DCUG - Canceled

[steamteck]

Personally it encouraged me to look more into stuff rather than made me complacent. I would have never know lots of these meshes existed if not for DCUG.  I think IPS  means well but he sometimes loses sight of the individual trees worrying too much about the forest. i appreciate your efforts and they've renewed my interest in mainstream stuff which had pretty much disappeared. I understand your mod is a personal vision not a community project which should pass political correctness and I as a lowely user appreciate your efforts and sharing with us. The amount of work you must have done is mind boggling.

IPS is often the moral voice of the community but I think he just need to step back and take a few deep breathes on this one.

[BentonGrey]

You know IPS, you say that Kk proved your point, and in a way he did, but I'd say that he proved mine too.  Kk is a fellow who is a lot like I was when I first came to the community.  I was all spit and vinegar, and I wanted nothing more than to jump into all this cool stuff that was being created head first.  Unfortunately, I quickly discovered that making a mod was a GREAT deal of work.  I worked hard, tried to learn scripting, but between school and life, I couldn't really do it.  So, I made a lot of noise, and eventually the project I was trying to work on died without anything coming of it.  I took, but I didn't give anything back.  Well, years passed and I had a bit more time and a bit more perseverance (being unemployed for a few months helped ), and I started on a project that actually did go somewhere, but only because people like M25 and Epimethee made it so much easier for me with EZScript.  What I did at first I would have done whether EZScript existed or not, because I wasn't motivated and didn't have the time to put the work into the project that it needed.  It is now as it has always been, if someone is motivated to seek out new content and to contribute to the community, they will.  If they are not, then they won't, and it is that simple.  Making things easier for people to engage and create will, I believe (and I am far from alone in this belief), only strengthen the community. 

You continue to imply that the people who support my project are just out for their own enjoyment, just after their "toys," but it is just possible that they believe in what I have done.  Bearded is a creator, and he is perhaps the most excited about the possibilities that the DCUG presents, but he isn't alone.  I have gotten messages from a lot of our members, some of them pillars of the community, who agree with what I've done.  I won't name them here, because if they wanted to get involved in this they'd have posted on the thread, but suffice to say that I am not really afraid that I have offended the community.  You keep talking about the creators, and saying that I have (however unwittingly) misused their art.  Well, we are several weeks past the release, and this has not been a quiet debate.  Yet I have received no complaints and numerous commendations.  It would seem that you are the only one truly troubled by this.

Nevertheless, you are troubled by it, and I will not misuse your work.  Fire and Ice will be removed, and I think the VX_Wonder_Woman kfs I'm using are yours, is that correct?  Do you happen to know what FX you made that was included in EZFX?  Not all FX have readmes, and I don't wish to miss anything.  I am truly sorry that we could not reach an understanding IPS, and I am also sorry to lose your work.  I have great respect for you as an artist.

I think that we may consider this conversation finished. 

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Um, IPS, Benton was very straight forward about what he was doing in the beginning.  I doubt most people who have stuff he uses in this mod were at all confused in the purpose of it.  It wasn't even originally supposed to have all these campaign and scenarios in its original release in the first place.

Base mods like this one are very common in the modding world and no one has any problem with them.  In fact they are considered full mods, making your distinction of used in and distributed with quite wrong.  What Benton has essentially done is created a sandbox mod for people to play in his vision of the DC world.  This is something fun, something that people will enjoy, and far from destroying creativity or modding this kind of mod tends to have the opposite effect, especially for people unwilling or unable to make a full-sized mod on their own.

I'm sorry you don't like it, but you really should have spoken out when Benton first proposed the idea, not months and many hours of labor later.  Again, while this is unique in our own community, this kind of thing is fairly common in the broader modding world.  Actually FFX is an example of a base mod itself, yet because it does the same thing with coding and not with art you seem to have no problem with it, yet it serves the same general purposes and you have made no demands to remove any attributes/swaps not used in the actually included campaign, nor any protests that it will stifle coding creativity as folks will use the included custom attributes instead of building their own.  It has had much the opposite effect, in fact.

  by Benton, but I trust my points still hold.

[AfghanAnt]

tl;dr.

Is this a mod or a character/fxs pak with a couple of mission?

If it is character/fxs pak with missions, what was the point of adding so much other content (bloating the download) if you can only play as a few JLA members? When this idea was originally presented I thought it was going to be a massive mod where you were able to play as multiple combination of characters in given missions. How is this any different than making a bootleg mixtape from your personal favorite artists and making it available to the public with a new intro and packaging?

I think IPS  means well but he sometimes loses sight of the individual trees worrying too much about the forest.

IPS is often the moral voice of the community but I think he just need to step back and take a few deep breathes on this one.

