NBC's _Heroes_

[Uncle Yuan]

[spoiler]Maybe - recalling the emotion of Claire is how Peter used her power after getting tossed off the building.  But the TK and flight that he used to save Invisible was not justified that way.  I predict that as he moves along in his powers that will be less important.[/spoiler]

[thalaw2]

I don't Unc...

[spoiler] Peter didn't start healing until Claire kneeled at his side.  If the Peter vs. Sylar fight is any good, I want to know how a man with healing can have a permanent scar.  Maybe Sylar will eat the part of the brain that mimics healing...with fava beans.  :P 

Is it me or does the backup story seem to be the same as Prison Break...even the name of The Company?
[/spoiler]

[bredon7777]

Ok, here goes- spoilers both confirmed and speculatory:

Mohinder/Sylar-
[spoiler]
Sorry, Mohinder still retains the title of "dumbest smart guy on the show".  You don't mess around with people like Sylar, no matter how badly you wan't revenge.  This isn't comic books, you aren't Batman, and there are no places that can hold him.  Once you get him down, you shoot him in the <bleeping> head and take your spinal fluid before the body cools.

It's been said that Syalr becomes a regular in season 2.  I think if true (this particular source has been wrong before), this is a HUGE mistake.  The character is one note, unredeemable, and    needs to die.  Even now, I'm tired of him getting away from the justice he so richly deserves.
[/spoiler]

Peter-
[spoiler]
Ow, his powers give me a headache.  Orignally I'd say he shouldn't be able to absorb the powers Sylar absorbed, but, of course, the show has already shown he can.  However, he should not be able to use any of the powers besides TK, since he doesn't have knowledge of them, and even if he did he has no knowledge of the people who had them to use as a trigger.  The scar has been discussed to death so I wont go over it again, other than as long as they use one of the many explanations for it, I'll be happy.

Looking forward to seeing him kick Sylar's butt in the next episode though.
[/spoiler]

HRG/Nathan
[spoiler]
Wow, talk about emotional whiplash.  Nathan goes from creep to good guy back to creep when talking to Linderman (heh. "Now you can't have any pot pie.")

And I went from wanting Peter to kick HRG's butt- to feeling sorry for him- to thinking "wow, justified  but still a <bleep>" - in his interactions with Issac - to rooting for him.  I'm worried about the rest of his family now - the Organization Without Initials know they know and no more Haitian to remove memories, I'm thinking they're gonna die.
[/quote]

Claire-
[spoiler]
Claire kicks butt.  Period. I'm glad she'll be back for Season 2. The expression on her face when Mama Petrelli told her to come in was pricless. [/spoiler]

Hiro/Ando-
[spoiler]
Its very suspicious that Ando was waiting for Hiro.  He's clearly working for someone (see my comments about Linderman).  There are two questions:
a) Why is Sulu allowing Hiro to wander around America?  Does he think he's crazy and does not want him embarssing the family in Japan? or is he trying to pull a HRG and keep Hiro safe from the OWI?
b) I thought the sword was going to let Hiro control his power?  Seems odd he miscalculated his teleportation so badly as to end up not just outside the casino, but accross the country and 5 years in the future.
[/spoiler]

Linderman-
[spoiler]
Ok, I'm thinking we're setting up for a war.  On one side we have Linderman and Mama Petrelli  on the other we have the OWI.  But we dont know who are the good guys and who are the bad  guys.

I've gone over what I think Linderman's power is.  so I wont do it again.

Now- is Ando working for Linderman?  Or Sulu?
[/quote]

Jessica/Niki/Micah/DL-

By the end of the season one of them wins and has full control of the body. Cant come soone enough.

And is it just me or has Micah and Dl's stories come to a CRASHING stop?
[/spoiler]

3,369,600 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,599 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,598 seconds until a new episode...

Ya think I'm a little hooked? :D

[stumpy]

Hmmm.

