didnt get as my shop was sold out
but after reading the reaction here and on many other forums, this doesnt really bother me. people are getting to annoyed and over reacting with every little thing that happens now be it in movies or comics.

people wonder why we as fans of this mediums have a bad rep, take a look in the mirror. we do nothing but moan and complain about everything and are never happy

And then, we have the comicbook fans who take every opportunity to whine about other comicbook fans...

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on March 09, 2007, 05:54:20 AM
And then, we have the comicbook fans who take every opportunity to whine about other comicbook fans...

cheap shot

 Its my thought that the morally upright and larger than life characters like Cap and Thor have to die for the present ink dark age of Marvel to work. That even written as poorly as they often are their existance promises something greater that can't be allowed. I don't complain unless there is something to complain about. The industry has  a bad rep because the stuff it produces now is bad. I am quite happy with most of the movies actually because they get the spirit of the charactrs right more often than not and show infinitly more respect for them.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 09, 2007, 06:04:50 AM
cheap shot

;) I'm just saying that, in this case at least, comicbooks fans are responding to what they perceive as the mistreatment of a character they genuinely love and respect. Captain America has a long tradition of heroism and defending the common good, and as one of the few remaining prominent wholesome role models in comics, it's a shame that his character is being jerked around and generally not put to better use. For truly enthusiastic followers of Captain America (or anyone else, for that matter), why is it so unreasonable for them to express their distaste or outrage?

But in all fairness, yes, Captain America is Marvel's intellectual property, and they can do whatever they wish with him. Nevertheless, they should bear in the mind that a character with roots extending back as far as Cap's, the thousands of readers who've invested time and regard in his adventures won't appreciate having things turned topsy-turvy just so Marvel can grab some headlines and move a few more copies of their titles.

Quote from: BlueBard on March 08, 2007, 10:42:08 PMI have to confess that I was never a huge Captain America fan.  But still, the fact that he stood for moral values means something to me.  Also, his presence in the MU was sort of a comfortable certainty... even if you weren't specifically following him, you KNEW that he was out there fighting for truth and justice.  You never doubted in him.

That's pretty much exactly how I felt about Cap. Never a huge fan, and frankly I always found it a little annoying when writers would treat him as the Greatest Hero in the Universe- I strongly believe that Marvel shouldn't have a single "greatest hero". On the other hand, I've always had a lot of respect for Cap, and even found Steve Rogers a likable character (depending a little on who was writing him). I never had any trouble considering him ONE of the greatest heroes in the Marvel Universe- and, considering his relatively low power level (aside fromt the shield, of course), that's impressive enough.

I do definitely have a problem with current trends at Marvel. It's not entirely the "darker feel" thing- Marvel always had a dark element to it (certainly moreso than true Silver Age DC ever did), and, so long as that darkness was simply one element of a rich and varried universe, I think it added, rather than taking away from, that universe. I do kind of think it's out of balance these days, but the main problem I have with Marvel- and DC, as well, at least to some extent- is that things are in a constant state of "being shook up". There was always such a thing as change within the Marvel Universe- to some extent, at DC, too, even in the Silver Age. However, most of the changes that happened were organic, character-driven changes, and there was usually some sense of a temporary "status quo" from which things could be changed. Now, it seems as if most changes are made purely for "shock" or "coolness" reasons, and as soon as one change is made, things change completely again.

Just want to make one point about comics being "about making money". When Roy Thomas first introduced the Vision, he immediately became THE most popular comic book character among fans. For several years, he ALWAYS won "most popular character" awards, and many fans wanted to see him in his own series. Had this happened now, in the '90s, or even the '80s, teh Vission would have immediately started guest-starring everywhere (promenently displayed on the covers), would have recieved his own series, and, these days, would have been made a member of every hero team around at the time. Instead, Roy Thomas wanted to keep telling the Vision's story entirely within the pages of the Avengers. He felt that was the best way to use that particular character. Of course a comic book company wants to make money, and of course profit has to be an element of their motivation, but it doesn't ahve to be the sole or overriding motivation. A desire to tell good stories, and a love and respect for the characters, should, in my opinion, be every bit as important.