I saw this and lol'ed for a good minute. Are you a FF content creator? If not you really can't tell someone who provides a lot of cool dren for you play with without receiving a nickel (or pence) in return to "step back". I think content creators have a right to say whatever they want about packaged content that includes their work. If someone asked for your money for a present for a friend and they wanted to get drugs but you didn't want your money spent that way, don't you think you have right to protest?

Also I think you are missing the whole point, steamteck. IPS is not looking at the forest, he's looking at other fruitful trees while you guys (FF users? No, users sounds bad, players! Yeah! That's the word) are like the people on the ground. While Benton did encourage you to get back into Mainstream stuff, he also limited your line of sight. You no longer see all the trees and think "that Wonder Apple looks good on that tree I'm going to get it" but rather "I should just go down to the Benton's store because I know he has Wonder Apples, Bat Oranges and Super everything else I may want when it comes to DC fruits".

Benton, while I don't have problem with what you did (I did put my stuff on the internet without password protection for a reason), I can understand how others could be upset. Amazing skins/meshes are often looked over because the easier to find ones are available. Is that your fault, no but it does make it harder for creators, past and present, to continue to live on when all the "ready-to-use" stuff is easily available in one place.  

If I ever stopped skinning, I would be hurt if my skins were forgotten because someone made a pak with C6 and IPS' work (sorry C6 and IPS just using you as an example, buds) and made it available without even considering maybe people want to use my "insert a skin I did here" but they don't know it is there because soon as they get to the forum people just direct them to the "all-in-one every mainstream character" pak.

Um, IPS, Benton was very straight forward about what he was doing in the beginning.  I doubt most people who have stuff he uses in this mod were at all confused in the purpose of it.  It wasn't even originally supposed to have all these campaign and scenarios in its original release in the first place.

I gave him the ok and I still not sure what the mod is.

[Vertex]

I feel I absolutely must chime in on this topic...

Its been often suggested I'm trying to monopolize the mesh side of things for this community for a long time. That somehow I have an agenda to take over and force everyone to use what I make instead of what's out there. Usually it's all in good joking fun, or put in a joke to keep it from being taken too harshly. Anyways my point is this...... HA HA wasn't me! I didn't do it, .... either that or I was too slow, but this is NOT my grand scheme to take over the worlld and I would just like that on record.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

and ffx does not exclude anyone's efforts.

I'd like to say for the record that this is not true.  We did indeed choose to leave some things out for various reasons, although it is rather rare.

I still disagree with the point.  In any mod based on these characters, you have to make a decision which one to use.  Sandbox style doesn't change that, nor does it change the appeal of trying out a new skin of a character, something which this mod actually would in theory make easier to do in some ways.

Anyway, I've pretty much said all I need to say at this point.

[AfghanAnt]

and ffx does not exclude anyone's efforts.

I'd like to say for the record that this is not true.  We did indeed choose to leave some things out for various reasons, although it is rather rare.

I still disagree with the point.  In any mod based on these characters, you have to make a decision which one to use.  Sandbox style doesn't change that, nor does it change the appeal of trying out a new skin of a character, something which this mod actually would in theory make easier to do in some ways.

Anyway, I've pretty much said all I need to say at this point.

Is this actually a sandbox mod though? From my understanding this seems more like add-on content and a couple of new missions. Also how is a sandbox mod any different than me setting up a torrent with my character folder for all to download (which everyone here frowns on)? So is it that we are frowning on the use of torrent over downloading zips or was the idea about not having everyone's work lumped together for quick downloads for noobs?

If this is just a no torrents thing, that's |3#11$#1+

[BentonGrey]

AA, there are three different campaigns included, THREE campaigns, one 7 missions long, and the other two 8 or more.  It is a bit more than just a few missions.  These campaigns which allow you to play as and against many characters included in the mod (not all by a long shot, but it isn't as though these campaigns are just an afterthought), and they are the beginnings of something much bigger.  The Batman campaign alone encompasses most of his villains, and while the others aren't as far reaching because of the types of stories that they tell, they are far from being the end of my efforts.  The entire purpose of me realesing this in the first place, AA, is so that others can have a common base from which to tell stories.  I hope that characters who I have not worked with will eventually have their own stories told.  In the meantime, my first expansion will include campaigns in which you play as the JSA, the Aqua Family, and more.  I know Bearded wants to work with the Flash, and I have plans for GL and his villains, and the JLA campaigns will continue to expand their roster...there is no end in sight.

How is what I have done different from a mix tape?  Well, for one, I have done TONS of work on the FFEdit side.  This doesn't just a have a Green Lantern mesh and skin included, it also has him built into the game, with details like strings data painstakingly created, and all the customizations of FFX made, so that Hal uses his abilities very differently than, say, Killowog.  These are small details, but they are why I started this in the first place.  I wanted total immersion.  Now, I appreciate that you have given me permission to use your work AA, but I really do want you to understand what I am doing.  It is not merely a torrent, but the culmination of three years of hard work that encompasses a vast swath of the DC Universe.  The meshes and skins are a big part of that, but hardly all of it.  If so, I could have released it three years ago when I had most of the meshes and skins gathered.  Man, if that was all I had to do, I wasted three years of hard work.  What a sucker!

