The Marvel Thread

[daglob]

You are the comic book reader, and you are who the books are supposed to be written for. Sometimes it seems like the story suddenly veers off into some kind of personal experience for the writer, and for some reason the book continues to be published. Or, if the book is cancelled or the writer is replaced, the writer blames the readers for not "getting" what he was doing (basically literary onanism).

[HarryTrotter]

Cerebus effect?
With Bendis its more along the lines of everybody having the same quips.Which gets annoying fast.

[Tomato]

So I've been catching up on a few Spider-Man related books... just finished reading ANAD Avengers (the one with Miles) and they introduced a new Wasp... and while she does seem to exist solely as a backhanded way of tying into the movies (She's basically an altered version of Hope Van Dyne) I like what they came up with for her origin...

Spoiler

Instead of being Henry Pym's daughter with Janet, Nadia Pym is Henry's daughter with Maria Trovaya, his first wife. It's an interesting twist on things, and allows her to have the whole dead mother thing without killing Janet for the 12th time.

[kkhohoho]

So. Apparently, the first issue of the new Steve Rogers!Captain America comic has a big twist at the end that, you guessed it, changes everything, but in this case it just might. Supposedly, Steve is now a HYDRA agent, and has been one ever since childhood, his mother having inducted him into it when he was just a kid living in Brooklyn. If you don't believe me, here's the link: http://www.theouthousers.com/index.php/news/135410-exxxclusive-bad-guys-the-outhousers-will-spoil-captain-america-steve-rogers-1.html

...

BULLHOCKEY!!!

[Tomato]

Hrm... I... hrm.

Ok, so listen... the idea that he's always been Hydra and is complicit with Hydra is BS and I won't defend it at all. BUT... please hear me out here before you kill me... BUT... there is a plotline from Earth X where the Red Skull reveals that the entire Super Soldier program was secretly a Nazi project, that Erskine was working for Germany the whole time, and that the man who killed Erskine was there to kill Captain America once they had proven that the serum worked. The plot rang true because the whole idea of a blonde haired, blue eyed super soldier IS the fundamental Nazi ideal, and I wouldn't mind seeing something like it fleshed out in the mainstream stories.

This though... hrm. No. Nononono. Steve being complicit with Hydra makes no sense.

[kkhohoho]

Hrm... I... hrm.

Ok, so listen... the idea that he's always been Hydra and is complicit with Hydra is BS and I won't defend it at all. BUT... please hear me out here before you kill me... BUT... there is a plotline from Earth X where the Red Skull reveals that the entire Super Soldier program was secretly a Nazi project, that Erskine was working for Germany the whole time, and that the man who killed Erskine was there to kill Captain America once they had proven that the serum worked. The plot rang true because the whole idea of a blonde haired, blue eyed super soldier IS the fundamental Nazi ideal, and I wouldn't mind seeing something like it fleshed out in the mainstream stories.

This though... hrm. No. Nononono. Steve being complicit with Hydra makes no sense.

I've read Earth X too, (and it's pretty kickass, dry dialouge aside,) and the reason that works is that Steve is still Steve. His entire creation may have turned out to be a Nazi plot, but Steve himself was completely unaware of this. He was still the star-spangled man with a plan we knew and loved, who as it turned out just happened to be an unwitting and unfortunate pawn in a rather insidious scheme, and none of that mangled his character or nullified his accomplishments.

This? This, assuming this isn't some big brainwashing plot or something, (which I hope it is,) is anything but that. (As you pointed out.) This not only alters Steve's origin, but also alters his character, assumedly turning him into a card-carrying member of the Nazi Party Hydra, therefore tainting everything he did, regardless of the good that was done, because he wasn't doing it simply to help people and save the world. All this time, he's now secretly been working to take over the world, (Gosh knows how that makes any sense...) and it paints everything that's come before in a rather sinister light. And even if it is a brainwashing plot or some sort of undercover plan on Cap's part, keep in mind that this same sort of crap was done to Falcon back in the day, and the fact that it eventually turned out to be a load of BS doesn't change the fact that it was a load of BS. Even if it's all some big hoax, it's still something Marvel shouldn't have even suggested in the first place.

[Tomato]

Oh, I completely agree. The fact that Steve would be complicit in this just does not smell right, but without knowing the context it's hard for me to say "F U Marvel"

But ho boy... if they try to seriously tell me this has always been the case... then NO. Nononono.

