Freedom Force Historical Preservation and Chowder Society- One last comment.

[spydermann93]

"...going uphill... both ways..."

There are Yahoo Groups for base skins and lightmaps. I'd say not worry about those unless the groups go away. I think most of the variations of the Irrational meshes are available (Is El Diabo Super Sayan still around?).

Say WHAT!?!

[Deaths Jester]

While the base skins shouldn't be part of the original idea, it still would be smart to get them all in case they disappear from YGs.

As for El Diablo Super Sayan...unknown. If it is it would be on a YG most likely.

Off-topic: This whole talk is truly making me feel old and bringing about memories of the old days. Back when we used to skin jackets on male_basic meshes because there were no meshes with jackets and such...back when FF was brand new and everything was new and unexplored. Sigh, I'm just coming to terms of how long I've been skinning for this game and how many of the one's from back then have moved on or aren't with us anymore. And the fact that I'm still here...it doesn't feel right...

Ignore me and my off topicness...just an old goat rambling about the old days...

[Cyber Burn]

That brings me back to the question of how we address Content created by members that we know are no longer with us. We can't really ask for their permission to host their work, but in the same respect, we don't want to lose these treasures either.

[daglob]

Something I've noticed: everybody comes back once in awhile. Miguel Yanke, Thunder, Zapow, Tortuga, Shabobba, Dire Wolf... they have all been here in the past few months. There are probably others who drop in here every once in awhile. I think I'm going to send a few PMs to catch people when they pass through.

I'd say that if someone included a readme that said something like "use this any way you want just give me credit" would be clear. Others who have shuffled off this mortal coil, I don't know. We won't be treating them with disrespect.

[BentonGrey]

On hexes, they are still useful, and it would be great to have access to them.  I often would raid NPI for different hexes for use with different skins or just for random filler characters in a mod.

I feel like, unless they have forbidden sharing or have issues with the community (and I can only really think of one example of that), then it would be better to give materials hosting, even without explicit permission.  This isn't like skoping or kitbashing.  All we're doing is keeping their work available, and I can't imagine anyone really being upset about that, considering we're going to have proper attribution.  As someone already said, if they released it in the first place, they wanted it to be available. 

[Cyber Burn]

As much as I agree with you guys, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a minute.

I have come across a few "Read Me" type Files that specifically say "Do not redistribute this Skin/Mesh/Whatever without my express permission".

So do we go through every single file to find which ones we need permission on? Do we weed those out?

[WyldFyre]

As much as I agree with you guys, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a minute.

I have come across a few "Read Me" type Files that specifically say "Do not redistribute this Skin/Mesh/Whatever without my express permission".

So do we go through every single file to find which ones we need permission on? Do we weed those out?

I think if a readme says "do not redistribute" that's pretty clear that they didn't want their work showing up elsewhere. I'm not sure every file needs to be looked at, but a general sample of 2-3 should be taken, where available, to get a feel for what the artist may have wanted.

I feel like, unless they have forbidden sharing or have issues with the community (and I can only really think of one example of that)

Interestingly, I was just remembering that person and feeling a little sad that their work is off limits. Oh well. On to happier thoughts.

I think I want to use Copper's stuff as the first content to test things out. I am trying to set up a front page with the creator names which will lead to the separate pages of their work (much like Alex does).

Is there a list or cached page of his work?

[daglob]

I'm not sure there is a list of anyone's work.

As far as reading all the readmes: it seems most people use a basic form for these. Reading one or two by a creator should be enough.

[Deaths Jester]

Closest thing to a list of CA's work would be whatever the wayback machine can pull up on FFC. Know he posted a lot of stuff there in the beginning...otherwise, not really a list of stuff by creator around.

[daglob]

Seems like FFC is one that is not at The Wayback Machine. Nor is The Hub.

Although I sent him a spreadsheet I made of Copper's skins.

[Deaths Jester]

Really?!? So www.freedomforcecenter.com doesn't appear in the wayback...weird...

