Black Widow: Worst character in the Marvel Cinematic Universe

[Spring Heeled Jack]

I've never liked Black Widow in any Marvel Cinematic Universe film she's appeared in.

-Bland, over-obvious sarcasm and tedious deadpan delivery of every line

-Overwrought, implausible fighting skills, even by suspension-of-disbelief standards

-She's, what, 28 but apparently has a zillion years of experience and an overburden of moral and psychological trauma?

-Orange skin and matching hair

-A flat, boring foil for Captain America

Anyone get the feeling she drags down every film she's in? And don't get me started on Hawkeye...

[JeyNyce]

Are you trolling??  This post looks like you're looking to start an argument or you want somebody to prove you wrong.  Which one is it?

[lugaru]

I'm chalking it up to a 'new thread' instead of 'reply' but that said... dude...

Almost everything you say can be attributed to Batman, but it's plausible because he's a MAN.

I have the opposite problem with Black Widow and most of the marvel ladies... I actually like her a bit but it is so rare she gets her own spotlight therefore she is underdeveloped. That said the MAX book (with Yelena, different widow) was great.

[Talavar]

I've never liked Black Widow in any Marvel Cinematic Universe film she's appeared in.

-Bland, over-obvious sarcasm and tedious deadpan delivery of every line

-Overwrought, implausible fighting skills, even by suspension-of-disbelief standards

-She's, what, 28 but apparently has a zillion years of experience and an overburden of moral and psychological trauma?

-Orange skin and matching hair

-A flat, boring foil for Captain America

Anyone get the feeling she drags down every film she's in? And don't get me started on Hawkeye...

Disagree with every point categorically.  Nice that among character critiques, you also slipped in one about her looks.   

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Just not a fan of the film character. Marvel has such a wealth of female characters to spotlight, and they stumbled with Black Widow, who arguably is the highest-profile woman in the cinematic universe.

In the comics she can hold her own and was a great mainstay in the Avengers. In the films, it's just so obvious that the character was hollowed out to suit Scarlett Johansson. An older actress with more gravity would have done the character more justice. And Johansson is a fine actress in other films, but she and Black Widow just don't go together.

Otherwise I'm a big fan of Marvel's films. I was just rewatching The Winter Soldier today and thought this snarky version of Black Widow whipping out one-liners was a bit dull.

Sidenote: In the film she said she was born in 1984, but then later says she worked for the KGB. This may be plausible depending on how pliable your definition of the KGB as an organization is...but it collapsed and was dismantled in 1991. She also mentions escorting a scientist (or diplomat?) in Odessa "five years ago"...when she was 25? Really?

EDIT: She said five years, not 10.

[BWPS]

No way,  she's sassy and super good at kicking butts. She is of great interest and charisma. I'm always happy to see her.

[Tomato]

Dude, I'm with everyone else. You're crazy, and I wanna see a Black Widow solo film.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

If anything, I think her fighting isn't portrayed as effective at enough.  This is mostly because of having to share screentime in every movie she appears in.  She does a couple of  awesome scenes in the Avengers, but needs more, I think.

And yeah, compared to Batman shes downright realistic.  Also Batman has gadgets that can do whatever the writers need him to be able to do at any given moment.  And he outsmarts everyone else on the planet.  [sarcasm]Truly Black Widow is the unbelievable one here[/sarcasm]

[Talavar]

Just not a fan of the film character. Marvel has such a wealth of female characters to spotlight, and they stumbled with Black Widow, who arguably is the highest-profile woman in the cinematic universe.

In the comics she can hold her own and was a great mainstay in the Avengers. In the films, it's just so obvious that the character was hollowed out to suit Scarlett Johansson. An older actress with more gravity would have done the character more justice. And Johansson is a fine actress in other films, but she and Black Widow just don't go together.

Otherwise I'm a big fan of Marvel's films. I was just rewatching The Winter Soldier today and thought this snarky version of Black Widow whipping out one-liners was a bit dull.

