Death of Captain America?

[BentonGrey]

Exactly BB.

[lugaru]

One point to make...

Read his whole post, I just wanted to make it clear that this is answering him.

Yeah, I totally agree with you despite being a marvel hater. And I agree that marvel is getting consistently darker, which is the reason I enjoy it a lot. For the same reason I enjoyed DKR, The Crow, Watchmen and other similar books. For the same reason my favorite movies are stuff like "happyness" and "amores perros" which make your casual movie watcher want to kill himself.

But geez... dont make it out that people are persecuting those who dont like marvel. In this forum its preaching to the crowd... almost everyone here wants comics to be the way they where 20 - 30 years ago and they find a lot of that in DC (except for the occasional sexual assault and bullet in the head) and I say "more power to them". Personally I like a darker marvel and if anything Im just opposed to them publizising the death of Captain America. I think it's a great political statement and a story with potential but by making it public it blurs the lines of integrity (and let's you guys yell "sellout!") while limiting options. I think they should totally go the DKR route. Captain fakes his death, he goes underground. But if he's dead-dead I'll keep reading a lot of marvel and a little DC, I mean it's not like Nextwave, Exiles, American Virgin, Astonishing X-men and similar comics where never published because one hero got shot. I dont over react about comics, and it bugs me when people act like somebody just went back in time and ruined their childhood over a current story in a pulpy action and shock oriented medium.

[BentonGrey]

For me at least, it's not about my childhood, it's not about nostalgia, it's not about fond remeberances....it's about the way I view the world.  I hardly read mainstream comics when I was a kid, because the only place I could find them, the grocery store, never had continuing series.  They'd have an issue of Captain America one week, Batman the next, and Sonic the Hedgehog the week after that. 

If you know how I feel about these issues and you don't like what I have to say, you might as well not bother reading what I've written below.

[spoiler]Anyroad, I respect that some people have a penchant for darker stories....although I think that's a symptom of the cultural movements that I oppose (don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that there is something wrong with people who like these things, just that, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need to glorify our darker sides.  I like stories like that occasionally too).  However, those people can have Vertigo, or The Ultimates, but there is no where for people like me to go.  Our favorite characters are dead, whether they've taken a bullet to head or not.  They are dead because what was once a medium that encapsulated the heroic ideal is now a money making machine.  In a fallen world the things that sell are, perhaps, those things that are the worst possible influences on us.  We shouldn't be reading stories about rapists and murderers, we should be reading stories about sacrifice and self denial, because it is these things that make us better people..........[/spoiler]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a rant..... 

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

What I'm seeing here is a vicious cycle.  Marvel (and to a lesser extent of late, DC) put out a big shocker event to get publicity.  People come and buy that issue, but aren't avid fans and don't bother and buy anything else.  Meanwhile, former fans are put off by this.  After a bit sales are lower than before, so they arrange another big event and the cycle repeats itself.

So maybe they are gaining short term, but they're losing big long term.

DC does seem to be trying to correct this sort of thing, however, Blue Beetle's recent death notwithstanding.

[Podmark]

Just to clarify what I was saying. My issue is simply that it bugs me when people decide to give up on an entire line of comics on a principle. Obviously if you don't enjoy or aren't interested in something then you shouldn't pick it up.

Marvel isn't all Civil War and death, of course the remaining titles may simply not interest you, and that's fine. But I don't like the idea that someone wouldn't even take a look at them just because Captain America died. It's not really fair to the creators involved.