[daglob]

From what I understand, they made it robot-proof, so the Wayback robots never get a copy. Or something like that; It made me think of he forthcoming robot revolution.

[Panther_Gunn]

I would echo BG's sentiments on hexes.  Not everyone is conversant with Nifskope (myself included), so hexes are still useful, especially for older skins that were made for specific hexed meshes (and no suitable "contemporary" replacement has bubbled up).  I've lost count of how many I've dug out of FXForce over the years.

On the inclusion of Copper's work:  am I missing something?  We've collected everything we could find of his in a couple of Yahoo Groups, so wouldn't that count as "current hosting"?  I know I haven't kept up, but would Psycho Pirate's work be a good test subject instead (unless his stuff is already somewhere again)?

For members that have passed on, I don't see any disrespect in making their work available for people to admire again.

For the less prolific creators, I think grouping them into one section would work best (possibly broken up alphabetically, if there's an issue with sheer numbers).  My first impulse would be to call it The Peanut Gallery, but it's not very comic-y.  Rogue's Gallery?  I'm sure there's something good that will occur to someone.

I feel like, unless they have forbidden sharing or have issues with the community (and I can only really think of one example of that)

Interestingly, I was just remembering that person and feeling a little sad that their work is off limits. Oh well. On to happier thoughts.

I had that specific example in mind as well when I made my post yesterday.

[WyldFyre]

On the inclusion of Copper's work:  am I missing something?  We've collected everything we could find of his in a couple of Yahoo Groups, so wouldn't that count as "current hosting"?  I know I haven't kept up, but would Psycho Pirate's work be a good test subject instead (unless his stuff is already somewhere again)?

I only say Copper because of Yahoo's unreliability of late and the fact that with his body of work, I have a large # of skins to build pages off of to use as templates for other works. Psycho Pirate is actually at the top of the list as I really enjoyed his work.

I almost started to try an alphabetical approach, but a lot of the "A"s had only a few skins or hexes and I wanted to save the "group" pages until I am more comfortable with the process. I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 17 GB of skins to sort through. I think roughly 1/3 to maybe 1/2 of them may qualify for this project.  There was a LOT of content produced over the years.

@DaGlob: Thanks for the spreadsheet. Very helpful.

[daglob]

There are a bunch of Psycho Pirate's skins (maybe all of them) among the stuff CB has, and I think I may have sent WF a copy of his web pages... He might be a good choice, since I don't think it is hosted anyplace.

[John Jr.]

This is a impressive work, thanks to all the involved.
I believe we really need to have a "Museum" of sorts, with all kind of non-hosted files, because more and more sites are just going down. Older members (like myself) have backups, but we need create a way to preserve our history (and the very useful content of older creators) for new players.
This said, I agree with CB, we should leave alone the work of guys who left any kind of instructions against redistribution. About creators who left us, I'm with Panther_Gunn, preserve their work it's a way to honor them. Of course we should be able to remove the works of any creator who as us to do so.
Of course, any of my skopes/skins and mods can be re-hosted if needed.

[Cyber Burn]

Seems like FFC is one that is not at The Wayback Machine. Nor is The Hub.

Although I sent him a spreadsheet I made of Copper's skins.

Hey Daglob, could I please get a copy of that as well?

[Artemis]

It's been so long since I checked into FR But it's so good to know people are maintaining the community's legacy; with that said I obviously allow anything I've made to be used freely - if anyone can find use for any skins or anything I've made they are welcome to use them however they wish.
I do miss FF - the game, the characters and the community they brought together helped me through adolescence and helped me discover my creativity which I will forever be greatful for.

I hope anyone who buys the game on steam or other platforms manages to find FR and the wonderful people who make it what it is.

[WyldFyre]

Small update. 

Been working on this as I can. Had a few medical issues come up. Nothing serious, just time consuming.

I have decided to go with Psycho Pirates stuff first. (Fewer files to upload and set up.) I want to try to get a template for the pages so that other artists will be quicker to get up.

