NBC's _Heroes_

[Gremlin]

Hiro in the future scares a lot of people.  There aren't many that would trust him.  And even those who did might not know enough about Gabriel Gray.  FH probably just didn't know anything about Gray's life pre-Sylar.

[Viking]

One question occurred to me last night:  If Hiro can travel through time...why doesn't he just travel back to a time to where Sylar is helpless and powerless (such as 5 years of age or so)?  That way Sylar can't really put up a defense and the future would be saved.  Then again, the time stream would potentially be altered dramatically.  And Hiro might have several reasons for not doing so...self imposed Bushido/moral code...inability to concentrate on a specific time frame etc.  Any thoughts on other possibilities??

Messing with the time stream has proven to be incredibly difficult - both to do, and to predict.  Hiro has already tried to change something that happened in the past when he was enamored of that waitress in... Texas, was it?  He tried to prevent her from getting killed by Sylar by trying to get her out of the country on the day that she otherwise would have been killed.  Ultimately, he discovered that she had an inoperable brain tumor and was going to die anyway, and failed to change the course of events.  Through this, he became convinced that it is impossible to change events that have already occurred - he directly said as much to Ando.

Granted, this seems like a paradox when compared with the actions of Future Hiro, who came back in time to get Peter Petrelli to successfully save the cheerleader.  Even then, however, Future Hiro made statements that suggest that time-travel and mucking with the timestream is incredibly dangerous and difficult. 

[Sevenforce]

Just had a thought...

[spoiler]Maybe Sylar in the future got Lindermans powers? So future Hiro DID stab him, but instead of using Claires, he used Lindermans, to heal. That would explain how the future is still there - since he hasnt absorbed Linderman YET, he can be taken out in the here and now, but future Hiro wasn't able to take him out at that future point because he had got Lindermans power[/spoiler]

[Conduit]

[spoiler]

Maybe Sylar in the future got Lindermans powers? So future Hiro DID stab him, but instead of using Claires, he used Lindermans, to heal. That would explain how the future is still there - since he hasnt absorbed Linderman YET, he can be taken out in the here and now, but future Hiro wasn't able to take him out at that future point because he had got Lindermans power.

There's been absolutely no indication that Linderman can heal himself.  In the War Buddies comics, he never acted as if he could heal if shot.  In part 5, Dallas punches him and he gets a bloody lip, though I suppose it's possible that he healed himself later.
[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

traditionally we all are exposed to the scifi idea of a timeline immediately nolonger existing once critical events which lead to it's creation are changed. these writers don't appear to be following that convention, otherwise the entire alternate future we saw would have ceased to exist the moment peter saved claire's life in the past. disallowing Syler to have her powers at the point in time where hiro stabs him. - unless Hiro is wrong and saving claire was never they key and she was always meant to survive - but then it just becomes over thinking...

We've absolutely no indication of that whatsoever here.  It was made VERY clear that events HAD been altered in the future by Future Hiro's meddling and certain things HAD changed.  Claire was still alive, for instance, and Sylar had never had her power.  I think the point in him getting it was that Future Hiro really had failed in everything he tried.  Sylar didn't die this time because Hiro didn't stab him this time.  It's as simple as that.

[Sevenforce]

Sylar didn't die this time because Hiro didn't stab him this time.  It's as simple as that.

If thats true, then how can Future Hiro remember stabbing him? Somehow, even with the changes made, things have happened as before, except for subtle differences, such as Claire being alive. I'm gonna give up trying to figure it out, cos it gives me a headache.

[Conduit]

Sylar didn't die this time because Hiro didn't stab him this time.  It's as simple as that.

If thats true, then how can Future Hiro remember stabbing him? Somehow, even with the changes made, things have happened as before, except for subtle differences, such as Claire being alive. I'm gonna give up trying to figure it out, cos it gives me a headache.

Future Hiro only remembers the first timeline, the one where Claire got Sylared.  His memories don't change when he changes the past.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Exactly, because he jumped through the timeline, he was not effected by the changes in the timeline.  I thought that was almost a given.

[captainspud]

My head hurts again.

:blink:

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

That's sort of inevitable with anything related to time travel.

[Sevenforce]

So...wheres the Hiro that wasn't exempt from the jump? Future Hiro(1) travels back in time, changes time. New timeline emerges, which he returns to. Hiro from pre-changed timeline continues on in changed timeline, becoming Future Hiro(2) - where is he? I assumed it was something like that, but with the absence of a second future hiro, that idea becomes a little moot. OR - butterfly effect induced - shouldn't he have gained a bunch of new memories? Except hes moved physically as well as temporally...

