DC Comics Reboot

[HarryTrotter]

Official explanation is that prices of paper skyrocketed during the 90's.But Im sure that Diamond having a monopoly on comic distribution didnt really help.
Like I said,its about bleeding the existing audience dry.
@SS funny story,I had a similar talk on a different board.We kinda thought anime and manga are not the best example,because Japan doesnt really have ratings in classical sense.And even something as innocent as a card game can get scary.Yugi pretty much being The Spectre,for example.And thats not even the worst example I could think of something aimed at kids ending up not kid friendly.Cough Gundam F91 cough.And thats still not going into really nasty stuff.

[HarryTrotter]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/08/12/dc-beat-marvels-marketshare-in-july-2016-41-with-a-third-fewer-comics/
Related to an earlier discussion;for the first in quite a while DC has beaten Marvel in sales.But this was the Rebirth month and there was a bunch of #1,so a jump in sales was expected.I doubt that trend will continue thou.

[Silver Shocker]

Official explanation is that prices of paper skyrocketed during the 90's.But Im sure that Diamond having a monopoly on comic distribution didnt really help.
Like I said,its about bleeding the existing audience dry.
@SS funny story,I had a similar talk on a different board.We kinda thought anime and manga are not the best example,because Japan doesnt really have ratings in classical sense.And even something as innocent as a card game can get scary.Yugi pretty much being The Spectre,for example.And thats not even the worst example I could think of something aimed at kids ending up not kid friendly.Cough Gundam F91 cough.And thats still not going into really nasty stuff.

Japan's content standards baffle me. You can show characters being impaled, stabbed, decapitated and shot dead in a kids comic/show, with more bouncing breast than Gurren Lagann and Gundam Seed combined, but their M-rated games get censored for violence. How does that make sense?
As for sexual content, comics blogger Dave Campbell said it best (when taking the urine out of British comics) "My pet theory is that the more outwardly polite and reserved your society is - I'm looking at you, Japan - the more twisted and subversive your pop culture becomes." Yeah, that sounds about right.

[HarryTrotter]

I rather wouldnt start about anime industry and its trends.And I have been sort of out of the loop for years,Best decision ever.I wasnt gonna mention fanservice and stuff like that.
My point being,you cant really compare manga and comics in terms of ratings.In terms of anything,probably.Different values and all that.

[BentonGrey]

In terms of Zelda, how did you feel about the Redeads (Zombies)? And what about Wind Waker, the one that looked like a CGI cartoon, ends with Link shoving his sword directly in Gannondorf's forehead, while Twlight Princess ended with Gannondorf getting his neck snapped (kinda, magic was involved). And then there's Ghirahim, the main villain of Skyward Sword. He looks like this he threatens to make Link "drown in his own blood" and his entire character is meant to sexually aggressive (as seen in that gif), and flamboyant. Then there was the Dynasty Warriors spinoff that made nearly all the female character more sexualized...that mind, that got a t-rating instead of the usual E-10+, but then again, as a Dynasty Warriors game, it was entirely non-stop combat, with flashy special moves.

Not being really familiar with any of this stuff, I can't comment directly, but I'll say this: because something has been done, that doesn't mean it should be done.  Just the same, I don't think that all violence is created equal.  A violent end to the big bad, conducted with some restraint, isn't necessarily something to freak out about.  I suppose it would all depend on what these things actually looked like.  But clearly we've got some pretty uneven standards in our media.  That's not a good thing, and I don't think the answer is to have no standards (not saying that's your position), so we need to figure out where to draw our lines.  There is, I think, in general a gap between video games and other media, and I'd say that a lot of what kids get exposed to these days probably isn't for the best.

Talking about TMNT, the 2003 one (which was inspired more by the original Mirage comics, and has a more brief nods to the infamously 90-edgy Image run) is, at times, quite a bit darker, and certainly less silly than large chunks of the 2012 one. This is a big part of why it was so divisive. The violence? Well, the running gag with Stockman was every time he failed or unsuccessfully tried to betray the Shredder, the next time we see him he'd have one less body part. a lost eye, a lost limb. Eventually he was literally a brain, spine and eyeball in a jar. Then he became a zombie with rotting flesh. That episode got banned in the U.S. Which is a shame, because it was really good (not because of the zombie thing, but because of his flashbacks, which made the whole story very bittersweet). Lessee, then there was the Loftcraft episode (that also had zombies) where one of the Turtles (Leo?) saw a vision of Splinter dying....then there was the episode where the Turtles were in a dream where all of their friends and allies died one after another (including Mikey's cat! ), then there was the episode where Karai seemingly killed Mikey, Ralph, Donnie and Splinter, and we didn't see how they survived until part 2....there was the one where Leo cut the Shredder's head off (he got better)....then there was the Lost Season, which DID eventually air in the U.S., where the demon Shredder from feudal Japan (who ALSO had an army of zombies) defeated Karai, torn off lairs of her clothes, and said he wanted to keep her as a "servant girl".  Did I mention he looked just her adoptive father? She also gets stabbed and has to rest at April's apartment for a while (she was a good guy at the time, kinda) [EDIT] Oh snap, I forgot the time Agent Bishop got impaled on a meat hook (he also got better). Then there was "Same as it Never Was", which was basically Days of Future Past mixed with that mecha fight from Matrix Revolutions. All but two characters die horribly and the whole thing ends with Donnie running a sonic drill the size of a Zamboni through the Shredder's face....onscreen. *phew* How was that?

There's some pretty messed up stuff in there, but once again, I say because it has been done doesn't mean it should be done again.  Your point seems to be, 'we're already giving kids access to all kinds of stuff,' and that's fair enough.  Yet, I'm not sure that's a good thing, and when parents pay attention (not often enough, granted), that's the kind of stuff that tends to make them not want their kids consuming a certain type of material.  We don't want comics consigned to that bin.

