A New Engine chat

[SickAlice]

Not even a fresh idea of course but one I thought we should bat around again. Obviously I'm talking about making a new Freedom Force game engine right from the ground up. I know we got the talent to pull it off easy here. So this is for putting down the rough draft and what it would need to have/should have. Even if it never comes to be and we just have a fantasy discussion. Right off the top of my head I'm thinking we'd want the most up to date Netimmerse graphics and such. Also being able to use any older format would be cool, like you could just stick  and  things in it fine. Maybe some more right in game editor capacity. Just to start things off. Let's spread some imagination jam! 

[detourne_me]

I feel like Unity would be the most accessible engine, since it's free,  is it compatible with Gamebryo stuff at all?

I was looking at the Gamebryo page, and they offer a free trial, but we would need to license something for a bigger project.

What would people want out of a newer engine anyway?
A sandbox mode? The ability to map controls to a controller? Easier to produce mods? Metadata for hero files?

[SickAlice]

I was thinking Unity as well. That also gives easy access to mobile. It is compatible. I don't understand the specifics, yet, but in extraction I've found mobile games that are Unity engine based but also contain many different format types. As well Nif is a relatively easy format to convert to other types these days (to think how difficult it was about a decade ago?). Really that's more beyond me and something our talented scripters would know better though.

Sandbox mode is nice. I also think extended genre options, like racing, fighting, so on. A big need I would want to see is the ability to spawn self contained games for the designer, a step up from mods in other words. Even better if they could be shared via android and such. Much more cumbersome design ability for animations of course, that's long overdue. Like an actual in game character studio.

I like where this is going already, can't wait to see this pages deep.

[Cyber Burn]

I've always wanted to see a "Capture the Flag" Mode in FF. I wonder if this is possible with Unity?

[Deaths Jester]

Wasn't Bearded trying something like this awhile back using Unity?

[Cyber Burn]

Yeah, and if I'm not mistaken, there was a thread floating around which contained an executable file.

[Deaths Jester]

The thread with the exe is entitled "Something Big" and is either on the first or second page of this section. Would've linked but am on phone.

[spydermann93]

This is something that I've been pondering for a loooong time. There are so many features that I would like to adjust/change completely and I have a Lynda account so that I can learn how to use Unity (which I've had some practice with for my CS Capstone Project).

It's just a matter of time, really. I've been really busy, but in my free time, I've been learning how to use GIMP (why is Photoshop so expensive!?!), Blender, and Unity in hopes for creating a re-vitalized FF game.

As for the Bearded thread, yeah, he had some interesting projects in the works and I would have loved to see more of them.

[SickAlice]

Bearded was the inspiration yeah. But I'm convinced we could all work as a team together on something. I mean I seriously have no doubt in my mind that this community could form an actual game company and produce a quality game for that matter. After all it's really what we already do anyways. For that matter if a new engine needs a working title I'm suggesting Freedom Reborn right out the gate of course. Love the ideas so far BTW.

[Deaths Jester]

...why do I have the feeling I'm going to get roped into doing skins once my computer gets back on it's feet.....

[daglob]

...why do I have the feeling I'm going to get roped into doing skins once my computer gets back on it's feet.....

You mean you weren't planning to?

[Deaths Jester]

...why do I have the feeling I'm going to get roped into doing skins once my computer gets back on it's feet.....

You mean you weren't planning to?

[daglob]

Your statement almost sounds like you were not planning on skinning again; re-reading it you just mean in this instance. Sorry.

No excuse; the meds have worn off and it's time for more...

[Epimethee]

I'm interested! For years, I've been hoping some other game would offer appropriate modding hooks to make this easier than basically starting from scratch, but so far no luck. Using Unity (or, depending on the design goal, something cruder) seems indeed the best bet.

[Epimethee]

FWIW, a few potential questions and answers to help get this started. If we get some sort of consensus on questions and possible answers, we can do a quick survey using Google Forms or something similar.


