NBC's _Heroes_

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Sorry, I should have been more clear, but I wasn't trying to prove that Hiro could change his own timeline with these four timelines.  I was merely presenting the four timelines in the show.  You were arguing for naught.  I was not arguning against you at all.  I had intended to lay that out for a while, but found it convenient to throw it in there.  I just find the multiple timelines interesting, that's all, and no one's laid them all at before.

Had nothing to do with your argument.

Sorry, unless and until we hear that Future Hiro learned English somewhere else, these still fall into Hiros own personal timeline being covered under rule #1.  Hiro's timeline takes place out of chronological order, true - but nothing in it has been changed.

Quote from: catwhowalkedbyhimself
3.  Timeline created by Hiro when he first jumps into the future.  In this timeline, Hiro disappears for all five weeks, Ando never leaves Japan, and he disappears in the nuclear explosion.

That's changing the future, not the past.  There is still no evidence that Hiro can change his own past.

Quote from: catwhowalkedbyhimself
4.  Similar to #2, except Hiro is present.  This is the same timeline that future Hiro comes from and that Hiro and Ando just time jumped to.  It's yet unknown if it branches off from the current timeline, or if events diverge even in the present.  We'll probably find out come episode 20.

Again, that deals with future events, which we all agree Hiro can change.  There is some evidence that Hiro can change past events that are not part of his own personal timelime, such as Claire's presumed death at the hands of Sylar (Again, if Hiro couldn't change past events he would not have bothered going back in time to warn Peter)

From where I sit, there is still no real evidence that Hiro can change his own personal timeline.

[stumpy]

Any of the theories of time travel (which are all ultimately flawed) which stipulate things like "someone can time travel but not change his own time-line" or "he can time travel but not change world history", etc. are all based on arbitrary distinctions and nebulous "gray area" definitions about what constitutes various events. The worst of them essentially assume some sort of very fickle "hand of fate" or "time referee" that allows certain things to happen and others not to.

E.g., how can anyone possibly argue that Hiro hasn't changed his own time-line? He does it every time he time travels. The six month jump into the past to meet Charlie is a perfect example. At that point, he existed with Charlie and also back in Tokyo. How can anyone claim his time-line is unchanged when now it includes him being in two places at once? Yeesh. It wasn't the same as it was before, therefore it was changed. I suppose one could try and drag "big changes" vs. "little changes" into it, but that's just an exercise in arbitrary line-drawing and it still never explains why the universe would care one way or the other.

Meanwhile, who decides what constitutes a world event? Being somewhere is an event in the world. That's all it takes. What possible kind of physics cares whether human historians consider something "important" and only allows other things to happen? Same thing with regard to how does the universe decide where one person's time-line ends and another's begins? It's a purely arbitrary distinction and that's why there is no sense to it.

I am not claiming to have a perfect theory or even a good one. I haven't read a single time travel theory that doesn't fall flat on its face if you think about it for thirty seconds. When I watch these things, I try to just let it go and assume whatever happens could have happened somehow. But, it would annoy me if the writers took something that's as much of a rat's nest as time travel and further garbled it with silly rules about personal time-lines and such nonsense. Pfeh!

[captainspud]

Bingo.

"Personal timeline" = arbitrary, pulled-out-of-rectum nonsense.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Actually, #3, the mutiple timeline theory is actually seriously advocated by many quantum physicists.  If there really are infinite universes/timelines, then there should be universes that are identical to our own, but time has not advanced as far, or has advanced farther.  Therefore, you could travel to those universes, leaving your original one intact.

I don't personally buy it, but it does actually make some sense.

[Uncle Yuan]

I'm with the "they've already garbled so much basic science I don't expect them to handle time travel consistently" camp.  It starts with their goobledegook about the Human Genome Project and goes south from there.  Curare?  A muscular poison, not neuro.  (And let's not even get into the thermodynamics of any of these powers!!)

And of course, any of the arguments about Hiro's powers can be applied in essentially whole cloth to Isaak.

[stumpy]

Actually, #3, the mutiple timeline theory is actually seriously advocated by many quantum physicists.  If there really are infinite universes/timelines, then there should be universes that are identical to our own, but time has not advanced as far, or has advanced farther.  Therefore, you could travel to those universes, leaving your original one intact.