On the other hand, I'm not against every type of edgy content.  I think good measures of what can be done and done well are the Timmverse shows, if we're going to talk in TV terms.  They told complex, compelling stories, and they did so while keeping them clean, limiting the violence, and never talking down to their audience.  What's more, they still had challenging, impactful stories.  I'll come back to this point after I address your other comments.

I also watched Buffy when I was elementary and high school, and everything that was in Identity Crisis was in Buffy. but that's the rub, isn't it? That was the later seasons. The early seasons were fairly innocuous fare, comparable to say, Are You Afraid of the Dark or Goosebumps. I just described the more violent parts of the 2003 TMNT, but that was like 5% of a show that ran for 8 seasons. How do you know if the episode you're gonna watch just go happens to be one of the more violent ones? It's kinda like that in the comics too. I pretty sure the actual ratio of issues Johns has wrote where gore happens is a 50% split at best. But that's one of the things we remember him for.

While I think that no-one should ever read Identity Crisis, that has very little to do with age appropriateness.    I think that there's a pretty big difference between high school kids, who are old enough, if not mature enough, to be reading most of this stuff, and, say, my friend's 8 year old, who loves comics, but who I wouldn't dream of giving most of the modern books I've seen. 

I also think there is MUCH more inconsistency of material and tone in comics than in a TV show.  For example, five or six issues ago in Aquaman, the hero (unwittingly) had sex with his wife's (fiance, DARN IT DC!) sister. and some folks get murdered in grisly fashion  Say, two issues later everyone has a lovely time at the fair.  I read several of the New 52 books for several arcs, and while not every issue had something objectionable in it (we're not talking about Garth Ennis here), not a single one of the runs I read was something that I'd be comfortable giving to a kid in its entirety.  Some of them have sections that are fine, but even that brings us back to my earlier point:  The universe as a whole and even the books as a whole aren't accessbile to younger audiences.

Bringing it back to comics (too late!) The thing you got to remember, Benton, about those relatively wholesale Silver Age comics you remember more fondly. Nobody wanted to make them that way. That era of comics was notoriously censored. The entire reason the superhero genre became so popular was basically because the Comics Code Authority was clamping down on horror and crime comics. Criminals weren't allowed to be shown in an sympathetic light (compare that to say....Brian Azzarello or Garth Ennis' body of work). Authority figures like the police were never to be shown in a negative light (so something like Civil War with its "Cape Killer" units or the X-Men's "MRD's" were right out of the question!) Stan Lee got all of the flak just for depicting drug use in a Spidey comic....and it was depicted entirely in a negative light. As in full-on South Park "Drugs R' Bad". It wasn't Woodstock or anything. Peter David has nothing nice to say about the Comics Code. When someone asked him about it being dissolved he complained that they would not let him have an on-screen same-sex kiss....the reason it ticked him off was because one of the characters was J'onn J'onnz shapeshifted into a female, so in his eyes it "didn't count". (I actually have that issue. It's the same issue that all but outright said that Wonder Woman and all of the Amazon's had sex with each other on Paradise Island). So just think, if all those disgruntled comic writers had their way, they would have made the books as raunchy and violent as they wanted decades ago, and you could have been turned off back then. You entire life could have gone in a different direction. I'm seeing it now. You play the harpsichord in a major orchestra and are a Pierre du Cinema buff (I'm sure I'm butchering that).

I see what you're saying, SS, but I'm not sure that I really see that this is relevant to the point I'm arguing.  I think you are seeing something in what I said that I did not intend.   I never said that we should go back to the Silver Age or the CC.  The CC was extremely restrictive in the Silver Age, and the resultant stories weren't nearly as cool as what came later.  As for remembering the Silver Age so fondly, well, personally, give me the Bronze Age and the looser restrictions any day, but that's neither here nor there.  I'm not suggesting that there should be censorship.  I mentioned the Silver and Bronze Ages to illustrate the accessibility of the medium in the days of its health and success.  Specifically, that's the period where wider demographic groups (kids, teens, and even adults) began reading comics and where they began to acquire readers who would follow them for years.  I don't have any particular feelings on the score of censorship, though I'm uncomfortable with aggressive, top-down censorship.  I think a ratings system is fine, insofar as it goes.

I'm saying that DC and Marvel can't survive without bringing in new readers, and the only possible and sustainable source of new readers is young people, and I'm not talking about high school or even junior high.  High school kids, for the most part, aren't going to start reading comics unless they're already invested in the culture in one way or another.  I'm talking about younger kids, kids my niece's (8) and nephew's (10) ages, a demographic that is perfectly primed for everything that superheroes do, but who are being almost entirely ignored by the big two as they weep about their declining sales.  The only way to bring them in is to write books that are accessible to them, in many ways, physically, morally, and, as Spade pointed out, financially. 

As for how to do it because 'everyone hates constraints so much,' well folks do it all the time in other mediums, like the Timmverse shows already mentioned.  You can also hire folks that want to tell the types of stories you want to publish, your Ty Templetons and your Jeff Parkers.  You can do a lot without brandishing the censorship club.  Even so, I don't think we'd suffer much for having some of the extremes of certain creators reined in.  Often times, as, I think you yourself said, such things tend to lead to more creative and better writing.  Still, that's neither here nor there.  Editors always exercise a certain amount of restraint over their creative teams in order to get the type of books they want to publish.  'No, you can't draw Wonder Woman topless, no you can't make Squirrel Girl the new Captain America...'  This is a question of degrees, not kind.

But the point here is not that we need some type of censorship.  In fact, I imagine that might even end up being counterproductive.  No, the point is that what the industry is doing is not working, clearly, and I can only see one way it can be saved.  A big part of that is putting out books that kids want to, and will be allowed to, read.  Until and unless the big two come to that realization and stop hitching their collective stars to the same, ever-dwindling market of aging fanboys, they'll continue their slide into oblivion. 