1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

2. How can we achieve it?
a) By using a low tech approach to leverage our existing capabilities and to attract new collaborators more easily.
b) By using a higher tech approach, developping new skills and by trying to attract fewer by more qualified collaborators.

3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else

4. What is our design philosophy?
Ex.: Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun

5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- Very easily moddable
- As completely moddable as possible
- ...

6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills
- Time
- Collaboration experience
- Other resources (If someone has a few millions lying around, we could maybe hire some coders.)

7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources)
b) closed source (easier to monetize to attract and retain pro collaborators; paid access to some unique resources)

8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
c) iOS
d) Android
e) Consoles
f) VR/AR
g) Anything that can run a Web browser
h) Board game
i) Direct brain interface
j) Something else! How could you have omitted [...]

9.What are the potential development platforms?
a) Vendor solution (Unity 3D)
- Unified out-of-the-box solution
- Professional quality
- Professional difficulty
- Limited transferable skills
b) HTML-based solution
- Different unmatched parts, harder to integrate
- More limited sophistication
- Easier to get involved -Very transferable skills
c) Modding an existing project
- Easiest entry
- Very limited scope
- Extremely limited transferable skills

10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!

11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...

[Cyber Burn]

1. What is our main design goal?

d) All of the above If it's at all Possible


2. How can we achieve it?

c) I'm not the most Tech-Savvy Person, but I'm trying to learn as I go. I'd say, maybe start with the Tech we have, and then upgrade as we're able.


3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?

e) All of the above


4. What is our design philosophy?
Ex.: Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun

a) Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun Yup, what you said 

5. How is that philosophy expressed?

- As completely moddable as possible


6. Who can contribute what?

- Skills My limited Skoping, Skinning, and FX Making Skills are available
- Time Time is going to decrease, but what I have, I will freely give
- Collaboration experience Most of what I do here is the result of collaboration


7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources) If we can get something together, Id say go open source first. If it works out, then maybe go another route.


8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac

These are the ones that would keep it Moddable, right? I only do Windows, so I'm not familiar with anything else.


9.What are the potential development platforms?

d) Um, huh???

10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!

a) There are a lot of options, personally, I'd try Google Docs first, since it has such a variety of ways to let us collaborate.

11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...

a) With all of us having so many other responsibilities outside of FR, I don't know if putting a timeline on this is a good idea.

[yell0w_lantern]

I want an even more powerful and user-friendly way to create missions.

[spydermann93]

FWIW, a few potential questions and answers to help get this started. If we get some sort of consensus on questions and possible answers, we can do a quick survey using Google Forms or something similar.


1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

For most of the FF mechanics, I think the game plays very nicely, but there are more customization features that I would like to bring back from FF1 (like AD's with HP) and other things that I would like to change (e.g. Mental and Mystical damage being a thing)

2. How can we achieve it?
a) By using a low tech approach to leverage our existing capabilities and to attract new collaborators more easily.
b) By using a higher tech approach, developping new skills and by trying to attract fewer by more qualified collaborators.

Kind of a combo for me. I'd love to learn how to use new tools, but at the same time, I am not a AAA developer, so the lower tech approach would probably be a more viable route for me.

3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else

Renew the FF game's mechanics and modding capabilities. A character creator would be nice to have as long as an exporter so people can download their characters and modify them even more with whatever modelling tool they'd like (within the model file's type limitations, of course)

4. What is our design philosophy?
Ex.: Encourage creativity, learning, sharing and fun

Inspiring creativity and providing each player with tools that will allow them to create the hero that they've always wanted to see

5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- Very easily moddable
- As completely moddable as possible
- ...

The ability to customize powers just like the FF games have allowed us to do, but with more options like the Mental and Mystical damage capabilities that I mentioned earlier. I have plenty more ideas, but power customization and character creation are my big two.

6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills Comfortable with various code languages and I have dabbled in Unity, so I at least understand the basic layout of the program
- Time Might be a bit tough to fit this project in on the weekdays, but weekends I typically have free (for the most part)
- Collaboration experience Like teamwork? I'm comfortable with working groups
- Other resources (If someone has a few millions lying around, we could maybe hire some coders.)