As I said before, the bifurcation theory (of which multiple/infinite time-lines are variations) is the only one close to being workable. FWIW, most of the physical support for travel into the past derives mainly from anomalies in certain solutions to the equations of general relativity, not quantum physics (some physicists would say that an expected contribution of quantum gravity would be to eliminate these odd solutions to the field equations). And those anomalous solutions (e.g. the Godel Metric) are viewed skeptically, since they often predict properties that we don't see in our universe, or predict that we won't see things that we do see, like Hubble Expansion.

But even physics interpretations that might allow for multiply-connected space-time topology still throw to the wind any sensible notion of causality. That is, from the observer's perspective, a causal universe means that knowing the state of things at time t should give you a good idea of knowing what will happen at the next instant t+dt. But time travel screws with that. Forget about me killing my grandfather, let's say I ship an ordinary brick one second into the past. From the universe's perspective, that brick suddenly popped into existence with no explanation, violating a host of physical laws that have never, ever been observed to fail in the macroscopic world, the least of which is conservation of matter/energy.

Anyway, as I said, I can let all that go and just assume that some variant on bifurcated time is at play here and Hiro, Peter, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, and whoever else can travel into the past (or travel into the future and then back to the present, same diff). That horse is out of the barn and that's fine. My problem is with weird, arbitrary rules about what a time traveler can or cannot do that have nothing to do with science. They are just plot crutches. In other words, there is speculation that Hiro cannot change events in "his" time-line. So, physics aside, I'd love to hear a good explanation of 1) where the definition of Hiro's time-line ends and someone else's starts and 2) what prevents Hiro from changing events in that time line? And, I don't mean some nebulous hocus pocus like "karma" or or "balance" or whatever that doesn't actually explain anything. I mean what actually happens that stops him? What's the mechanism?

BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

[Uncle Yuan]

Oh yeah, let's add Charlie's brain "clot" to the list of BS science on the show.

Actually, let's not.  I've been having a lot of fun watching the show, and too much more of this second guessing runs the potential of really ruining things for me.

[Protomorph]

All it really means is this:

If Hiro had saved Charlie, (i.e. she wasn't present at the time so she would not have been killed) Hiro would not know she was killed, and thus would have no reason to go into the past to meet her and save her. Thus: It would not happen, and she would die as she was always meant to. Of course, this may also hold true for the explosion. As for the explosion, it being a future incident that hasn't happened yet, it can be prevented without altering his reasons for his own actions (his personal timeline). He is time jumping through the events, not because of them.

For that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...[spoiler] Peter going critical mass and nobody could get close enough to stop him, except Claire, as she did for Ted.[/spoiler]

and speaking of the explosion:
Ted has been locked up by Primatech. The actor playing him has said that the explosion will be caused by his powers, and not necessarilly by him. There are only 2 people who it could be if not Ted; Peter and Sylar. So, at some point, Ted will probably escape, likely facillitaed by the Hacker girl and/or Matt.

I still want to see what happens when Nikki meets Peter. Maybe Peter will get an alter ego and becomes...Jessica! Would that not be a twist? :D

As for Hiro, I read on his blog...[spoiler]apparently, his blog follows his temporal perspective, and has been ended in respect for the people who lost their lives after the tragic events of Nov 8. And his company has disavowed any association with Hiro! Is he being blamed for the accident?[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

For that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...

[spoiler]Official sources have stated that future Hiro comes form the future timeline that Hiro and Ando just jumped into, and that Claire is alive and well in that timeline, and reunited with HRG.[/spoiler]

For that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...

[spoiler]Again, official sources have confirmed that Peter WILL be getting his scar, but not from the current battle with Sylar.[/spoiler]

[Conduit]

[spoiler]

For that matter, We don't even know that Peter is even going to contract the scar that Future Hiro #1 mentioned. THAT Hiro could have been from a timeline where Sylar killed Claire, and he saw that events spiralled from there. A Theory...

Official sources have stated that future Hiro comes form the future timeline that Hiro and Ando just jumped into, and that Claire is alive and well in that timeline, and reunited with HRG.

Actually, official sources have stated that a scene from the promo of a brunette Claire talking to HRG is from episode 20, which is set in the future that future Hiro came from.  It might be Candace, seeing as how future Hiro certainly made it seem like Claire had died in his timeline ("She must live.  It's the only way to prevent it").[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Possible, but not necessarily true. Still might be true.  We'll see in episode 20, I guess.