If I had my druthers, for example, if I were running one of these companies, I'd put out an entire line of books pitched at about the Timm-verse level, accessible from both ends of the age range, and I'd put them where kids are, in Walmart, at the grocery store, at Toys 'R Us, etc.  I'd develop as many shows as possible that actually matched the comics and build some synergy.  However, I'm not in charge, and neither of the big two show any signs of waking up.  They continue to do the same things while desperately flailing about, hoping they can stop their slow death without actually changing anything.  It makes sense, I suppose.  Doing anything really drastic would be a big risk.  You might alienate your existing customers, and it might not work.  Still, I can't see any other way forward.

[HarryTrotter]

Like a friend of mine once said: I dont see why they complain about games,we grew up on Mortal Kombat,and look how great we turned out.But Im not really in the loop there either,so I leave that to others.
Sad truth is,we live in a world where watching the news is a lot scarier then consuming any work of fiction.So I agree with SS there that we should give kids more credit.But Im not saying comics should be realistic like that ofc.
Just for reference,I read Hitman when I was around 9-10 and it hasnt scarred me for life or anything.But it was a different time back then,I guess.
And as much as its not wise in the long run,you cant really blame the Big 2 for making their comics T+,since something like 90% of their audience are over 20.Ofc,it is possible to attract old and new readers.Like say,Ultimate Spiderman did.

[Silver Shocker]

A violent end to the big bad, conducted with some restraint, isn't necessarily something to freak out about. 

That is a good point, and one that for whatever reason I didn't really touch on. A lot of times it's the villain that meets a grisly end (just look at the original TMNT movies, or any number of Disney animated films like Lion King, Aladdin or Snow White) I think everyone involved including the children understands that this makes it more of a cautionary tale. Never understand what was up with the original Grimm's Fairy Tales, though. Those were messed the heck up. I understand it's to scare kids so they won't misbehave, but still.

On a related note, I never did elaborate on Pokemon, is which is typically as tame as you can get and still be an "action" series, but all of the darker violent stuff, again, involved bad guys getting their comeuppance (all of one or two notable instances in the franchise that were uncharacteristically dark) and the Ghost-type Pokemon, which again, files under cautionary tale, with some of the weirder stuff just being repackaged Japanese folklore, and in at least one instance, being edited out of the North American version due to a reference to Hell

There's some pretty messed up stuff in there, but once again, I say because it has been done doesn't mean it should be done again.

Well, seasons 3-5 (arguably the darkest and most violent ones, and the source of most of the examples I gave) were written by the Chris Yost. As in the guy who started his X-Men by blowing up a schoolbus full of young X-Men students. And for the record, that TMNT show was one of the only good things he ever wrote. I'm actually a little afraid to rewatch his seasons in case I ended up hating them because I notice all his worst traits as a writer.

Your point seems to be, 'we're already giving kids access to all kinds of stuff,' and that's fair enough. Yet, I'm not sure that's a good thing, and when parents pay attention (not often enough, granted), that's the kind of stuff that tends to make them not want their kids consuming a certain type of material.  We don't want comics consigned to that bin.

Actually that first bit isn't what I wanted to express at all. More than anything I really did want to know your thoughts since I was pretty sure you didn't watch much of the show. I'd seen you talk about the current show, and I hardly need to ask your thoughts on the Timm DC shows (which for the record, were my real ambassador to the greater DC lore, more than any comic at the time) since you've praised them mainly times. It's been said before (and I think I agree) that in many ways the Timm cartoons (especially JLU, which to me was their best stuff) was superior to the comic counterparts that came out at the same time and since. I saw Superfriends  way too late to appreciate it much (as in, reruns that aired alongside Justice League) and I thought that show kinda sucked in comparison. Even Flash makes fun of Superfriends in the first JL arc.

I will admit I get a bit defensive even time you say "doesn't mean we should" just because it sounds a bit judgmental, and like Spade I've never bought the "violent video games turn children into criminals" business because that's been touted in one form or another since my father's days and by and large it's been debunked. But that's the nice thing about lengthy discussions that aren't just angry shouting matches. There's a greater bigger to take in context.

In terms of TMNT? Ever since Nickolodeon bought the property (which really, Micheal Bay or not, was the best thing to happen to the franchise since the 2003 tv revival) TMNT's been everywhere, but honestly, I don't know if kids even watched the 2003 show. I never saw people outside me and my family and people online ever talk about it, even with toys on store shelves. It's not like today, where Turtle mania is here just like it was in the early 90s. But I never heard people complain about the violence per see. What people said was it was a double standard because the dubbed anime on the same Fox Kids tv block (dubbed by the same company making TMNT to boot) was censored to high heaven, with Marines using squirt guns, but here's an American cartoon, and it's "Guns! Crime! Stuff blowing up!" and older fans cried "double standard". I never heard people say it was too violent for the kids, like you said, it was another discussion about the standards are all over the place and not consistent.

You talked about the parenting. And that's a really good point. I grew up watching Canadian tv, and there was this really good PSA commercial spot that aired all the time, where a talking tv would tell kids that it's important to talk about your parents about "all the kind of stuff you see on tv" (and perhaps most appropriately, it showed a clip from the season 2 finale of Reboot, another really good example because that show went from fairly innocuous to way darker, way more violent, and a good deal more risque and broader comedy wise (with everything from Evil Dead to Austin Powers getting parodied on a regular basis) after the creators got free of the censors. Incidentally, you know who responsible for the "darkening" of those later seasons of Reboot? I kid you not, Dan Didio!

Yeah, so any way, parents helping their kids pick out comics is definitely a good direction to go. Especially since the covers alone really going to give you a good indication of whether Marvel or DC are going to randomly turn "T for Teen" into R-rated violence like they sometimes do. I've said for a while, comics are so niche they get away with way more because the media gives way more coverage to movies, tv, and even video games to a lesser degree. So Marvel Studios, as in the movies, embraces the nice, safe, everyone can enjoy it PG-13, DC just said "make everything like Nolan's Batman" because that made money, and for whatever reason (Micheal Bay?) Transformers decided to play to the lowest common denominator. Strangely, I predicted a year ago that the Killing Joke movie would ruffle mainstream feathers but as far as I know, that totally didn't happen. The only people who complained were the fans because DC added 30 minutes of filler and Bruce Timm was shipping Babs and Bruce again.

