Death of Captain America?

[BentonGrey]

That kind of thing is why I read just about everything Alex Ross does ;)  Not having grown up in the Silver Age itself, I still love its characters, even if I don't care for the stories all that much.

[Blkcasanova247]

I don't know if it's a permanent thing but Dan Didio did confirm that Barry Allen is in the World War 3 event.

[The Hitman]

Now I remember why I only read X- Factor and DC comics...

You can't just come along and then give the outfit to...from what I hear.. the Punisher.

Argh. Why don't they just put Wintery Bucky Soldier in the suit, and make the crapfest come full circle. Oddly, I wouldn't mind seeing Cable as Cap for an issue or two.

Nobody stays dead. Ok, maybe the original Thunderbird, but that's it!

He's alive in Exiles. Feh.

And then Iron Man relieves himself on the remains.....

HA! Dr. Pepper shot out of my nose when I read that one!

Becides, he'll come back... more than likely as a by- product of Franklin Richards' powers after the Leifeld Onslaught/ Hero's Reborn sequal thing, a- la Hawkeye at the end of House of phleM.

[Podmark]

You know I hear this everytime a comic does a controversial thing, and I'm starting to get tired of it. Not that I always agree or like the moves, but alot of good story oppurtunities are lost if you're not able to try things like this.

In the Cap situation specifically, this has been rumoured for quite some time so I'm not surprised. Cap isn't a specific favorite of mine and I've never bought his book, nor am I planning to start, but my judgement will be reserved for a while til I see how this is handled and the quality of stories, and story possibilities it leads to.

In a more general sense, I think Marvel and DC are relying too much on shocking death lately as a a story device. I'm not against death by any means, but a seeming rise in it has given rise to some things I don't like. One being the "every event must kill a major character and several minor ones" - death is not the only device you can use, there are many different options to be played out. Second the mass of deaths and returns lately means that everytime someone dies one of the first three comments I hear is "they'll be back next year" - and it drives me nuts. While this is an industry designed for entertainment and profit so the ability to bring back characters is a must, I really wish it hadn't got to this point. But I wouldn't ban killing or bringing back characters because it just limits what you're capable of doing. The last thing that annoys me is that the more you kill heroes the more you have to wonder why other heroes survive what they do. It brings up a believability issue, that can be minor or big depending on the stories told.

Anyway that's my piece. As for Steve, we'll see...

[MyndVizion]

This morning I launched a web browser...my browser's homepage is set to a newsite...lo and behold on the front page is the picture of Captain America dead on some steps, with the words, "Captain America Is Dead".

I wanted to cry.

I've read Marvel comics all of my life. I've had three favorite heroes during that time. Hawkeye, Iron Man, and of course Captain America.  I was devastated when I watched Hawkeye killed during Avengers Dissassembled. I was furious when I watched Iron Man become the newest villain in the 616, but the death of Captain America is just too much.

Dan Buckley said the ideals of Captain America haven't died, only the man in the costume.  What a bunch of bull Dan.

There was a reason only Steve Rogers could wear the costume...no uniform, of Captain America.  Only Steve understood the ideals of the U.S.A. and what it truly meant to be a hero.  Anybody can wear the uniform, but they will never be able to live up to the ideals of what that shield truly represents.  Steve Rogers was a patriot and a hero - a hero other "heroes" looked up to.  He was highly respected in both hero and villain circles.  Dan can put somebody else in the uniform, but that person will never be able to live up to the life Steve did.

Marvel can never bring back Steve Rogers now.  Bringing him back to life cheapens him too much. Putting somebody else in the uniform cheapens the character.

Superheroes aren't supposed to die. The closest they should get to death is drastic defeat.

Joe Simon is right. We really do need him (Captain America) now.

[Blkcasanova247]

Right on the money!

[The Hitman]

Mynd, you've hit the nail on the head. I really couldn't agree more.

[BentonGrey]

Amen.

[Blkcasanova247]

I don't know if you guys could tell but Captain America "IS" my favorite hero!

[Blkcasanova247]

http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=104091

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Maybe I'm getting old here (26 is old, right?), but I'd like to see stories that wring the reader around in every direction, packed with ups and downs and all that, and with characters that don't shift their beliefs from one end of the spectrum to the other. And dag nabbit, I want happy endings!! They're HEROES, for crying out loud!

