The Great Whitewashing Thread of 2016

[Tomato]

I kinda agreed that this discussion was kinda devouring every thread ever, and it's one that kinda transcends any single movie or show anyway. Plus, I figure if I make a single thread for it, those who are so inclined can just go nuts here and everyone who doesn't want to discuss this can just avoid the thread.

Anyway, first things first: I saw a NC video today talking about the two movies that are getting hit by whitewashing claims (Ghost in the Shell and Dr Strange) and while I'm not 100% in the same boat Doug is, my opinion is similar in that I don't think either is as significant as people are making them out to be, but it's still a discussion that needs to happen.

That being said... Benton made a point in the Thor thread about focusing on characters with varied ethnicities, rather than changing existing characters, and I wanted to address that here. See, while I do wholeheartedly agree that shifting focus onto characters who maybe aren't as well known is preferable, it becomes a problem once you start moving past cookie cutter checkboxes of "white or black", or "male or female." For example, name 10 major asian characters at Marvel who aren't X-men. I actively went on lists looking for asian characters, and 90% of the one's I've heard of are either X-men related, or they're martial artists. And that's not to say characters that started as a stereotype can't be given life beyond those beginnings... Like most people, I'm interested in seeing what Netflix does with Shang Chi. But a good chunk of people I work with are Filipino, and it's hard for me to justify why I have more Asian people working in one department of a tiny hospital in Maryland then seem to exist in the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a whole.

Now again, I'm not razzing on Dr Strange here... let's be real, the Ancient One might have a role in Dr Strange's origin, but s/he could be a trained monkey for all I care. But on the other hand, I get why this stuff is frustrating for people. Representation in media is important, and superheroes are a big part of that now.

[HarryTrotter]

Well,Dr Strange thing is political.And GiTS thing is plain retarded.Scarlet Johanson,really?

[Talavar]

The Doctor Strange one was going to be an issue either way.  I really feel, if Marvel had done a canonical version of the Ancient One, a lot of the same people most outraged by the whitewashing would be angry about the stereotyping instead.  Then, like Spade mentioned, the political hot potato of Tibet in regards to the large film market in China, and it was inevitable that Marvel cast differently I guess.  At least they tried to do something interesting by playing up Tilda Swinton's androgynous and otherworldly appearance.

[Tomato]

See, I'm actually forgiving in both circumstances... this isn't like the two recent egypt based films where the cast was CLEARLY made up of white people for the sake of selling the films to the studio. Regarding GitS, A. Scarlet Johansson genuinely looks the part, B. the character was NEVER strictly Japanese (she's a robot.) C. The creator of the character and the japanese populace are less bothered by it than us, and D. there is still japanese-american actors in the film, so while the titular character is white, the japanese populace is still getting some representation in the film (as opposed to the recently bombed Egypt based films, which were pretty much all white actors)

As for Dr Strange... yeah, as I said, I don't care. It's a shame to lose another asian character (again, we don't have too many yet) but that's like whining that Dr. Yinsin wasn't asian back in Iron Man. Who cares? it's a character only in the origin story, not one that'll be a thing for movies going forward.

[Talavar]

See, I'm actually forgiving in both circumstances... this isn't like the two recent egypt based films where the cast was CLEARLY made up of white people for the sake of selling the films to the studio. Regarding GitS, A. Scarlet Johansson genuinely looks the part, B. the character was NEVER strictly Japanese (she's a robot.) C. The creator of the character and the japanese populace are less bothered by it than us, and D. there is still japanese-american actors in the film, so while the titular character is white, the japanese populace is still getting some representation in the film (as opposed to the recently bombed Egypt based films, which were pretty much all white actors)

As for Dr Strange... yeah, as I said, I don't care. It's a shame to lose another asian character (again, we don't have too many yet) but that's like whining that Dr. Yinsin wasn't asian back in Iron Man. Who cares? it's a character only in the origin story, not one that'll be a thing for movies going forward.

Oh I agree.  Ghost in the Shell, well, I don't have a dog in that race.  As to Dr. Strange, it doesn't bother me personally there either.  Asian characters in the MCU films are pretty rare (I can only think of Dr. Cho in Avengers 2 and Hogun in Thor 1 & 2), but the Ancient One is not a really deep (or long term) character anyway.

[BWPS]

Well,Dr Strange thing is political.And GiTS thing is plain retarded.Scarlet Johanson,really?