Of course, this is all just my personal opinion. The fact is, for the most part, I haven't been buying comics for a long time now. If many people like the stuff Marvel's currently doing, that's great for them. However, I think there was a wonderful quality to the Marvel Universe in its "classic" period- mid-'60s to mid-'80s, I'd say- that I miss. I would love to see a version of the Marvel Universe that had that quality, but was also simultaneously a little more sophisticated, a bit higher-quality on the writing (don't get me wrong, some of it was up there, but some wasn't), doing new things with those old ideas...  If Marvel was like that, I would probably start buying them again...

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on March 08, 2007, 08:30:59 AM
Can someone verify the accuracy of this? It was on Wikipedia, which is dreadful for accuracy, but I wanted to get a quick catch-up on Cap's activities from the past two years or so.

[spoiler]"Through the Winter Soldier and Falcon's immediate action upon the attack, it is revealed that the assassination was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones; and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr. Faustus, was the person who shot Rogers in the stomach. Sharon is later contacted by the Skull's other operative, Sin, who uses a trigger phrase to give Sharon her memory back, making her realize she has killed the man she loved."[/spoiler]

That's accurate although:

[spoiler]It leaves out a key plot point.  Before Cap is shot, Nick Fury, Sharon Carter, and the Winter Soldier are about to execute some sort of plan.  It's not revealed what they intended to do but it's derailed when Crossbones fires.  That's why they were there in the first place.  Presumably the Falcon was in on it too but that's not completely clear.[/spoiler]

BTW, I mentioned elsewhere that I'm not yet convinced Cap is really dead.  I just saw something else that could support that theory.  Apparently, the next issue of Cap doesn't come out until May 23, the same week as the last issue of Fallen Son.   It could be that Marvel doesn't want Cap #26 to come out before Fallen Son is over because it reveals that Cap isn't really dead or it suggests that he'll somehow come back soon.

I called the comics shop today because I was heading out there (the mall its in, that is) today, so I figured I'd see if I got a copy, considering I already have the series on my pull list and have for months. It was the only book I had in (not surprising, since I picked up my books last week). Went and got it, and:

a. I got the variant cover.

b. The guy running the register said they put the book on the stands and they sold out within an hour and a half!

I just got back from doing my running for the day, but am in no hurry to read the comic. The reason I was out at the mall in the first place was to pick up a book I ordered last week that came in yesterday, and I'd much rather read it. (For my fellow wrestling fans here, the book is the `The Death of WCW' book)

And yeah, with the next issue not coming out until late May, I'm expecting some sort of major swerve.

One thing about the comic, though?

[spoiler]Dr. Faustus better make sure no one knows he was involved, because if he does he's going to have the Punisher and Winter Soldier all over him like white on rice, and since both have no problems with killing......[/spoiler]

If there is a replacement Cap, there are only two people I'd even consider accepting as a replacement, and even then only on a temporary basis:

1. Sharon Carter (as long as she looks like a female version of Cap instead of like American Dream - hair showing is okay, but I hate the changes they made to the costume for AD's version)

2. Winter Soldier (ONLY if he doesn't kill people....the people involved in Cap's death being the only exceptions)

3. Nick Fury (just because it would be screwy - especially if he smokes with the mask on)

Cap with a cigar would be kind of funny.  I've lost track of Nick over the years, does he still use those weird needle guns?

Personally, I think most of the characters best suited to be a new Cap would refuse to do so; for the same reasons I said the Falcon would refuse.

DK

I finally did read the comic, and I'm convinced its all going to be one big swerve. Why? Many reasons:

[spoiler]

1. Sharon being brainwashed by Faustus and being the shooter? I don't buy it. I know the comics where she was brainwashed by Faustus before came out in the 70's (or early 80's), and the way Marvel-time works its only been a few years, but don'tcha think that she'd have undergone brain scans, conditioning and other things since then that would have either detected or eliminated any further effects of Faustus' work? I doubt S.H.I.E.L.D. would reactivate an agent who had been brainwashed without taking precautions to make sure they're not a sleeper agent or otherwise still under any effects. Sharon's reaction at the end could very well be her acting, in case whatshername or any other Red Skull agents are around.