On the other hand, I'm not against every type of edgy content.  I think good measures of what can be done and done well are the Timmverse shows, if we're going to talk in TV terms.  They told complex, compelling stories, and they did so while keeping them clean, limiting the violence, and never talking down to their audience.  What's more, they still had challenging, impactful stories.  I'll come back to this point after I address your other comments.

I do think The Bruce Timm stuff hit that sweet spot. Young Justice was probably fine too. I think Brave and the Bold was an interesting example, because that show was so devoted to light-hearted, silver age, almost Adam West, like material, that when they did do stuff like the Siege of Starro where an recurring hero died, or the Darkseid episode, or that one horrifying dark cold open with the Spectre, it stood out that much more. And then there was the episode where the Birds of Prey sang a song about the male heroes' sexual inadequacy, which appropriately, was written by Gail Simone. And again, that's another example where the episode was banned in the U.S. It was damn funny though.

While I think that no-one should ever read Identity Crisis, that has very little to do with age appropriateness.    I think that there's a pretty big difference between high school kids, who are old enough, if not mature enough, to be reading most of this stuff, and, say, my friend's 8 year old, who loves comics, but who I wouldn't dream of giving most of the modern books I've seen. 

Lol. To bring it back to trying to get new, younger readers, I think it really might also have a lot to do with comics being so inconvenient. Even if you read them on say, a tablet, and don't have to worry about long boxes piling as far as the eye can see, they're a massive time-sink compared to going to the theater, watching Captain America, enjoying it, walking out, and waiting for the next one. And when you have such good adaptations (and also DC's versions, unfortunately) it might not seem worth it to take your chances with the comics. 

That's why I'm surprised that comics based on, say, DC Super Hero Girls, or Teen Titans/ TT Go! don't work out better than they seem to. With comics like that, you gotta imagine it's a safe bet. If your a kid, and you liked the show, chances are you'd like the comic. Noticed I didn't say Young Justice or Beware the Batman or Green Lantern because Cartoon Network screwed those shows over like no one's business.

They also say DC does things to turn off the fans of the cartoons. A lot of people got snarky and pointed out that the original Teen Titans cartoon pulled in more viewers than the amount of people who actually buy DC comics, so making a Starfire (Red Hood and Outlaws SF) who is a total turn off to fans of the cartoon version is a missed opportunity to get that synergy. There's a really good Shortpacked comic that illustrates this, but since it involved THAT version of Starfire, it's kinda NSFW, so I won't link to it here. I haven't read the later stuff with SF, but even a surface look seems to indicate they split the difference and made her a kinda "Harley Quinn-lite" (and let's not even get started on Harley Quinn! We'd be here all day!) Personally I think the JL vs Teen Titans actually did a really good job of bringing us the "Real Starfire". She wasn't oversexualized, she wasn't a wacky cartoon character; she was basically all the best positive tropes of the character adapted. As such, I think it's probably the best adapted version of the character.

By the same token, along with other people, Neil Adams himself criticized Warner Bros ect for making Hal the movie Green Lantern instead of the guy who appeared on the successful cartoon. And you know what, I agree. No matter how he came off in this or that comic, in JLU, John Stewart was the man. Hal on the other hand, even after Johns tried to make him cool, is still some boring white guy in a sea of white guy superheroes.

If I had my druthers, for example, if I were running one of these companies, I'd put out an entire line of books pitched at about the Timm-verse level, accessible from both ends of the age range, and I'd put them where kids are, in Walmart, at the grocery store, at Toys 'R Us, etc.  I'd develop as many shows as possible that actually matched the comics and build some synergy.  However, I'm not in charge, and neither of the big two show any signs of waking up.  They continue to do the same things while desperately flailing about, hoping they can stop their slow death without actually changing anything.  It makes sense, I suppose.  Doing anything really drastic would be a big risk.  You might alienate your existing customers, and it might not work.  Still, I can't see any other way forward.

I would have thought having kid-friendly comics based on stuff like DC cartoons for Free Comic Book Day would have helped, since they've doing that for a over a decade (and I've definitely seen people bring their kids in on FCBD and have them pick such a comic) But I guess it just doesn't make enough of a difference?

Disney bought Marvel because it valued the movie and cartoon money. Maybe they need to try something new. Here's an idea. In Japan, every Pokemon movie to this day ran in theaters alongside major American and Japanese competition (probably not for long, consider how much less money they made on the one from last year, but I digress). Every ticket into the movie got you a Pokemon card and/or a Pokemon to download directly into their Pokemon game. Why not give away Marvel and DC comics in the theater with the movie? That would get comics in the hands of a boatload more people, and they wouldn't even have to find a comic book store.

[HarryTrotter]

Didnt know Yost was writing TMNT 2003.But it does put things in different perspective.And to be fair,violence was more heavily implied then shown.We just see the shadows when Leo decapitates Shredder.And camera always panned out before something gruesome happens.Cthullu epsiode is still scary as it was when I first saw it,but its actually one of my favorites.Urban legend is that by the end of it,viewership was so low that they could have gotten away with anything because nobody was watching it anyway.At one point one of the Dark Turtles(they need to bring them back btw) remarks: This book sucked eggs! Major thing by 4Kids standards.
And again,seeing that kids today watch Happy Tree Friends,this is still nothing.

[Silver Shocker]

Eh.....Ash from Pokemon has uttered a "this sucks" once or twice. I think that might have been post-4kids dub, but still.
And when the viewership was dropping, they slashed the budget, made it lighter and softer, and doubled down on the gimmicks (Now they're in the future! Now they're in Cyberspace! ect) at the TMNT 25th anniversary panel, they talked about the show, and someone asked if 4Kids gave them a hard time about the content, and they said "no, we were pretty free to do what we wanted". And yes, it wasn't nearly as violent as it sounded when I describe it, but it was still far violent than the 87 cartoon or movies. For one thing, the foot soldiers were actually people this time around.
Though the original movies got a great nod in the Lost Season. The Demon Shredder takes one look at a Foot and is like "Teenagers? Really?" And surprisingly that was the first time we got a solid idea who was filling out the ranks of those foot soldiers.
That's another little kinda disappointment about the Nicktoons show. They started with real people as the Foot...then introduced the robots later, and then after that it was pretty much robot Foot Soldiers all the time.