IPS, since no-one had chimed in with similar concerns in the weeks since the mod had been released, I thought that the matter was settled, I was mistaken.  Thank you for pointing me to the EZScript list.  I will begin immediately, and I will try and take the mod down this evening.  When I upload it again, I promise to you that I will have removed everything of yours that I can find in my mod.  

[steamteck]

tl;dr.

I think IPS  means well but he sometimes loses sight of the individual trees worrying too much about the forest.

IPS is often the moral voice of the community but I think he just need to step back and take a few deep breathes on this one.

I saw this and lol'ed for a good minute. Are you a FF content creator? If not you really can't tell someone who provides a lot of cool dren for you play with without receiving a nickel (or pence) in return to "step back". I think content creators have a right to say whatever they want about packaged content that includes their work. If someone asked for your money for a present for a friend and they wanted to get drugs but you didn't want your money spent that way, don't you think you have right to protest?

"

Obviously people read something into this I didn't mean or I wasn't clear. I was just trying to say he needed a little perspective.  I didn't know I had to be a creator to participate  in the conversation. I never said he couldn't do anything with his work, I never made any demands. I just said he should maybe take a little  time to think about it. I'm sorry I said anything. I know I;m just a player but I meant no offense just wanted to help.

[steamteck]

tl;dr.



Also I think you are missing the whole point, steamteck. IPS is not looking at the forest, he's looking at other fruitful trees while you guys (FF users? No, users sounds bad, players! Yeah! That's the word) are like the people on the ground. While Benton did encourage you to get back into Mainstream stuff, he also limited your line of sight. You no longer see all the trees and think "that Wonder Apple looks good on that tree I'm going to get it" but rather "I should just go down to the Benton's store because I know he has Wonder Apples, Bat Oranges and Super everything else I may want when it comes to DC fruits".

That's certainly not me but maybe some people are like that. I like  your  apples  in all varieties for example and will always check your store. I've downloaded several of your marvel and DC skins afterwords for example . Benton's vision isn;t quite mine and I certainly will actively look for more mainstream content now. Maybe  others are different. Again I meant no offense. I know I'm not a creator but I've been around along time and thought my input could be helpful. Sorry.

[AfghanAnt]

AA, there are three different campaigns included, THREE campaigns, one 7 missions long, and the other two 8 or more.

I haven't downloaded it and too be honest I think it is a little too large for a mod (I like to save my memory for other things of an adult nature if you know what I mean) but whateverz.

How is what I have done different from a mix tape?  Well, for one, I have done TONS of work on the FFEdit side.

DJs who create mixtapes do tons of mixing of other people's songs, it doesn't make it right or ok with the original artists.

This doesn't just a have a Green Lantern mesh and skin included, it also has him built into the game, with details like strings data painstakingly created, and all the customizations of FFX made, so that Hal uses his abilities very differently than, say, Killowog.  These are small details, but they are why I started this in the first place.  I wanted total immersion.  

So you are dictating to noobs how characters' powers work or what they do? Gotcha! I'm all for that!

Now, I appreciate that you have given me permission to use your work AA, but I really do want you to understand what I am doing.  It is not, as IPS continues to say, merely a torrent, but the culmination of three years of hard work that encompasses a vast swath of the DC Universe.  The meshes and skins are a big part of that, but hardly all of it.  If so, I could have released it three years ago when I had most of the meshes and skins gathered.  

Hey, you are preaching to the wrong dude. While I would be hurt if my work was lost to the community because of this mod's ridgedness, I don't care what you do with what I put on the internetz especially if it is a character I didn't create. I'm just a skinner, bud.

IPS, since no-one had chimed in with similar concerns in the weeks since the mod had been released, I thought that the matter was settled, I was mistaken.  Thank you for pointing me to the EZScript list.  I will begin immediately, and I will try and take the mod down this evening.  When I upload it again, I promise to you that I will have removed everything of yours that I can find in my mod.  

Oh my gawd, so you are going to force people to download it again? Hey Benton, how about to break the mod into digestible pieces. As I said before, the only reason I have no clue what your mod is about is because well it is way to large even for my 300 gb hard drive. I mean 5gs for a 4 year old game!?

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

As I said before, the only reason I have no clue what your mod is about is because well it is way to large even my 300 gb hard drive.

I'd like to point out that he is working on this and the dds + keyframe links should massively decrease the size.

DJs who create mixtapes do tons of mixing of other people's songs, it doesn't make it right or ok with the original artists.

Except that a song is a complete work that can be popped right on the air.  A skin is not.  In order to be used, it needs a lot of other things, meshes, keyframes, state swaps, etc.  These are as much a work as the skin itself it, even if of a totally different nature.