[Pyroclasm]

Have they ever expressly shown Peter to use a super's power whom he has met, but is currently dead?  I know it has been theorized that he used Eden's power, but I'm not entirely convinced he did.  I had a theory that Peter, being almost the opposite of Sylar may actually need the super to be alive (unlike Sylar who seems to need them dead).  This is why I figure the way for him to get the scar would be if Claire was dead at the time he is injured.  It wouldn't even be necessary for her to be permanently dead, just prior to coming back dead.
Well, it's just a theory.  Put away the torches and pitchforks. ;)

[captainspud]

Interesting theory, but so far there's zilch to support it.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Plus, he's using powers that Sylar got from people that he killed.  That doesn't necessarily contradict your theory, but there's nothing at all to suggest that.

[Uncle Yuan]

Who is HRG?  :huh:

[Conduit]

HRG stands for Horn Rimmed Glasses, AKA Mr. Bennet.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Even the actor who player him calls that character HRG, as do everyone else in an official capacity with the show and most fans.

[bredon7777]

Ok, first let me say that I agree that the writers really needed to sit down and work out exactly what the rules were for Hiro (and Peter) before the season began. And its very clear that they didn't.

Time travel can work well if done right - Deja vu is an excellent example of that. A so-so movie but the time travel part was well thoguht out and completley flawless- not a single hole could I find and believe me, I went looking.


That said, back to the fun:

But even physics interpretations that might allow for multiply-connected space-time topology still throw to the wind any sensible notion of causality. That is, from the observer's perspective, a causal universe means that knowing the state of things at time t should give you a good idea of knowing what will happen at the next instant t+dt. But time travel screws with that. Forget about me killing my grandfather, let's say I ship an ordinary brick one second into the past. From the universe's perspective, that brick suddenly popped into existence with no explanation, violating a host of physical laws that have never, ever been observed to fail in the macroscopic world, the least of which is conservation of matter/energy.

Which is why you can't do that - there's no way to send a brick into the past.  What you'd wind up doing is bouncing yourself into a universe where there was a good reason for the brick to be there.  It'd be your perspective that had changed, not the universes.

Anyway, as I said, I can let all that go and just assume that some variant on bifurcated time is at play here and Hiro, Peter, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, and whoever else can travel into the past (or travel into the future and then back to the present, same diff). That horse is out of the barn and that's fine. My problem is with weird, arbitrary rules about what a time traveler can or cannot do that have nothing to do with science. They are just plot crutches. In other words, there is speculation that Hiro cannot change events in "his" time-line. So, physics aside, I'd love to hear a good explanation of 1) where the definition of Hiro's time-line ends and someone else's starts and 2) what prevents Hiro from changing events in that time line? And, I don't mean some nebulous hocus pocus like "karma" or or "balance" or whatever that doesn't actually explain anything. I mean what actually happens that stops him? What's the mechanism?

1) In general, I'd say it's anything he had direct experience (as opposed to knowledge) of.  Think of time as a bunch of individual currents (individual time lines) in a river (time itself). Hiro can use his current to alter the other currents, but can not change his current nor alter the ground his current has already covered.

2) Well, in Dr. Who  a bunch of Dragon looking things start eating time and the Universe comes to an end. Here? Who knows- could be nature, could be psychological.  All we know is that the one time he tried - his powers threw him back into the present, halfway around the world.

BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

Actually, I would argue very strongly that while Hiro has changed the past, he has not changed his past because while the events of Hiros life do not take place in chronological order, they still take place in a linear fashion.  His jump into the past changed Charlie's past, but not his own- hes still going forward one second at a time, even if the seconds are not in chronlogical order. Hence the phone call to himself (which- was that mentioned way back in one of the earlier episodes. I'd swear I remember Hiro saying to Ando "Someone called looking for you, but I answered the phone and they hung up way back in an earlier episode)

I'd argue that there's only one way to "change" your own past- project your conciousness back through time; a literal "Well now I know now what I knew then" sort of moment. And its already been established that Hiro's powers don't work that way.

[captainspud]

But again, that all assumes an arbitrary Time Nanny who decides what does and doesn't constitute "your timeline". He went back in time six months, at which time he was in Japan as well. For all we know, air he breathed out in Texas circled the world and was then breathed in by Japan Hiro, changing those few air molecules.

The whole world is one big game of billiards. Even if you knock the 7-ball in at the south end without hitting a single other ball, your impact might have shifted the table by a molecule or two, subtly changing the outcome of your next shot on the 8 at the north end. You can't argue that the 8-ball's timeframe didn't include the 7 because they're so far apart, because who's to say that being at opposite ends of the table is enough for them to have ZERO effect on each other?