Think about it: Why are older fans (26 is older, right?) so enamored with comics long after they've lost their original childish purposes of fueling imagination and all that? Because they encoded us with basic ideals of right and wrong, &c., &c. I blame comics, Star Trek and GIJoe for my entire values system, and I have a pretty decent system of values. That's why I keep reading '60s comics, and that's why Peter Parker, Steve Rogers and Bruce Banner have always been some of my favorite characters, regardless how sophisticated my literature has grown since adolescence. They face adversity and hold fast to a strong moral grounding, and even if they don't succeed they at least fail with dignity and decency.

Maybe you can't sell millions of comics with decency and that junk, but you can bet I'd still buy a copy. Even if it is $3.50!!

Marvel has lost that Lee-Kirby spirit, and that's a terrible loss for everyone. Maybe when I get some big things cleared away in my daily life I can pen a few positive adventure tales and try to put back on paper what all those old comics gave me.

[MyndVizion]

I'm surfing the interweb reading about the outcry of fans all over the world at this discovery.  I'm still in shock.  But then I found this tidbit which really resonated with me...

"'Thank you Marvel for showing that if the terrorists wait long enough, America will destroy its own symbols of truth, justice, and liberty. What next? Flying superheroes into buildings?'"

/cry

[Mowgli]

Well, another poorly written story. Another bad concept. Captain America is the moral compass for Marvel... so they shoot him to sell comics. I think that speaks volumes.  :(

I think it's interesting that everyone is "anti-marvel" because of this. I don't like it either, but DC isn't any better. Blue Beetle, Jade, Sue Dibny... death sells and the comic companies all cash in on it.

[BentonGrey]

Hey now, I have the same disgust for both companies...I'm an equal opportunity curmudgen.  Seriously, I doubt that many people are just beating up on Marvel, it's been said a couple of times that DC does the same kind of things....I mean, look at Supes!

[Spring Heeled Jack]

My frustration with Marvel may be a tad misdirected. But then, with characters with histories that span GENERATIONS of readers, you'd think they'd be more innovative and respectful with them. Cap's become another squandered source of inspiration. And that's why I'm ticked at Marvel.

[GhostMachine]

I can confirm that Cap gets shot, because I've seen a pic of the aftermath, posted at another site. If I remember correctly, he gets shot in the gut while in costume but unmasked, with Sharon Carter and another character (I *think* Nick Fury) standing nearby.

AND I AM BEYOND ticked!

There's only one way I could see this being a good thing, and it involves the assassination being faked, so Cap can go underground and cause problems for S.H.I.E.L.D., Stark, and all the other pro-regs.

Think about this: Cap was pretty much under arrest and possibly through as a hero for the moment. If he `dies', what's to stop him from either manipulating things from behind the scenes or adopting a new identity to continue fighting crime.

He could very well even infiltrate S.H.I.E.L.D. or buddy up to Stark, only to come out of hiding once something happens that backfires on the pro-reg side of things (such as a villain like Machinesmith or a hacker gaining access to the registration database and causing havoc such as selling the list to the highest bidder and thus a character who is more or less like Scourge but kills superheroes emerging or someone using the list to recruit superpowered psychos for a terrorist group or supervillain team) and be the one who puts the pro-registration side in their place.

However, if Cap is really dead, then I'm pretty much done with Marvel as long as Joe Q is EIC. I planned on dumping Captain America, the only Marvel book I've been reading, from my pull list after the next issue, anyway, but I think I'm going to skip even picking up the issue and am going to forget about adding the new Captain Marvel series entirely. If any hero from Civil War should have ended up dead, its either Tony Stark or Reed Richards, in my opinion.

Frankly, I think the Punisher should be the next Captain America, because they've pretty much screwed up the character of Cap already, so why not hand it off to a bloodthirsty vigilante who blows people away on a regular basis, since it can't hurt any worse.

Joe Q and Mark Millar make me sick.

[BlueBard]

You know I hear this everytime a comic does a controversial thing, and I'm starting to get tired of it. Not that I always agree or like the moves, but alot of good story oppurtunities are lost if you're not able to try things like this.

I get that, as I pointed out in the first post of the thread.  IF Marvel has the stomach for it, it could be the catalyst for some really good stories.

In a more general sense, I think Marvel and DC are relying too much on shocking death lately as a a story device. I'm not against death by any means, but a seeming rise in it has given rise to some things I don't like. One being the "every event must kill a major character and several minor ones" - death is not the only device you can use, there are many different options to be played out. Second the mass of deaths and returns lately means that everytime someone dies one of the first three comments I hear is "they'll be back next year" - and it drives me nuts. While this is an industry designed for entertainment and profit so the ability to bring back characters is a must, I really wish it hadn't got to this point. But I wouldn't ban killing or bringing back characters because it just limits what you're capable of doing. The last thing that annoys me is that the more you kill heroes the more you have to wonder why other heroes survive what they do. It brings up a believability issue, that can be minor or big depending on the stories told.