I'll add more later; gotta go

7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources)
b) closed source (easier to monetize to attract and retain pro collaborators; paid access to some unique resources)

8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
c) iOS
d) Android
e) Consoles
f) VR/AR
g) Anything that can run a Web browser
h) Board game
i) Direct brain interface
j) Something else! How could you have omitted [...]

9.What are the potential development platforms?
a) Vendor solution (Unity 3D)
- Unified out-of-the-box solution
- Professional quality
- Professional difficulty
- Limited transferable skills
b) HTML-based solution
- Different unmatched parts, harder to integrate
- More limited sophistication
- Easier to get involved -Very transferable skills
c) Modding an existing project
- Easiest entry
- Very limited scope
- Extremely limited transferable skills

10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!

11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...

[Neros Urameshi]

Will it be used for a possible Freedom Force 3 (fan project)?

[Deaths Jester]

1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

I go with all the above?

2. How can we achieve it?
a) By using a low tech approach to leverage our existing capabilities and to attract new collaborators more easily.
b) By using a higher tech approach, developping new skills and by trying to attract fewer by more qualified collaborators.

Lower tech is probably the cheaper way right now...

3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else

Uhhhh......


6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills
- Time
- Collaboration experience
- Other resources (If someone has a few millions lying around, we could maybe hire some coders.)

We all know what my skills and collab experience is but time constraints are closing in on me with two day jobs and mounting RPG contract work...


8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac
c) iOS
d) Android
e) Consoles
f) VR/AR
g) Anything that can run a Web browser
h) Board game
i) Direct brain interface
j) Something else! How could you have omitted [...]

A and B are probably the best

11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...

Whenever I run out of booze?

[Epimethee]

Will it be used for a possible Freedom Force 3 (fan project)?

Hypothetically... but that seems a wee bit ambitious given the current size of the FR community. A smaller scope might be less of a moonshot.

[SickAlice]

Well put and here's someone who has it all together.

FWIW, a few potential questions and answers to help get this started. If we get some sort of consensus on questions and possible answers, we can do a quick survey using Google Forms or something similar.


1. What is our main design goal?
Given the amount of time put into what we've all done here and how Freedom Force, in fact noting the Nif format has organically evolved into it's own beast I think this one is a little more complex than all that. The design goal would be to recapture the accessible modding/creation engine we've played with for years as it is the foundation that has kept this going to date, and really quoting old and new members there's never been one quite like it. It however is out of date and lacks modern aesthetics as well is locked in a static format so needs to be upgraded visually and opened up to modern formats. I'd think in one hand we want it to be convenient to us and give us the things we always wanted but didn't have in the engine but in the other also make it cumbersome and appealing to anyone who never stepped foot inside our modding circle nor our sisterhoods, hence the suggestion for in game editors. In the former I'd think it imperative that our previous works (nif) be incorporated though probably more fitting convertible to the new. Naturally no one wants to lose the volume of their works, a hindrance already presented between both games despite workarounds.

2. How can we achieve it?
As far as the tech end is concerned Unity pretty much opens up both to us so that's covered. Else I'd think we'd want it open to any, again as well to other sister game modders already working elsewhere with the Nif formats.

3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
d) Legacy. Reaching the absolute zenith of everything any of us has learned, applied and worked together on and letting it run free in the world.

4. What is our design philosophy?
Evolution.

5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- As completely moddable as possible <---

6. Who can contribute what?
I think the forum is pretty much a dossier of this already, just a matter of when and whom has the time or inclination. As well the web itself in other communities and more in the general gaming mod arenas. There's clearly tons of interest in development out there and we all know people, a little handing out business cards goes a long way.

7. What kind of licence would the project have?
Open without a doubt.

8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
Mutliplatform but mobile centric is pretty much the standard of times and the next gen.