"Personal timeline" is a contrivance. It makes no sense, as it requires an intelligent manipulator to work. I'll be tremendously disappointed if they do something along those lines.

[stumpy]

Time travel can work well if done right - Deja vu is an excellent example of that. A so-so movie but the time travel part was well thoguht out and completley flawless- not a single hole could I find and believe me, I went looking.

I haven't seen Deja vu yet, though I am planning to when it's out on DVD.

But even physics interpretations that might allow for multiply-connected space-time topology still throw to the wind any sensible notion of causality. That is, from the observer's perspective, a causal universe means that knowing the state of things at time t should give you a good idea of knowing what will happen at the next instant t+dt. But time travel screws with that. Forget about me killing my grandfather, let's say I ship an ordinary brick one second into the past. From the universe's perspective, that brick suddenly popped into existence with no explanation, violating a host of physical laws that have never, ever been observed to fail in the macroscopic world, the least of which is conservation of matter/energy.

Which is why you can't do that - there's no way to send a brick into the past.  What you'd wind up doing is bouncing yourself into a universe where there was a good reason for the brick to be there.  It'd be your perspective that had changed, not the universes.

DC used to have sort of an interesting take on time travel with Superman, from what I read in the reprints of classic 1950s stories. (I am basing this off a couple "best Superman stories" reprints, so this was probably very inconsistent. I am certainly not claiming they did things this way all the time...) He would turn into a "ghost" when he traveled into the past, able to observe but unable to affect events. It was a pretty good explanation and avoided some of the physics trouble I mentioned earlier. When I was a kid, I thought they had really found something that was causally sound. Now, of course, I understand that the ghost approach is just as inexplicable as the others because information is real "stuff" too and going into the past and gathering data from there is just as much a problem as grabbing a brick or a person or whatever. It's acausal and violates any number of basic physics laws, like the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Anyway, as I said, I can let all that go and just assume that some variant on bifurcated time is at play here and Hiro, Peter, the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man, and whoever else can travel into the past (or travel into the future and then back to the present, same diff). That horse is out of the barn and that's fine. My problem is with weird, arbitrary rules about what a time traveler can or cannot do that have nothing to do with science. They are just plot crutches. In other words, there is speculation that Hiro cannot change events in "his" time-line. So, physics aside, I'd love to hear a good explanation of 1) where the definition of Hiro's time-line ends and someone else's starts and 2) what prevents Hiro from changing events in that time line? And, I don't mean some nebulous hocus pocus like "karma" or or "balance" or whatever that doesn't actually explain anything. I mean what actually happens that stops him? What's the mechanism?

1) In general, I'd say it's anything he had direct experience (as opposed to knowledge) of.  Think of time as a bunch of individual currents (individual time lines) in a river (time itself). Hiro can use his current to alter the other currents, but can not change his current nor alter the ground his current has already covered.

But now we're back to the question: How could there be any real separation from his time-line and anyone else's? Ultimately, there is none because everyone's time-line is connected and trying to separate them involves making purely subjective decisions about whether an action had a "big" effect or some tiny effect that a person may not even notice. You live in the whole universe, not just the parts of it you think are important at a given point; it's all part of your time-line. My point is, rules based on this end up being based on when a person might subjectively consider something an important change and not when a change has actually occurred. It would be an entirely capricious universe (or some "time referee") that prevents certain things from happening but allows others based merely on meeting a subjective standard of "importance".

2) Well, in Dr. Who  a bunch of Dragon looking things start eating time and the Universe comes to an end. Here? Who knows- could be nature, could be psychological.  All we know is that the one time he tried - his powers threw him back into the present, halfway around the world.

He had already changed the past at that point, both the real history of the universe and whatever notion of his personal past one might hold.

BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

Actually, I would argue very strongly that while Hiro has changed the past, he has not changed his past because while the events of Hiros life do not take place in chronological order, they still take place in a linear fashion.  His jump into the past changed Charlie's past, but not his own- hes still going forward one second at a time, even if the seconds are not in chronlogical order. Hence the phone call to himself (which- was that mentioned way back in one of the earlier episodes. I'd swear I remember Hiro saying to Ando "Someone called looking for you, but I answered the phone and they hung up way back in an earlier episode)

I'd argue that there's only one way to "change" your own past- project your conciousness back through time; a literal "Well now I know now what I knew then" sort of moment. And its already been established that Hiro's powers don't work that way.