[Sorry if I mess up the quotes. I couldn't always tell what was you and what was supposed to be outside speculation you were quoting.]

[spoiler]

Mohinder/Sylar-

Sorry, Mohinder still retains the title of "dumbest smart guy on the show".  You don't mess around with people like Sylar, no matter how badly you wan't revenge.  This isn't comic books, you aren't Batman, and there are no places that can hold him.  Once you get him down, you shoot him in the <bleeping> head and take your spinal fluid before the body cools.

I agree 100%. Rule #1: Don't leave the murderous, super-powered psychopath alive. Getting a drug dose fine tuned to the point where it keeps someone physically paralyzed but doesn't knock them out is dodgy business at best. With someone like Sylar, it is just plain stupid to count on that working right. (And why does he need him awake anyway?) Meanwhile, many of Sylar's powers are mental (he doesn't have to move to use them), so just being awake means he is dangerous. Mohinder is a bonehead.

It's been said that Syalr becomes a regular in season 2.  I think if true (this particular source has been wrong before), this is a HUGE mistake.  The character is one note, unredeemable, and    needs to die.  Even now, I'm tired of him getting away from the justice he so richly deserves.

I don't mind him still being around as a background threat. I don't want it to be because one of the good guys was dumb enough to just let him go. But, I don't need all the baddies to meet their end when the current arc closes because I think good stories can come from recurring villains. Where would BtVS have been if Spike had been staked early on?

Peter-

Ow, his powers give me a headache.  Orignally I'd say he shouldn't be able to absorb the powers Sylar absorbed, but, of course, the show has already shown he can.  However, he should not be able to use any of the powers besides TK, since he doesn't have knowledge of them, and even if he did he has no knowledge of the people who had them to use as a trigger.  The scar has been discussed to death so I wont go over it again, other than as long as they use one of the many explanations for it, I'll be happy.

I agree that Peter's powers are too much. He automatically out-ubers anyone who shows up, which I think is a mistake for the story. If Hiro's power is a constant plot-hole waiting to happen (e.g. "Why doesn't he just freeze time for the baddy ...?", etc.), then Peter's is a plot crater.

However, that horse has left the barn. Peter already has TK, which shows he doesn't need to meet the original owner of a power to copy it from Sylar and use it. Meanwhile, I agree and hope that they adopt the idea that Peter at least has to know someone has a power before he can use it (which gets around my previously stated problem of the powers he's absorbed from countless New Yorkers over the years), but we already know he can absorb passive powers without knowing their owners had them, like Claire's regeneration. So, the best we can hope for is that he needs to know the owners have a power before he can use it for active powers. Unless the writers contrive some other limitation on him....

Linderman-

Ok, I'm thinking we're setting up for a war.  On one side we have Linderman and Mama Petrelli  on the other we have the OWI.  But we dont know who are the good guys and who are the bad  guys.

I haven't seen anything that makes me think Linderman is in cahoots with Mama P. Not that they couldn't be, but everything I have seen makes me think they are working at cross purposes, such as Linderman hiring Jessica to off Nathan...

Now- is Ando working for Linderman?  Or Sulu?

I have been betting on Sulu, just because that at least partially explains why Sulu was willing to leave Hiro in the US.

Jessica/Niki/Micah/DL-

By the end of the season one of them wins and has full control of the body. Cant come soone enough.

I could go either way on this. On the one hand, that storyline has been so marginal that I almost wouldn't care if Niksica gets hit by a meteor and dies. On the other hand, if they are going to keep her around (and I suspect they are because, hey, hot chick == ratings), then I don't mind if she remains a "hero with a dark problem" or a "villain with a weakness". I just don't think this needs to be resolved.

And is it just me or has Micah and Dl's stories come to a CRASHING stop?

Kinda, though I'll re-complain that they've been running in place for most of the season.