9.What are the potential development platforms?
Not my fortay so whatever is concluded to best meet our goals by those with an exact understanding of that.

10.How would we work together?
We already do now so par the course. I figure if we can do what we have already been doing than it should be just as easy to transition, added this would probably give everyone a much need spark.

11. What would be the timeline?
All the above really but more trend just as we have now, so organically. It seems to me our output and growth in this community seems to work on it's own clock regardless anyways, another really cool thing about what we have here when you reflect on it as a side note.

Off the top of my head anyways.

[Deaths Jester]

3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
d) Legacy. Reaching the absolute zenith of everything any of us has learned, applied and worked together on and letting it run free in the world.

But..but..I thought I already had a legacy.....

[hmarrs]

I feel like Unity would be the most accessible engine, since it's free,  is it compatible with Gamebryo stuff at all?

I was looking at the Gamebryo page, and they offer a free trial, but we would need to license something for a bigger project.

What would people want out of a newer engine anyway?
A sandbox mode? The ability to map controls to a controller? Easier to produce mods? Metadata for hero files?

Man all I want is different gamplay I have been asking for years.I skin Mesh Skope Map you name it but I dont play because no offense to those of you that like it but I hate RPG.
I cant do the stop and choose it just takes me out of the game.
Id rather a first person or second perspective and play like behind the character nonstop sort of like the Batman Arkum series.

[Epimethee]

7. What kind of licence would the project have?
a) open source (easier to attract collaborators; free access to lot of resources) If we can get something together, Id say go open source first. If it works out, then maybe go another route.

The point of open source is that it stays open source. But since we wouldn't be starting from scratch, the license would depend on what building blocks we use.

8. Which platforms do we want to serve?
a) Windows
b) Mac

These are the ones that would keep it Moddable, right? I only do Windows, so I'm not familiar with anything else.

Those two and Linux would be the most obvious, but it depends how the modding system is set up. If we were to use a partially or fully web-based system, many platforms would be mod-friendly to some degree.

10.How would we work together?
It of course depends on the development platform and whether this would be open source or not. But free cloud-based solutions are now the norm, which is all kinds of amazing. How much better things would have been had we had this when working on FFX!

a) There are a lot of options, personally, I'd try Google Docs first, since it has such a variety of ways to let us collaborate.

Good idea. We need to go further than this, though. Even for a one-person team, version control is now a prerequisite. Doing the project as open source would give us access to GitHub, for example.

11. What would be the timeline?
1. Define the project objectives
2. Identify the main initial collaborators and their roles
3. Define the basic concept
4. Deliver a quick proof of concept
5. Do a lot of work...

a) With all of us having so many other responsibilities outside of FR, I don't know if putting a timeline on this is a good idea.

I'm as overworked as the next guy/gal, but if we intend to deliver something at some point, it's a necessity. Timelines do evolve, of course.

[Epimethee]

I want an even more powerful and user-friendly way to create missions.

+1

[Deaths Jester]

I'd avoid VR because the tech is very new, there isn't a definete code language that works with all VR components (some games only work with Rift, ect), and the cost of it makes it a niche group of gamers right now. As for web-based, with the current rash of viral breakouts I'm a bit hesitant of going that route. I think Windows, Mac, and Linux or Mobile are our best moves.

[Epimethee]

1. What is our main design goal?
a) To reproduce the FF gameplay and to be able to reuse existing assets
b) To take inspiration from the real-time action aspect of FF
c) To take inspiration from the tactical RPG aspect of FF
d) All of the above
e) None of the above

For most of the FF mechanics, I think the game plays very nicely, but there are more customization features that I would like to bring back from FF1 (like AD's with HP) and other things that I would like to change (e.g. Mental and Mystical damage being a thing)

I'll take it as an a)! But we shouldn't downplay how hard this would be. Recreating FF isn't the same as recreating Pong. And right now, I, for one, certainly wouldn't be able to recreate Pong without following a tutorial.