The phone call and the birthday picture are Hiro's past being different due to his time travel. He changed his past. I have a hard time seeing how any other interpretation isn't just hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.


BTW, I want to emphasize again that we have no idea that any rules like that are at work on the show. All we have is Hiro's interpretation, which is mixed in with his concept of the heroic ideal and X-Men #143. If this all boils down to Hiro not being able to do certain things because of his own psychological limitations stopping him, then I am fine with it. In that case, effectively, he chooses to limit himself and there is no silly "law of time travel" at play.

[bredon7777]

DC used to have sort of an interesting take on time travel with Superman, from what I read in the reprints of classic 1950s stories. (I am basing this off a couple "best Superman stories" reprints, so this was probably very inconsistent. I am certainly not claiming they did things this way all the time...) He would turn into a "ghost" when he traveled into the past, able to observe but unable to affect events. It was a pretty good explanation and avoided some of the physics trouble I mentioned earlier. When I was a kid, I thought they had really found something that was causally sound. Now, of course, I understand that the ghost approach is just as inexplicable as the others because information is real "stuff" too and going into the past and gathering data from there is just as much a problem as grabbing a brick or a person or whatever. It's acausal and violates any number of basic physics laws, like the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

Which, again, is why in the "real world" you cant do that.  You can bounce yourself back down a branch of time, but the mere act of doing that will cause you to be bounced back up a different branch.  There was an excellent short story (Whose title and author escape me, sadly) about a scientist who caught his wife cheating and kept trying to go back in time and kill her relatives- in the process so unthethering himself from time that he started bouncing around the various branches at random; but in the original timeline he came from, nothing had changed.

You cant change any timeline in the "real world", though I do believe you can bounce yourself between timelines.  But thats not really relevant as to how the show works.

1) In general, I'd say it's anything he had direct experience (as opposed to knowledge) of.  Think of time as a bunch of individual currents (individual time lines) in a river (time itself). Hiro can use his current to alter the other currents, but can not change his current nor alter the ground his current has already covered.

But now we're back to the question: How could there be any real separation from his time-line and anyone else's? Ultimately, there is none because everyone's time-line is connected and trying to separate them involves making purely subjective decisions about whether an action had a "big" effect or some tiny effect that a person may not even notice. You live in the whole universe, not just the parts of it you think are important at a given point; it's all part of your time-line. My point is, rules based on this end up being based on when a person might subjectively consider something an important change and not when a change has actually occurred. It would be an entirely capricious universe (or some "time referee") that prevents certain things from happening but allows others based merely on meeting a subjective standard of "importance".

See now here we disagree.  Most people live in what is, effecitvley a very small universe and the larger universe consists of all these smaller universes side by side. And no, everyones time line is not connected-
If I spend 10 minutes eating breakfast, and then teleport 10 minutes into the past (and halfway around the world) to save someone in Paris from a car accident, I have interfered with another persons timeline (chnaging the past) but I have not changed my past- for reasons I'll get into below.

2) Well, in Dr. Who  a bunch of Dragon looking things start eating time and the Universe comes to an end. Here? Who knows- could be nature, could be psychological.  All we know is that the one time he tried - his powers threw him back into the present, halfway around the world.

He had already changed the past at that point, both the real history of the universe and whatever notion of his personal past one might hold.

Ok, if you want to put on the lawyer pants, I'll admit that in the Dr. Who universe, one CAN change his own past- but given the horrible things that will result one probably shouldn't.  And technically, the Doctor didn't change the past (presumably because he knew of the horrbile things that would arise as a result), his companion who didn't know better did.

BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

Now you're just being disingenious.  That's the equivelent of saying "I don't know why I crashed my car, I just did"- when you've spent the past 90 minutes in a bar getting hammered.  Sure, getting hammered might not have had anything to do with you crashing your car, but that's unlikely.  Sure, Hiro's powers triggering just when he was about to change his own timeline might not have anything to do with changing his own timeline- but that's unlikely, as well.

BTW, for all our discussions here, this isn't a problem with the show, at least not yet. There is no reason to believe Hiro can't change his past. I don't see how anyone can argue that he hasn't already. All we have is Hiro's experience with Charlie, but she was dieing of something else anyway, so all that meant is that Hiro can't cure brain aneurysms (or whatever she had). Meanwhile, even if Hiro himself believes he can't change his past, so what? He doesn't know.

