.  She was willing and able to track Sylar from what I saw.  She stated that there was one person she couldn't track because he could see her.  There was no implication that it was Sylar that she was referring to and the fact that she immediately afterwards tracked Sylar implies that it was someone else.  I'm not disputing that the "monster in the background" might show up.  However, the "Hiro vs. dinosaur battle" was a misleading one and didn't happen the way everyone was expecting.  It didn't happen at all.  There may still be a chance it will but still that fight won't be exactly what was in Isaac's painting.  Remember, MANY of Isaac's paintings have been open to interpretation and have in fact turned out different than speculated.  Some have been prevented all together.  
[/spoiler]

I just got an email from Hana.  This may be something of interest: www.yamagatofellowship.org (http://www.yamagatofellowship.org).  

Hana also mentions on her blog that there were two tracking systems and that one was a satellite.  She is supposedly "hitching a ride on a Chinese Shuttle" to get up to it.  That would be a reference to the current graphic novel where it looks as though she might die.  

Hamrick, you, like, totally did not get what I was talking about AT ALL.

[spoiler]
I didn't say that Sylar was the person she couldn't see.  I said Sylar was the Boogeyman.  Re-watch this episode and the one before it and you'll see that she doesn't, or didn't, know Sylar by name, so she started calling him the Boogeyman.

This mysterious individual that she can't or won't look at is NEVER referred to as the Boogeyman.  He is never referred to as anything at all.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]You know, for an episode that they've been hyping up so much, I knew what was going to happen way back when Peter first learned he was the bomb, and dream Nathan said "Let me help you Peter." I'm kinda ticked about the fight scene too... talk about lack of budget all you want, but you could have written around any effects.

A few things:

My theory on the Bullets vs swords thing- Stopping bullets might be a reflex, I think. Soon as he hears the gunshot he just holds everything in place with telekenesis. On the other hand, he sees Hiro coming at him, he's thinking "I'm dead!" because of the comic book, and that slows him down long enough for Hiro to stab him.

As far as healing goes... Firstly, I don't think Hiro got his heart. I'd have to look again, but it seems like Hiro only gets him in the chest. Plus, with his telekenesis, he can stop blood flow so he can't bleed to death.

I'm having trouble reconciling the events in this episode with the ones in the future one. Specifically Parkman. Everyone else I can just explain away. (Nathan came in this timeline because of Hiro calling him a villain, Hiro stabbed Sylar stopping him from interferring, if the bomb went off DL kept everyone close to him from getting killed by the bomb, but the effort killed him, etc.) but Parkman perplexes me. I guess you could explain it away by saying Hiro's conversations did something that changed how Sylar handled the bullets, but that's a cop out.

I did like how it explains Peter's dreams... I had thought it was Mr. Petrellis power, but it makes more sense from the standpoint that he began to use it as he started working for Charles.

All in all, a good episode... but not as good as it should have been[/spoiler]

Got an idea for Sylar in the next season that, in my opinion, would make his return a little more interesting:

Instead of Sylar going back to his old MO, he finds that many of the heroes he's tracking down are systematically having their brains removed by some other person.  This antagonist to Sylar is doing so in order to prevent him from getting too powerful and believes that the only way to stop this is by killing other powerful heroes (at least the ones he deems too powerful).  So a part of the second season's story is Sylar trying to find out who this person is and trying to beat him or her to the punch.

This anti-hero doesn't need to have a power, just the ability to track them down and eliminate those whose powers would constitute a threat if Sylar (or Peter for that matter) were to absorb their ability.

Everyone is assuming that Sylar slunk away to the sewers. It's just as possible that his body was dragged into the sewers.

-MJB

[spoiler]I hope Parkman is alright.  He pulled a pretty dumb stunt, though.  "Crap...he's stopping my bullets.  I guess I should fire some more!"[/spoiler]

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 22, 2007, 07:36:48 AM
Hamrick, you, like, totally did not get what I was talking about AT ALL.

[spoiler]
I didn't say that Sylar was the person she couldn't see.  I said Sylar was the Boogeyman.  Re-watch this episode and the one before it and you'll see that she doesn't, or didn't, know Sylar by name, so she started calling him the Boogeyman.

This mysterious individual that she can't or won't look at is NEVER referred to as the Boogeyman.  He is never referred to as anything at all.
[/spoiler]

[spoiler]
The Big Bad that she is referring to is not the Boogeyman, she's talking about Galactus!![/spoiler]

I just had a thought...

