NBC's _Heroes_

[stumpy]

[...] I get the distinct impression we are talking past, not to each other at this point.

Apparently.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

You would have me believe that these powers (which have not malfunctioned when he was not trying to use them before or since- thats a key point- he was not trying to use his powers in that scene) just chose that moment to randomly malfunction- a moment just before he would have accomplished something that would have changed his personal timeline.

I'm sorry, I cant buy that. It feels like lame, forced and sloppy writing. "Whoops, random power moment that has never happened before and will never happen again".

Actually, his powers misfired at a moment of great emotional impact, AFTER he'd already discovered that Charlie was going to die anyways and that he had already failed in his mission to save her, whether Sylar got her or not.  We've already seen that his emotional and mental state has a great impact on his powers, so why assume that this is not the case here as well?

[Pyroclasm]

Hiro's attempt to save Charlie is independent of her eventual death.  He did not know she was already ill when Sylar killed her.  For him, he feels he failed to save her, but he isn't a god.  He didn't know she had a condition, and even if he did, he has no control over natural processes.  He DID save her, only he saved her from a violent death and in the process prevented Sylar from acquiring a very strong power.  It's "coincidental" that she died anyway. (More because the writers didn't want Hiro to have an ongoing girlfriend or the constant "Gotta keep her away from Sylar" that would have resulted.  "Save the Waitress, Save the World?")  Had he known she was ill, would he have gone back to "save" her anyway?  I think he would have.  She didn't deserve to have her head cut open, and Sylar definitely shouldn't have gotten the information absorption ability.
We've seen before that stress makes Hiro's powers act oddly, so any resultant loss or misfiring is easily explained by his mental state.
In regards to Future Hiro:  Yes, he was trying to change the future, but he was doing it by contacting Peter rather than just popping in behind Sylar and chopping him down with his sword.  Does he still believe he can't directly affect the past, or is the task to save the cheerleader a red herring, in actuality setting the course of events surrounding Peter?  If he didn't send Peter there, most of the events in the show would have played out differently.
I'm not sure the writers have over-analyzed the methods and types of time travel and their philosophical implications about reality, fate, and their role beyond the narrative.

[bredon7777]

First, I was pretty sure that Sylar still wound up killing Charlie. not that the tumor got her.
Hasn't it been confirmed that she's a victim despite Hiro's intervention?

Second while I buy that stress makes powers go wonky, stress making powers go wonky when they're not being used (except for always on ones like Claire's, and to a lesser extent, Issac's) is just too much of a stretch for me.

[Conduit]

First, I was pretty sure that Sylar still wound up killing Charlie. not that the tumor got her.
Hasn't it been confirmed that she's a victim despite Hiro's intervention?

Yes.  In Graphic Novel # 20, Road Kill, Sylar uses her power.

[Pyroclasm]

That's one of the issues I have with the Graphic Novels vs. the Show.  What I got out of the show (and others I've spoken to in RL), was that he didn't prevent her death, but prevented Sylar from getting her.  But you say the online comics contradict this.  Since I'd gather that many if not most of the audience, like me, do not read the online comics, we would not have that information.  I'd also think that if he really had that power, he would have had no need to keep Mohinder around.  Read the list, or watch Mohinder work the program, and poof! no more need for the stupid smart guy.
Ok, then with that new information, I'd say that she must have chosen to die dispite the warning.  Since they reveal that she was ill in the show, perhaps she chose to be killed rather than suffer?  At that point then, it is still beyond Hiro's control.  He can go back and warn people, but each person has their own choices to make.  It's not like he can command anyone to do something to change events.

[stumpy]

Even before I read the comic, I kinda thought Sylar got to her, too, though the show doesn't make the circumstances of her death clear for the second time around. There was still a memorial to Charlie in the restaurant with flowers and pictures (including the one of Charlie and Hiro at her birthday), but I didn't see any police, crime scene tape, etc. Regardless of how she died, the circumstances of Charlie meeting Hiro in the "present" the second time around would be complicated, given how he blinked out on her right after she told him she loved him. I can see why the show wouldn't want to spend time trying to explain it. Still, it makes me wonder what Ando remembers...