[Blkcasanova247]

Why shouldn't it be about a principle? Captain America is the character that brought me into comic books going on 25 years now and gatewayed me into other marvel titles. The pervading theme so far in the "616" universe to me is a pretty bleak one. I've been stuggling with this feeling for a bit of time now in comics across the board.......people like what they like....I've got no quams with anybody liking or wanting to read and see darker and more "realistic" stories; god bless ya! However for me I can't and don't want to imagine a Marvel U without Steve Rogers Captain America. I know in my heart of hearts the character will be back....but back for what? A fresh take? A new angle? If that's what down the road then leave Steve Rogers dead. Today for me was a bit of a punch in the gut....I felt bad...all day long. I guess that Marvel has been successful in evoking that strong and visceral of an emotion from me and a lot of other Captain America fans whom I'm sure had a similar reaction...so hat's off to ya Marvel Comics. It's not an easy thing for me to say that "I'm done with Marvel" and all those great artist and creators work for that company but today that's the way I feel. I feel as though they taken a thing that meant something to me, dipped in sugar and then threw it in the dumpster. So today I can't support the company....I don't know what tommorow will bring.

[Revenant]

Hey now, I have the same disgust for both companies...I'm an equal opportunity curmudgen.  Seriously, I doubt that many people are just beating up on Marvel, it's been said a couple of times that DC does the same kind of things....I mean, look at Supes!

Look at Superman and Wonder Woman... he's under mind-control by killer Max Lord, who threatens to use him as a WMD.  Wonder Woman kills Max in a moment of extreme lazy writing... and subsequently mars her character as a symbol of peace, freedom and equality.  One moment of sensationalist, weak plot driven greed ruined a 60+ year old super heroine.

Superman on the other hand doesn't stand up for his "best friend" in court.  He lets her reputation take the fall, all the while whining about how she killed a guy (when short years ago they had him murder three captive criminals).

I want to stick with my back-issues for now, until people who actually care about heroes (and not dollars) start writing comics again.  But I am liking the new JLA so far.  Not loving it, but liking it.

[BatWing]

is gay that capt died by snipe <_<

[Zippo]

I really didn't mind Cap getting shot. I'd be pretty mad if Punisher actually took up the mantle.

Give the sheild to Patriot, he can hold onto it until Cap is eventually brought back.

[Protomorph]

This actually seems to me as a fairly logical conclusion to the story.

Civil War has always been about one thing: Fear. If the populace is scared enough they will give up their comfort levels to feel safe. In this case, they're afraid of rampant superheroes, and the casualties that reult from it. They're not afraid of the villains doing this--they're the villains. They're supposed to be evil like that. So, to placate the population that would eventually outlaw them completely, they (Tony and Reed) instead throw them a bone -- making themselves official. It's a good compromise, and I'm sure, always intending it to be temporary, until the citizenry relaxes.

Opposing this lack of freedom is the symbol of Freedom itself: Cap. In the end, he sees this isn't about freedom. It isn't about the law. It's not even about doing what is right. It's all about throwing the people a bone. So, he surrenders. and gets assassinated. He is never beaten. He is never taken down by a superior force. He is not crushed by an enemy. He chooses to stop fighting, and is made a martyr by a cowardly act. No glory in that, because Cap is not Thor. Thor sacrificed his people on the altar of glory, and what did it get them? Nothing but "Designer Imposter" Thor. (And if they can clone him, why not Cap?)

I predict that Cap's death will make people see that the law is unjust, and it will lead to it being repealed. Then he can come back and be welcomed as a hero again. A Symbol of Hope and Liberty reborn with the  fight against injustice. Iron Man understands this. He's willing to play the bad guy, knowing the eventual outcome will be beter for it. He does what he does because it is better to have Legal heroics then Fascism and slaughter with Sentinels. All of the X-men future stories featuring Dead mutants also prominently feature dead Fantastic Fours and Spidermans. The Anti-mutant sentiment does indeed affect all those with powers, even non-mutants. Reed and Tony know this all too well. That's why they speak out against Mutant Registration and champion Mutant rights. It isn't even comparable to superhero registration, because of the inherant racism involved. The Superhero Registration Act even affects those without powers, like Hawkeye and Punisher.

In closing...


people, relax already. You're playing into their hands. This is what they want; Controversy. Like most things in comics, this too shall pass.

[Sword]

I assume, from what may be trust in Bru, that SHIELD is involved. Involved to the point of keeping the real Cap hidden with Nick Fury, and sending a Life Model Decoy in his place.