Sidenote: In the film she said she was born in 1984, but then later says she worked for the KGB. This may be plausible depending on how pliable your definition of the KGB as an organization is...but it collapsed and was dismantled in 1991. She also mentions escorting a scientist (or diplomat?) in Odessa "five years ago"...when she was 25? Really?

EDIT: She said five years, not 10.

She also mentions starting to work as a spy as a child to Bruce Banner in the Avengers.  I agree that the given timeline doesn't work that well for inclusion with the KGB, but a soldier/spy working at 25 is unbelievable?  Please.

[JeyNyce]

I for one would love to see a Black Widow movie, just to see her origin and when she first met Hawkeye and joined Shield.  I doubt this will happen now because of what's going on in the MCU, but she should get her on movie?

[XStream]

I also liked Johansson's Black Widow. I do see your point that she is possibly the character whose cinematic universe representation is the furthest from the comic. Admittedly I have read very few Avengers comics (unless you count The Ultimates... and I know no one does) but I have always pictured the Black Widow as being a little older and very sophisticated.

But I like her character for the exact opposite reason that I love their Cap, Ironman, and Thor. She is different, but I felt that she accomplished Whedon's goal. She viewed New York from a similar perspective as ourselves. Although she is an experienced spy and knew more about SHIELD than the rest of the team (except Hawkeye) she was still the least powerful member and faced the onslaught side by side with the Marvel big three/four (cause in the Marvel Cinematic Universe you MUST include the Hulk).

You know what I was thinking the other day... I would have really liked to see a Hawkeye movie. Before SHIELD was disbanded, and he commanded a group of SHIELD agents I like the idea that Hawkeye in the cinematic U has lead teams and missions and that he is still a bit of a wildcard. It really disappoints me that this movie won't be made.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

I think characters like Black Widow are difficult to portray as unique. She's basically just a Cold War martial arts spy...clone. If they can boost her personality and separate her more from the catsuit crowd it would go a long way.

[SickAlice]

I'd like to see a solo movie as well. I can get on your overall point which seems to be that the character doesn't have a lot of dimension then again there wasn't a chance to add it. I guess I didn't dislike seeing her because I took that into account in advance and watch her for what she is. I do fully think a solo movie (or any Marvel woman for that matter) despite much business disagreement out there for three simple reasons: 1.) Scarlett can sell a film, currently she's selling some Lucy film (which I heard stinks like puke flavored Pringles, but it got peoples attention nonetheless), 2.) established character as far as the audience outside comic readers is concerned and most importantly as I brought up elsewhere 3.) Disney is the champion of selling lead female hero's. They literally own that market, even if it seems implausible they can shove it down peoples throats, slap some Hypno-Toad venom on it and bring people to the theater to see it and out the back to the store to buy their kids it's merch. Make it centric to her life outside the super hero biz and we'd have a winner and you'd have the depth you need to enjoy the character more. I personally had to be aware they didn't have the decades the comics did to really dig into the character and of course they were going to find a way to work her in...she's a classic Avenger. You know as well as I fans would have sharpened the guillotine blade if she wasn't present as much as they would have if Hawkeye wasn't.

[crimsonquill]

First of all, I would think a Black Widow solo movie would be a lot of fun if they focused on her past as a Russian agent, her history with Winter Soldier, and how she and Hawkeye ended up working together as SHIELD agents. Those three story elements combined alone would be quite a story to watch but still interconnect with the Marvel Cinemaverse to fill in blanks in the Winter Soldier's background.

Black Widow was originally created based on a KGB Myth that they abducted British and/or American children to be brainwashed into sleeper soldiers in training camps and then replanted into their old lives until needed. This myth has been used many times in movies over the years: Telefon (1977), No Way Out (1987). and more recently in Salt (2010). I wouldn't be surprised they revisit this for a modern version of Black Widow's history where she was might have been a sleeper agent in Europe (it would explain her more non-Russian appearance and mannerisms) where she had her runs in with Winter Soldier during years of undercover missions and discovering her life as an agent was only going to lead her to an early death with a red filled journal.