I have been assuming that Sylar got her power, though it's not an easy one to check. But, I don't think Charlie was ever shown to be any kind of super-genius or anything, she just had developed memory powers. I mentioned earlier that if Sylar had seen Mohinder's list, he should be able to remember it. But, if he figures out the computer algorithm that generated the list, I would probably chalk that up to his own determining-how-things-tick ability.

[stumpy]

BTW, I notice the comic has been taking the same attitude that so many people who meet a special are freaked out and hateful. And, not just initially surprised at the ability and hesitant because it's unfamiliar and possibly dangerous, but they exhibit a longer term animus that borders on revulsion, even for beneficial powers like healing and even when it's the special's own parents or people he has healed who should be grateful.

I don't buy it. I don't know if it's some attempt to ape the mutant hysteria present in the X-Men books and movies of a while ago or something else, but it just doesn't strike me as a believable characterization of human nature that someone heals his mom's terminal cancer and she treats him like garbage.

[spoiler]
Some other thoughts mostly based on the comics:

How is Wireless getting around? It seems like she has that motorcycle wherever she goes, but she must be buying or stealing plane tickets to cross the country like that.

The comic is more evidence (though we already had plenty) that the emergence of the specials didn't just start a few months ago.

Also, I am glad we are running across more than one character with similar powers. It would strain credibility to have a huge host of characters and no duplicates or near-duplicates. I know writers tend to think in terms of archetypes, but it always bugs me when a show has a large cast, but there's always just one doctor, one technician, one guy with military training, one spoiled snob, etc.

BTW, any thoughts on who Austin is supposed to be in the present-day storyline? He would be coming up on sixty now, though presuming normal adult aging might be a mistake with someone like him. (It would certainly be a poorly justified assumption with someone like Claire, though she's not an adult yet.)[/spoiler]

[Pyroclasm]

My wife just mentioned something to me.  She indicated that when Hiro met Charlie the first time, she said a friend had given her the Japanese phrase book.  Hiro mentioned how good her japanese was.  She seemed to know what he was saying despite it not being typical japanese phrases.  Now, I had figured her absorption skill also gave her the abilty to use the knowledge she absorbed with little or no practice, thus her speaking it so well.  But my wife told me she believed that what Hiro didn't know was that HE was the friend that gave her the phrase book, and she spoke it so well because she practiced with him.  She said she thought Charlie treated him like she already knew him.  So Hiro had to go and try to "save" her because a future Hiro already made that choice.  In essence, he can't truly change the past because whatever the event he's trying to change already happened despite him trying to change it.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Yes, that rather confused me.  Because she did have the phrase book which Hiro himself gave her on the one hand, yet on the other, the picture of her birthday does not have Hiro there until he jumps back.

A bad inconsistency, IMO.

First, I was pretty sure that Sylar still wound up killing Charlie. not that the tumor got her.
Hasn't it been confirmed that she's a victim despite Hiro's intervention?

Yes, he did.  Even if you ignore the comics, Mohinder mentions it after that episode when he's talking to the FBI.

[bredon7777]

BTW, I notice the comic has been taking the same attitude that so many people who meet a special are freaked out and hateful. And, not just initially surprised at the ability and hesitant because it's unfamiliar and possibly dangerous, but they exhibit a longer term animus that borders on revulsion, even for beneficial powers like healing and even when it's the special's own parents or people he has healed who should be grateful.

I don't buy it. I don't know if it's some attempt to ape the mutant hysteria present in the X-Men books and movies of a while ago or something else, but it just doesn't strike me as a believable characterization of human nature that someone heals his mom's terminal cancer and she treats him like garbage.

Yup yup. I want to meet someone who sees a power demonstrated and goes "COOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL!"

[spoiler]
Some other thoughts mostly based on the comics:

How is Wireless getting around? It seems like she has that motorcycle wherever she goes, but she must be buying or stealing plane tickets to cross the country like that.

The comic is more evidence (though we already had plenty) that the emergence of the specials didn't just start a few months ago.

Also, I am glad we are running across more than one character with similar powers. It would strain credibility to have a huge host of characters and no duplicates or near-duplicates. I know writers tend to think in terms of archetypes, but it always bugs me when a show has a large cast, but there's always just one doctor, one technician, one guy with military training, one spoiled snob, etc.

