NBC's _Heroes_

[BentonGrey]

Ha!  I like things to stay friendly here, so I'm gonna' ignore this.  You know what bothers me most about the final fight?  The fact that they REALLY hyped it, they kept showing this dramatic stand off between Peter and Sylar, like "The moment you've all been waiting for."  I don't know, maybe it's my fault for buying into the hype.  Anyroad, I am definitely looking forward to next season, where hopefully we'll see some more impressive fights.

[captainspud]

That, I'll agree with. The fight definitely sucked after all the hype. I was only responding to the incorrect claims that making it better would have been cheap and easy. It WOULD have been a lot of work to make the fight better, but... if I were them, I'd have at least looked into some extra funding and manpower to make the finale better. I'd think the finale would be WORTH the extra cost to cement the show as a quality production and hook people for next year.

That said, there's a double-edged sword here that Pyro brought up. To make the last fight really good, they should've ditched their normal crew and brought in a crew that's used to doing action movies. TV and film are shot completely differently, and the people (director, cinematographer, cameramen, set designers, etc) who are good at making TV shows would have a lot of difficulty adapting to action conventions. Look at the shot where Niki runs in-- the camera angle is laughably awkward. The crew clearly had no concept of how to shoot that fight. They did a pretty amazing job considering their handicap, but it still kinda sucked. Bringing in an action crew, one who's used to a more dynamic camera, would make the fight "pop" without the actors needing to change much. They'd bring with them better dolleys, bigger cranes, and an ADD-addled director, so we'd get a lot more perceived motion off the same performance.

The downside of this is that although the scene would be awesome, it wouldn't look like the rest of the show. There would be a few seconds of disorientation when the fight started, but more importantly, subsequent fights would bring up the question, "Why doesn't this look as good as the Sylar fight?" They'd need to keep the film crew on hand full-time for fight scenes (as 24 does, hence why the outdoor and action scenes on that show look so good), which would be a huge bump to costs. Again, these costs might be justified and they might actually be planning this, but it's something to keep in mind regardless. Good action scenes are VERY hard to shoot, and we can't hold it against them if it's not in their budget to shoot them Die Hard-style, as awesome as that would be. :)

[Figure Fan]

I think I might be the only one who didn't care when this show started, caught up on the missed episodes, watched the season finale, and ended up not liking the show very much at all.

Meh'  <_<

What's not to like?  Personally, I think it's a great show, and I'm waiting for season 2 to come out in the fall.

I know A LOT of people like this show, but for me it reminds me of what I dislike in recent superhero films. Hayden Panettiere has done some solid acting throughout the season, probably the best out of the cast. I really liked her character. I guess I just don't like the show. I don't like any of the characters (besides Panettiere) and the story never thrilled me.

The next season will probably be better, so maybe I'll get into it more then.

[Mr. Hamrick]

I find myself coming to Spud's defense on this to an extent (which bothers me). 

As someone who is doing production work, if you are going for the quality that the show has generally exhibited then the cost to get the additional crew not to mention other costs would add a lot more cost wise than even Spud was alluding to.  In addition to the wire crew, the rig crew and the people to train the actors in the usage of that equipment, you have the additional lighters, gaffers, stunt crew, and special effect techs on set that would be needed.   Each of those crew members cost a good $700 - $1,500 PER DAY.  That would probably be about twenty people or so (and that's probably an underestimate). 

This is not even figuring in the insurance, the additional wardrobe and props and the POST PRODUCTION special effects people (a separate department entirely from the sound design people, the audio editing people and the video editing people).  That post work could run you another $5,000 easily.

You're talking possibly an additional two days of shooting probably if not three.  That means you're talking an additional easy $65,000 plus just to do that "cheap and easy fight sequence" that you're claiming you could do for $500, Tomato.  People wonder how film budgets get so expensive, well now you know.  Granted, I believe the rates are cheaper for TV production and the amount of crew generally less.  Also, the rates I am referring to in my estimate are somewhat flexible and based on non-contractual work.    Though to your defense, $500 is probably what the writers would've gotten for the last ten pages of the script of the show. That's $500 EACH writer as one page of script usually goes for around a minimum of $50 a page freelance.