[spoiler]Perhaps Sylar didn't crawl into the sewer...perhaps he was DRAGGED in, by the being that Molly referenced earlier in the episode...[/spoiler]

Quote from: The Pwime on May 22, 2007, 02:01:40 PM
I just had a thought...

[spoiler]Perhaps Sylar didn't crawl into the sewer...perhaps he was DRAGGED in, by the being that Molly referenced earlier in the episode...[/spoiler]

I beat you to it. :P

Look a few posts up. ;)

-MJB

MJB and Prime are on the right train of thought, I think. Guess we'll find out.

Now, I had one major problem with the whole of this episode...

I mean, I can ignore the inconsistencies with powers, I can ignore Sylars (possible) survival (Maybe something ate HIS brains? heh), I can (only with mild sedatives) ignore the whole 'he had 3-5 seconds to TK hiros arse all over the place before Hiro stabbed him' thing, but theres just one thing I cannot ignore, one thing that staggers belief, and breaks the borders of the imagination...

There is no place in New York where a street is THAT empty, or even a place where you can conk out for a few hours. I mean, come on, keep it believable here! :P ;)

Quote from: MJB on May 22, 2007, 02:39:18 PM

Quote from: The Pwime on May 22, 2007, 02:01:40 PM
I just had a thought...

[spoiler]Perhaps Sylar didn't crawl into the sewer...perhaps he was DRAGGED in, by the being that Molly referenced earlier in the episode...[/spoiler]

I beat you to it. :P

Look a few posts up. ;)

-MJB

aww poop.  :P

Quote from: Sevenforce on May 22, 2007, 02:42:02 PM
MJB and Prime are on the right train of thought, I think. Guess we'll find out.

Now, I had one major problem with the whole of this episode...

I mean, I can ignore the inconsistencies with powers, I can ignore Sylars (possible) survival (Maybe something ate HIS brains? heh), I can (only with mild sedatives) ignore the whole 'he had 3-5 seconds to TK hiros [expletive deleted] all over the place before Hiro stabbed him' thing, but theres just one thing I cannot ignore, one thing that staggers belief, and breaks the borders of the imagination...

There is no place in New York where a street is THAT empty, or even a place where you can conk out for a few hours. I mean, come on, keep it believable here! :P ;)

;) i know there was something wrong with this eps. i was watching it and something just didnt seem right to me. thanks seven  :thumbup:

[spoiler]Hiro can alter time for specific objects, remember? (clock, subway, gun). That means he could have just slowed down time for Sylar as he was taking his run-up and stabbed him before slow-Sylar could respond.

Oh, and theoretically, a combination of Sylar's "I know how things work" and TK could have allowed him to survive being stabbed, by manipulating everything back to where it should be.[/spoiler]

Sylar is generally a pretty tough cookie.  Twice in the past he has been able to overcome being drugged (The Company and Mohinder).  It possible he ate someone who had some form of healing or increased metabolism or something.  [spoiler]As long as he wasn't stabbed directly though the heart he might be able to drag homself off.[/spoiler]

I'm thinking Sylar didn't crawl off, he was dragged... by Claude.

[spoiler]While I think the notion of him being dragged off isn't nescessarily wrong, you guys are overlooking something... Sylar, or at least the guy playing Sylar, is already signed on as a main character in season 2. So regardless of being dragged or taken off (or whether he just picked himself up with tk) he's alive.

As for Mr. Hamrick's comment about Sylar impersonating Nathan for Mrs. Petrelli... Errrr why? Candice isn't dead, Niki just kicked her butt. She's already loyal to "The Organization" Oh, he might very well come in and impersonate her impersonating him(O.-) but I very much doubt Mrs. Petrelli will trust a mass-murdering psycho.

On a similar note... After the Niki v Candice fight, I was kind of looking forward to seeing the "real" Candice... they made mention of how she didn't really look like her "main" form, and that she was likely chubby... and they copped out.

My one huge inner struggle is... even though I know he's ok (because he was alive in the future even though he exploded there too) they need to do something with Peter. He's gotten way too powerful, so eithor they need to find a limiting force to put on his powers, or kill him off. Don't get me wrong, I like the character, but he's got more superpowers then post-crisis Supes now.

Oh, and one other thing... everyone's assuming that Isaac's little comic was how Sylar was supposed to die... but we have a whole sketchbook of future paintings that he gave to that Asain dude just floating around out there. Plus, we haven't even seen the first couple of 9th Wonders[/spoiler]

Grah, forgot spoiler tags. if anyone cares.