So you are dictating to noobs how characters' powers work or what they do? Gotcha! I'm all for that!

The same is true of any mod.  The only difference here is that not all of them are used in a campaign.  Yet.  Bentons does have plans for adding compaigns and scenarios using many more characters, you know.

[BentonGrey]

Well AA, what I've been working on (frantically!) for the last week has been finding ways to save space.  I hope to cut a few gigs out of the download, but we'll see how much I can manage.  I've been converting skins to .DDS and trying to share KFs between meshes.  As for breaking the mod into digestible chunks, at the moment it is in about 18 or so little, 100mb pieces, per community request.  I won't be forcing people to download it again, but it will be an option for those who are space/resource conscious.  

I don't think comparing what I have done with a mix tape is fair.  I do hope that when the slimmer, trimmer version is released you will check it out AA.

[Previsionary]

Good luck removing all those textures. Better hope they didn't show up in any other fx.
--------

Well, because I was asked to weigh in, I guess I will. This discussion is interesting because of the "lateness" of the complaints. If they had come out 2+ years ago when Benton had threads all over the place announcing the mod, I think it'd be a different story. I think BG handled it much better than most would if someone came in and said, "I don't agree and here's why...," after years of hard work. These things weren't hidden from anyone, so let's not make it seem like it was. There were enough threads and buzz for every active contributer to see and voice their thoughts and, ya know, I think 3 years is ample time to speak out on something. I do find it odd that so many people missed it, but this is probably because so few creators pay attention to or play mods. This is said assuming BG took the PROPER procedures to get permission of all the work he has in the mod...or content pack...or what have you. I know he asked me for my work, so I'd think he did with others as well if they weren't donated directly.

Now, speaking for myself only, I didn't initially think I'd be pleased with BG's DCUG because, back when it was first announced, it came across as nothing but a hero pack. I don't inherently have a problem with that, but it did bother me a bit that people were flocking to it and ignoring other modders at the time. I, myself, probably had a mod or two coming out and barely got any feedback in comparison. Though it bothered me, it didn't bother me enough to make a scene because, well, none of my stuff was in it [at the time]. If someone had a problem, it WAS up to the content creator to speak up and clarify their rules. Once BG began making actually campaigns, I grew on the idea because he was actually creating stories--playable stories--and taking up other responsibilities that the remaining few of us modders had. He was debugging, "coding", testing, playtesting, everything I do as a modder and he was effectively going out there and learning a trade while providing content in a field that was, and is, lacking it. Because of that, I was a LOT more tolerant of the content.

As for your points, IPS, you did make several good ones. I do think a "DCUG lite" pack would make this mod a lot more accessible and probably move it out of the perceived "grey area". Looking back over the past "packs", these things didn't turn out well because the provider DID these things in private without any type of permission. These things would just pop up one day and the creators would be insulted. There's a large time gap as far as Benton's mod is concerned. Speaking of the torrent idea, this mod does actually rival it. Though you, Benton, probably have most of the permissions required to release this stuff, you aren't "actively" using it all and it is just a quick stop 'n shop...minus the shopping as everything is pre-chosen to your liking. That was the reason the torrent was never done and I guess the idea could apply here as well. Not to mention, your mod is huge. It's friggin' huge. That's already a limiting factor, imo.

The monopolization point isn't clear cut. That's a theory based on an assumption. Regardless of how many people keep claiming their going to pick up ezscript and learn it...how many have? These things change once people learn of the active work required and I still see most of the work on BG in that area. Regardless, if someone wants to use something as a base, it will be done. Just recently all of my X-men code was stolen and used as a base for something else. If it weren't for me saying something, I doubt anyone would have come to my defense. It really seems that we, as a community, are MUCH more protective over skins and meshes than the other content. Even here I didn't see a single person mention anything outside of skins/meshes outside of IPS's request to remove his content.

As an end note, why didn't anyone go into an uproar over another content pack. It's one that is also readily available and only includes TWO types of content. ff1 objects...and ff1 maps. That's right, the map pack. It's set up as a mod...only includes maps and ffx...but everyone loved it. It's a very interesting conundrum because it makes me wonder why skins and meshes are viewed much higher than maps, objects, voice packs, and fx...other than the obvious reasons. I mean, those maps aren't being used in the actual mod outside of rumble room, right? Isn't that the same problem showing up here minus this mod has more variables and many more creators involved within the same field and outside of it? Wasn't that map pack also heavily downloaded and encouraged? See what I'm getting at here...it's something to note if only because of the reactions and the lack of dividing opinions on it.