That's the part that gets me.  The whole "Shocking Death" plot device is so over-done in comic-book-land it's a cliche.  Will Marvel (or DC for that matter) deal with death in a realistic manner that doesn't cheapen human dignity?  Maybe, but I don't know why they'd start now.

(I've been anti-Marvel for a long time now, actually, Mowgli... this kind of thing just reinforces my basic instinct to stay the heck away from just about anything they're selling.  And that's coming from a long-time Spidey fan.)

Captain America, now.  The sniper's bullet is certainly believable, especially in today's world.  It does generate a lot of hype and shock.  But I wish that the message had been more along the lines of "Real heroes go down fighting".  It does sort of cheapen the legacy of the character that he didn't die in battle... he died senselessly as the result of a cowardly act.  That fits the real world too much, I think.  We used to want our heroes to overcome such things so that they could inspire us to do the same.  Now we just want to know that they suffer like we do.

[Talavar]

And people say comic book fans are reactionary?   :rolleyes:  Right now, there seem to be two things that sell superhero comics: nostalgia and shock.  Everyone spleen-venting in here - I'd say nostalgia covers most of you.  Shock, however, gets the attention of the mainstream media.  Apparently killing-off Captain America got Marvel more free press than almost anything I can think of.  Of course Marvel is doing this for the money: they do everything for the money.  Most companies do.

Do I think the Marvel universe is heading towards an ugly, fascist place?  Yes.  Do I still read Marvel comics?  Some.  One event isn't going to make me throw up my hands and scream to the heavens, not when there are still good books being published by Marvel that will feel almost no impact from this.

[the_ultimate_evil]

i must be the only one on the boards, not really bothered or angry about this

[Podmark]

Nah you're not the only one UE, it's not a huge deal to me. I'm more worried about how Marvel's going to blow the oppurtunities now available (and they always do, don't get me started on Decimation).

See thats another thing I don't entirely get. When something you really don't like happens you quit the whole company? I can't say that every thing thats been done at Marvel (or DC) I've liked or agreed with, but nothing they've done has ever made me consider dropping their entire line, just the books that no longer please or interest me.

My current pull list includes Spider-Girl an old school style book that is completely disconnected from the rest of the events in the Marvel universe. I'm not going to drop it because Captain America died (he died last year in their universe :P ). I buy other books too, most of which are similarily disconnected from the big events. If I was buying Cap right now I doubt I'd be dropping it right away because I'd likely be enjoying Brubaker's work and want to see if he could still hold me without Steve himself.

I can kind of understand not wanting to support the company that does things you don't like, but at the same time you'd also be dropping your support of titles that you would enjoy. If you don't like that Cap died I can easily see not buying books affected by that move, but say you like and read...Runaways for example, do you give up that book as well?

[MyndVizion]

I have a huge problem with Marvel killing off Captain America and here's why:

1. I understand that Marvel is a company and is interested in making money. They killed off their most iconic and defining character (aside from Spidey) so they can sell issues today.  However a company needs to plan for long term goals. How do you increase revenue over a period of say 5 years?  Killing Cap ensured that they sell comics today, but their lack of telling compelling stories is not building a solid base for the years to come.

2. Comic books and superheroes should be a place where we can travel to get away from the drudgery of the every day common world.  Allegory is too easy for a writer to write about.  Allegory is meaningful "today", but it holds little appeal 10 or 20 years down the road.  Symbolism and the path of the hero are what makes things eternal. The ability to read a book at any point in time and the reader's ability to draw meaning from it are what makes things timeless.  Tolkien understood this - and it's the single reason why The Lord of the Rings continues to find readers today.  Captain America and the heroes of comics should be treated in similar fashion.  Writing about a Superhuman Registration Act, an entire gimmick designed to reflect the happenings of the real world is too easy to do.  It forced readers to "take sides" based on religious, moral, and/or political beliefs.  The writers should have never done this.  The heroes of these fantasy worlds should have been written so that everyone could identify with core beliefs - they should be a place where we can all come together on the same side and connect.  That is what makes these types of characters so defining and truly heroic.