STOP! Ok. I'm done. I resign myself to a headache -_-

[Conduit]

Now I have a headache too.  Let's just drop this discussion.

[Pyroclasm]

So everyone in the future believes Sylar was the one who blew up New York.  But Peter said it was he himself that blew up New York (confirmed in dialogue with Sylar).  Was the person Hiro stabbed actually Peter?  Peter has Claire's ability and it isn't beyond possibility that he will gain the Illusion ability.  Can't hazard a reason why he would portray Sylar, but then again that scar could come from Hiro's legendary sword.  (Powers in overload might prevent proper healing.)  Perhaps dispite his efforts, Hiro doesn't change his timeline because the "changes" he makes are what caused his timeline  in the first place.  Ok, it's late and that probably doesn't make any sense (logical or otherwise), but I had to jott it down in the slim chance I get to say "I told you so."

[captainspud]

Seriously, I'd really like to institute a hard no-time-travel-discussions rule in this thread. There simply is no good way for them to end. Do it in PMs if you're interested in discussing it, but all you're doing here is cluttering the thread with the same unproveable arguments over and over.

Any other signatories?

[thanoson]

Ummm..... I like spam? Is that ok? I mean, if future Spam comes back in time, could he change the world? Save the sandwhich, save the world. I'm drunk.

[Mr. Hamrick]

Ummm..... I like spam? Is that ok? I mean, if future Spam comes back in time, could he change the world? Save the sandwhich, save the world. I'm drunk.

Again? I swear this crescent . . . is just a curse. (thanks to Dog's Eye View for that comeback)

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

assuming we follow traditional accepted convention of the results of interference in a timeline

What convention?  There isn't any!  Every fictional thing dealing with time travel does so differently, and is often not even internally consistent.

everything that has occured so far is what had always occured.

Most definitely NOT.

Hiro stabbed Sylar and he healed because he had killed Claire.

After the time jump, Claire is suddenly alive.  Sylar obviously couldn't have regenerated.  Events played out slightly differently, but only VERY slightly.  For all we know, there we all kinds of small differences, but Hiro didn't bother saying, and we didn't see the world before the change.

Besides, the timeline's been altered several times as it is in the show, and Hiro does remember those altered timelines.  There was even one case in which a picture changed in front of Ando's eyes, and it appears that Ando still remember the unaltered timeline's picture.  Like most show going through time travel, it pays not to go overboard with the logic.  It's a TV show, enjoy it, don't rationalize it too much.

[The Hitman]

Hey, I'm gonna stay out of this Time Travel debate... it's getting too deep for me. I'm just resigning myself to the fact that, in a world where men can fly, kids can talk to computers, and Mr. Rorke from Fantasy Island cand heal thing outher that himself (I gather he's the opposite of Claire, y'know, she heals herself, he heals everyone else), time travel's just something that should be enjoyed a face value. What's my stance: Multiverse.

Now, to the real reason I'm posting-

that scar could come from Hiro's legendary sword.  (Powers in overload might prevent proper healing.)

The way I saw it, in that timeline, Peter never met Claire, so he doesn't have healing, but instead has Nikki/ Jessica's sort- of invunerability.

[OutsiderNo11]

My prediction for the final episode:

-Sylar will be stabbed by Hiro and end up in a serious coma.  Next season, he will be kept sedated initially while the Company analyzes his unique abilities and try and remove any powers he has obtained.

-Nathan, tired of being the puppet of his mother and mobsters, will end up sacrificing himself to save New York from Peter.  He will fly Peter out of the city and over the Atlantic.

As for the Hiro's alterations in time:

Hiro has the unique position of being able to change the future.  Unlike Isaac, whose powers made him like Cassandra, Hiro actually can change the future and the past.  However, he doesn't want to mess around with events that have already happened unless he can pinpoint the precise point in time to make an alteration.  That is why he appeared to Peter in the beginning of the series and gave him his first mission.  He figured that a minor alteration like that would have a massive ripple effect, not counting on the true complexity of his actions.

Think of the timeline like that of the Legacy of Kain Series, where if you drop a stone into a river, there is an alteration, but the river still continues on its path.  Hiro is like Raziel, the only being who truly has free will and is not tied done to a specific path.  I suspect that the writers will (hopefully) have Isaac's paintings change if the nuclear explosion is averted.  This is because Isaac only sees the future as it is, not the future that Hiro (and only Hiro) can create.  Remember, once Future Hiro told Peter to save Claire, Isaac's paintings focused on all the events that occurred due to Future Hiro's alterations.