Of course, we did find out that DL isn't completely taken in by Jessica. For that thread, that's about all I can expect. I'm just glad Micah hasn't been caught cyber-grifting and spends three episodes in juvy.
[/spoiler]

3,369,600 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,599 seconds until a new episode...
3,369,598 seconds until a new episode...

Ya think I'm a little hooked? :D

I hear ya!   ^_^

[Gremlin]

Some ideas about those "four simple genes" Mohinder found:

[spoiler]What if those four genes don't define the powers themselves, but the ability to channel the psionic energy that can be manifested as a power?  I'm in the "all the powers are psychic and are shaped by individuals" camp, by the way.  Anywho, so let's say those four genes create a new "power lobe" in your brain.  However, the powers themselves are defined by an entirely different set of genes.  Mohinder wasn't looking for those specifically, just the common genes that kept popping up.  So, let's presume that's true, and Sylar's been pulling these "definition genes" from his victims.  What happens if sombody has all the genes for a power lobe but none of the power definitions?  What about if you had definition genes but no power lobe genes: would Peter or Sylar be able to take your power from you?  Or what if you had incomplete ones, or ones that were seemingly incompatible?  Look at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?  If Claire has children, will they pick up on these power genes, or will they develop their own?  Are the genes pre-defined, or are they shaped by the person who carries them?  Maybe the power lobe has a default power: to alter the Special's DNA.  As the Special grows up, their development actually shapes their definition genes.  Now, of course this process would be slow, but it makes sense.  Just look at Nathan: he's spent his whole life, in his mind, protecting Peter and following orders from his mom.  He's always wanted to escape the pressures of his life, and what's more escapist than flight?  Peter's always been able to relate to others, so his "definition genes" adapted to relate to other definition genes.  If that's the case, Claude might have some serious issues; maybe he was a middle child in a family and had nothing special to define himself with, and thus always felt like he was invisible to his parents.  Sylar's practically been conditioned since birth to become a clockmaker, and has always had a desire to prove himself.  If that's the case, perhaps the ability to steal others' powers is an ability unique to him, born of his desire to be special.[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

[spoiler]

I'm in the "all the powers are psychic and are shaped by individuals" camp, by the way.

Why? Have I missed some evidence the show has presented to support that notion? (I'm not against it, just curious where it's coming from.)

Look at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?

We don't really know that they did. For the most part, it seems like most specials come from non-special parents, so it isn't necessarily the case that a special child will have abilities related to those of his parents, whether they were specials or muggles.

BTW, if it turns out that a specials powers are determined by their experiences (kind of the way energy-x works), then it doesn't seem like that second set of "definition" genes would really be DNA in the way anyone thinks of it. The show's suggestion that Chandra (via his HGP hocus pocus) had some idea what someone's power might be from studying that individual's genetic information makes it seem unlikely that the powers are environmentally determined.

In my mind, we still haven't been given much in the way of clues as to how the powers come about or manifest. We don't know why most people seem to get them as adults (though the suggestion is there that Claire had them as a baby, Micah has them now, and we know the Haitian had them pretty young). We don't know why they seem to be expressing themselves at this point in time. Is it just a hugely unlikely coincidence of nature that now is the time people from all over the world start mutating in the same way or was it triggered by something? Did someone try to make it happen by exposing people to some stimulus or was it an accident?
[/spoiler]

[Uncle Yuan]

So when does NBC put episodes up on the web?  I just watched #18 and now I have to wait until the next one goes up . . .

[thalaw2]

[spoiler]
Why? Have I missed some evidence the show has presented to support that notion?

Look at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?

We don't really know that they did. For the most part, it seems like most specials come from non-special parents, so it isn't necessarily the case that a special child will have abilities related to those of his parents, whether they were specials or muggles.

I haven't seen this.  It seems like most of the specials have special parents.  Claire's mother is pryro kinetic and her father can fly.  Micha's mother has the two personality thing and his father can pass through solid objects....Has there been any incident where it was shown that specials had non-special parents?  I confess that I haven't seen every episode.
[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

So when does NBC put episodes up on the web?  I just watched #18 and now I have to wait until the next one goes up . . .