If all goes well, I hope to have something up next week. I'll keep you posted and I'll post in the Site updates forum when it is ready.

[Cyber Burn]

Glad to see you stop by Artemis, it's always nice to have our Alumni come by. I hope to see you around more often.

[Klauser]

Thanks for the email nudge, daglob - it is great to see a lot of classic names back again!

While I am not much a skinner, I do have a LARGE collection of skins from the early days backed up on external drive.  If there's a skin or mesh that folks are looking for, send out an IM and I'll be happy to check my backups!

[daglob]

Off-topic: This whole talk is truly making me feel old and bringing about memories of the old days. Back when we used to skin jackets on male_basic meshes because there were no meshes with jackets and such...back when FF was brand new and everything was new and unexplored. Sigh, I'm just coming to terms of how long I've been skinning for this game and how many of the one's from back then have moved on or aren't with us anymore. And the fact that I'm still here...it doesn't feel right...

Ignore me and my off topicness...just an old goat rambling about the old days...

Because you did all that stuff, skinning stuff on characters that lacked the proper mesh, working hard on exploring the unknown and pushing the boundaries of what was available at the time, all the rest follows. You and the other "first generation" skinners and meshes expanded interest and kept interest alive when the game hasn't been supported by Irrational Games in years. When I list the people who's stuff I look at, I know I don't usually list you, I usually stop before I get to Psycho-Pirate, Mandate, Robin of Spiritwood, and you, but all of you have taught me and, I'm sure, all the others (and I still haven't figured out what blend mode you have things set to color your older stuff, and do you do it to the brush or the layer?). And look at you new work: simply beautiful.

Looks to me like you still have stuff to teach us. And it might not feel right to you, but we are the ones who benefit from you still being here, and I, for one, appreciate it.

[Deaths Jester]

I usually stop before I get to Psycho-Pirate, Mandate, Robin of Spiritwood, and you, but all of you have taught me and, I'm sure, all the others (and I still haven't figured out what blend mode you have things set to color your older stuff, and do you do it to the brush or the layer?). And look at you new work: simply beautiful.

Looks to me like you still have stuff to teach us. And it might not feel right to you, but we are the ones who benefit from you still being here, and I, for one, appreciate it.

The blend mode depends on how old you want to go with the skins...some of the original ones were done in Paint Sop Pro 10 whose layers are a bit limited....mostly I desatuared the base skin and then laid a layer of colour set either to overlay or multiply..though sometimes soft light...just depended on the colour and such. If it was a solid piece it was just dropped in as normal and if it was stuff like metal or such...depended.  Some times I'd go back in and take an airbrush and spiffy things up.  Once I moved to Electric Freedom, I got my hands on Photoshop 7 and I started working with the brushes and such.  Nowadays I do all my skinning in Painter 11 and use tons of layers and a handful of different brushes to get what I do.  Still...me teach you folks...ha!  I'm just an old goat.

[Cyber Burn]

I've always said that I'm not an artist, and I'll stick with that.

That being said, I do still look at all of our Skinners work, the drunken goat included, and try learn a thing or two. All of your guys' hard work has kept this Community alive, and you guys absolutely deserve your spot in Freedom Force History.

[Tomato]

I'm coming into this late, and forgive me if I'm bringing up a few points that have been covered... I've been skimming the discussion, but there's a lot haven't gotten to. That said, I do support this, and just wanted to touch base on a few things:

-First, I don't know how you're cataloging, but it might be helpful to remember that a few people around here have changed usernames... Bobby69->Vertex being an obvious example, but I know a lot of my early work was credited under Antman Anext. Afghan Ant has also used a pseudonym before, at least for a bit. Figured as one of the people who did it I'd bring it up.
-On a personal level, I know I've lost about 90% of the stuff I've created (I have backups of the stuff on heroforce, but I downloaded that from HF.) and I've had a lot of help from members finding a lot of my old work. If any of that stuff is around, even if a newer version is out on HF, I'm 100% fine with that being re-hosted.