Let's hope that the writers have clearly set out the rules for Hiro's time travel and define them in the show.  Otherwise, anything is possible.

[Sevenforce]

MY BRAIN IS BLEEDING! ><

Seriously, I'd really like to institute a hard no-time-travel-discussions rule in this thread. There simply is no good way for them to end. Do it in PMs if you're interested in discussing it, but all you're doing here is cluttering the thread with the same unproveable arguments over and over.

Any other signatories?

You've got my vote/signature. Even if I did assist in the current status :rolleyes:

[Conduit]

I'll sign too.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

there is a reason conventions exist.

There are no conventions!  That's what I'm trying to say.

feel free to post your own opinions on what may or not be the case. do so in any tone... as though you are the authority even but do not counter posts of my opinion and thoughts as though you are correct, with nothing more than *your* own opinion of events. your opinion is not more valid than my opinion, especially considering it's my own that is in question.

Only if you do the same, which so far, you are not.

At any rate, I'm only trying to point out the way the show has established time travel so far.  My own opinions as to the way time travel should be have nothing whatsoever to do with it.  As a matter of fact, I would probably do it more differently, but I have no problem with going with the inconsistencies.

[The Pwime]

...

[bredon7777]

OK. Ima gonna try and sort this mess out.

First off, people are conflating events that are related, but not the cause of one another: Claire being saved/Hiro stabbing Sylar/the bomb going off.

The reason that the majority of the future did not change for Future Hiro is that Sylar was never the bomb. The bomb was always Peter.  Future Peter admits as much to Future Niki, saying that Nathan lied for him by telling people it was Sylar.

So, at some point in between when he came back from the future and when the bomb goes off, Hiro will stab Sylar.  This should/will not affect the bomb in any way..  However, in Future Hiro's original timeline, he had killed Claire and regenerated.  Now, because Hiro had Peter save Claire, he will not. Again, this does (or should) not affect the bomb. Future Hiro based his entire mission on a false premise.

As for everyone not knowing Claire was alive, I merely took that to mean that once she had been saved and the bomb went off, HRG hid her very well and let everyone THINK she was dead. That explains everyones surprise.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I agree with you and intended to say something along those lines.

[Revenant]

OK. Ima gonna try and sort this mess out.

First off, people are conflating events that are related, but not the cause of one another: Claire being saved/Hiro stabbing Sylar/the bomb going off.

The reason that the majority of the future did not change for Future Hiro is that Sylar was never the bomb. The bomb was always Peter.  Future Peter admits as much to Future Niki, saying that Nathan lied for him by telling people it was Sylar.

So, at some point in between when he came back from the future and when the bomb goes off, Hiro will stab Sylar.  This should/will not affect the bomb in any way..  However, in Future Hiro's original timeline, he had killed Claire and regenerated.  Now, because Hiro had Peter save Claire, he will not. Again, this does (or should) not affect the bomb. Future Hiro based his entire mission on a false premise.

As for everyone not knowing Claire was alive, I merely took that to mean that once she had been saved and the bomb went off, HRG hid her very well and let everyone THINK she was dead. That explains everyones surprise.

And because Peter saved Clair, per Future Hiro's instructions, he will now survive when he goes nuclear.  Although, he might have survived anyway even without her regenerative power.  We don't know if the nuclear blast kills Ted when he loses control or not.

[Conduit]

Ted has always been completely unharmed by his radioactive emissions, even when they're strong enough to burn the skin off of someone a few feet away.  Exploding shouldn't be any different.  Also, A) Peter was alive in Future Hiro's original timeline, hence the "you look different without your scar" comment, and B) Claire can't regenerate if her brain is removed, there is absolutely positively no way in heck that someone with Claire's powers could survive being inside a nuclear fireball and being completely vaporized, much less being at the center of it and having every molecule torn apart.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Even Nathan stated that Claire's powers could not help with a nuclear explosion, and he's right.

[Sevenforce]

[spoiler]Has it been confirmed yet if Peter can use two powers at once? I watched through the future episode again just to see, but it was too ambiguous. If not...since its now been shown that Sylar can...that should be fun to watch :P[/spoiler]

[thalaw2]

Peter was able to stay invisible and use TK to throw paint cans at Issac.  I think he's done other things too.