Not everyone who writes at marvel are jerks. One major Joe Q caused event is not enough to get me to stop buying marvel. Not even three major Joe Q inspired events. I have faith that there are some writers who will reverse this whole mess.

[detourne_me]

it was actually Bru's and Tom Breevort's idea to kill him,  if you read the Joe Q interview at CBR, it really puts things into perspective.
i'm really looking forward to fallen son now, after learning what its about.

[cripp12]

In Memorium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45WtQ9BqSM

good find.

[Uncle Yuan]

Just to clarify what I was saying. My issue is simply that it bugs me when people decide to give up on an entire line of comics on a principle. Obviously if you don't enjoy or aren't interested in something then you shouldn't pick it up.

While this event may only affect one or a few titles it is indicative of the way Marvel does business.  If you don't like the way a company does business, why should you not refuse to buy their product?  I think it's perfectly reasonable to "boycot" the company if you disagree with their business model.

Now I stopped buying comics years ago.  It really became a price thing with me - I found it really hard to justify $2.75 and issue, especially when my monthly pull was on the order of 20 titles.  I can't say I've missed them all that much, really.  I do enjoy spending the afternoon reading graphic novels in the bookstore or library, though.

[B A D]

Dude, the People at Barnes and Noble must hate you.

[Podmark]

While this event may only affect one or a few titles it is indicative of the way Marvel does business.  If you don't like the way a company does business, why should you not refuse to buy their product?  I think it's perfectly reasonable to "boycot" the company if you disagree with their business model.

I tend to see things from multiple angles so its usually difficult for me to completely understand boycotts.

Was the decision to kill Captain America a creative decision or a business decision? Both of course but there are different levels. I honestly do believe that the people involved do believe they are going to tell good stories, but the stories they are going to tell aren't always going to interest everyone.

But that's not really my issue, what I'm really trying to say is that not not everyone at Marvel is a part of this. My only true example that I can think of is again Spider-Girl. This title is entirely detached from the Quesada regime both story-wise and creatively (with the exception of the decision to relaunch to a #1) and the title stands for entirely different things than most other titles in the publishing line. There really is nothing I can think of that Quesada's Marvel could do to ever make me consider dropping it. Now if the quality of the book dropped, or I found myself uninterested in it, then yeah. But at the moment those things will have nothing to do with Quesada's inner creative circle.

And the truth is that there are other books and creators that are similar to it, and I just find it unfair to drop them simply because Captain America died (and all the other stuff thats going on). Essentially I find it to be about boycotting an entirety of things when really there's only a specific group you have a problem with. Kinda like boycotting all branches of a restaurant because the manager at one location was rude to you. You could make the rationalization that by buying any Marvel book your paying into Quesada's pocket - and maybe you are, I'm not sure how individual title sales are divided up into the company, but I do know that you would be cutting into the paycheck's of the creators of said individual title that you enjoy. And remember that this is all on the basis that there is still something you enjoy at the company.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Can someone verify the accuracy of this? It was on Wikipedia, which is dreadful for accuracy, but I wanted to get a quick catch-up on Cap's activities from the past two years or so.

[spoiler]"Through the Winter Soldier and Falcon's immediate action upon the attack, it is revealed that the assassination was orchestrated by the Red Skull; the sniper was Crossbones; and Sharon Carter, under a hypnotic suggestion by Dr. Faustus, was the person who shot Rogers in the stomach. Sharon is later contacted by the Skull's other operative, Sin, who uses a trigger phrase to give Sharon her memory back, making her realize she has killed the man she loved."[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

I haven't read it personally, but everything I've read online (which is significant) is in agreement.

[BentonGrey]

In Memorium:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a45WtQ9BqSM

good find.

Thanks Cripp.....I thought it was pretty fitting.  I REALLY want to get a hold of that movie.  For years I've had a vague memory of its existence from seeing a scene or two when I was a kid, and now I've finally tracked it down.