BTW, any thoughts on who Austin is supposed to be in the present-day storyline? He would be coming up on sixty now, though presuming normal adult aging might be a mistake with someone like him. (It would certainly be a poorly justified assumption with someone like Claire, though she's not an adult yet.)[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

Edited to add: In this day of internet tickets, it would be easy as pie for Hana to simply create the tickets she needs to go somewhere.


As for Austin,  he's Linderman.  Age range is right, and Linderman has a power.

Edited to add: Confirmed.

http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/default.aspx

Question: Do you know what Linderman's special power is on Heroes?— Dan
Ausiello: You know what show I miss, Dan? Carnivale. That Ben Hawkins was one fascinating dude. Oh, the things he could do with his mind....

For those of you unfamiliar with the show, Ben Hawkins could heal...
[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

That's my guess as well.

[Conduit]

[spoiler]

As for Austin,  he's Linderman.  Age range is right, and Linderman has a power.

Edited to add: Confirmed.

http://www.tvguide.com/News-Views/Columnists/Ask-Ausiello/default.aspx

Question: Do you know what Linderman's special power is on Heroes?— Dan
Ausiello: You know what show I miss, Dan? Carnivale. That Ben Hawkins was one fascinating dude. Oh, the things he could do with his mind....

For those of you unfamiliar with the show, Ben Hawkins could heal...

Also, Austin looks almost exactly like a younger Malcolm McDowell. 
http://heroeswiki.com/images/c/c7/AustinLindermanMalcomMcDowell.JPG
[/spoiler]

[Protomorph]

Nice catch, on the look alike Conduit. It does look like that was exactly the reference they were using to draw him.

[Uncle Yuan]

Who is Austin?!

[stumpy]

Austin is a character from the online comic. He hasn't made an appearance on the show itself (yet).

[spoiler]At least not as a present-day character. In the comic, he is a healer (heals others, we don't know about self) and appears as part of a flashback. He was in Viet Nam with a character who Wireless is investigating as part of her quest to help out HRG. We don't know his whole role yet.[/spoiler]

[bredon7777]

Win a chance to see the episode before everone else at Universal Theme Parks:

http://www.nbc.com/Heroes/contest/

(Of course the 2 minute episode preview doesn't hurt either :) )

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Woo!

I just caught up on the comics, and they've answered quite a few questions!

In case you don't read them:

[spoiler]
Linderman is the head of the mysterious organization, and his partner was Mr. Petrelli.  Yep, that's right, the two co-founded the Company.
[/spoiler]

[Conduit]

[spoiler]
They may have founded the company, but it must be pretty independent now.  Previews of the next episode have made it clear that Linderman wants Peter to explode and destroy Manhattan, in the hope that it will unite the world.  The company, meanwhile, instead of sitting back and letting things happen, has tried to capture Peter.  They also gave Isaac a gun (and not some sort of non-lethal weapon) and told him to "save the world."  If they want Peter to explode, that's a HUGE risk to take.
[/spoiler]

[Conduit]

Responding to something posted a while back.

BTW, I notice the comic has been taking the same attitude that so many people who meet a special are freaked out and hateful. And, not just initially surprised at the ability and hesitant because it's unfamiliar and possibly dangerous, but they exhibit a longer term animus that borders on revulsion, even for beneficial powers like healing and even when it's the special's own parents or people he has healed who should be grateful.

I don't buy it. I don't know if it's some attempt to ape the mutant hysteria present in the X-Men books and movies of a while ago or something else, but it just doesn't strike me as a believable characterization of human nature that someone heals his mom's terminal cancer and she treats him like garbage.

I'd like to point out that Austin's parents and Dallas are the ONLY people on this show or in the comics who have had that reaction.  Except for when the special in question was Ted (completely understandable, I'd be scared of him too).  This is probably just an indication of the character of those particular people.  But, yeah, if a significant amount of other people reacted like that, it would be unbelievable.

Yup yup. I want to meet someone who sees a power demonstrated and goes "COOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLL!"

Zach had that reaction in the first episode.  I believe his exact words were, "Besides the fact that that was so gross I almost fudged myself, this is the single coolest thing to happen to this town in a hundred years."

[stumpy]

I'd like to point out that Austin's parents and Dallas are the ONLY people on this show or in the comics who have had that reaction.