3. Killing Cap off today placed him in the "real world".  Instead Cap should have been fighting against another Skrull or Brood invasion. He should have been battling some evil super villian for the betterment of humanity.  He should have been hoisting the American flag for every American Citizen.  He should have been a unifying figure in today's world, instead Civil War made him into a devisive figure.  All the good Cap has done over the years didn't even garner him one of the pardons talked about in Issue 7 of Civil War.  So the country he so loved and protected all of these years kicks him to the curb 'just like that'?  Marvel clearly had the ordinary people of the Marvel U take sides against Captain America in their mag while the entire real world populace has been clearly rooting for him and supporting him.  Now, more than ever, people need heroes in their lives. People to look up to, to emulate, to believe in.

4. Old and young alike.  Those of us who have grown up on heroes such as Cap remember what it's like to have heroes as a child, to imagine you're that hero with your friends. The long discussions about hero battles, and the make-believe times in your friend's yard while playing action figures or acting out as your favorite heroes.  The younger generation still needs heroes like this.  Captain America was one of those heroes.  Now little kids have to discover their hero is dead. How devastating.  Those of us who are now older, it was us who could sit down with a child and look at Captain America and connect. We've been there, and Cap was there with us.

Marvel certainly is looking to increase profits - and that is fine.  They should do so in creating compelling stories. While they are trying to create compelling stories by killing off the Sentry of Liberty, they failed to realize their responsibility with such an iconic and mythological figure.  That's why this death of Steve Rogers has created such an outcry on the internet. He was more than just a "literary character". Steve Rogers, throughout his many battles and decades of being with us, has become the stuff of legend - he is now myth. And myth connects with everyone.  Quesada and company did not recognize this.  For that I'm deeply saddened.

[BentonGrey]

In Memorium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45WtQ9BqSM

[Mr. Hamrick]

Ok, I'm going to keep this short.  If anyone wants my full take on this then go to my myspace blog and read about it later this evening.  As were I to give it here, I'd get accused of all sorts of stuff . . . you people know who you are.

That aside, I think it's a ploy.  I really hope it is.  Having seen the teaser for Omega Flight and the fact that there is a guy with a shield whose silouhette suspciously resembles Cap's and the fact that it looks to be Sharon Carter who shot him.  I suspect this is the case.

Many of you here are not old enough to remember when Steve Rogers set aside the Captain America mantle during the 70s and became The Nomad.  I think that is, to an extent, what is in play here.  Putting Steve undercover can serve two purposes and one of them, I can't mention here except to say "think about the two sides at play in the Civil War book and then their current events parallels".   The one I can mention is that some new does take up the mantle of Captain America but eventually hands back to Steve when he is revealed alive.

Just a few thoughts.  Either way, I quit buying Marvel at the start of all the Civil War bull.  I'm glad I did.  Will I ever buy a Marvel title again?  I'll never say never.  I started back buying Cap when he first joined the Marvel Knights line for a brief time though once that ended it kinda went back to "business as usual".

[MyndVizion]

If you don't like that Cap died I can easily see not buying books affected by that move, but say you like and read...Runaways for example, do you give up that book as well?

Well....I for one do not really care for Runaways.  But that's me.

I read comics for the heroic actions of iconic characrters. Namely Iron Man and Captain America.  I'm not a fan of "realistic" storylines in comics. I enjoy the over-the-top super heroic actions of yesteryear.  I want to see The Avengers battle to keep the world from being wiped out of existence - not battle each other over some stupid law pin heads in Washington passed.  For years I read The Avengers, Captain America, Iron Man, and X-Men. I stopped reading the X-Men when they split into 143828193847491010 titles. One or two - okay.  More than that and I get confused as a reader as to what the continuity is - so I stopped.  The Avengers are now filled with characters who are sub-par as heroes (IMHO), aside from Ms. Marvel and Iron Man.  Without Steve Rogers I don't feel the desire to read the mag(s) anymore.  Sure I may continue to follow for a few months just to see what happens, but I won't be *dying* to find out.  That pretty much leaves Iron Man - and considering he's now Alpha Villain in 616 now I'm left with a bad taste in my mouth and not really caring what happens to him.  I no longer see Iron Man as a hero anymore - he's just some guy who turns on his friends.

So that pretty much leaves me without Marvel books to buy.  I can't say I'll boycott Marvel in entirety. I'll probably pick up trades of various past story arcs and whatnot.  As to being a continued fan from month to month.....There's not really much for this reader to be excited about in the MU anymore.  Perhaps Captain Mar-vell will change that....

[Podmark]

Having seen the teaser for Omega Flight and the fact that there is a guy with a shield whose silouhette suspciously resembles Cap's

That is supposed to be USAgent, and while it could be a trick and it's really Steve Rogers, I seriously doubt it. Especially considering Omega Flight is a 6 issue limited series. Additionally the Initiative one shot came out today, and may have clearly stated if it was John Walker.