Sweet, I was thinking people were just going to be racist in this thread but you pulled out a jab at the mentally handicapped right off the bat! Great contributions as always man.

[Shogunn2517]

Quick question...

I'm not a Ghost in the Shell fan or anything, so I can't say for sure... but... Could it be that they are just making a western version of the film?  Like "The Ring" was a remake of a japanese horror movie "Ring".  I suppose you can say they White Washed the movie too.. But I know the character names are the same in the moving coming out, but it might just be their version of it.

[Shogunn2517]

Speaking of Marvel Whitewashing...

Do they get any credit for casting Olivia Munn and Ben Kingsley in their roles to play their characters with Asian roots?

[Tomato]

Quick question...

I'm not a Ghost in the Shell fan or anything, so I can't say for sure... but... Could it be that they are just making a western version of the film?  Like "The Ring" was a remake of a japanese horror movie "Ring".  I suppose you can say they White Washed the movie too.. But I know the character names are the same in the moving coming out, but it might just be their version of it.

That's honestly the impression I get as well. Again, I think this is a case of people who don't have a foot in that race who are making the stink, because the actual Japanese people who everyone thinks they're championing honestly don't care. the video even has clips pulled from news stations who are going out and asking people on the street in Japan.

Speaking of Marvel Whitewashing...

Do they get any credit for casting Olivia Munn and Ben Kingsley in their roles to play their characters with Asian roots?

Really, I feel it just comes down to how they look and how they're portraying the characters. In the case of Olivia Munn... I have not seen the film, but she LOOKS like Psylocke and she's a cool Asian character and to a certain extent that's all that matters.

As for Ben Kingsley... not so much. I'm not going to go into the whole logistics of the Mandarin issue (the director did not want to do the Mandarin, and the studio and the fans basically forced him to do the Mandarin.) but the Mandarin in that movie is not Asian, and even if he had been, he was the villain of the movie.

[HarryTrotter]

Look,Im not championing anyone.Just saying Scarlet Johanson is not the best choice for the role.And yes,the movie is supposed to be set in Japan.
And the productions decision to use filters to make her look more asian is also problematic.
Thats all I gotta say about that.

[spydermann93]

Wait, is Psylocke Asian?

It thought she was the daughter of two British people. *scratches head*

I don't really know anything about her, so sorry if I'm getting this wrong.

[HarryTrotter]

Yeah,but the host body is japanese.Its complicated.

[Shogunn2517]

Lol.  Next thing you know Captain America will come out as a secret Hydra agent......

[spydermann93]

Yeah,but the host body is japanese.Its complicated.

Ah, I think I know what you're talking about. Is it that whole "Lady Mandarin" thing?

I thought that somebody just took over her mind, not that her mind was swapped.

[JeyNyce]

Hey guys

Just wanted to let you all know that this topic was reported to the Mods & Admins.  So far I see nothing wrong, so let keep it that way.  Thanks again

[GhostMachine]

Psylocke's mind was switched with another character's, and her original body is now dead.

As for the great whitewashing, what about also stupidly casting other races/genders when they clearly don't fit? Laverne Cox is going to be in a new version of Rocky Horror....as Frank N Furter. There's also talk about the possibility of a black James Bond. (The James Bond race switch only makes sense in `James Bond' being a code name is in play. Cox as Frank N Furter makes no sense AT ALL.)

[Talavar]

Psylocke's mind was switched with another character's, and her original body is now dead.

As for the great whitewashing, what about also stupidly casting other races/genders when they clearly don't fit? Laverne Cox is going to be in a new version of Rocky Horror....as Frank N Furter. There's also talk about the possibility of a black James Bond. (The James Bond race switch only makes sense in `James Bond' being a code name is in play. Cox as Frank N Furter makes no sense AT ALL.)

Let's all repeat--there is almost no continuity in James Bond films.  There is so much of a tangled mess that a sudden ethnicity change wouldn't even make the top 10.  Seriously, at this point trying to fit all of Bond into one continuity only makes sense if he's some sort of renegade Time Lord (particularly with the oh-so-stupid codename theory shot down in Skyfall).

I don't get the problem with Laverne Cox.  What's the issue there?  She's trans, the character is also....  I'm not getting it.

[daglob]

(edited): As for the great whitewashing, what about also stupidly casting other races/genders when they clearly don't fit? There's also talk about the possibility of a black James Bond. (The James Bond race switch only makes sense in `James Bond' being a code name is in play.)