[HarryTrotter]

I have watched Pokemon in years,so I cant say.But like you said,compare it to other things 4Kids did at that time.And I still consider it MY version of the Turtles.I watched the first season of 2012 version and it just didnt click with me.

To get back to the topic(what was it again?),I havent really noticed anything that bad in post-Rebirth titles.Speaking strictly of DC.

[Silver Shocker]

Well, it was supposed to be failure to attract new readers, but somehow got sidetracked big time into a broad discussion of cartoon violence.
Actually, the Nicktoons Turtles got a lot better in time (so did Pokemon, for that matter) TMNT kinda hit its stride about halfway through season 2, culminating in a REALLY good (and quite dark) S2 finale. AAAND they flushed all that down the toilet for the first half of S3, where they spent almost the half the season at the farmhouse and the creators went overboard with the horror homage tropes and Mikey "humor". Then it got really good again, then they went into space for S4 (which was a LOT better than the farmhouse was), where David Tennant stole the show as the Fugitoid, and now we're all just patiently waiting for this show's version of City At War.

No, to my knowledge, DC hasn't done something violent since.....I dunno, Forever Evil? I'm sure they have, however, done something stupid (they always do, don't they? It's still at zero, isn't it?)

That actually reminds me: I finished Action Comics last night. "Mr. OZ" actually got up off his throne and did something....for 1 panel. But the cliffhanger implies he'll have a bigger role next issue so to quote Alpha Quintesson from every episode of Transformers Energon: "Something interesting might happen!"

[HarryTrotter]

Its been 2 day.They forgot to continue Prez,even thou Dan Didio promised there will be six more issue.20 days before that it was the Killing joke thing.

Yeah,this decompression thing is kinda testing my patience.
And just to mention that,Flash is also to a pretty good start.Okay,the whole thing is more or less Flash-island(as in Spider-Island,get it),but its enjoyable.

[BentonGrey]

Spade, I haven't encountered anything too bad in the post Rebirth books, but then again, I'm only reading Aquaman AND there have only been, what, like three issues?  Give them time.  They'll do something terrible. 

Your point seems to be, 'we're already giving kids access to all kinds of stuff,' and that's fair enough. Yet, I'm not sure that's a good thing, and when parents pay attention (not often enough, granted), that's the kind of stuff that tends to make them not want their kids consuming a certain type of material.  We don't want comics consigned to that bin.

Actually that first bit isn't what I wanted to express at all. More than anything I really did want to know your thoughts since I was pretty sure you didn't watch much of the show. I'd seen you talk about the current show, and I hardly need to ask your thoughts on the Timm DC shows (which for the record, were my real ambassador to the greater DC lore, more than any comic at the time) since you've praised them mainly times. It's been said before (and I think I agree) that in many ways the Timm cartoons (especially JLU, which to me was their best stuff) was superior to the comic counterparts that came out at the same time and since. I saw Superfriends  way too late to appreciate it much (as in, reruns that aired alongside Justice League) and I thought that show kinda sucked in comparison. Even Flash makes fun of Superfriends in the first JL arc.

Ahh, my apologies, SS, I thought you were angling to make a point there.  I see now.   Yes, I imagine my love for the Timmverse stuff is pretty well known these days!    I think it's definitely safe to say that the Timmverse 'toons told better stories than the comics during the same time.  In fact, I'd put their storytelling against almost any comparable run of the comics.  Superfriends was magic when I was a little kid, and it is what established my love for these characters.  It's pretty hard to watch these days, though.  Yeesh. 

Anyway, both of those shows demonstrate the power of other media, especially TV, to sow the seeds for fandom and comic book reading.  However, and this is central to my argument, such successes, unsupported by any significant efforts on the part of the comic companies themselves, can't turn things around by themselves.

I will admit I get a bit defensive even time you say "doesn't mean we should" just because it sounds a bit judgmental, and like Spade I've never bought the "violent video games turn children into criminals" business because that's been touted in one form or another since my father's days and by and large it's been debunked. But that's the nice thing about lengthy discussions that aren't just angry shouting matches. There's a greater bigger to take in context.

Well, I'm not trying to sound judgmental, SS; I don't want to give you the wrong impression.  I do want to express concern and uncertainty.  Of course video games aren't turning kids into criminals, no more than comic books were doing so in the 50s during the Seduction of the Innocent scare.  That is a ridiculous argument, and one I already rejected.  No, I am not worried about any kind of direct causation.  I am, however, concerned that our culture is not necessarily the healthiest of environments, and I wonder what might contribute (not be a sole cause) to that.  It seems a rougher, darker place than it was when I was younger, and I'm definitely seeing trends in the young people I encounter in my profession that give me pause. 

No, I'm not fool enough to believe in any direct correlation, but I have observed tendencies in my own experiences that cause me concern.  When I've played extremely violent games or consumed very violent media of one form or another (or morally problematic materials) for an extended period of time, I have noticed a...desensitizing effect, for lack of a better term.  Does that mean I'm going to go out and do something awful?  Of course not, I've still got free will, and I still have the values and habits I've developed in my life.  If I'm not already the type of person to do something terrible, playing a game or reading a book isn't going to make me do so.  Yet, I wonder if it might make it easier to ignore something troublesome or even to rationalize something worse.  I don't have any answers, and I don't have the wisdom to say, 'THIS is too much and THAT is good and THIS is bad' on the large scale.  I do think that it's something we should probably be paying attention to, though, as a culture.  One thing I am sure about is that, whether or not it does any harm, it certainly does no good to have kids exposed to violence and sexual content they aren't ready for.