However, Spud, a lot more could've been done than was done even without the 3-D graphics and even without the "professional action film crew".  You're a bit off when you put all the blame on the camera person.  The camera person is largely at the mercy of the director.  Though, I'm of the opinion that a good director works on shots with his Director of Photography, many are not.  A huge factor also is the editing.  And I think the awkwardness of that shot you're talking about with Nikki is as much an editing issue as it was a shot issue.  The editor can only work with what shots he or she is given but is also not always going to choose the best shot vs. the shot the director wants . . . or in some cases the producer wants.  This is why you get something labelled "The Director's Cut" as oppose to the original cut.

And as Pyro said, even that fight probably wouldn't be enough for some people.  Now, I am not saying that I liked the ending completely.  Given though that the ending was changed about two-thirds through the season, I won't say that I am surprised at the ending either. 

[Talavar]

I think I might be the only one who didn't care when this show started, caught up on the missed episodes, watched the season finale, and ended up not liking the show very much at all.

Meh'  <_<

What's not to like?  Personally, I think it's a great show, and I'm waiting for season 2 to come out in the fall.

Hey, if somebody doesn't like a show, they don't have to like a show.  I quite enjoy Heroes myself, but it's not perfect by any means.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I think some of you folks are misunderstanding what the rest of us are saying.  We are NOT asking for a special effect-laden fight, or even a fight like most people think.  The first Peter vs Sylar, I liked, for instance, and I also liked Jessica vs DL.  They didn't need better special effects for that scene, or better coreography, just a better thought out plan.  Peter could actually do something and things could make more sense.  It wouldn't even have to be drastically different.  Have Peter free himself with his TK, let him turn invisible, maybe Sylar freezes the ground, so he slips.  It wouldn't have to be much, nor would it have to be what you guys are thinking in terms of special effects, or coreographed fights.  I'd rather have a tactical use and counteruse of powers.  Heroes isn't an action series and shouldn't become one, but a powers vs powers duel should at least look like one.

[captainspud]

You're a bit off when you put all the blame on the camera person.

Well... camera people. Lower case. The set of people whose job it is to plan, place, and move the cameras. They do a wonderful job during dialogue scenes, but they don't really know what they're doing during the action scenes that last more than ten seconds.

[BentonGrey]

I think some of you folks are misunderstanding what the rest of us are saying.  We are NOT asking for a special effect-laden fight, or even a fight like most people think.  The first Peter vs Sylar, I liked, for instance, and I also liked Jessica vs DL.  They didn't need better special effects for that scene, or better coreography, just a better thought out plan.  Peter could actually do something and things could make more sense.  It wouldn't even have to be drastically different.  Have Peter free himself with his TK, let him turn invisible, maybe Sylar freezes the ground, so he slips.  It wouldn't have to be much, nor would it have to be what you guys are thinking in terms of special effects, or coreographed fights.  I'd rather have a tactical use and counteruse of powers.  Heroes isn't an action series and shouldn't become one, but a powers vs powers duel should at least look like one.

Exactly Cat, and good idea with the freezing the ground bit, that would have been cool.  Mostly, I just wanted to see Peter do SOMETHING during that fight.

[Mr. Hamrick]

You're a bit off when you put all the blame on the camera person.

Well... camera people. Lower case. The set of people whose job it is to plan, place, and move the cameras. They do a wonderful job during dialogue scenes, but they don't really know what they're doing during the action scenes that last more than ten seconds.

person (Director of Photography) or people working under him aside, still doesn't change the job done by the editors in post production.

I'm not disagreeing with you as much as pointing out that its both parties who should bear the brunt of it.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

And a blog from one of the directors indicates that it is the director in this show at least, who does most of that.  The camera folks just do what he tells them to.

[Sevenforce]

*derails the current topic* Hey, idea: Why didn't more people notice the HUGE NUCLEAR EXPLOSION above their heads? I mean, I don't expect to see the questions ("What was that?" "Was that a bomb?" "Whats going on?") until the next season, and whether or not we find out if the heroes have been 'rumbled', but at least some kind of reaction from the city at large, at the very least a few sirens.