In conclusion, I find this discussion happening NOW (past prime) and not years ago (fresh and easily fixable) interesting. I understand both BG's and IPS's points and intentions, and as such, it's much harder for me to side with ANYONE here as I am a content creator, but I understand the intent behind the mod/content pack. But then, I look at other projects that got away with this freely and no one said anything...and then I look at the time span and how much "ignorance"--IE: not knowing what was going on with the mod even though it was worked on openly--there is regarding the project though it was readily available at all points...and then I see the people who've wanted this thing for a long time and enjoy all this new stuff...and we've got quite a conflict to resolve. Not to mention that most of the resolution will fall on Benton and BG alone.

As an aside, I think the tone of some of the posts could be lightened up a bit before we end up brawlin'...and I take no prisoners when I'm brawlin'. 

[yell0w_lantern]

Here's my thing: if you're making these things primarily for praise or recognition then maybe you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I make what I want to make and then I show it. Praise, if it happens, is nice but not necessary. I wanted to see a Silver Age Batman, Silver Age Captain Marvel and a Ted Kord Blue Beetle. There was some positive feedback but I would've made them anyway.

[AfghanAnt]

I'd like to point out that he is working on this and the dds + keyframe links should massively decrease the size.

DDS aren't any smaller than tgas, they are just read correctly by the game's engine. Though the keyframes intrigues me, I do a lot of custom keys now so it moot.

Except that a song is a complete work that can be popped right on the air.  A skin is not.  In order to be used, it needs a lot of other things, meshes, keyframes, state swaps, etc.  These are as much a work as the skin itself it, even if of a totally different nature.

Woo woo woo, take that back. For the last year or so, I, as well as some others, have been creating complete characters. In fact, I can't remember the last time I released a skin without the skope mesh with it. If this was the heyday of skinning I would agree but it is simply not.

I don't think comparing what I have done with a mix tape is fair.  I do hope that when the slimmer, trimmer version is released you will check it out AA.

I think it is very fair. You may have sped up the tempo, put together a few songs people like to hear together, scratch over the beats, and repackaged it but the doesn't mean you are the original creator of all the conent.  Also since when are mixtapes a bad thing? A lot of well known DJs have started with mixing other people's work and scratching over it ( a lot of well known skinners too). If you are thinking of the "I created this mixtape at home for my gf" type, we are on totally different pages.

The same is true of any mod.  The only difference here is that not all of them are used in a campaign.  Yet.  Bentons does have plans for adding compaigns and scenarios using many more characters, you know.

Uhmmm no. Mods are like compilation albums. People with invested interest get together and produce an album which they believe no one will add on to. When Kanye and Jay-Z made the Black Album they didn't make a bunch of beats hoping Cameron and Nas would hear them become inspired and release as The Black Album: DCU.

Also why is everyone attacking my comments? I do not care what Benton does because I put my stuff online for a reason, however I do see how it causes some limitations for noobs and not so noobs who will assume "everything is in DCU that I need". It takes away choice is one of the negatives of this project whether you see it or not. Honestly if I was a new modder and I wanted to jump right in, I would just download DCU, create a subdirect and make my own mod out of it and release it as either ezscript or add-on mod.  If people say, "oh this is like FFX" no, it's not. FFX isn't competing with FFZ. This is the nature of skinning/meshing/fxs oppose to mods. The are thousands of Superman, Wonder Woman and Batman skins but how many   mods features these characters? A handful. Honestly if I were Prev, I wouldn't make another DC mod again. I mean why would he when anyone can open ezscript, click a few buttons, and bam! New DC mod! While this speeds up production time, it is at the cost of artistic merit.

And I'm done. If anyone addresses me again, I will simply type "tl;dr" because as I said I don't care but I can see how this may upset skinners, meshers, and even modders.

EDIT:
PREV! I will always come to your defense. Mods are sacred and most people don't defend modders as much because is it is hard to see code if the maps been changed and dinosaurs are now ice troopers!

[Cyber Burn]

Here's my thing: if you're making these things primarily for praise or recognition then maybe you're doing it for the wrong reasons. I make what I want to make and then I show it. Praise, if it happens, is nice but not necessary. I wanted to see a Silver Age Batman, Silver Age Captain Marvel and a Ted Kord Blue Beetle. There was some positive feedback but I would've made them anyway.

   I've really been trying to stay out of this debate. I haven't been able to download this yet (stupid dial-up), but hope to soon. I agree with Yellow Lantern, you make things that you want and then choose to share. You don't do it for recognition.
   Maybe to encourage the work of other skinners and skopers, a list of links to various websites could be added. This way, if someone likes a skin by an unfamiliar artist, they could find other skins by that artist. Personally, I like being able to use a variety of skins with the meshes I use, but that's just me. 
   With the beta, I could use characters from my main custom folder, and I hope that this feature is still there. I'm sorry that some people are upset with this release. I think that being able to participate in something like this by having some of my stuff included allows for my skins/skopes to be used by people who normally wouldn't have downloaded them.
   I'm not a very good skinner. I'm not a very good skoper. But I do appreciate the fact that someone appreciated my work enough to use in a mod.
   I know I'm rambling now, and I'm sorry. I just think that this mod was a huge project, and that it should be appreciated for what it is, someone's vision for the game that was shared with the community. Now I humbly back out of this discussion.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Woo woo woo, take that back. For the last year or so, I, as well as some others, have been creating complete characters. In fact, I can't remember the last time I released a skin without the skope mesh with it. If this was the heyday of skinning I would agree but it is simply not.