2. I doubt that they'd take Cap out in front of a mob of people without taking security precautions preventing things such as what happened from happening. It could very easily be an LMD that was shot, while the real Cap was whisked out secretly out the back door in disguise. Since they can be made to pass for human, I assume they can also be made to bleed like a human.

3. The next issue of Captain America isn't scheduled to come out until May 23, which is around the time the Fallen Son stuff ends. If Cap is really dead, wouldn't it make more sense to have issues of the actual series as part of the storyline, focusing on Winter Soldier, Sharon and Falcon?

4. If Sharon actually did do it, then Faustus having her know she did it is a big mistake, because even if she doesn't know he brainwashed as part of her memories of the act being restored, he should be the number one suspect. And heaven help him if Winter Soldier or the Punisher finds out, because he'd better have his last will and testament ready.

5. Cap being `dead' beats Cap being put on trial before what would probably be a kangaroo court makes a lot of sense, as he'd be able to go into hiding or adopt another identity and then pop up as Cap with an `I told you so' when the Registration backfires or something else (like someone hacking it) happens that proves the anti-reg side was right.[/spoiler]

Someone probably mentioned this, but it's pretty much what they did with John Walker before he became the USAgent. Seems like a great way for Fury to get him on the inside, re-partnered with Bucky, etc. BTW, Cap was always my fav, right up there with Spidey, Logan, and the Punisher (as far as MU goes).

A Cap\Fury\Winter Soldier underground\covert ops team would be awesome. Get Union Jack in there as a U.K. liason, and it would really be cool.

Oh, and considering my 3 favorite Marvel heroes were (assuming he really is dead) Captain America, Iron Man and Spider-Man (and Spidey's been messed up for over a decade), that should tell you why I'm reading mostly DC books right now.

Quote from: GhostMachine on March 09, 2007, 12:19:34 PM
The guy running the register said they put the book on the stands and they sold out within an hour and a half!

Marking the first time anyone from outside the comicbook community has stepped into a comic store since 1994. Speculation! Speculation! ;)

Quote from: Spring Heeled Jack on March 10, 2007, 07:13:42 AM

Quote from: GhostMachine on March 09, 2007, 12:19:34 PM
The guy running the register said they put the book on the stands and they sold out within an hour and a half!

Marking the first time anyone from outside the comicbook community has stepped into a comic store since 1994. Speculation! Speculation! ;)

Yep, and there are already plenty of idiots coming out of the woodwork. Someone actually paid $310.00 + almost $8.00 in s & h for both covers on eBay! The guy at the comics shop said the most he had heard of anyone paying so far was $70.00, but that was just for one book (no, I don't know which cover).

This is why I stick to the Exiles...

now, I can see Stephen Colbert as Captain America.

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on March 07, 2007, 10:58:59 AM
just want to throw something out there, i always find it funny when people moan that there doing it all for the money


well duh of course

there's companys, the main goal is to make money. as an artist myself i always found it laughable that people  moan and say others sold when they 99.9% of the time would do the same

Hey there that sounds wrong,how many company's have to have courtesy,i cant raise my prices insanely high and be rude to my costumers,i cant spit on them,i cant call them names
I cant kill off (fire) my drivers and leave my patients on the side of the road and make them miss their surgery appointments, can i? just so i can raise my rates and prove to them they NEED my services,thats why there is competition,Money is a part of it,but Moaning is our right and everyones right.The customer is always right

I am a writer part time and i find that although people have "sold" and others do it,does not mean i will or it is right-i find it laughable
Me personally i dont value money that much,i take happieness and honesty, loyalty,over money any day and i will die with pride and no doubts that i was a human being who cared for my fellow man-alot like CAPTAIN AMERICA

Enjoy your laugh

I agree...We pay for the comics, we can b!t@h and moan all we want.  Do they have to pander to our needs?...No...But many times I think they should listen to longtime fans...As opposed to pissing them off.