Speaking of the authorities...just how in their world is Nathan flying without being shot down? Does he carry an IFF disk on him at all times or something? O_o

[Conduit]

Speaking of the authorities...just how in their world is Nathan flying without being shot down? Does he carry an IFF disk on him at all times or something? O_o

Would it even be possible to pick him up on radar?  Radar generally notices big metal things, not individual humans.  Besides, he hasn't flown that much.  One time he was over the Las Vegas Desert, and the other time he flew quickly through NYC.  No one was around for miles in the former case, and in the latter he was in the middle a city, surrounded by tall buildings.  His only concern would be some tourist catching him on a camcorder (which is a big concern, though he was flying really fast).

[captainspud]

Yeah, he's:

1) Far too small
2) Made of the wrong materials
3) Too irregularly shaped
4) Usually too low to the ground

to show up on radar. Any of those alone would make him hard to see, together he won't even show up.

[Conduit]

I just remembered a real life parallel.  In HALO jumps, the idea is to parachute out of a plane above the radar and open the parachute below the radar so as to avoid detection.  Meaning that the parachuter, while he doesn't have his parachute open, is totally invisible to radar.  So yes, we can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that a human flying through the air would not be picked up on radar.

[stumpy]

Yep. Conventional radar would not be an issue for Nathan. Someone could design something to do that (it's not beyond the concept of what radar can do), but the signal processing for picking up a fast, man-sized object outside a lab environment would be a nightmare. And, frankly, if he were picked up, it's not like anyone could do anything about it. If he is as fast and maneuverable as he looks and he keeps some distance, forget about taking him out with most weaponry that wouldn't do lots of collateral damage when it missed.

[bredon7777]

*derails the current topic* Hey, idea: Why didn't more people notice the HUGE NUCLEAR EXPLOSION above their heads? I mean, I don't expect to see the questions ("What was that?" "Was that a bomb?" "Whats going on?") until the next season, and whether or not we find out if the heroes have been 'rumbled', but at least some kind of reaction from the city at large, at the very least a few sirens.

Speaking of the authorities...just how in their world is Nathan flying without being shot down? Does he carry an IFF disk on him at all times or something? O_o

Not to mention the EMP..shouldn't every light in the city have gone out?

[captainspud]

Ehh, they can probably cite the previous EMP precedent as evidence that Ted's powers don't automatically link "normal" nuke blasts and EMP. It's stupid, but they can say it and by the rules they've set up, it's plausible.

*shrugs*

[Ajax]

I agree with Spud on this. Cost is always an issue whether you are in the movies or TV. Not to mention you are nearing the end of the series, which if they didn't plan correctly might be near the end of their budget. (I could be wrong but last I heard they start with a budget and that is what they have to work with for the entire season.)

What could Peter have done? He isn't going to turn invisble since that didn't quite work the first time. The only reason for him to turn invisible is to run away and he was there to try and save the city not run away. Plus if he ran while invisible Sylar would have heard him with his super hearing. Sylar was by far more powerful than Peter was at the time of the fight, he was more familiar with his powers. [spoiler]The fact that Nathan had to come along and fly Peter away is proof enough that even after his "training" he was no where near mastering what abilities he had. [/spoiler]

Heroes succeeded to do a few things these new post-lost dramas have failed at, which is having a beginning middle and end. Not only this but it tied up alot of plot points neatly, while leaving loose ends for the next season. It isn't trying to be a tangled web so convulted that not even the writers know what's going on (LOST).

[Night Dragon]

 Me and one of my buddies were talking about the ending, and we came up with an idea on what happened to Sylar.

Sylar's body was drug away by ...

[spoiler]
Sylar.

This is all just a theory, and I've missed several episodes, so I might be very far off on it, but here goes.

We never got to see how the fight between Peter and Sylar went in 'Five Years Gone', but say Sylar won. I'm not sure if he would get all the powers Peter had gained, or just Peter's original 'absorbing' power. (Also we came up woth a theory on Peter's scar too, more on that later )

Say Sylar gains all of Peter's acquired powers, this means he has Hiro's ability to travel through time/space now, among others. So he could have traveled back into the past, in an attempt to stop present-day Hiro's mission.