Incidentally, you know who responsible for the "darkening" of those later seasons of Reboot? I kid you not, Dan Didio!

Freaking DiDio! 

Strangely, I predicted a year ago that the Killing Joke movie would ruffle mainstream feathers but as far as I know, that totally didn't happen. The only people who complained were the fans because DC added 30 minutes of filler and Bruce Timm was shipping Babs and Bruce again.

Urg...I really, intensely dislike that trend.  That's just not right.   

I would have thought having kid-friendly comics based on stuff like DC cartoons for Free Comic Book Day would have helped, since they've doing that for a over a decade (and I've definitely seen people bring their kids in on FCBD and have them pick such a comic) But I guess it just doesn't make enough of a difference?

Disney bought Marvel because it valued the movie and cartoon money. Maybe they need to try something new. Here's an idea. In Japan, every Pokemon movie to this day ran in theaters alongside major American and Japanese competition (probably not for long, consider how much less money they made on the one from last year, but I digress). Every ticket into the movie got you a Pokemon card and/or a Pokemon to download directly into their Pokemon game. Why not give away Marvel and DC comics in the theater with the movie? That would get comics in the hands of a boatload more people, and they wouldn't even have to find a comic book store.

A lot of your other comments really come down to this right here, SS.  This ties in with DC shooting themselves in the foot with synergy, this ties in to cross media promotion, and everything else.  You're hitting it all right here.  They've been doing this kind of stuff (often poorly, as you pointed out) for decades.  They had comics based on Batman: TAS, JLU, and all kinds of other shows, all of them age appropriate and accessible, right?  Yet, we're still here, and they're still sliding into oblivion.  So, why doesn't it work?  Well, part of it is that they've often been bad at it.  They turn Starfire into a...well...I don't know how I could describe her that would be fit for polite company, but they don't take advantage of the love the character has among young fans.  They don't capitalize on Stewart's popularity.  The examples are many.  Yet, that's really just a drop in the bucket, and they've done things right sometimes too.

The reason none of this stuff ever works, at least not on the large scale and for the long term, is that they never do anything ON the large scale.  They put out one or two kid friendly books based on a cartoon, and maybe they give a comic away in a cereal box.  That doesn't change the larger problem, the dual facts that 99% of what they publish is not accessible, content-wise, to kids OR the fact that they are not physically accessible for kids.  Until you have a comic universe that kids can get in to AND you have comics where kids are (be it digitally or physically), and, let's face it, affordable by them as well, you're never going to bring in new readers in any numbers.  That's the problem.  It isn't that they aren't doing anything right, it's that they want to have their cake and eat it too.  They want to dabble in these little experiments to bring in new readers, but they don't actually want to change anything.  That just won't work.

[HarryTrotter]

Also,Im glad Abnett has been well recieved.And that DC doesnt have the No-marriage policy any more.

[trebean]

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/08/12/dc-beat-marvels-marketshare-in-july-2016-41-with-a-third-fewer-comics/
Related to an earlier discussion;for the first in quite a while DC has beaten Marvel in sales.But this was the Rebirth month and there was a bunch of #1,so a jump in sales was expected.I doubt that trend will continue thou.

If I remember right, June was the Rebirth Month. We're actually on the 2nd Month of Rebirth there. And I'm very sure judging from the speculated performance of Harley Quinn and All Star Batman and the lack of Civil War II Issues this month that trend might continue up till this month even and DC getting out more books. Plus, majority of those books are already at #3s and #4s and compared to pre-Rebirth. There aren't really much significant drops in sales, sure there's give and take a few thousand but there's nothing as drastic as say Iron Man's or Captain Marvel's sales which dropped by half at around issue #2. Heck, Titans actually rose from high 70K to 100K.

Now for the actual book themselves. I've been enjoying Superman a lot (Heck all of the Superman line if I'm honest. Even New Super-Man). Easily the weakest for me is Hitch's Justice League.

Though these talks about DC reaching the kid demographic... I guess depending on how JLAction does we might see something come up the horizon. DC's non-comic releases definitely has pulled in some fans into comics. I know a few people who read the Injustice Weekly Digital Comic mainly because they enjoyed the game and want to get caught up with the series. And while I do agree there's a real lack of all-ages friendly comics, I think it's to just to do with the current majority of people who actually buy/order comics, I doubt that DC or actually any company is willing to gamble that much customers just for a possible chance to gain a new demographic. I mean DC knows firsthand with how DC You bombed. Since we're also talking about all-ages comics. Whatever happened to Marvel Adventures? Marvel ticked off Darwyn Cooke bigtime when they left him out of that and now it's just gone? I remember reading it and it was pretty good. Just fun one-shot deal adventures featuring your favorite Marvel characters. Overall, coming from someone who really just got into comics a few years back, I really don't think it's a smart idea to just ignore your current demographic in favor of a new one that can possibly not even care for your product for various reasons(I mean you're not just competing with Marvel and other publishers here, you're competing with Video Games, Netflix, Toys, and a bunch of other crap), I can see there being a specific block of comics being dedicated to them like how Young Animal is supposed to be for the Alternative DC Comics, I remember there being a for-kids block of comics back then growing up. It was the Johnny DC Line and mostly featured comic tie-ins to Cartoon Network Shows (Which Boom and IDW are publishing right now so I doubt DC can bring those back) and of their own animated shows along with a few original stuff (like that Superfriends reboot and Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam) I can see that returning. Accessibility... I feel like that's more of a problem with Diamond and how there are really no Supermarkets or Local Bookstores that would really think to stock themselves now with comics. I mean there's always comixology, I've seen a few online ads. DC could always invest on making ads that would be considered eye catching for kids, DC has a pretty good track record on uploading their old comics on comixology (In fact I just finished up The Power of Shazam) and I know for a fact a lot of them would be considered pretty kid friendly, they just finished up uploading the entirety of their old Teen Titans Go! Comic (the comic tie-in of the original show), maybe they could try catching up fans of that new Teen Titans Go! Cartoon? I mean it has to have a pretty big viewer base seeing as how it fills up CN's schedule at times. It could get them interested with the more serious version of the team, it's definitely in the price range of something a parent would let a child have which is around $1 to $2 depending on how long they've been on comixology and if there's a sale (I mean sure $3 is cheaper than $4 but you know that's still too much, DC has comics at $1 on comixology they can definitely attract some new people by having them start out on the earlier cheaper comics)