[Qwazy]

read this on GWO earlier

oh well

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/breaking_news/16849577.htm

[UnfluffyBunny]

GAH MAN! SPOILER!!!
I opened the thread thinking it was going to be another "they're ruining the character" ness, but DAMN IT! >_<

[Blkcasanova247]

That aside, I think it's a ploy.  I really hope it is.  Having seen the teaser for Omega Flight and the fact that there is a guy with a shield whose silouhette suspciously resembles Cap's and the fact that it looks to be Sharon Carter who shot him.  I suspect this is the case.

They'e already verified that character is John Walker The US Agent.

[stumpy]

i must be the only one on the boards, not really bothered or angry about this

Well, me too, but I don't read Captain America so it may not count for much.  :unsure:

This does remind me of the death of Superman schlock train that rolled through town a decade or so ago. Just a lame stunt to get a short-term bump in sales and it was poorly done and unmemorable. It's little surprise that the real Superman fans were so POed. I mean, who was Doomsday anyway? Just a no-name villain with no history. It would have at least shown some respect for the character if Superman had died at the hands of a real Superman villain, rather than some brawler made up on the spot.

(FWIW, many people would argue that the DoS series eventually resulted in some interesting things, like the new "Supermen" who arose while Supes was thought to be dead. And, some would even say that Doomsday himself, largely through addition of some backstory, became an interesting villain.)

But the premise that an archetypal icon like Superman or Captain America is really going to die and stay dead is silly and an insult to the intelligence of the readers. And, though they seem unwilling to acknowledge it, it's a straightforward duping of the non-comic media for free air time. Though now I know better, I was actually shocked at the time of DoS that alleged real news shows were taking it seriously - I remember a segment on a cable news channel (I am pretty sure it was CNN) with the banner across the bottom "THE END OF SUPERMAN?". Puh-lease! The only question the interviewer should have been asking the DC spokesperson was whether DC was going to offer refunds to subscribers to the S-books. (Sorry, but I have issues with puff-piece journalism.)

BTW, I don't like seeing heroes die, but I am not opposed to the story concept on principle. It makes sense that people engaged in such dangerous business are going to see some casualties. The suspension of disbelief is that it doesn't happen more often.

Moreover, I have nothing against the publishers trying raise sales and make a profit. There is nothing wrong with that. But, stunts that weaken the bond between the readers and the character and which diminish the character's iconic status ultimately work against it, IMO. A badly executed stunt will increase short-term readership for a few months, but alienate the long-term readers will annoy many of them enough to swear off the book for years. And then what do you have? You can only pull these stunts very rarely. And if these circulation drives succeed only in getting the "shock" reader, you are building a fickle readership that will abandon the book anyway, since they aren't going to be shocked by Cap dieing in a Very Special^® Fourth of July issue if he just died in a Very Special^® Christmas issue.

But, I don't like cheap tricks and I especially don't like cheap tricks that assume idiocy on the part of the audience.

Cap will be back. Six months? Two years? Whatever. He'll be back. Whether or not the fans will come back with him is another question.

[BlueBard]

One point to make.

Some folks talk about this being the last straw and how they're going to stop buying Marvel this instant.

Others think that's a silly reaction, to stop reading comic books based on one event in one title.

And I would agree with the second point of view.  If the death of Captain America is the only thing sticking in your craw, then just stop reading the titles that featured him and move along with the ones you do like.

Some folks take that second point of view and extend it to everyone who seems anti-Marvel.  That, I take issue with.  I didn't stop reading Marvel today.  I didn't quit on a whim.  I agonized over that a long time ago, because I love what some of the Marvel characters used to stand for.  I wish I could come back.

But... I hate the world that Marvel is building.  I hate how dark and oppressive it is, and it's only gotten worse since I stopped buying Marvel.  DC looks like it's headed in the same direction, unfortunately, and a lot of the Indy titles started out that way to begin with.

If Heroes don't equal Hope, if they don't stand for something hopeful and life-affirming, then they aren't Heroes and I'm not wasting any emotional angst over them.

This might be the last straw for a lot of people who were hoping that Marvel would turn things around and have had their hopes dashed for the very last time they're willing to stomach.  It might be the last straw for people who have decided they have better things to spend their money on than the latest shockfest.

You want to keep reading what Marvel is putting out?  Fine.  I hope you can respect those of us who made rational decisions not to.