Unless you also include a hero file and customizations, than no, it's still not a complete character according to what I was trying to say.

It takes away choice is one of the negatives of this project whether you see it or not. Honestly if I was a new modder and I wanted to jump right in, I would just download DCU, create a subdirect and make my own mod out of it and release it as either ezscript or add-on mod.

I can't possible think of a better way for a new modder to get his feet wet.  It's a lot better than what usually happens, trying to put together a mod from scratch and giving up because of the overwhelming amount of work involved.  Far better to get into it gradually, with something like this, then move into more complicated, made from scratch stuff later, which is what I believe would tend to happen.  As soon as you start tinkering with something like this, you start thinking, this is nice but I would do it this way, use this skin, add this ability, and so forth, so you move on to something completely your own.

Anyone else notice that this argument tends to be artists versus modders?  Well, partly artists versus modders and causual users to, but I think the former is a better way of looking at it.  It does show you that there is a different perspective on things depending on which end you are working on.

[AfghanAnt]

Ok I'm just going to answer cats' comment because honestly I like him and I like being devil's advocate but the rest of you expect lots of tl;dr's. 

Unless you also include a hero file and customizations, than no, it's still not a complete character according to what I was trying to say.

Why would I dictate to users how to use Superman or Super-Skrull? That is the same point IPS is making about this mod. It dictates to users/players this is what Superman looks like and here's what he does.  For the record, I use to add hero files with all my characters until I realized people don't care what I think Superman or Wiccan can do. They only care about how they think his powers work. The whole point is proven with us having a hero file section on the forum. Why would we even have a discussion about it if there is a hero file included with every skin/mesh?

I can't possible think of a better way for a new modder to get his feet wet.  It's a lot better than what usually happens, trying to put together a mod from scratch and giving up because of the overwhelming amount of work involved.  Far better to get into it gradually, with something like this, then move into more complicated, made from scratch stuff later, which is what I believe would tend to happen.  As soon as you start tinkering with something like this, you start thinking, this is nice but I would do it this way, use this skin, add this ability, and so forth, so you move on to something completely your own.

Then why not release a generic mod for that purpose rather than a DCU mod? I'd tried my hand at modding (and I'm doing ok but I found out I'd rather skin) and I didn't use any other mod's code.

Anyone else notice that this argument tends to be artists versus modders?  Well, partly artists versus modders and causual users to, but I think the former is a better way of looking at it.  It does show you that there is a different perspective on things depending on which end you are working on.

It's really not that and for the recording I'm not fighting. I honestly think if I was say Alex and a mod tool like this was out there it would upset me. All the hard work I did before or will do in the future is going to be put in the same category as ezscript mods that had everything laid out for them.

It's like if someone said I'm going to make a DCU psd file with all the pieces from other people's skin on different layers but I made these three master meshes that can be skoped into any DCU character you want. Why would I (a skinner who learned it the long and hard way) bother skinning anymore? The masses have essentially a Hero Maker for skins. You don't think that would be upsetting?

Also when is the Marvel one coming out? I might just download that one.

[BentonGrey]

Well, I'm done.  I've explained my work and my point of view as well as I am able.  I do have to say that I agree with Prev.  If you wanted to really oppose this, you should have done it three years ago.  You can't really say that there was no hope of me finishing it.  I put out the Beta (a compilation that WAS just skins/meshes/fx a few missions, and customizations) nearly a year and a half or two years ago.  It was public, it wasn't hidden, and it was released.  Unless something pertinent is brought up, I'm going to get on with the business of trying to makes something useful.  Maybe I'll start another thread for campaign feedback.  So far IPS is the only one who has asked me to remove content.  In the hopes that no-one else shares his feelings, I am going to continue working towards a 1.1 release.

AA, I imagine that Alex would be thrilled that people are able to tell stories and contribute to the community, where they were not able to before. 

[GogglesPizanno]

Oh Jeez....
I was gonna stay out of this one, but Tutie had to go and bring up the mappack... CURSE YOU!!
I had a big long diatribe, but I pulled back, as this thing has just gone on too long and turned too ridiculous.
So I'll say my peace and move on.

For All of this back and forth going on, I think Benton's mod needs to be judged by a simple standard (as all mods should including the map pack):

As long as he got permission to use content, and didn't misrepresent what the content was going to be used for, then its a moot point. Its his mod, done his way. If you don't like it, or have some general issue with it. Don't play it. If you have a specific problem with it that pertains specifically to something you created or had a hand in, then PM him and resolve it (as he indicated he would remove anything that people felt was used inappropriately).