Or, say Sylar only gains Peter's default power and nothing more, prehaps Future Hiro wasn't dead, but dying instead. (Or Future Hiro hadn't experienced brain death yet, since the brain does stay active for some time after the body dies. ) And yadda, yadda, same thing as above.

This would be a possible way to have Sylar as part of the show still without him actually surviving. Of course, as I said, I haven't kept up fully on the show and somehow this may break the 'rules' set up by the writers.

And as for Peter's scar, could it have been possible that sometime between the possible future and the present he was a prisoner of some sorts. And the Haitian was used to nullify Peter's powers. ( Would this mean the Haitian is one of the only people Peter can't mimic their powers?) Peter gets slashed/tortured, and with no powers at the time, the wound heals normally, and he gets the scar. And when he escapes, or is rescued, his powers come back. ( This assumes that his healing kinda assumes a 'default' state of sorts.) Again, having not got to keep up, this theory might go against whatever 'rules' have been established by the show.

[/spoiler]

[thanoson]

That fight would have been a lot quicker had the haitian been there.

[stumpy]

[spoiler]I am probably missing a nuance here somewhere, but did the future Peter we saw this last time even have a healing ability? I ask because couldn't it be that the reason future Peter had a scar just because he had never met Claire and never got a healing ability? Maybe future Claire is alive because she survived in some other way.[/spoiler]

[Mr. Hamrick]

[spoiler]I am probably missing a nuance here somewhere, but did the future Peter we saw this last time even have a healing ability? I ask because couldn't it be that the reason future Peter had a scar just because he had never met Claire and never got a healing ability? Maybe future Claire is alive because she survived in some other way.[/spoiler]

[spoiler]It is implied in the episode that the future Hiro was not even aware that "the cheerleader" had been saved.[/spoiler]

[Conduit]

[spoiler]

I am probably missing a nuance here somewhere, but did the future Peter we saw this last time even have a healing ability? I ask because couldn't it be that the reason future Peter had a scar just because he had never met Claire and never got a healing ability? Maybe future Claire is alive because she survived in some other way.

It goes like this:

Timeline A is the timeline that Future Hiro is from.  In this timeline, Sylar killed Claire and got her power.  Hiro tried to stab Sylar before the explosion, but Sylar regenerated and survived.  Either Peter or Sylar proceeded to explode (Future Hiro thinks it was Sylar but there's no telling if he actually saw it).  The world turns into a very bad place and Future Hiro tries to find a way to stop it.  He ends up going back and giving the message to Peter.

This leads to Timeline B, which we see in Five Years Gone.  Claire is alive, but since Hiro accidentally teleported five years into the future, he never had a chance to stab Sylar and the explosion still happened.  The world turned into a bad place basically the same as in Timeline A.  Future Hiro comes to this timeline, with only memories of Timeline A.  Future Hiro manages to rescue Hiro and get him to go back to the present.

There he stabs Sylar and takes him out of the action long enough for Nathan to swoop in and keep the explosion from doing any damage.  This will presumably lead to Timeline C, which the series will follow.

So to make a long story short, yes, Peter had regeneration in Five Years Gone.
[/spoiler]

[Ajax]

[spoiler]I think Sylar saved himself and just dragged himself away. Though I think that puddle of blood is a message he left after seeing the future. Obviously the guy Molly is afraid of looking at is going to be the new big bad guy. Hiro will travel through the past, at the very least he will fight a T-Rex. Peter will return sometime later and so will Sylar (after he recovers), which will give them a chance to "correct" the "mistakes" they made in the second Peter v Sylar fight. Mohindar (sp?) and Molly will travel together trying to locate other powered individuals to help them. Something is going to happen with Parkmans child, possibly a powered person. The girl who can control what people see will pretend to be Nathan and Sylar will gun for her.[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I suspect you're way off, Ajax, especially:

[spoiler]

Hiro will travel through the past, at the very least he will fight a T-Rex.