3.What is the main benefit each of us intend to retire from this project?
a) To get to play an enjoyable game
b) To learn new skills transferable to future endeavors
c) To do something together
d) Something else

Renew the FF game's mechanics and modding capabilities. A character creator would be nice to have as long as an exporter so people can download their characters and modify them even more with whatever modelling tool they'd like (within the model file's type limitations, of course)

A character creator/viewer is a fundamental part of the FF experience. This might help us define the first minimum viable product.

6. Who can contribute what?
The most critical aspect. For example, if nobody can code, the development platform and the project scope need to reflect this.
- Skills Comfortable with various code languages and I have dabbled in Unity, so I at least understand the basic layout of the program

Very good!

- Collaboration experience Like teamwork? I'm comfortable with working groups

Like working on a team for building something, where individual creative control has to be limited ("great feature/art, but it doesn't fit the game concept, sorry") and a work method followed ("great feature/art, but it doesn't follow our production guidelines; we can't accept it until you redo it to standards"). Just speaking from my experience (professionally and from working on FFX etc.): This is hard, frustrating, and could turn off talented collaborators, but otherwise, the project ends up being a mess.

[Deaths Jester]

One thing we have to really worry with is the fact Irrational still owns the rights to FF. If we go thru with this, we could end up with legal problems...or something. Just being safe on this...

[Epimethee]

b]1. What is our main design goal?[/b]
Given the amount of time put into what we've all done here and how Freedom Force, in fact noting the Nif format has organically evolved into it's own beast I think this one is a little more complex than all that. The design goal would be to recapture the accessible modding/creation engine we've played with for years as it is the foundation that has kept this going to date, and really quoting old and new members there's never been one quite like it. It however is out of date and lacks modern aesthetics as well is locked in a static format so needs to be upgraded visually and opened up to modern formats. I'd think in one hand we want it to be convenient to us and give us the things we always wanted but didn't have in the engine but in the other also make it cumbersome and appealing to anyone who never stepped foot inside our modding circle nor our sisterhoods, hence the suggestion for in game editors. In the former I'd think it imperative that our previous works (nif) be incorporated though probably more fitting convertible to the new. Naturally no one wants to lose the volume of their works, a hindrance already presented between both games despite workarounds.

I agree as completely as my extremely limited understanding of meshing. The work done by this community is huge and wonderful, but the FF mesh format wasn't cutting-edge for 2001... If we can have something more modular and open (and allowing better visuals), it could make creating new content easier and offer wider possibilities.

2. How can we achieve it?
As far as the tech end is concerned Unity pretty much opens up both to us so that's covered. Else I'd think we'd want it open to any, again as well to other sister game modders already working elsewhere with the Nif formats.

If you or someone else could explore this aspect in Unity (insert puppy-eyed "pleeease"), that'd go a long way toward getting started on the right path.

5. How is that philosophy expressed?
- As completely moddable as possible <---

I don't think you'd get much disagreement from the remaining FR members. 

6. Who can contribute what?
I think the forum is pretty much a dossier of this already, just a matter of when and whom has the time or inclination. As well the web itself in other communities and more in the general gaming mod arenas. There's clearly tons of interest in development out there and we all know people, a little handing out business cards goes a long way.

Love the attitude!

10.How would we work together?
We already do now so par the course. I figure if we can do what we have already been doing than it should be just as easy to transition, added this would probably give everyone a much need spark.

The thing is, this project, even in a limited form, would probably be much more complex (i.e., many vastly different parts—requiring varied expertise—working together correctly) than anything else done in this community. Mind you, FFX, which has its share of connected parts, was more or less developed in isolation, but it still required major commitments from many people (I spent let's say a couple thousand hours on it, and I wasn't a key contributor). In the end, one of the many reasons it stopped getting updates was that it had become too complicated to update easily or to entice new collaborators.

The point is not that we have to get hyper-organized from to start this, of course. In fact, having different people working on early working prototypes of their vision might be best, the "see what sticks to the wall" approach dear to Google etc. However, at some point, if we want to reach the larger goal, a bit more organization would be needed.