Have you seen the original Casino Royale?

[HarryTrotter]

Werent Craig movies a complete reboot?So Skyfall doesnt reach really far.
Then again,his wifes death has been referenced in almost every incarnation.So,it was meant to be the same person,but there is some  comic book time involved?

[GhostMachine]

Daglob, do you mean the one done for tv where Bond was made into an American named Jimmy Bond? Or the comedy with David Niven and Woody Allen?

I don't get the problem with Laverne Cox.  What's the issue there?  She's trans, the character is also....  I'm not getting it.

The character is a man who dresses in women's clothing, not someone who had a sex change. Changes the dynamic of the song the character sings when he first appears (sing it in your head if you know it and switch the trans words - doesn't sound right, and won't make sense if they don't do that), amongst other things.

But then again, does anyone really think there's someone out there capable of outdoing Tim Curry in the role, anyway?

[daglob]

Daglob, do you mean the one done for tv where Bond was made into an American named Jimmy Bond? Or the comedy with David Niven and Woody Allen?

I don't get the problem with Laverne Cox.  What's the issue there?  She's trans, the character is also....  I'm not getting it.

The character is a man who dresses in women's clothing, not someone who had a sex change. Changes the dynamic of the song the character sings when he first appears (sing it in your head if you know it and switch the trans words - doesn't sound right, and won't make sense if they don't do that), amongst other things.

But then again, does anyone really think there's someone out there capable of outdoing Tim Curry in the role, anyway?

I remembered the Climax version after I wrote this (got that episode on VHS someplace). The best part of that one was Peter Lorre as Le Chiffre.

For those of you who haven't seen the first motion picture version, James Bond is retired and lives a life of contemplation (or something). When M is killed, Bond takes over and re-names several of his agents, including Peter Sellers, Terence Cooper, Woody Allen, Joanna Pettet, Daliah Lavi, and Ursula Andress James Bond in order to confuse the enemy (as well as the audience-then again, the thing has numerous writers and directors). Early in the story, Bond (Niven) complains that his name is already being sullied by some "sexual athlete". Sometimes I think that the best part of the 1967 movie is David Prowse as Frankenstein's Monster.

I don't think anyone is capable of outdoing Tim Curry.

[Talavar]

Werent Craig movies a complete reboot?So Skyfall doesnt reach really far.
Then again,his wifes death has been referenced in almost every incarnation.So,it was meant to be the same person,but there is some  comic book time involved?

The Craig movies rebooted Bond himself, but Judi Dench's M carried over in that role from the Pierce Brosnan era, so it's really all a mess.

[Talavar]

Daglob, do you mean the one done for tv where Bond was made into an American named Jimmy Bond? Or the comedy with David Niven and Woody Allen?

I don't get the problem with Laverne Cox.  What's the issue there?  She's trans, the character is also....  I'm not getting it.

The character is a man who dresses in women's clothing, not someone who had a sex change. Changes the dynamic of the song the character sings when he first appears (sing it in your head if you know it and switch the trans words - doesn't sound right, and won't make sense if they don't do that), amongst other things.

But then again, does anyone really think there's someone out there capable of outdoing Tim Curry in the role, anyway?

The character is described as the "transvestite from Transylvania;"  now 'transvestite' is seen as outmoded/offensive terminology, but he was never just a crossdresser.  And not all trans people feel they need or have had surgery.

That doesn't mean rebooting the Rocky Horror Picture Show is a good idea.  This is almost certain to be a disaster.  But the grounds you objected to this casting on will not have been why.

[crimsonquill]

What really amuses me... all this discussion about Laverne Cox As Frank N Further who is just a whole different person in the role BUT an actual female playing a Transvestite. Nobody is bitching about that as far as I can tell.. just that Frank isn't Tim Curry.

Just a news flash for you folks who are not in the Rocky Horror fan club... follow the casting news. TIM CURRY is in this version (yes, He is alive.. he had a stroke and is in a wheelchair. But he is still around) and is playing Mr. "No-Neck" The Narrator. So if ANYONE had a problem with his role being recast AND being done by a female black actress.. HE WOULD NOT BE IN THIS VERSION HIMSELF!!!! *deep breath* Both Tim and Richard O'Brien (the creator and the original Riff Raff) are Executive Producers and also agreed with other returning cast in surprise cameos that this was to celebrate the show in a whole new version.

- CQ