It wouldn't be a "solo" film exactly anyway since Hawkeye and Nick Fury would show up when she evetually joins SHIELD and Winter Soldier would be among the villains for a brief period of time. They established that Hawkeye was the agent who broke her repeated brainwashing (she acknowledge this by saying she owed Hawkeye after snapping him back to reality in The Avengers) and you can clearly see her weaing an Arrow pendent in Captain America 2 and a few photos from Avengers 2 showing they have a close relationship from their past history.

- CQ

[Starman]

Yeah, I agree.

-Bland, over-obvious sarcasm and tedious deadpan delivery of every line

Agreed. I don't like Scarlett Johansson in the role, TBH.

-Overwrought, implausible fighting skills, even by suspension-of-disbelief standards

So true for Iron Man 2, to lesser degrees for Avengers and CA:TWS. Seeing all the heroes facing off with the aliens in The Avengers film, while Black Widow fired away with those tiny pistols, was pretty average.

-She's, what, 28 but apparently has a zillion years of experience and an overburden of moral and psychological trauma?

Black Widow is a Cold War-era character who (since she hasn't had an origin film) hasn't really been updated for the MCU yet (unlike Crimson Dynamo or The Mandarin). She just has a mysterious/unsavoury past. Plus, Scarlett Johansson doesn't really sell the role.

-Orange skin and matching hair

Don't have a problem with this, but I preferred her taller and limber/gymnast build from the comics. Scarlett Johansson doesn't really sell the fight scenes either, IMO.

-A flat, boring foil for Captain America

Agreed ... she's a personality free zone.

And don't get me started on Hawkeye...

If I hadn't been a comic reader and was introduced to the character solely via the films, I'd say Hawkeye was just a SHIELD agent who inexplicably uses a bow and arrow. I liked how the homage to his "villain" origin in The Avengers film via hypnoses by Loki, but Hawkeye has received zero characterisation to date.

[Talavar]

Apparently one of the stumbling blocks to a Black Widow solo film is Scarlett Johansson's contract.  For whatever reason, they'd have to renegotiate for it.  I bet we see a different solo female-led movie before a Black Widow one.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

I wouldn't be averse to a solo film; if they really amped up her characterization and made her more than Cap's feisty little sister it would be worthwhile.

But then it would take away a slot from a better, more epic story possibility, which Marvel seems to be trending toward these days.

[murs47]

-A flat, boring foil for Captain America

I think she's rather busty. But I'm more of a butt guy so what do I know?

[Talavar]

-A flat, boring foil for Captain America

I think she's rather busty. But I'm more of a butt guy so what do I know?

Really?

[murs47]

-A flat, boring foil for Captain America

I think she's rather busty. But I'm more of a butt guy so what do I know?

Really?

Well ya. Just because a grapefruit isn't as big as a watermelon doesn't mean it's small.

[Talavar]

That was more a 'really, this is where this conversation is going?' than anything else.

[Tomato]

Eh... let's be realistic here, Murs is just pointing out the farce this topic has been from the start. As has been pointed out, most of SHJ's problems apply equally to Batman (not to mention Captain America... flat character, incredible amount of martial arts training considering he was never trained, etc) and there is no reason for this topic to exist separate from either the winter soldier thread or the avengers one.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Which part is farcical -- the part where someone disagrees with your opinion or the part where they're not being shut down for disagreeing with your opinion?

I mean, if you don't like the topic and don't have any response except attacking the person who posted it, that is trolling. Just ignore the topic.

I posted this thread to comment on the toss-away attitude I feel the character was given and how Black Widow as a character is underwhelming and has been squandered. I'm thinking about the state of women characters in the Marvel Cinematic Universe in general now, and others have something to say about it as well.

So again, the topic isn't hurting anyone except those who feel personally insulted by being disagreed with, which seems to be the case with you.