[Talavar]

I think it's quite possible that Captain America isn't dead, actually...

[spoiler]
As, in the issue, he isn't dead when we last see him, we're only told later that he died.  Also, in Civil War: the Initiative, Ms. Marvel makes the claim that he's alive to Spider-woman
[/spoiler]

[Shazam]

I stopped collecting comics in the mid 90's. I've read a few graphic novels since and I have to say, Comics ain't what they used to be. They are just a big pile of the smelly stuff. I was really cheesed off at DC for killing of Supes, then to add insult to injury they turned him into a damn energy being. Marvel I never really had a gripe with, but I have now. Killing off Captain America/Steve Rogers is so lame. Marvel, you must really be struggling to make a living, thats all I can say and if you do bring him back, that will be just as lame. Remember Dallas? Well these so called writers must have loved that storyline when they were younger.

[crimsonquill]

I think it's quite possible that Captain America isn't dead, actually...

[spoiler]Uhm.. Tal, The issue shows his body in the morgue with red blood staining the sheets in the last few pages of the issue and an autopsy will be done in the next issue which confirms that it's Steve Rogers. They even show a glimpse under the above sheets to reveal that his eyes are wide open and quite lifeless. Whoever was shot in front of the courthouse is definitly dead. What Ms Marvel told Jessica was just information to calm her down and allow the SHIELD agents to capture her - but it will probably be 2 years before we know what actually happened once Steve's body was taken away after he was mortally wounded. Especially since 2009 is when the Captian America movie is to be released and what better way to bring back winghead then with the hype of a major motion picture.

What I'm going to love to see is Thor returning and discovering that not only Black Goliath was killed by an imposter of himself but Captain America was murdered at the end of the Civil War and that Tony Stark was responsible for it all. Forget the Hulk War coming... Blondie is going to be mighty ticked off and nobody wants to get a God angry.[/spoiler]

- CrimsonQuill

[lugaru]

Hmm.... Thor... Hulk... maybe some kind of original avengers lineup against stark?

Oh btw... I've been reading tons of articles about suspended animation used to keep somebody with extreme blood loss alive... and since the Cap is no stranger to suspended animation It is also possible that his body might achieve a super low metabolic state and at some point when healed he'll just come back to life. You know... as a comic book pseudo science exuce of course.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Maybe it was a Skrull.

[cmdrkoenig67]

is gay that capt died by snipe <_<

What?  A homosexual killed Cap?  If not, you'd better edit your post, buddy.

:angry:

[steamteck]

And Marvel just keeps giving me a reason not to buy their comics...

...way to go guys. Snuff an icon with a snipers bullet and not a heroic act.

When you start having a lack of respect for your own characters like that... why should I have any for them either?

Exactly how I feel. Not much to do though. You can only write and complain so much and I'm already not buying Marvel.

[steamteck]

While this event may only affect one or a few titles it is indicative of the way Marvel does business.  If you don't like the way a company does business, why should you not refuse to buy their product?  I think it's perfectly reasonable to "boycot" the company if you disagree with their business model.

I tend to see things from multiple angles so its usually difficult for me to completely understand boycotts.

Was the decision to kill Captain America a creative decision or a business decision? Both of course but there are different levels. I honestly do believe that the people involved do believe they are going to tell good stories, but the stories they are going to tell aren't always going to interest everyone.

But that's not really my issue, what I'm really trying to say is that not not everyone at Marvel is a part of this. My only true example that I can think of is again Spider-Girl. This title is entirely detached from the Quesada regime both story-wise and creatively (with the exception of the decision to relaunch to a #1) and the title stands for entirely different things than most other titles in the publishing line. There really is nothing I can think of that Quesada's Marvel could do to ever make me consider dropping it. Now if the quality of the book dropped, or I found myself uninterested in it, then yeah. But at the moment those things will have nothing to do with Quesada's inner creative circle.