Actually, I would argue very strongly that while Hiro has changed the past, he has not changed his past because while the events of Hiros life do not take place in chronological order, they still take place in a linear fashion.  His jump into the past changed Charlie's past, but not his own- hes still going forward one second at a time, even if the seconds are not in chronlogical order. Hence the phone call to himself (which- was that mentioned way back in one of the earlier episodes. I'd swear I remember Hiro saying to Ando "Someone called looking for you, but I answered the phone and they hung up way back in an earlier episode)

I'd argue that there's only one way to "change" your own past- project your conciousness back through time; a literal "Well now I know now what I knew then" sort of moment. And its already been established that Hiro's powers don't work that way.

The phone call and the birthday picture are Hiro's past being different due to his time travel. He changed his past. I have a hard time seeing how any other interpretation isn't just hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.

I know it sounds like I'm arguing the definition of "is" here, but I really believe there is a very important differental between changing his past and changing the past.  Let me give you an example:

Minute 1: Hiro's eating breakfast
Minute 2: Hiro's eating breakfast
Minute 3: Hiros eating breakfast
Minute 4: Hiro's eating breakfast
Minute 5: Hiros eating breakfast
Minute 6: Hiro teleports
Minute 7: Hiro freezes time
Minute 8: Hiro shoves someone out of the way of a car
Minute 9: Hiro unfreezes time
Minute 10: Hiro goes "Yatta!"

That's a 10 minute sequence of his past, right?

Well that sequence doesn't change at all if I label it like this:
8:50 - Hiro's eating breakfast
8:51 - Hiro's eating breakfast
8:52 - Hiros eating breakfast
8:53 - Hiro's eating breakfast
8:54 - Hiros eating breakfast
8:55 - Hiro teleports
8:51 - Hiro freezes time
8:51 - Hiro shoves someone out of the way of a car
8:51 - Hiro unfreezes time
8:52 - Hiro goes "Yatta!"

So even though Hiro has clearly changed the past, since the 10 minute sequence remains in the exact same order for him, I once again say that he has not changed his past.  I'd argue, and argue strongly that the only way for Hiro to alter his past would be to alter that 10 minute sequence of events.

BTW, I want to emphasize again that we have no idea that any rules like that are at work on the show. All we have is Hiro's interpretation, which is mixed in with his concept of the heroic ideal and X-Men #143. If this all boils down to Hiro not being able to do certain things because of his own psychological limitations stopping him, then I am fine with it. In that case, effectively, he chooses to limit himself and there is no silly "law of time travel" at play.

Oh, it may be psychological - but I'd still argue that the limitation exists.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

People don't live in separate timelines, though.  Everything effects everything else.  Yes, the man who save someone around the world in the past might not seem to change his own present, he will almost certainly change his, or his descendants future.  And even then, it's entirely possible that he might change his own past as well.  There's no way of tell, because everything's connected.

All you've succeeded in convincing me is that Dr. Who is dumb.  Which is too bad, because I used to be interested in it before you started this argument.  Now it just doesn't seem as appealing.

[bredon7777]

People don't live in separate timelines, though.  Everything effects everything else.  Yes, the man who save someone around the world in the past might not seem to change his own present, he will almost certainly change his, or his descendants future.  And even then, it's entirely possible that he might change his own past as well.  There's no way of tell, because everything's connected.

I disagree. I understand that people like to believe everything is connected so they dont have to think about how small they are in a big universe- but I honestly don't believe it unless you stretch things enormously.  But that's philosophy, and I think I've already dragged this thread off track enough discussing the mechanics of "time travel", no? :D

All you've succeeded in convincing me is that Dr. Who is dumb.  Which is too bad, because I used to be interested in it before you started this argument.  Now it just doesn't seem as appealing.

Oh, don't let me put you off one of the best shows on TV. The "being unable to change your own timeline" is a really small part of the show, promise.

[stumpy]

See now here we disagree.  Most people live in what is, effecitvley a very small universe and the larger universe consists of all these smaller universes side by side. And no, everyones time line is not connected-
If I spend 10 minutes eating breakfast, and then teleport 10 minutes into the past (and halfway around the world) to save someone in Paris from a car accident, I have interfered with another persons timeline (chnaging the past) but I have not changed my past- for reasons I'll get into below.

People live in the whole universe; there is no getting around it. If you try to say that people little in little sub-universes that combine to make the whole universe, that still means they live in the larger universe, regardless of any compartmentalization.

BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

Now you're just being disingenious. 

No. I am being accurate. Time travel may be the most unbeatable power on the show, but Hiro is hardly omniscient or infallible. I am just separating what we actaully saw happen from Hiro's speculation about it. He can conclude that his power works or doesn't work by whatever rules and we have to accept that he might be wrong, especially since he doesn't have any expertise in the field and barely any experience with his power.

Sure, Hiro's powers triggering just when he was about to change his own timeline might not have anything to do with changing his own timeline- but that's unlikely, as well.

Here's where your interpretation is making that seem less likely than it needs to. If you accept that Hiro has already changed his time-line, then it doesn't seem so unlikely that Hiro's power - which has worked erratically for him since day one - experienced a glitch at that point. And it was a point at which he had just discovered that, for reasons completely unrelated to any limitation on his power, he couldn't save Charlie anyway.

[...]
So even though Hiro has clearly changed the past, since the 10 minute sequence remains in the exact same order for him, I once again say that he has not changed his past.  I'd argue, and argue strongly that the only way for Hiro to alter his past would be to alter that 10 minute sequence of events.

Even with your personal time-lines theory, Hiro has changed his own past. The phone call he got from himself is his power affecting his own time-line. And, frankly, future Hiro talking to Peter changed the past that Hiro is part of as well. I can't see how it didn't without the aforementioned hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.

BTW, I want to emphasize again that we have no idea that any rules like that are at work on the show. All we have is Hiro's interpretation, which is mixed in with his concept of the heroic ideal and X-Men #143. If this all boils down to Hiro not being able to do certain things because of his own psychological limitations stopping him, then I am fine with it. In that case, effectively, he chooses to limit himself and there is no silly "law of time travel" at play.

Oh, it may be psychological - but I'd still argue that the limitation exists.

If it's just a psychological limitation where it only affect Hiro or someone with a similar psychological disposition, then I am fine with it. If it is some general rule that applies to everyone with that power regardless of their psychology (possible Peter), then it is a plot crutch and a weak one.

[OutsiderNo11]

I really enjoy the show, but I have to admit that I find the character of Sylar to be unbelievable.  To go from angry about his "lack" of powers to serial killer seems like a stretch to me.  It reminds of the last Star Wars movie where Skywalker goes from morally uncertain to child murderer in about 2 seconds.  It doesn't make much sense to me at all.  This coupled with the fact that most other characters on the show who just learn about their powers take a lot of time to develop them and mature into them.

[Conduit]

Re: Endless discussion about how Hiro's powers work

I hate time travel.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I really enjoy the show, but I have to admit that I find the character of Sylar to be unbelievable.  To go from angry about his "lack" of powers to serial killer seems like a stretch to me.  It reminds of the last Star Wars movie where Skywalker goes from morally uncertain to child murderer in about 2 seconds.  It doesn't make much sense to me at all.  This coupled with the fact that most other characters on the show who just learn about their powers take a lot of time to develop them and mature into them.

But that's *exactly* what happens with real serial killers.  They will seem normal to most people, but something happens, maybe even something rather minor, that will trigger the beginning of their sociopathic activities.  This actually makes the show MORE realistic, since Sylar irrationality is exactly what really does happen with real serial killers.

[BentonGrey]

Actually Cat, they only seem normal if you don't look too closesly, sociopaths usually have a history of anti-social behavior, like torturing animals, etc.

[stumpy]

I am a little on both sides of this one.

On the one hand, I think they overplayed Sylar's irrationality. Admittedly, he is not a normal sociopath, but it seems like anyone who was that unhinged would have been found out sooner.

On the other hand, while it's true that most serial killers are said to exhibit other pathological behaviors at some point, those behaviors are not always evident to the people around them. From that perspective, it might have been appropriate that we weren't shown anything like it.

Meanwhile, one of the characters on the show posited the theory that his insanity was growing as he absorbed others' DNA, so Sylar's pattern doesn't have to follow any template set by real-world psychopaths.

[bredon7777]

One last try and then I'll let it go as I get the distinct impression we are talking past, not to each other at this point.

See now here we disagree.  Most people live in what is, effecitvley a very small universe and the larger universe consists of all these smaller universes side by side. And no, everyones time line is not connected-
If I spend 10 minutes eating breakfast, and then teleport 10 minutes into the past (and halfway around the world) to save someone in Paris from a car accident, I have interfered with another persons timeline (chnaging the past) but I have not changed my past- for reasons I'll get into below.