[Silver Shocker]

Geez, just when I thought Marvel couldn't stoop lower.

Do they ever care when they massively upend a character's entire history? They've done it a few times before, and it's never worked.

[kkhohoho]

EDIT: ...I have no words: http://www.bleedingcool.com/2016/05/24/captain-america-theyve-only-gone-and-done-it-final-page-spoilers/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[HarryTrotter]

I thought Outhouse is just taking potshots at Rebirth.But this is real.Killing a B lister,how original.
Now,could this be the 50's Steve who somehow switched places with the real one?

[Talavar]

Literally outrageous.  I can't even express how much this offends me.

[daglob]

It's the Captain America of Earth-3. Either that or it's an abysmally STOOPID idea.

I wrote several other things, but kept having to erase them. I probably should stop here.

Except to say that it looks like another way to deconstruct the superhero. An asinine way.

[crimsonquill]

My whole theory on Captain America is the new younger version was pulled from an alternate timeline and another easter egg planted from the Secret Wars team. Anything surprise related from comics these days is just rehashing the "WTF? shock moment!"

- CQ

[HarryTrotter]

Well,they had to compete with Rebirth.And congrats,they won.This was way weirder.

[GhostMachine]

The Captain America thing is garbage. And you can be assured that I'm using a stronger word than `garbage' in other places. Steve is my favorite Marvel superhero, and I can't believe anyone sane approved the idea.

What's next? DC decides Alfred killed Bruce Wayne's parents?

[kkhohoho]

What's next? DC decides Alfred killed Bruce Wayne's parents?

Ssh! Don't give them ideas!

Anyhoo, I've managed to calm myself down now, (which was quite a feat, I assure you,) and as much as I love Cap, and as much as I was borderline outraged yesterday about all this, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Apparently, back in the recent Captain America crossover Standoff, Red Skull (who still has Xaiver's telepathic powers due to surgically implanting them from Xaiver's rotting corpse,) said, 'The seed is planted.' For all we know, it could just be some big brainwashing scheme that'll be finished up by the end of the year. It actually kind of reminds of me of Legacy from Superman TAS, and if anyone's seen it, they'll know how good that turned out. So, after getting my initial anger and frustration out of the way, I'm actually kind of looking forward to see where they take it from here. Of course, if this doesn't turn out to be a big brainwashing scheme or some equivalent thereof, than Marvel will basically be dead to me.

EDIT: And now I'm wondering if I should take all of that back: http://www.comicbookmovie.com/comics/marvel_comics/comics-todays-captain-america-steve-rogers-1-features-a-a142018

[Tomato]

Didn't they do evil Alfred already? I'm pretty sure they turned him into a secret supervillain and he ended up dying a few decades ago, only for DC to retcon him back to life later on.

That being said, I'm not stressing this. Yes, it's a stupid marketing ploy, and I don't believe it for one hot second... but while Marvel is doing some crazy shenanigans, they're not THAT crazy. Captain America 3 made what, just shy of a billion? They're not going to do anything to permanently ruin the character, they're just playing around with it to tell some good stories... Eventually Cap's going to realize this is just brainwashing shenanigans, and he'll overcome it... because that is what he does.

[kkhohoho]

Didn't they do evil Alfred already? I'm pretty sure they turned him into a secret supervillain and he ended up dying a few decades ago, only for DC to retcon him back to life later on.

That being said, I'm not stressing this. Yes, it's a stupid marketing ploy, and I don't believe it for one hot second... but while Marvel is doing some crazy shenanigans, they're not THAT crazy. Captain America 3 made what, just shy of a billion? They're not going to do anything to permanently ruin the character, they're just playing around with it to tell some good stories... Eventually Cap's going to realize this is just brainwashing shenanigans, and he'll overcome it... because that is what he does.

This I know... but it still bugs me that we'll have to wait months, possibly until the end of the year, to get unbrainwashed Cap back, because that's just how most of these long-arse storyarcs work these days.

[HarryTrotter]

At worst,it only lasts until the next reboot/relaunch.
Which is Marvel Now(again) this fall.Yey,another relaunch.

[daglob]

That time of year again, huh?

[HarryTrotter]

Its a day ending in Y for Marvel.
On a funnier note,no way somebody is gonna take the Captain development as a political commentary,right?

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Too later.  Every source I've seen mentioning this ties it to the current Presidential election.  Even though it has nothing to do with said election.  I really don't see the parallels.