[Tomato]

Umm... see, I think you're confusing me for someone else. I called this thread silly... which, if I have to go down the list of reason this thread is silly, being on a forum dedicated to a decades old game that no one at marvel will ever read and all, we will be here all day. YOU blew up about those comment, and YOU posted a four paragraph rant about how if I disagree with you I don't have to read this thread and I should just not comment, and how I'm taking this personally or whatever.

Yes, I think this thread is pointless. Many of the arguments you're making apply just as much, if not moreso, to male heroes and I don't see you posting lengthy discussions about them (again, my point about Captain America having martial arts training despite having no explicable reason for learning them, and about how he's MUCH more bland than she is) which, combined with digs against her appearance and her age, make it hard to take the discussion seriously. The whole thing comes across more as an attack on Johanson, rather than (as it should be) a discussion about the broader problems with female superheroes in the film industry.

I realize that might be what you wanted it to be, but from my perspective, that's not what you actually posted.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

The whole thing comes across more as an attack on Johanson, rather than (as it should be) a discussion about the broader problems with female superheroes in the film industry.

Just not a fan of the film character. Marvel has such a wealth of female characters to spotlight, and they stumbled with Black Widow, who arguably is the highest-profile woman in the cinematic universe.

I think characters like Black Widow are difficult to portray as unique. She's basically just a Cold War martial arts spy...clone. If they can boost her personality and separate her more from the catsuit crowd it would go a long way.

I wouldn't be averse to a solo film; if they really amped up her characterization and made her more than Cap's feisty little sister it would be worthwhile.

I posted this thread to comment on the toss-away attitude I feel the character was given...

On topic and talking about the character and/or female superheroes in film every...single...post. Not the actress.

Oops -- my mistake. I did mention Johansson:

And Johansson is a fine actress in other films, but she and Black Widow just don't go together.

And I mentioned the orange hair she sports in those films and how, with the catsuit, she lacks the visual impact that the more colorful male leads have. Did I mention her body or crassly appraise her curves? Nope. Why would I?

And that is the extent of what I've said so far. I'm more interested in staying on topic, so that's what I'll do, if I have something else to say about Black Widow in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

[Starman]

Eh... let's be realistic here, Murs is just pointing out the farce this topic has been from the start. As has been pointed out, most of SHJ's problems apply equally to Batman (not to mention Captain America... flat character, incredible amount of martial arts training considering he was never trained, etc) and there is no reason for this topic to exist separate from either the winter soldier thread or the avengers one.

And that is the extent of what I've said so far. I'm more interested in staying on topic, so that's what I'll do, if I have something else to say about Black Widow in the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

A Black Widow & Hawkeye Marvel Team-Up movie that explores both of their origins to the point where they join SHIELD would be interesting, since both characters really need fleshing out. Or a Black Widow standalone film, like "Salt" (which was way better than I ever expected it to be), but with super-powered villains and secret agents.

[detourne_me]

While I wasn't much of a fan of Salt (slept through most of the movie in the theater and didn't miss a beat when it came to the 'reveal') I thought Columbiana was an excellent femme fatale origin story!

There's also La Femme Nikita in that same mold. If Marvel wanted to do something similar, they might want to differentiate the movie by adding Hawkeye in there too.
It's a little funny because Black Widow predates a lot of those other femme fatales, but if they followed her strict origin story, it would seem a little cliche.  I think this is the point SHJ is making.

The same thing kind of occurred with John Carter of Mars, and let's face it, Disney doesn't want that to happen again. (Lone Ranger was even worse in my opinion, though)

[lugaru]

Or they could do something like Long Kiss Goodnight. Basically a Black Widow and Nick Fury team up, heavy on the spy thriller stuff with some light moments and a peek into some really dark black widow past.

That is probably still my favorite action movie with a female lead (barely edging out the Alien movies).

[detourne_me]

Which also stars Sam Jackson! Nice!