People live in the whole universe; there is no getting around it. If you try to say that people little in little sub-universes that combine to make the whole universe, that still means they live in the larger universe, regardless of any compartmentalization. 

Well, yes, but that's not really relevant.  I've thought of a better example- think of a carton of snowglobes, each snowglobe contaning a handful of people.  Do all the people still exsist inside the carton?  Sure, but its not really relevant in terms of what they can affect- each snowglobe can only deal with the handful of snowglobes around it- the carton isnt affected in any signifcant way by the people inside any snowglobe.

Or as Terry Pratchett once put it: "We're not on the same side. We're on two different sides that happen to be side by side".

BTW, we don't know why Hiro's powers activated at that time; just that they did.

Now you're just being disingenious. 

No. I am being accurate. Time travel may be the most unbeatable power on the show, but Hiro is hardly omniscient or infallible. I am just separating what we actaully saw happen from Hiro's speculation about it. He can conclude that his power works or doesn't work by whatever rules and we have to accept that he might be wrong, especially since he doesn't have any expertise in the field and barely any experience with his power.

No, you're being disengious. Again, go back to my car crah example- do we know that being drunk is what caused the guy to crash his car?  No, but to completely ignore the fact that he spent 90 minutes in a bar drinking just before the crash when speculating about the causes of the crash is silly.  Do we know that Hiros powers malfunctioning was due to him being just about to change his own timeline? No, but to completely ignore that the exact moment his powers spazzed out was when he was just about to change his own timeline seems just as silly.

Oh, and Hiros done little or no speculating about his powers. I've done most of it for him. :D

Sure, Hiro's powers triggering just when he was about to change his own timeline might not have anything to do with changing his own timeline- but that's unlikely, as well.

Here's where your interpretation is making that seem less likely than it needs to. If you accept that Hiro has already changed his time-line, then it doesn't seem so unlikely that Hiro's power - which has worked erratically for him since day one - experienced a glitch at that point. And it was a point at which he had just discovered that, for reasons completely unrelated to any limitation on his power, he couldn't save Charlie anyway.

There is no evidence that Hiro can change his own timleine- him being on both sides of the phone call doesn't prove it. The photograph certainly doesn't prove it as we dont even see it until after he goes back to the past.  And you havent even touched the small but crucial difference between the past and his past.

All we have for certain is the knowledge that future Hiro belives he can change THE past, or he wouldn't even have bothered to deliver the message to Peter.

See here's the thing stumpster- we don't argue about the facts. At a critical moment in his attempt to save Charlie, Hiro's powers malfunctioned and threw him halfway across the world and back into the present.

You would have me believe that these powers (which have not malfunctioned when he was not trying to use them before or since- thats a key point- he was not trying to use his powers in that scene) just chose that moment to randomly malfunction- a moment just before he would have accomplished something that would have changed his personal timeline.

I'm sorry, I cant buy that. It feels like lame, forced and sloppy writing. "Whoops, random power moment that has never happened before and will never happen again".

No.  Some force- call it destiny- call it a psychological limitation- call it a self fufilling prophecy- "In order to  be motivated to get the sword, his powers had to fail. In order for his powers to fail he had to fail to save Charile." - kicked in and threw him back to the present in Japan.  That just makes so much more sense to me.

[...]
So even though Hiro has clearly changed the past, since the 10 minute sequence remains in the exact same order for him, I once again say that he has not changed his past.  I'd argue, and argue strongly that the only way for Hiro to alter his past would be to alter that 10 minute sequence of events.

Even with your personal time-lines theory, Hiro has changed his own past. The phone call he got from himself is his power affecting his own time-line. And, frankly, future Hiro talking to Peter changed the past that Hiro is part of as well. I can't see how it didn't without the aforementioned hair-splitting over what constitutes an "important" change.

Um, no. In no way does being on both ends of a phone call to himself change his past.  And yes, future Hiro thinks he can change THE past, but those two terms are NOT synonyms.

If it's just a psychological limitation where it only affect Hiro or someone with a similar psychological disposition, then I am fine with it. If it is some general rule that applies to everyone with that power regardless of their psychology (possible Peter), then it is a plot crutch and a weak one.

I think it may indeed be psychological.  But where we differ and differ strongly is that I'd view "Whoops! Random Power Firing ™" as a weaker plot crutch by several orders of magnitude.