And on to that. We never see if Sylar is supposed to be dead in the comicbook. Also, in future Hiro time, didn't Hiro stab him there in his past? ANd he lived?

Yes, but he had Claire's powers in that timeline.  Hence "save the cheerleader, save the world."

Of course saving the cheerleader did turn out to be critical, just not in the expected way.

So what exactly was Sylar's original power? To simply see how things work and be able to fix them? In essence is he a master surgeon, mechanic, etc. by default then?

I just want to know if he got some degree of super toughness from someone or simply can patch himself up due to his "Mr. Fix It" power he originally started with.

Also is he eating these people's brains or merely tinkering to see how they work then adjusting his own brain or something? Does this mean the root of every single super power in this world is based in the mind?

Lastly, would that bullet have really killed Nikki? I mean to even be able to wield the strength she possesses would require a great deal more toughness than a normal person, or else she'd break her arms/legs/etc whenever exerting so much force would she not. I know I may just be over thinking this a bit but I just wonder if that bullet really would have killed her, I imagine just by being strong enough to bend solid steel with her bare hands (and not rip her hands to pieces) that her body must be at least tough enough to withstand small arms fire like Linderman's gun at any range. Normally I would go with the don't think about it approach but wouldn't this represent an inconsistency story wise by the writers? After all if I show a character breath underwater then drown in a puddle or get suffocated in a toilet bowl later that wouldn't make much sense now would it?

I have just always operated under the assumption that if you have very much super strength (like starting at a point when you can say lift a car over your head or motorcycle then throw it) above a normal person's that a degree of toughness naturally comes with it. This is why people like Spider-man can take such a phenomenal (would easily kill a normal person) beating or punch through a metal car door/roof without breaking their arms or cutting themselves to pieces.

[spoiler]I think Sylar absorbs the brains, because once he's finished, there's nothing left of them.  We never get to see it happen though, i guess it is up to the audience's imagination *shudder*

Sylar's clockwork power shouldn't allow him to heal himself; it's more of a visionary ability to allow him to see the right way to fix something.  Like he has the blueprint to any problem and an instruction manual pops up in his mind.  I think it's possible that he could use TK force to speed up the healing process though, or minimize the blood loss.  But a sword through the heart... once the circulatory system is crippled, he hasn't got much time at all.  Well, if he's that great of a telekeneticist he could probably use his power to hold his heart together and pump his own blood at the same time?

I have a feeling that, given the many references from the X-Men, Sylar will survive to form a Morlock-like band of Specials from the sewers... and become a kind of anti-hero.  Maybe he'll atone for his mass murders by trying to help others?  Or meet the so-called Big Bad down there, and become his lapdog in the hopes of begging for crumbs?

Regardless, we have to assume he's still out there, and he has nuclear power at his command, so New York isn't really safe yet.

One other thing - if Peter Petrelli was this close to Sylar, and absorbed his clockwork power, why didn't he know how to stop himself going nuclear?  He could also have teleported himself using Hiro's ability, to a safe location, and discharged the nuclear power... or flown... [/spoiler]

I already answered that question, rev, but here it goes again:

[spoiler]It's already been demonstrated that when Peter's power go berserk due to absorbing too many powers, they begin going off uncontrollably.  During such an episode, he seems unable to control his powers at all, so he can't do any of the above.[/spoiler]

SouperIan: Hiro never controlled time for specific items (clock, sunway,etc.) He stopped or reversed time for everyone and everything each time. No one else notices, because time continues normally for them. They, and the objects are stopped until everything restarts, so they don't even notice.

Here's a question, and I hope it hasn't already been answered... When Hiro went into the future in the beginning of the series and saw the bomb explode, wasn't it day time? The whole event occurred at night in the last episode. Is that an inconsistancy?

Just curious.

(For the record, I still haven't heard a plausible explanation for why Sylat could stop bullets, but not a sword... afraid? Erm, I don't know about that.)

Can't Peter only use one power at a time?  And in this case, going nuclear must have overridden all his other powers.

Quote from: Mowgli on May 23, 2007, 01:26:00 PM
SouperIan: Hiro never controlled time for specific items (clock, sunway,etc.) He stopped or reversed time for everyone and everything each time. No one else notices, because time continues normally for them. They, and the objects are stopped until everything restarts, so they don't even notice.