[WyldFyre]

I'm coming into this late, and forgive me if I'm bringing up a few points that have been covered... I've been skimming the discussion, but there's a lot haven't gotten to. That said, I do support this, and just wanted to touch base on a few things:

-First, I don't know how you're cataloging, but it might be helpful to remember that a few people around here have changed usernames... Bobby69->Vertex being an obvious example, but I know a lot of my early work was credited under Antman Anext. Afghan Ant has also used a pseudonym before, at least for a bit. Figured as one of the people who did it I'd bring it up.
-On a personal level, I know I've lost about 90% of the stuff I've created (I have backups of the stuff on heroforce, but I downloaded that from HF.) and I've had a lot of help from members finding a lot of my old work. If any of that stuff is around, even if a newer version is out on HF, I'm 100% fine with that being re-hosted.

Tomato, I was aware of your Anext persona, but didn't know AA had a pseudonym. I have been trying to use DaGlob's web links to get an idea of older content. I visited a lot of these websites in the old days.

I have looked for some of your old stuff in the hopes of you allowing it to be posted. Unfortunately it's harder to track down since most of the resources containing them are gone. I'll PM you regarding a question I have on this.

[Tomato]

IIRC, He used another username briefly to see if he could establish an identity based purely on skills, as opposed to the AfganAnt "brand." I honestly don't even remember what the username was, I just remember that was a thing for awhile.

As for my old stuff... again, I can't be too much help there. My original stuff (the stuff I did as AntmanAnext) was hosted on Electric Freedom, but was all taken down because... well, because I was a thief and kitbashes pieces from a Green Arrow skin because I couldn't be bothered to take 2 extra seconds to do it myself. I was 13 at the time, a notorious kit basher, and not well loved in the community. I do take a bit of pride in a few things though, such as teaming with the Beyonder for a few meshes I worked on in milkshape, such as a Cyclops mesh and a female "The_Ant" model to go with GG's gender bent FF characters. They're not good by modern standards, but for a time when we mostly only had the irrational models, any models to use at all were.

That being said, I DID manage to find an old yahoo group. There's not a ton there, mostly just old versions of my Avatar and OCs, but there's a few other pieces I made in there... a few FX pieces for Prev and my old Ultimate Spider-man skin (which I remember holding onto for forever) but feel free to peruse it if you'd like https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Tomatostuffage/files

Speaking of avatars though... ho boy. I used to have a website that had screens of all the different iterations of Tomato, but I think the most updated version was on NPI, and I lost those files at least a computer ago. I'm not TOO broken up about not having those skins (I have much, MUCH better versions now) but I do miss being able to look back and show how far I've come.

[Cyber Burn]

Hey 'Mato, It's quite possible that I may have some of the NPI stuff floating around on a disk or my External HD. This weekend when I've got some free time, I'd be glad to see what I have and send your way.

[Podmark]

IIRC, He used another username briefly to see if he could establish an identity based purely on skills, as opposed to the AfganAnt "brand." I honestly don't even remember what the username was, I just remember that was a thing for awhile.

It started with an E. I want to say something like Empherus. I remember kicking myself for now realizing it was AA.

I do take a bit of pride in a few things though, such as teaming with the Beyonder for a few meshes I worked on in milkshape, such as a Cyclops mesh and a female "The_Ant" model to go with GG's gender bent FF characters. They're not good by modern standards, but for a time when we mostly only had the irrational models, any models to use at all were.

I have a vague memory of us talking about working together on a model back then. I want to say an Ant-Man mesh, I think was going to do the skin, but I'm not sure my memory is pretty vague.

[detourne_me]

Yeah I think that was it, Pod, or really close to AA's pseudonym anyway. I remember he used it to premiere the Morrison New X-Men skins, and we were all kinda blown away at this guy's 'first' skin. Those skins really were a great step for AA to take though, with super saturated colours and really contrasting highlights and shadows.