Using the public forum to carry out these general grievances does no one any good. It Turns away potential players when they see this kind of bickering when they were maybe just interested in playing this JLA thing they heard about. It hurts the creators because these kinds of issues create divides and bad feelings and general disinterest in continuing to mod over issues that really should be easy to overcome with a little communication.

....And that's all i got to say.

[laughing paradox]

I would like to say, with all due respect, that one person can't speak for creators as a whole, especially if they haven't even asked for the input of many of these creators. I know I was never asked and I wonder what the input is of other currently active skinners, like Daglob or Blobula or Billdamn. I see the same vocal group speaks up about where they stand and how they are representing everyone.. but not everyone is of the same mind. This is a diverse group and everyone should keep that in mind.

If there are specific people who do not want their work out there in this context, then that's fine.. so be it. But don't take on a creator's crusade and speak for everyone else when they are just as able to speak up for themselves.

With that said, Benton.. I know you put a lot of work into this and this is most certainly a MOD, regardless of semantics. You did nothing wrong and I dislike that some people are treating you like you did. I've seen this same behavior before, like when Megatallica created his Dragonball Z skins, and it's very off-putting. This is the kind of thing that would turn people away from the site and not want to contribute.

I want to echo Goggles sentiment that this kind of debate, when it deals with specifics.. like IPS specifically not wanting his content added to the Mod.. should not be spoken of here and instead should be in private.

Perhaps there should be a skinner permission list akin to the list for meshers. It would help alleviate problems for these kind of issues in the future.

[Vertex]

umm well I don't think IPS is trying simply to get his own material removed. I think that's the LEAST of what he expects.

I never dallied in any of the past debates over torrents and such but the impression I've gotten from people told me..  The MASS distribution of skins and meshes and so on was decided to be a definite no no. It was debated.. it was discussed.. it was argued. Bottom line from what I've been told, it was banned. Now here we have a man trying to accomplish a goal.. a mod...... but not just that.. he's got an epic concept in mind. Most people think of a mod in very simple terms, you make a story, you throw together the characters and background to make that story 3d. Then you release it.. that's what people expect of a mod.

  What you got here isn't just a mod, (yeah yeah blah blah debate that fact all you like) What you got here is an attempt to include EVERY character in a known universe. The attempt to throw enough material at people to fix so hopefully they do something with it. The mod didn't need all this extra material, it isn't part of the mod, it isn't necessary. What it is, is a circumvent of the "no no bad bad" torrent idea.. in a new form. Something that was turned down and has now been worked around. Personally, I couldn't care less because I was part of the folks who loved the FFhub which amounted to a torrent itself. Most people avoided the hub and it died. However I do recognize that this circumvent of the no torrent rule.. is by community law.. a bad thing.

[AfghanAnt]

Oh Jeez....

I know! I thought the same thing about myself when I started typing this.

Using the public forum to carry out these general grievances does no one any good. It Turns away potential players when they see this kind of bickering when they were maybe just interested in playing this JLA thing they heard about. It hurts the creators because these kinds of issues create divides and bad feelings and general disinterest in continuing to mod over issues that really should be easy to overcome with a little communication.

Why not? Because some people get more upset than others because of a minorities' opinion on this subject? I realize I had some valid counterpoints but it doesn't mean I actually agree. I honestly played devil's advocate because 1) no one likes to complain about something alone and 2) it's the opposite view of what I actually believe. So far the only person who actually feels strongly about this is IPS and Bent agreed to remove his work so I do not see why everyone is screaming "Skinners battling modders for a chance at superiority" when the truth is someone has an opinion the group doesn't like so we get all mad and start pointing fingers and being nasty but that's human. All non-human please do not weight in on this, you have no understanding of what is means to be upset with someone for not having your view.

If there are specific people who do not want their work out there in this context, then that's fine.. so be it. But don't take on a creator's crusade and speak for everyone else when they are just as able to speak up for themselves.

I think I was just putting the counterpoints up. As I said I don't even agree with them.

I've seen this same behavior before, like when Megatallica created his Dragonball Z skins, and it's very off-putting. This is the kind of thing that would turn people away from the site and not want to contribute.

I remember that and it wasn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bud.

I want to echo Goggles sentiment that this kind of debate, when it deals with specifics.. like IPS specifically not wanting his content added to the Mod.. should not be spoken of here and instead should be in private.

Perhaps there should be a skinner permission list akin to the list for meshers. It would help alleviate problems for these kind of issues in the future.

Some people were personally asked to chime in. Not my fault I have my own opinion and stance even if it is different than the one I defended.

Perhaps there should be a skinner permission list akin to the list for meshers. It would help alleviate problems for these kind of issues in the future.