[BentonGrey]

Though these talks about DC reaching the kid demographic... I guess depending on how JLAction does we might see something come up the horizon. DC's non-comic releases definitely has pulled in some fans into comics. I know a few people who read the Injustice Weekly Digital Comic mainly because they enjoyed the game and want to get caught up with the series. And while I do agree there's a real lack of all-ages friendly comics, I think it's to just to do with the current majority of people who actually buy/order comics, I doubt that DC or actually any company is willing to gamble that much customers just for a possible chance to gain a new demographic. I mean DC knows firsthand with how DC You bombed.

Right, their cross promotion has brought in SOME readers, but never enough, and most of them don't stay because there's not really anywhere to go once the thing that brought you in runs its course.  I bought my niece JLU comics, but once she finished those, I couldn't give her anything else DC. 

Yeah, it would definitely be a gamble, but at the same time, what is there really to risk?  If they keep on in this fashion, eventually they'll cease to exist, at least as they are now.  You know, you could build up to a full line of books little by little, but it would still take a concerted effort and a long range plan.  If there's one thing that the Big Two have proven, it's that they have no idea what they're doing long range.  Perhaps most importantly, any successful attempt to bring in new readers has got to put the books where kids are, as I've said.  Just putting out a kid friendly book isn't enough, as kids aren't reading comics in the first place.  You've got to penetrate the culture again, and that requires will and investment.

Since we're also talking about all-ages comics. Whatever happened to Marvel Adventures? Marvel ticked off Darwyn Cooke bigtime when they left him out of that and now it's just gone? I remember reading it and it was pretty good. Just fun one-shot deal adventures featuring your favorite Marvel characters. Overall, coming from someone who really just got into comics a few years back, I really don't think it's a smart idea to just ignore your current demographic in favor of a new one that can possibly not even care for your product for various reasons(I mean you're not just competing with Marvel and other publishers here, you're competing with Video Games, Netflix, Toys, and a bunch of other crap), I can see there being a specific block of comics being dedicated to them like how Young Animal is supposed to be for the Alternative DC Comics, I remember there being a for-kids block of comics back then growing up. It was the Johnny DC Line and mostly featured comic tie-ins to Cartoon Network Shows (Which Boom and IDW are publishing right now so I doubt DC can bring those back) and of their own animated shows along with a few original stuff (like that Superfriends reboot and Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam) I can see that returning.

See, that's just it.  Marvel Adventures is a pretty perfect example of what I'm talking about.  It was, overall, pretty good.  It was even great in several spots.  One of my favorite Fantastic Four comics ever was from the MA run on the team.  They had, for a while, a whole subline of MA comics.  They had MA Iron Man, MA Hulk, MA Spider-Man, MA Avengers, all kinds of books, as well as a grab-bag book.  I've actually collected a lot of them because they're good, fun adventure stories without all the ugly baggage of modern comics.  In many of the books, they even did exactly what I'd like to see them do with a new comic line, retell some of the coolest stories from the Silver Age, but tell them with modern sensibilities.  The result was almost always enjoyable, other than a few grating elements in the portrayals where they were trying a bit too hard to be hip.

See, ideally, in pursuing a strategy like this, the Big Two wouldn't just ignore their current customers.  They'd put out books that could just be enjoyed by a wider audience.  If they phased in a new style of book and gradually phased out or downsized the current style, a transition could definitely work.

Also, I never knew that Darwyn Cooke had been interested in MA...my gosh, how amazing would that have been?  I would have given my eye teeth to read a Cooke-run/drawn DCU title, but even a Marvel line would have been fantastic.  He's actually the perfect candidate to be in charge of something like this.  Too bad he's gone so soon, for this and many other reasons. 

Accessibility... I feel like that's more of a problem with Diamond and how there are really no Supermarkets or Local Bookstores that would really think to stock themselves now with comics. I mean there's always comixology, I've seen a few online ads. DC could always invest on making ads that would be considered eye catching for kids, DC has a pretty good track record on uploading their old comics on comixology (In fact I just finished up The Power of Shazam) and I know for a fact a lot of them would be considered pretty kid friendly, they just finished up uploading the entirety of their old Teen Titans Go! Comic (the comic tie-in of the original show), maybe they could try catching up fans of that new Teen Titans Go! Cartoon? I mean it has to have a pretty big viewer base seeing as how it fills up CN's schedule at times. It could get them interested with the more serious version of the team, it's definitely in the price range of something a parent would let a child have which is around $1 to $2 depending on how long they've been on comixology and if there's a sale (I mean sure $3 is cheaper than $4 but you know that's still too much, DC has comics at $1 on comixology they can definitely attract some new people by having them start out on the earlier cheaper comics)

Well, digital comics COULD save the industry, provided the content is there to support them and the advertising/cultural saturation does its job.  Comixology could have done it, but Amazon's gutting it has really hurt the progress of the digital comics.  We went from being able to buy a comic on our devices with one button press to having to go to the website and doing several more steps.  That's not necessarily a huge deal, but it isn't helping things either. 

As I keep saying though, you need a comprehensive approach.  Just putting comics on that site, or just putting out an age friendly book, or just putting comics in grocery stores, none of those things is going to save the day by itself.

[HarryTrotter]

Benton,like I said before,you need to check out Mark Waids Fantastic Four.
On the topic of sales,I hope the trend continues because competition is good for buisness.And it might motivate Marvel to get their act together.Buuut it will probably just motivate them to ship more chromium,weapon etched,3D variant covers.
IIRC Jim Lee said on his Facebook that DC is planing and expansion on the Chinese market,so that would probably bring in more readers then any cross promotion.If DC actually goes thru with that;it doesnt sound like a cheap endevour.
Hitch pretty much tries to go for Warren Ellis-lite feel with JL.
Speaking of Cooke and DC,his Spirit was pretty good.