Every week after the new one goes up.

Since there will be no more new episodes until late April, there will be no new ones on the site either.

[stumpy]

[spoiler]

[...]It seems like most of the specials have special parents.  Claire's mother is pryro kinetic and her father can fly.  Micha's mother has the two personality thing and his father can pass through solid objects....Has there been any incident where it was shown that specials had non-special parents?  I confess that I haven't seen every episode.

I guess I am going by what we know, instead of by what we don't know didn't happen. In other words, what you have shown is that, out of all the specials on the show, we know of two whose parents were specials. To me, that isn't a strong case for most specials having special parents.

(Not that that can't change, of course. For instance, there is always some chance that Mrs. Petrelli or Sulu or some other parent will be written to have powers. Or that some other special, like Linderman, might have special kids.)[/spoiler]



UY, I think someone said that NBC posts the shows the day after they air, but I can't be sure of that.

[GhostMachine]

I've got an idea that would make the Jessica\Nikki storyarc more interesting, but I don't think its the way they're going to go.....

[spoiler]What if Jessica wasn't part of her power, and Nikki was actually either possessed by her dead sister or an actual split personality, and Nikki's real power involved mirrors, but neither she or Jessica realized it and just thought the mirror thing was a way for them to communicate?

Imagine this: Jessica does something to make Nikki severely angry, and taunts Nikki, knowing she's helpless to do anything about it. Nikki's temper explodes, and either the mirror she is in shatters and sends shards flying, slicing Jessica to ribbons (enough to hurt her bad, but not kill her), OR Nikki walks out of the mirror, in a separate body, and is just as strong as Jessica is? Jessica obviously has actual combat skills, which would give her an advantage, but I wouldn't count a full on angry person with equal strength out of the fight.[/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

I think that specials are like Marvel mutants, in that a child of non-specials can be a special in rare cases, but a child of specials is almost certainly going to be one himself.  After all, the organization expected Claire to develop powers, even though they indicated that she had none (that they knew of) as an infant.

[stumpy]

I'm not sure the show has really said that, but I think it makes the most sense in terms of normal biology. And the heritability of the powers in some sense is supported by the fact that two brothers have them (though their powers are nothing alike). However, we also know that there is some way of telling whether someone is a potential special just from a DNA sample, so that could be how they knew about Claire.

I'm also cautious about thinking about the heredity of the specials in the same way we might think of normal biological heredity because things aren't really being shown to follow normal biological patterns. For example, if my genes mutate such that I can control magnetic fields, then my kids are likely to have that power or one very similar because those are the genes they will have. But, in the show, the two kids we know about have powers that bear little similarity to their parents' powers. It would be like I can control magnetic fields and my kids can transmute themselves into pasta sauce.

In addition, there is the factor of television fiction, which means that people who happen to be on the show will have a higher frequency of expressing powers than is realistic. That's bound to happen because it's convenient to use characters that are already part of the storyline, but doesn't mean that the examples we see on the show are a good reference for how things are generally supposed to work. It means we have to be careful about inferring that something that seems to be the pattern among the few specials we see on the show is the representative pattern for specials in the Heroes world. Just like, on a cop show, it's very common that someone's father or sister or whatever is also in law enforcement, way more often than in real life. We are seeing anecdotes, not statistically valid data.

[starlock]

[spoiler]

I'm in the "all the powers are psychic and are shaped by individuals" camp, by the way.

Why? Have I missed some evidence the show has presented to support that notion? (I'm not against it, just curious where it's coming from.)

Look at Claire's parents: one with flight, one with pyrokinesis.  How did their genes combine to create regeneration?

We don't really know that they did. For the most part, it seems like most specials come from non-special parents, so it isn't necessarily the case that a special child will have abilities related to those of his parents, whether they were specials or muggles.