Yes, he did. He reversed time for Hope's gun without affecting anything else - Ando notices this, and, if I'm remembering correctly, Hope looked pretty surprised as well.

Inconsistencies are what ruin this show for me. Don't get me wrong, still awesome...but characters doing things out of character and powers doing wonky things they shouldn't do just pulls too far from the enjoyment (reference Hiro - and also, cool fade effect, but hes stopping time, not slowing it down, so shouldn't be a fade, but more a 'there and gone' thing, as was depicted earlier. But then, if he WAS stopping time he'd have to beat the whole absolute zero thing. Hmmmm... *bashes self on head for thinking too much. Thinky things bad. Bad thinky seven)

But, as I've mentioned, I'm a nitpicker :lol:

Sylar being stabbed via heart - I don't think so, but then again I'm no doctor/assassin. I checked, its most likely that hes been stabbed in a lung, having gone through the gladiolus or manubrium. Still deadly, but less so. As the few biology books I have mentioned, the hearts usually 'a little up and to the left' of the hemithorax, whereas Hiro stabbed him straight through the middle.

I noticed the night time thing too, Mowgli, and just figured it being that the timeline had been changed.

I have a question...would Peter have ever met Ted if Hiro didn't exist? I mean, Future Hiro kinda set everything in motion for this bomb (and is probably wiped out of existence now, which now means this reality should be wiped, etc etc reference grandfather paradox). And then, therefore, would the bomb have gone off? I know they started showing abilities before Peter met Future Hiro, but Future Hiro majorly directed everything for them to meet. Hmm.

Future Hiro said that in the timeline he remembers, Sylar was the bomb.  Or at least, he thinks Sylar was.

Turned out Nathan had covered up for Peter, though, didn't it? Or is that because the timelines been...ok, timeline discussion over. Why do I keep doing this? I ain't going there - again &lt;_&lt;

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 23, 2007, 09:02:16 AM
I already answered that question, rev, but here it goes again:

[spoiler]It's already been demonstrated that when Peter's power go berserk due to absorbing too many powers, they begin going off uncontrollably.  During such an episode, he seems unable to control his powers at all, so he can't do any of the above.[/spoiler]

Not to mention that

[spoiler]
Peter has NO idea that Sylar has any power other than TK. (Which I still maintain Peter should not have been able to absorb, but thats another thread).  He can't access powers he doesn't know about or he'd have used superhaering or melty boy's power.  So even if he could use two powers at a time, one of them wouldnt be Sylar's original power. [/spoiler]

Quote from: Mowgli on May 23, 2007, 01:26:00 PM
(For the record, I still haven't heard a plausible explanation for why Sylat could stop bullets, but not a sword... afraid? Erm, I don't know about that.)

I think saying "Sylar was afraid" would be quite an oversimplification.  From all evidence shown on the show, Sylar pretty much embraced the notion that predictions of the future would happen.  His being dismissive of the sword impaling in the comic book was the one anomaly.

When Sylar visited his mother, he was (initially) desperate to find something to refute what he thought the future predicted.  After that didn't go so well, however, he plunged off the deep end and viewed it as destiny.

Add to this, Sylar's previous encounters with Hiro have shown Hiro to be nervous, weak-willed, and only quick enough to save his own skin.  I find it reasonable to believe that having Hiro suddenly teleport in, completely confident, and charging with his sword, would be enough to give Hiro the necessary advantage.  Sylar was suddenly facing a different Hiro than he had expected, and that could have been enough to make him hesitate.

Or, maybe he just... y'know, realized that his bladder was full and didn't expect Hiro to show up until after the commercial break.

Quote from: bredon7777 on May 24, 2007, 07:08:02 AM

Quote from: catwhowalksbyhimself on May 23, 2007, 09:02:16 AM
I already answered that question, rev, but here it goes again:

[spoiler]It's already been demonstrated that when Peter's power go berserk due to absorbing too many powers, they begin going off uncontrollably.  During such an episode, he seems unable to control his powers at all, so he can't do any of the above.[/spoiler]

Not to mention that

[spoiler]
Peter has NO idea that Sylar has any power other than TK. (Which I still maintain Peter should not have been able to absorb, but thats another thread).  He can't access powers he doesn't know about or he'd have used superhaering or melty boy's power.  So even if he could use two powers at a time, one of them wouldnt be Sylar's original power. [/spoiler]

Bredon, that's not true at all, as when he met Claude, he absorbed his ability without even knowing he was there, just like he absorbed Nathan's ability to fly without knowing he could do it.