[HarryTrotter]

Hail Hydra!And vote Hillary. 

[kkhohoho]

So I posted a big mini-essay about the whole 'Captain Hydra' thing on another forum, and I figured that I might as well post it here. So without further adue:

"Here's what I'm getting from all this: Yes, it's probable that this is all just some big brainwashing plot on the Skull's part. Yes, it's probably going to be done away with by the year's end. And yes, within a few years time, this might well be swept under the rug like it never happened.

The problem though is that, in the here and now, all most people know for sure is that Steve is apparently a Nazi. Now, some of us are willing to put that aside and wait to see what happens, but many more aren't so patient. All that matters to them is what this particular issue here is saying about Cap, and they couldn't care less about what's to come until it comes. They don't want to wait several months for this to be undone; they want it be undone this very second. They want Marvel to come out and say right now that this is all just some hoax, and than to come out with a new Cap comic that undoes this ASAP. Because until that happens, as far as they're concerned, Cap's a freaking Nazi.

Now, as far as why this is such a hot issue with Cap, compared to how it might be with some other Superheroes? For one there's the whole 'created by two Jewish people' thing, which understandably rubs a lot of people the wrong way. But, as some have been trying to say, (and maybe not going into enough detail about,) Cap is more than just 'the white guy.' He's an inspirational figure; a kind, caring, and yet commanding and respectful hero who fights for the spirit of the American dream rather than how it's actually practiced, because the American dream as it's practiced is a load of BS. But Cap represents the ideal American dream, and believes that it's something worth fighting for. And so to subvert this representation of the dream into everything Cap was against is understandably going to rub people the wrong way. Cap isn't your average Superhero; he's basically Marvel's version of Superman in some respects, and anyone who loves Superman (as I finally did a few months ago when I had a goshdarned epiphany about him,) would probably feel the same way. (Though if you don't, than more power to you I guess.)

And on top of all of that, most who are ticked about this don't even really read the comics; they just read up on the important stuff while only bothering to watch the movies and TV shows. They aren't necessarily as in tune with just how comics actually work, and so as far as they're concerned, Cap is just a Nazi, because they don't know about comic cycles and the like. In most other media, a change is a change, and while there can still be twists and the like, I don't think there's going to be as many people suspecting that it's all one big brainwashing plot compared to your average comic-reading audience who's familiar with this sort of thing. Hence the vitriolic reactions and the death-threats.

So all in all, we have a mix of people who aren't that familiar with how comics work combined with those are upset at just the principle of the thing regardless of how it turns out, as well as all of this centering around a character equivalent to Superman in the ways that matter. Are they acting incredibility irrationally at all of this? Maybe. But who can blame them?'

[HarryTrotter]

In the meantime,Brevoort is convincing people that its not a dream,hoax or an imaginary story.
Does it really matter,if the whole universe is rebooted again in october?
On a similar note,this and Rebirth spoilers seem to be the only thing people are talking about.And I really wanted to discuss Spiderman/Deadpool.

[Talavar]

So I posted a bit mini-essay about the whole 'Captain Hydra' thing on another forum, and I figured that I might as well post it here. So without further adue:

"Here's what I'm getting from all this: Yes, it's probable that this is all just some big brainwashing plot on the Skull's part. Yes, it's probably going to be done away with by the year's end. And yes, within a few years time, this might well be swept under the rug like it never happened.

The problem though is that, in the here and now, all most people know for sure is that Steve is apparently a Nazi. Now, some of us are willing to put that aside and wait to see what happens, but many more aren't so patient. All that matters to them is what this particular issue here is saying about Cap, and they couldn't care less about what's to come until it comes. They don't want to wait several months for this to be undone; they want it be undone this very second. They want Marvel to come out and say right now that this is all just some hoax, and than to come out with a new Cap comic that undoes this ASAP. Because until that happens, as far as they're concerned, Cap's a freaking Nazi.

Now, as far as why this is such a hot issue with Cap, compared to how it might be with some other Superheroes? For one thing, there's the whole 'created by two Jewish people' thing, which understandably rubs a lot of people the wrong way. But, as some have been trying to say, (and maybe not going into enough detail about,) Cap is more than just 'the white guy.' He's an inspirational figure; a kind, caring, and yet commanding and respectful hero who fights for the spirit of the American dream rather than how it's actually practiced, because the American dream as it's practiced is a load of BS. But Cap represents the ideal American dream, and believes that it's something worth fighting for. And so to subvert this representation of the dream into everything Cap was against is understandably going to rub people the wrong way. Cap isn't your average Superhero; he's basically Marvel's version of Superman in some respects, and anyone who loves Superman (as I finally did a few months ago when I had a goshdarned epiphany about him,) would probably feel the same way. (Though if you don't, than more power to you I guess.)