BTW, if it turns out that a specials powers are determined by their experiences (kind of the way energy-x works), then it doesn't seem like that second set of "definition" genes would really be DNA in the way anyone thinks of it. The show's suggestion that Chandra (via his HGP hocus pocus) had some idea what someone's power might be from studying that individual's genetic information makes it seem unlikely that the powers are environmentally determined.

In my mind, we still haven't been given much in the way of clues as to how the powers come about or manifest. We don't know why most people seem to get them as adults (though the suggestion is there that Claire had them as a baby, Micah has them now, and we know the Haitian had them pretty young). We don't know why they seem to be expressing themselves at this point in time. Is it just a hugely unlikely coincidence of nature that now is the time people from all over the world start mutating in the same way or was it triggered by something? Did someone try to make it happen by exposing people to some stimulus or was it an accident?
[/spoiler]

i thought before this all started the promo was After a"solar ecipse" or somthing to that effect" blah blah realize they have blah blah( i love the show cant remember the words hehe) powers

i probably am wrong, but i remember before the show came out, i was telling a friend about the premise of the show,and at the time i definetly said solar eclipse or somthing was responsible for their powers coming out- not that i am right hehe
anybody else remember somthing to that effect?

[Uncle Yuan]

The eclipse was kind of a big symbol in the first episode, however it's apparent that many of the heroes had their powers well before that event:  Isaac had been painting some pictures before, we see in flash-back that Eden had hers, Sylar was active before the show started, Claude was active in the organiztion years ago, heck, even the organization itself was well established when Claire was an infant and Hiro a young boy (implying that there were active powers quite a while ago).

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

About whether or not the future can be changed and New York saved, producer Beeman had this to say in an interview in his weekly blog:

[spoiler]

2. In the sneak peek, I saw a person who looks like Claire with HRG but I can't really be positive if it is Hayden, Is my theory right that that is Claire in the future with HRG?

Make sure you watch episode 20 on April 30th, and all will be answered. Just remember in our universe multiple timelines and universes are a very possible phenomenon.

[/spoiler]

[stumpy]

Good to hear. I have been taking it as a given that the future as portrayed in Peter's visions and Hiro's time jumps is changeable or a standard one-of-many deal.

[bredon7777]

Good to hear. I have been taking it as a given that the future as portrayed in Peter's visions and Hiro's time jumps is changeable or a standard one-of-many deal.

Agreed, otherwise what was the point of Future Hiro jumping back in time to tell Peter "Save the cheerleader, save the world"?

[stumpy]

Right, and the mere fact that Hiro can go back in time means that the past is changeable. There may be some contrived restrictions on the changes, but there's no getting around the basic premise.

[captainspud]

Well, not necessarily. There's a style of time travel writing where you show that the travellers aren't actually changing the past, they're performing "necessary" actions to make the present turn out how it was always supposed to. IE, when the "actual" timeline passed by the point where the travellers went, the travellers were there the first time through, and the timeline was always supposed to include their interference. Thus, NOT travelling back would change things.

(ee Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban for an example of this methodology.)

Sigh. Time travel is dumb.

[bredon7777]

Actually, I think they're going with the "Dr. Who" version of time travel, judging by Charlie.

The good Doctor cannot alter events in his own personal timeline, but everything else is fair game.

Hiro was present when Charlie died, so that made it impossible for him to save her.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

There are actually 3 main fictional theories of time travel.  I've named them my own way, but they are the only basic possibilities.  Some series are not consistent about this.  Stargate, for example, has used all 3.

1.  Immutable time.

Time cannot be changed.  Time traveling can only cause the original events to take place.  No matter how hard one tries, one cannot change the past or future.  Attempts to do so will either fail, or cause those events to happen in the first place.  This theory is also used with show having to do with merely viewing the future.

2.  Changable time.

Time is changable stream.  It's course is easily changes and the entire timeline can be made to have never existed by one small mistake.  This theory is often used, but has some many logical problems with it, it isn't even possible.  Since theory #3 can appear to be #2, #3 is often used as a rationalization for those who try to justify stories involving this theory.