Nope.  That picture was fulfilled when Hiro played with the T-Rex model in the museum.  This was confirmed when several writers and actors stated that they had already filmed that scene fulfilled that picture as of a couple of months ago, just before that episode came out.  You may not like that, but that's how it is.
[/spoiler]

[Ajax]

I suspect you're way off, Ajax, especially:

[spoiler]

Hiro will travel through the past, at the very least he will fight a T-Rex.

Nope.  That picture was fulfilled when Hiro played with the T-Rex model in the museum.  This was confirmed when several writers and actors stated that they had already filmed that scene fulfilled that picture as of a couple of months ago, just before that episode came out.  You may not like that, but that's how it is.
[/spoiler]

I see. Didn't realize this but it was just a prediction so meh. Though I wonder if they will try and say Takezo Kensei is Hiro's ancestor. 

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I suspect that to be true.  Especially as he appeared to be played by George Takie.(sp?)  At least, that's what it looked like.

EDIT:  This just in:  Tim Kring has announced that he's changed his mind about Heroes having a changing cast from season to season.  All surviving cast members will be returning.

Also someone asked Kring why Peter could fly away.  He didn't have a real answer, just saying that he wanted Nathan to rescue him.  This disappoints me.  A good story writer allows the story to drive itself, even in directions he never intended.  Forcing the story to go a certain way, even when it no longer fits, is just not good.

[stumpy]

[spoiler]

This leads to Timeline B, which we see in Five Years Gone.  Claire is alive, but since Hiro accidentally teleported five years into the future, he never had a chance to stab Sylar and the explosion still happened.  The world turned into a bad place basically the same as in Timeline A.  Future Hiro comes to this timeline, with only memories of Timeline A.  Future Hiro manages to rescue Hiro and get him to go back to the present.

[...]

So to make a long story short, yes, Peter had regeneration in Five Years Gone.

What? Why? Sorry, I am sure you are right, it's just that think I understand Five Years Gone (I agree with what you wrote) but I don't see how that leads to the conclusion that Peter had regeneration there. Was Peter shown to regenerate in FYG? If he wasn't, how do we know he had the power there? That's why I suggested the possibility that maybe Peter had never actually met Claire in that timeline and she escaped Sylar via other means. That way, there is no need to wonder why Peter had the scar.

Cat, I totally agree. That was a very weak reason to have Nathan act as he did. I understand the need to get certain plot points into the story, but it should still seem natural.
[/spoiler]

[Conduit]

[spoiler]

This leads to Timeline B, which we see in Five Years Gone.  Claire is alive, but since Hiro accidentally teleported five years into the future, he never had a chance to stab Sylar and the explosion still happened.  The world turned into a bad place basically the same as in Timeline A.  Future Hiro comes to this timeline, with only memories of Timeline A.  Future Hiro manages to rescue Hiro and get him to go back to the present.

[...]

So to make a long story short, yes, Peter had regeneration in Five Years Gone.

What? Why? Sorry, I am sure you are right, it's just that think I understand Five Years Gone (I agree with what you wrote) but I don't see how that leads to the conclusion that Peter had regeneration there. Was Peter shown to regenerate in FYG? If he wasn't, how do we know he had the power there? That's why I suggested the possibility that maybe Peter had never actually met Claire in that timeline and she escaped Sylar via other means. That way, there is no need to wonder why Peter had the scar.

We know that he has regeneration in Five Years Gone because the timeline seen in that episode (Timeline B) is a continuation of the timeline that we been following when Hiro jumped into the future.  Thus everything that happened before episode 20 happened in Timeline B, including Peter rescuing Claire and getting her power.
[/spoiler]

Cat, in a much more recent article (click here), the writers said that Peter couldn't fly off because he can only access one power at a time.  That's two mysteries solved.  They also say that when Candice was knocked out, she still might have maintained an illusion (meaning that her "I'm huge too" comment from Landslide might still be true).

I suspect that to be true.  Especially as he appeared to be played by George Takie.(sp?)  At least, that's what it looked like.

In this thread, a guy says he met Masi Oka when he visited Brown University and was told that Kensei was not played by George Takei.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

That may be what the writers say, but it's not what Kring said, and he sort of trumps them.

Yeah, that's one explanation, and one that works pretty well, but it's not what the series creator said.