And on top of all of that, most who are ticked about this don't even really read the comics; they just read up on the important stuff while only bothering to watch the movies and TV shows. They aren't necessarily as in tune with just how comics actually work, and so as far as they're concerned, Cap is just a Nazi, because they don't know about comic cycles and the like. In most other media, a change is a change, and while there can still be twists and the like, I don't think there's going to be as many people suspecting that it's all one big brainwashing plot compared to your average comic-reading audience who's familiar with this sort of thing. Hence the vitriolic reactions and the death-threats.

So all in all, we have a mix of people who aren't that familiar with how comics work combined with those are upset at just the principle of the thing regardless of how it turns out, as well as all of this centering around a character equivalent to Superman in the ways that matter. Are they acting incredibility irrationally at all of this? Maybe. But who can blame them?'

Agreed.  There are some characters who are bigger than the often crappy stories they appear in monthly.  Superman is one.  Captain America is another.  Now, both characters have survived various indignities, but to do this, now, as Captain America is reaching maybe his largest pop culture moment doesn't make me want to read this Marvel comic to discover the tantalizing controversy; it confirms my belief that I was right to largely drop the entirety of my Marvel pull-list.

[Silver Shocker]

On a similar note,this and Rebirth spoilers seem to be the only thing people are talking about.And I really wanted to discuss Spiderman/Deadpool.

I haven't read SP/DP yet, (cuz I was reading Rebirth, for one) but when I do I'd be all for discussing it. I still haven't decided if I'm going to pick up the fill-in issues coming up.

[kkhohoho]

...but to do this, now, as Captain America is reaching maybe his largest pop culture moment doesn't make me want to read this Marvel comic to discover the tantalizing controversy; it confirms my belief that I was right to largely drop the entirety of my Marvel pull-list.

Same here, sort of. I'd actually stopped reading modern Big Two comics for a couple of years now due to a plethora of different issues, including too high a price for too little content, too many 'big' events, and too many crappy stunts like this. (Though I do dabble in Ms.Marvel from time to time. Good stuff.) I was actually thinking about getting back into modern comics though, just prior to this. It seemed that, with Rebirth on DC's side and the recent All New All Different Marvel on Marvel's side, maybe it was time to come back in... and then they pull this freaking stunt. I understand that it's probably not going to last, and that it's probably all one big hoax, but it's still another attempt at shock value to get more sales. That doesn't make me want to buy more comics; at best, it makes me want to switch over to indies only, and at worst, it makes me want to drop comics altogether. Just because it's a stunt instead of something permanent doesn't make me any less ticked.

[Silver Shocker]

Didn't they do evil Alfred already? I'm pretty sure they turned him into a secret supervillain and he ended up dying a few decades ago, only for DC to retcon him back to life later on.

Yeah, there was an older story, an alternate universe version, and they revived the concept for Forever Evil.

That being said, I'm not stressing this. Yes, it's a stupid marketing ploy, and I don't believe it for one hot second... but while Marvel is doing some crazy shenanigans, they're not THAT crazy. Captain America 3 made what, just shy of a billion? They're not going to do anything to permanently ruin the character, they're just playing around with it to tell some good stories... Eventually Cap's going to realize this is just brainwashing shenanigans, and he'll overcome it... because that is what he does.

And will the B-lister be coming back to life at the end of the story? Of course not. They rarely do these days.

I really want to see the entirely of Marvel's writers take on a challenge: NO character deaths for 5 years. If they're good, imaginative writers, who can find other ways of building stakes and tension (as so many other series, genres and mediums do), it should be easy.

[kkhohoho]

I really want to see the entirely of Marvel's writers take on a challenge: NO character deaths for 5 years. If they're good, imaginative writers, who can find other ways of building stakes and tension (as so many other series, genres and mediums do), it should be easy.

I'd be down for that. The problem with Marvel's 'musical deaths' setup is that they keep on killing off and bringing back characters so freaking often that, rather than feeling shocked and raising the stakes when someone gets killed off, you just shrug and to say to yourself, 'Meh.' Which is probably not the desired effect that most writers and companies would be aiming for.