And the truth is that there are other books and creators that are similar to it, and I just find it unfair to drop them simply because Captain America died (and all the other stuff thats going on). Essentially I find it to be about boycotting an entirety of things when really there's only a specific group you have a problem with. Kinda like boycotting all branches of a restaurant because the manager at one location was rude to you. You could make the rationalization that by buying any Marvel book your paying into Quesada's pocket - and maybe you are, I'm not sure how individual title sales are divided up into the company, but I do know that you would be cutting into the paycheck's of the creators of said individual title that you enjoy. And remember that this is all on the basis that there is still something you enjoy at the company.

I find NOTHING good in present marvel. They killed Cap but also for years have done nothing but defile their classic characters. I never tryed spider-girl and its a pity if she would get nailed in the fallout but more than worth it to me. Any boycott is really silly to me anyway because I almost get physically sick when I read any modern Marvel. Truth to tell all the real characters died long ago.

[steamteck]

Just to clarify what I was saying. My issue is simply that it bugs me when people decide to give up on an entire line of comics on a principle. Obviously if you don't enjoy or aren't interested in something then you shouldn't pick it up.

Marvel isn't all Civil War and death, of course the remaining titles may simply not interest you, and that's fine. But I don't like the idea that someone wouldn't even take a look at them just because Captain America died. It's not really fair to the creators involved.

Then they shouldn't have been stupid enough to kill the legend. I loath the idea that they've taken great characters and turned them into drek. Marvel is like a TV show that has gone on too long. It would be be better for it to disappear before the magic is completely forgotten. If they hate the characters so much they should stop publishing them and use new characters for their sad little universe. Captain America is the soul of the Marvel universe now we know it has no soul.

[steamteck]

For me at least, it's not about my childhood, it's not about nostalgia, it's not about fond remeberances....it's about the way I view the world.  I hardly read mainstream comics when I was a kid, because the only place I could find them, the grocery store, never had continuing series.  They'd have an issue of Captain America one week, Batman the next, and Sonic the Hedgehog the week after that. 

If you know how I feel about these issues and you don't like what I have to say, you might as well not bother reading what I've written below.

[spoiler]Anyroad, I respect that some people have a penchant for darker stories....although I think that's a symptom of the cultural movements that I oppose (don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that there is something wrong with people who like these things, just that, in a perfect world, we wouldn't need to glorify our darker sides.  I like stories like that occasionally too).  However, those people can have Vertigo, or The Ultimates, but there is no where for people like me to go.  Our favorite characters are dead, whether they've taken a bullet to head or not.  They are dead because what was once a medium that encapsulated the heroic ideal is now a money making machine.  In a fallen world the things that sell are, perhaps, those things that are the worst possible influences on us.  We shouldn't be reading stories about rapists and murderers, we should be reading stories about sacrifice and self denial, because it is these things that make us better people..........[/spoiler]

I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a rant..... 

It wasn't a rant it  resounded to my inner truth.

[BlueBard]

I think the "Fallen Son" series, not to mention the ongoing Captain America title, will really show whether Marvel has a solid story behind all of this, or if it's all just hype.  As always, time will tell.

Since I'm still not buying Marvel comics, I'll have to find out secondhand (probably here) whether they pull it off successfully or not.

I think we get the point that a lot of fans are outraged by the event.  I'm not going to beat on that dead horse anymore, if you'll pardon the morbid expression under these circumstances.

At this point, I'm interested in what Captain America meant to the fans and how his fictional death affects them.  I'm also interested in speculation about what it means to the Marvel Universe as a whole.

I have to confess that I was never a huge Captain America fan.  But still, the fact that he stood for moral values means something to me.  Also, his presence in the MU was sort of a comfortable certainty... even if you weren't specifically following him, you KNEW that he was out there fighting for truth and justice.  You never doubted in him.

Now that he's dead... well... that comforting presence, that strength, isn't there anymore.  No matter who they put in the uniform, there's going to be room to doubt that he will fill Steve Rogers' boots and carry the shield honorably.