Good point, but it's also worth noting that it's not like we have many examples of people reacting who were cool with it, either. We have almost no special characters where ordinary people (non-specials and non-special hunters like HRG or Mohinder) know they are special. I obviously can't read their minds, but I get the impression that 1) many specials are upset to find they have powers (we've seen plenty of this) and 2) they think others would react similarly and keep it on the DL. E.g., I get the impression that Nathan has never told anyone (he almost wouldn't even admit it to Peter), including his wife or mom (though she probably knew, as did Papa Petrelli).

I will concede that Ando thought Hiro's power was cool (at least for gambling and voyeurism), but I am not 100% convinced he is really a normal civilian, either.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Interesting tidbit I just learned.  Apparently a scene deleted from one of the first episodes of the series showed a police officer who Sylar had killed by freezing him solid.

I'm definitely hoping many of these scenes get restored for the DVD's.  Other scenes I've scene referenced also help answer questions many have had.

EDIT:  In a scene from Monday's episode (Yes, that's right, only two more days!)

[spoiler]
Nathan's mother mentions to Claire, in insisting that she leave the country until she's deemed old enough to make her own decisions, that she herself once decided to "join the madness."

There seems to me to be a hint that the grandmother has powers (which explains how most of here descendants do, since the father did not) as well as further hinting in her own involvement in the Company.
[/spoiler]

[OutsiderNo11]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is the possibility of Sylar absorbing not only Charlie's ability, but her blood clot issue as well.  This may be the very reason that future Hiro told Peter to save Claire, because with Claire's ability, he would be able to survive such a thing.  Another possibility is that present Hiro's time-traveling is purposely guided by his future self, which may explain why he is unable to control his time traveling at the moment.  It just seems to me that it is guiding him to where he needs to be rather then where he wants to be and there has to be some intelligent force behind that.

But I do think that Sylar, with Charlie's ability, will eventually develop the same issue she had, mostly likely because Charlie's ability may have been the cause of her blood clot in her brain.

On another note, I think that Peter may absorb Ted's ability intentionally in order to gain some edge over Sylar.  So far, all of Peter's offensive abilities have come from Sylar, most of the other abilities that he has which Sylar doesn't are not going to give him much of an edge in a fight, though they would be useful against him.  I think Peter will reason that by absorbing Ted's abilities and learning to control them will enable him to annihilate Sylar.

Less then 24 hours to find out what happens...

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Actually, it seems we already know that not to be true.

First of all, Hiro's time freeze is definitely an offensive power or can be.  It can even be used to reverse time on certain objects, doing things like causing guns to explode because their bullets went backward.  Peter hasn't figured that out yet, but Hiro's done it once.

Secondly, according to Peter's dream, he absorbs Ted's power accidently when he's in the area.  Peter also is on a quest NOT to explode.  He already knows whose power will cause it, so I doubt he'd purposely go anyway near the guy.

[Conduit]

Secondly, according to Peter's dream, he absorbs Ted's power accidently when he's in the area.  Peter also is on a quest NOT to explode.  He already knows whose power will cause it, so I doubt he'd purposely go anyway near the guy.

He does?  I don't recall Peter ever meeting or even hearing about Ted.  I suppose he might remember how the power worked from his dream, but he won't be able to indentify it unless Ted demonstrates it for him.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Yes, he did.  In his dream, he saw Ted and then exploded and commented that it was Ted had too much power for him to control.

This was a later glimpse of the dream, I believe.

[Conduit]

No no no.  In no version of the dream did he ever see Ted.  Trust me.  You can watch Fallout and Godsend over again and see for yourself (better make it quick though, because they're probably going to be taken off the site tomorrow).

In the version of the dream in Godsend, Peter did run up to Nathan and say that he took "his" power and that he couldn't control it, but there's no indication that Peter has any idea who "he" is.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

He did indeed see Ted in one of his dream, I'm positive.  I think it's when he started to go berserk again and Claude knocked him out.  I don't think it was in either episode you mentioned.

[Conduit]

He didn't see Ted in that episode either.  I just watched that part again to be sure.  All Peter saw that time was a quick flash of himself exploding.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Well, I know I saw it somewhere.  It was only for a split second, so it's no wonder a lot of folks missed it.