3.  Mutiple timelines/universes.

There are at any given time an infinite number of alternate timelines in existence.  Time travel cannot undo or change anything that has happened, but it can form as the catalyst for another timeline.  Traveling through time, therefore, really involves jumping to a new timeline, identical from the original up to the moment that you arrived due to your time travels.  There are no paradoxes as your original timeline, in which you have simply disappeared,  is still intact, but no longer accessible.

EDIT:  There are variations on the Dr. Who version, I suppose, but they make less sense than the others.  Since it has been officially confirmed that Hiro will be

[spoiler]meeting his future self[/spoiler]

I doubt very much that it applies in this case.

[stumpy]

Well, not necessarily. There's a style of time travel writing where you show that the travellers aren't actually changing the past, they're performing "necessary" actions to make the present turn out how it was always supposed to.

I've seen that before, but 1) that still means the past was changed relative to what it would have been without the time travel. The basic point is that the time traveler has an impact on events going forward. 2) I'm not sure that sort of time travel can be what's hinted at here, since Hiro went a future where the explosion occurred, so whatever events in that future's past that prevent the explosion couldn't have been part of its history. Without some sort of separate time-line idea, that theory doesn't work well here.

Thus, NOT travelling back would change things.

Agreed, but, either way, the time travel changed things.

Sigh. Time travel is dumb.

Amen. As much fun as it can be, there is no way to square any sensible notion of causality with time travel. The only time travel that even sort of works for me is the time-line bifurcation kind, where the time-line splits at the point the time traveler arrives in the past.

[Sigh, ninja'd several times, most likely by time-traveling posters  :P]

[bredon7777]

EDIT:  There are variations on the Dr. Who version, I suppose, but they make less sense than the others.  Since it has been officially confirmed that Hiro will be

[spoiler]meeting his future self[/spoiler]

I doubt very much that it applies in this case.

[spoiler]
Dr. Who has met himself repeatedly, so I fail to see why you think Hiro meeting himself rules out that type of  time travel as a factor.  I still maintain, that given the circumstances surronding Charlie's death, It's the explanation that makes the most sense. [/spoiler]

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Well, in that case Dr. Who is contradicting itself, since meeting one's past self, by it's very nature, involves changing your own past.

Besides, Hiro had never met Charlie untill right before he jumped back, so I don't see how that applies.

Besides, it's not like he could change the past, his powers are uncontrollable and cause him to do something he didn't intend, as they always have been shown to do.

[bredon7777]

Well, in that case Dr. Who is contradicting itself, since meeting one's past self, by it's very nature, involves changing your own past.

Uh, no.  Stopping yourself from meeting.,.yourself (Wow, heavy Austin Powers Deja vu) would be changing the past, but that doesn't happen.  There's no contradiction invovled in meeting yourself at 80 when your 20 and then reliving the meeting again when you're the 80 year old one.

Its a bit of an argument for theory #1, but its still workable

Besides, Hiro had never met Charlie untill right before he jumped back, so I don't see how that applies.

It applies because he was in the diner when she died- which made her death part of his own personal timeline, and thus impossible for him to change.

Besides, it's not like he could change the past, his powers are uncontrollable and cause him to do something he didn't intend, as they always have been shown to do.

Current Hiro, perhaps.  Obviously, Future Hiro belives he CAN change the past, otherwise why bother with the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" rigamarole.  And Future Hiro is suppsoed to have a great deal more control over his powers, though obviously the sword isnt quite helping yet.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Current Hiro, perhaps.  Obviously, Future Hiro belives he CAN change the past, otherwise why bother with the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" rigamarole.  And Future Hiro is suppsoed to have a great deal more control over his powers, though obviously the sword isnt quite helping yet.