Uhmm this isn't the first time something like this happened and that's why we have things called a readmes.

[laughing paradox]

umm well I don't think IPS is trying simply to get his own material removed. I think that's the LEAST of what he expects.

I never dallied in any of the past debates over torrents and such but the impression I've gotten from people told me..  The MASS distribution of skins and meshes and so on was decided to be a definite no no. It was debated.. it was discussed.. it was argued. Bottom line from what I've been told, it was banned. Now here we have a man trying to accomplish a goal.. a mod...... but not just that.. he's got an epic concept in mind. Most people think of a mod in very simple terms, you make a story, you throw together the characters and background to make that story 3d. Then you release it.. that's what people expect of a mod.

  What you got here isn't just a mod, (yeah yeah blah blah debate that fact all you like) What you got here is an attempt to include EVERY character in a known universe. The attempt to throw enough material at people to fix so hopefully they do something with it. The mod didn't need all this extra material, it isn't part of the mod, it isn't necessary. What it is, is a circumvent of the "no no bad bad" torrent idea.. in a new form. Something that was turned down and has now been worked around. Personally, I couldn't care less because I was part of the folks who loved the FFhub which amounted to a torrent itself. Most people avoided the hub and it died. However I do recognize that this circumvent of the no torrent rule.. is by community law.. a bad thing.

I miss the Hub. I got so much stuff from there back in the day.

[AfghanAnt]

I miss the Hub. I got so much stuff from there back in the day.

Me too and people use to whine about that all the time because it was technically redistribution.

[laughing paradox]

I remember that and it wasn't as serious as you are making it out to be, bud.

I think you misunderstand what I mean. It wasn't the severity of that specific situation, it was the actual 'accusation before understanding' sentiment that I have seen other times on this board. That kind of sentiment could cause people to not want to contribute to this site and I can understand that. I was referencing the Megatallica thread as only one instance of this.

Some people were personally asked to chime in. Not my fault I have my own opinion and stance even if it is different than the one I defended.

I'm not faulting you, or anyone, for general ideologies at all.. I was just saying when it comes to specific situations, like a specific skinner or mesher not wanting their content added to a particular project, that should be kept in PM's. That's all I meant. 

Uhmm this isn't the first time something like this happened and that's why we have things called a readmes.

But unfortunately the problems still persist. I think there's no harm in suggesting another idea to help diffuse future situations, y'know?

[tommyboy]

DCUG WAS announced a long time back, and is not just a vast collection of content but also the stories, and code, and implementation of characters within the game engine. It's as much a "real" Mod as any other Mod ever was.
And it was always intended to be the DCUniverse, how could that be a small package, for pity's sake?
What would be the point of it if it didn't feature as many characters as possible?
It introduces some to characters they didn't know, or care about, and reminds others that it can be fun to play as X or Y.

In my LSH Mod, I included lots of "content" (ie meshes, skins and built in characters) that wasn't within the campaign missions because  A) Most of the stuff was to be used in the (as yet not done) second, third and fourth "chapters", and I'd rather just release small updates to one huge package than four hefty ones. And B) I wanted to include as many heroes and villains from the LSH Universe as I could, for Rumble Room play, which is what I mostly do. I'll play a Campaign Mod once or twice but the Rumble Room gets thousands of outings, and The More, The Merrier. That was my rationale. If people thought the Mod too big, or "just a collection of meshes and skins", they didn't have to download it. Same thing with DCUG.

Benton, you have my full support and gratitude. Other matters have prevented me from playing much, or commenting, but I have the Mod, and like what I've seen, Thank You.
I can sort of respect some points that have been made, I think some have some validity and are worth considering, but are much, much much too late, and others just wrong.
You can't tell him he has to include one mesh/skin/fx/voicepack by every creator. You can't say that by choosing certain skins and meshes he's damaging the community. Every Mod does that, are they ALL damaging the community?
You cannot tell him how may characters he may put in a Mod before it's "too many".
You can say "don't use my stuff", and that's fair enough. I'll fully support anyones right to say that.
But I cannot recall any other Mod ever getting criticized for being a "mix tape", and they all feature work from a variety of community contributors. So the "mix tape metaphor" is either going to have to be retrospectively and in future applied to every Mod that uses meshes/skins/FX that were not made specifically for it, or dropped.

[Vertex]

tommy with all due respect this is "almost" a rerun of the old electro fx pack debacle. Yes Benton made a mod.. yes Benton is a great guy with wonderful intentions... but then he tossed in a TON of extra material that honestly is not part of the mod in hopes of encouraging something.. but it still breaks the same rule and sets a bad precedent. the rule is no big mass download packages. Benton did a torrent type release.. without having a torrent.. rule broken. Personally I never agreed to rule as I stated above.. but it's still a rule and keeps things like what went with electro from happening again.

[deano_ue]

can some one tell me why my post was deleted