[trebean]

Also, I never knew that Darwyn Cooke had been interested in MA...my gosh, how amazing would that have been?  I would have given my eye teeth to read a Cooke-run/drawn DCU title, but even a Marvel line would have been fantastic.  He's actually the perfect candidate to be in charge of something like this.  Too bad he's gone so soon, for this and many other reasons. 

Interested? Darwyn Cooke pitched the idea to Marvel! There's a reason why there's a severe lack of Darwyn Cooke in Marvel  after the title debuted.

[HarryTrotter]

The conclusion to I am Gotham felt just a bit rushed.Alfred suiting up as Batman was awesome,thou.It was still a pretty good arc.
They really should have done a Hitman Rebirth.But JT Krul(being a moron) hated the character and didnt want to reintroduce him in Bloodlines(2).Say thanks to DC,kids.

[trebean]

The conclusion to I am Gotham felt just a bit rushed.Alfred suiting up as Batman was awesome,thou.It was still a pretty good arc.
They really should have done a Hitman Rebirth.But JT Krul(being a moron) hated the character and didnt want to reintroduce him in Bloodlines(2).Say thanks to DC,kids.

Garth Ennis is writing "Sixpack and Dogwelder Hard Travelling Heroes" so there's still hope. It releases this week, and he's also writing Dick Dastardly and Muttley for DC's Hanna Barbera Line.

[HarryTrotter]

Yeah,I know,thats what gave me some hope.That,and Garth Ennis being hip again because of the Preacher tv show.
Another old complain,but why did they recycle Bloodlines of all things,WITHOUT the only character people like in the whole mess?Oh yeah,because Krul found him an overexposed character like Cable and Wolverine and didnt want to write him.In his own words.Which is pure BS.Outside of his own series,Tommy had maybe 3-4 apperences in other books.

[GhostMachine]

I'm with Spade. The ending of I Am Gotham definitely did feel rushed. I also didn't like the revelation about how Gotham and Gotham Girl's powers work.

Supergirl Rebirth was pretty interesting, but now we've got yet another survivor of Krypton. Superman, Supergirl and Krypto should be it.

[HarryTrotter]

I guess that played out so they could collect Batman Rebirth and Batman 1-5 together in one volume.
Now we have Night of the Monster Men coming up.Strangly,thats one event Im okay with.Thou there was a mini series by Matt Wagner about Monster Men,so this also counts as reusing old ideas.
Speaking of which,looks like Hawkman/Adam Strange mini series has Rann/Thanagar war going on,again.

[trebean]

Anyone see the new solicits? New Talent Showcase looks neat, but I'd hardly call some of these new (especially the artists), more overlooked actually. Seems like Art Baltazar & Franco are doing a new All Ages Miniseries, Super Powers! (Which coincidentally, Tom Scioli is doing a Super Powers backup for one of the Young Animal Books). Superman #10 looks pretty sweet, Superman and son teams up with Batman and his son. Hopefully this finally leads into the new Supersons book.

[HarryTrotter]

Just to throw it out,Hellblazer #1 was pretty disappointing.
It is a sort of return to the original form,with John back in London,and a return of a few supporting characters.But it fails to really evoke any emotion.It kinda goes for some Delano-lite version,and pretty much fails at it.
Shoutouts are painfull and come down to: Hey,remember when?Remember Chas?Remember Mercury?Remember when we switched bodies so you can have sex?Remember your wife?Remember all those better stories we are trying to evoke to hide the fact this one is mediocre at best?

[GhostMachine]

I guess that played out so they could collect Batman Rebirth and Batman 1-5 together in one volume.
Now we have Night of the Monster Men coming up.Strangly,thats one event Im okay with.Thou there was a mini series by Matt Wagner about Monster Men,so this also counts as reusing old ideas.
Speaking of which,looks like Hawkman/Adam Strange mini series has Rann/Thanagar war going on,again.

Both of Wagner's mini-series were re-dos of Golden Age Batman stories. The Monk was from Detective Comics #31 and 32, and Professor Strange and the Monster Men were in Batman #1. (Both stories are in Batman Chronicles Volume 1.)

[HarryTrotter]

Okay,thats still the second modern reimagining.
Is the event actually going to happen?I havent see any news about it since it was announced.

[trebean]

Okay,thats still the second modern reimagining.
Is the event actually going to happen?I havent see any news about it since it was announced.

It's already solicited. It's not much an event as it's a breather for the current creative teams since Steve Orlando is co-writing it. It's a 6 Issue Crossover between Batman, Detective Comics, and Nightwing (2 Issues a piece for all series). It's not much a modern re-imagining again of Batman and the Monster Men it's more or less a Dr Hugo Strange Arc since his Monster Men and his Monster Men serum has made appearances beyond those stories.

[HarryTrotter]

Okay,thats still the second modern reimagining.
Is the event actually going to happen?I havent see any news about it since it was announced.

It's already solicited. It's not much an event as it's a breather for the current creative teams since Steve Orlando is co-writing it. It's a 6 Issue Crossover between Batman, Detective Comics, and Nightwing (2 Issues a piece for all series). It's not much a modern re-imagining again of Batman and the Monster Men it's more or less a Dr Hugo Strange Arc since his Monster Men and his Monster Men serum has made appearances beyond those stories.

Okay,its a crossover,you know what I meant.

[Silver Shocker]

So I'm a little late in bringing this up, but that cliffhanger in Action Comics that made it seem like "Mr. Oz" was actually going to do something in the plot? Kinda a letdown. He does more in the issue than he has up to this point (which was to say, nothing) but still not much to talk about. Issue was still fun, current arc is over so the next one will focus on stuff that got downplayed in this arc to focus on fighting Doomsday, so I'm looking forward to that.