But what does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about your argument that not saving Charlie means that he can't change his own timeline.  It was current Hiro who was involved in that incident.  Future Hiro has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I'm also not saying that he can't change the past as is.  He already has.

In fact, I've counted 4 different timelines in Heroes so far.

1.  The "current" timeline of heroes.  Diverged from #2 when Hiro goes back in time six months to meet Charlie for an undefined period.  This change is very significant, in that Hiro learned to speak English from Charlie.

2.  Hiro just met Charlie right before her death.  Changed when Hiro jumped back in time.  Unknown what changes Hiro's not learning English well would have had in the present timeline.

3.  Timeline created by Hiro when he first jumps into the future.  In this timeline, Hiro disappears for all five weeks, Ando never leaves Japan, and he disappears in the nuclear explosion.

4.  Similar to #2, except Hiro is present.  This is the same timeline that future Hiro comes from and that Hiro and Ando just time jumped to.  It's yet unknown if it branches off from the current timeline, or if events diverge even in the present.  We'll probably find out come episode 20.

[bredon7777]

Current Hiro, perhaps.  Obviously, Future Hiro belives he CAN change the past, otherwise why bother with the whole "Save the cheerleader, save the world" rigamarole.  And Future Hiro is suppsoed to have a great deal more control over his powers, though obviously the sword isnt quite helping yet.

But what does that have to do with anything?  I'm talking about your argument that not saving Charlie means that he can't change his own timeline.  It was current Hiro who was involved in that incident.  Future Hiro has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

I'm also not saying that he can't change the past as is.  He already has.

In fact, I've counted 4 different timelines in Heroes so far.

1.  The "current" timeline of heroes.  Diverged from #2 when Hiro goes back in time six months to meet Charlie for an undefined period.  This change is very significant, in that Hiro learned to speak English from Charlie.

2.  Hiro just met Charlie right before her death.  Changed when Hiro jumped back in time.  Unknown what changes Hiro's not learning English well would have had in the present timeline.

Sorry, unless and until we hear that Future Hiro learned English somewhere else, these still fall into Hiros own personal timeline being covered under rule #1.  Hiro's timeline takes place out of chronological order, true - but nothing in it has been changed.

3.  Timeline created by Hiro when he first jumps into the future.  In this timeline, Hiro disappears for all five weeks, Ando never leaves Japan, and he disappears in the nuclear explosion.

That's changing the future, not the past.  There is still no evidence that Hiro can change his own past.

4.  Similar to #2, except Hiro is present.  This is the same timeline that future Hiro comes from and that Hiro and Ando just time jumped to.  It's yet unknown if it branches off from the current timeline, or if events diverge even in the present.  We'll probably find out come episode 20.

Again, that deals with future events, which we all agree Hiro can change.  There is some evidence that Hiro can change past events that are not part of his own personal timelime, such as Claire's presumed death at the hands of Sylar (Again, if Hiro couldn't change past events he would not have bothered going back in time to warn Peter)

From where I sit, there is still no real evidence that Hiro can change his own personal timeline.

[captainspud]

Sigh.

Can we stop this argument? Until we get a definite idea of what model the show is using (if indeed it's using a consistent model at all, which it might not be if it's being written by committee), this whole discussion is purely theoretical and has no possible "right answer".

As I mentioned above-- time travel is dumb. From a writing point of view, it just makes way more problems than it's worth.

[Sevenforce]

Hear hear. To be completely annoying, the fact that the show hasn't followed very good scientific rules to begin with concerning powers, the genetics, etc. means that I, for one, will not make an argument about the physics involving time travel within the show. There's far too many unknowns, contradictions and just downright inconsistencies that would restrict us from reaching a reasonable model that could be agreed by all and sundry :)

Then again, knowing we're all geeks, we're gonna argue until we're blue in the faces anyways. -_-

Just remember - everytime you get into an argument about comic/tv physics...God kills a catgirl.

So please...think of the catgirls :P

(Hiro rules all!)