I too have never been a big Cap fan, but I'm getting tired of Marvel's policy of tearing down/demonizing/killing off every one of their mainstay heroes...Like killing the New Warriors and Alpha Flight just because they weren't huge successes (they just weren't handled correctly, is more like it)...Killing Thor off, The Spider-Avatar Spider-Man bull$h!t, Captain America's (Cheap shock, attention-grabbing, media frenzy-generating) death, Etc....  How much longer are they going to use these lame "shock and awe" tactics?  Here's a novel idea...Get some writers who can actually write great and enduring comic stories.  I know some may disagree, but Marvel's Civil War was a piece of crap (IMHO)...Characters who've been friends and allies for many years, suddenly turning on each other at the drop of a hat (and many acting incredibly out of character).  It was all done for cheap shocks to sell comics.  I'd rather have a crossover with all the heroes working together to fight some massive threat, then having them at each other's throats with so very little motivation/provocation ("Registration's the law."...My backside!).

Tony (as written) has sunk really, really low this time (lower than he ever was as a drunk or even during his "Armor Wars" days)...Recruiting "scum of the Earth" villains and murderers to hunt his friends down?...Helping to create a clone of a friend (Thor) that ends up murdering another friend (Bill Foster/Goliath/Giant Man II)?...I find his actions totally repulsive and reprehensible.  I never liked Iron Man...But Marvel has made me to totally despise the character now....Nothing will redeem him, in my eyes (If I was one of his friends and resisted the Reg and witnessed all the things he did for the "Law"...I'd never forgive him).

I also believe killing Cap is a monumentally stupid idea...Sure, they can bring him back...But can they bring him back and keep their integrity intact...Well, that's been gone for years, so I guess not.  I feel Jo(k)e Quesada needs to resign now and let Marvel achieve the greatness, I know it can find again...He has done nothing over the past 10+ years but grasp at straws to make something, anything work (slowly destroying Marvel's greatest characters in the process).  Marvel is a sad, sad echo of it's former self.

Dana

I don't know if this has been touched on yet (I haven't got the stamina to read this whole thread), but it seems to me that everyone is so focused on the Civil War and it's ramifications vis-a-vis Cap'd death that they are overlooking something important: The Red Skull's plot.

If you've been following Captain America in his own book (as opposed to Civil War) then you've seen that the Red Skull has been putting a plan against Cap into place for several months now. We've seen the outcome of that part of the plan that involved Dr. Faustus and Sharon Carter, but there's still whatever use the Skull has put Arnim Zola to (Cap 23) and that "one use" device he got from Dr. Doom (Cap 22).

That leaves me with a few of thoughts:

1) That this thing is Civil War related is more of a timing issue than anything else. It's not really a Civil War plot line at all, but a Red Skull plot (which is why it the death was in Cap's own book). It just ties neatly into the Civil War situation.

2) The Skull's plot has only just started to unfold and it wouldn't do much good for him to gloat over Cap's lifeless body at what amounts to the first stage. Where's the satisfaction in that? Not to say that Cap isn't dead, but that doesn't mean the Skull plans to keep him that way.

3) Marvel is taking the opportunity of Cap's death to examine and explore the ramifications of what the death of that specific character would have on the Marvel universe as we know it. That's not an indication that his death is supposed to be the end of the character, just a chance to tell some interesting stories about it.


So basically what I'm saying is that this whole Death of Cap thing has gotten way way bigger than it was probably intended to. It's just another continuing storyline, not something meant to be final like the death of Barry Allen. Let's see how it all plays out.

---RENEGADE

Even though I've been doing a whole lotta "crying in my beer" over his death. I whole-heartedly agree with ya there bro. I've said it before and I'll say it again.."in Bru' I trust"! He been telling one of the best Cap stories (I've ever read) so far and I'm interested to see it unravel all the way through. Who know's what's gonna be at the end (Steve Rogers I hope!).