Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!

[kkhohoho]

Haha, exactly, and that was done in part to avoid the 'old Asian master' sterotype, which just put them in hot water for a DIFFERENT reason.

Actually, I'm pretty darn sure it was because China wasn't going to let a movie starring a Tibetan anywhere near their country, and Marvel gets a LOT of moolah from the orient. It was either lose China or make the Ancient One a white chick, so what did you think they were gonna go with?

[Shogunn2517]

Landmines.... seemingly everywhere.  I mean, I suppose I could have gotten upset about them switching the Ancient One.  Although they didn't just fully "White-Wash" the character. She was specifically made Welsh, not Tibetan. They've changed the character, like they did with Thor's racially different characters).

Honestly, I can understand some of the friction.  But the character is/was a white guy.  I think, if I read right, they had the basis was Kung-Fu from the 70, which wasn't much different.  I think the bigger gripe could be the lack of prominent Asian characters in comics overall.  I mean, as an Black guy myself, I suppose I can count my blessings with the aforementioned Luke Cage with a pretty much all black cast.  Blade had a whole franchise.  Storm has been prominently featured in four X-Men movies.  Nick Fury being the glue in the MCU.  Even DC's shows has Black faces in their shows and even Black Lightning coming out pretty soon too.  Where are the Asian folks?  Grim Hogan?  A few Jubilee cameos?  I mean I suppose Glen Rhee counts, but outside of that... I might be drawing a blank, but where are the prominent Asian characters to even HAVE a in a movie or series?

[HarryTrotter]

Technically,she was Celtic with a Tibetan motives.Who thought that made sense,I really cant say.
One or two reviews I saw didnt even mention race.It just is a very boring series.

[kkhohoho]

But the character is/was a white guy.

And again, people do not care. They don't care if the comic version is/was a white guy, they care about the TV version being a white guy. Do you really think that most people watching Iron Fist have even read the comics? The most they've done is do a quick google search, and even then, they probably still just know the bare minimum. It doesn't matter to them. They do NOT want a Mighty Whitey, regardless of said Mighty Whitey's origins. It doesn't have that much to do with not getting an Asian in the role. They would probably have been fine if he was black or Native American or South Asian or what have you. The problem is that he's a rich white guy who has become the master of a minority-dominated art, and that is very problematic. You can't just excuse it because that's how it was in the comics, because this isn't the comics. This is an adaptation for a different medium, and sometimes, changes have to be made.

[daglob]

Why didn't they just do Shang Chi? They have done him without using the name Fu Manchu in recent years.

[HarryTrotter]

Im pretty sure that Fu Manchu was in Secret Avengers.Dont think his name was mentioned,but it was fairly obvious.Finer details escape  me because it was a long time ago.
Anyhow,we went thru this several times,so this feels like pissing in the wind at this point,but here is the thing;whole point of Iron Fist is that he is a man who rejected his own culture and embraced a foreign one as his own.
I cant say how the show handles that,but it can be hard to translate.But I can say Im not surprised that majority of net missed the point.

[BentonGrey]

That's a good point, Spade.  It is a rather important element of the character.

Kk, is it a real problem, though?  People will certainly treat it as such, but that doesn't necessarily mean it actually is.  It does make a difference whether you're dealing with an existing character or a new creation.  To tell a story about Tarzan is one thing, but to create a new 'Mighty Whtiey' protector of Africa is something else.  Folks will certainly take offense at either these days, but for my money, perception isn't reality.  You're right, folks aren't going to know the comics, but I do think that there is some acknowledgement of the difference between adaptation and creation.  It isn't a panacea, but I think folks are more patient with adaptations of existing material.  Whether they are or not, adaptation is a different matter than creation and always brings with it some of the context of its origins.

[kkhohoho]

That's a good point, Spade.  It is a rather important element of the character.

Kk, is it a real problem, though?  People will certainly treat it as such, but that doesn't necessarily mean it actually is.  It does make a difference whether you're dealing with an existing character or a new creation.  To tell a story about Tarzan is one thing, but to create a new 'Mighty Whtiey' protector of Africa is something else.  Folks will certainly take offense at either these days, but for my money, perception isn't reality.  You're right, folks aren't going to know the comics, but I do think that there is some acknowledgement of the difference between adaptation and creation.  It isn't a panacea, but I think folks are more patient with adaptations of existing material.  Whether they are or not, adaptation is a different matter than creation and always brings with it some of the context of its origins.

You've got a point. But like you said, it isn't a panacea, so even a straight adaptation of this sort of work to be tolerable nowadays needs the best acting, writing, and production values money can buy for people to look past the unfortunate implications. And from what we've been hearing, everything about this is anything but the best.

[BentonGrey]

Entirely true, Kk.  Good point.  You can always make exceptions for high quality art, but it's harder to be generous to something that doesn't reach that height.

[Shogunn2517]

Okay, 2 and a half episodes in and I'm not sure what the bad reviews are for.  I mean it ain't the greatest thing ever but it grabbed my interest.

I mean the only bad thing about it is Ward and Joy Meacham are pretty much Don Junior and Ivanka Trump.

[detourne_me]

Im in the 2nd episode myself, and aside from some cringey writing in some parts, its pretty good. No worse than the some of the best of Agents of SHIELD. 
As for the controversy, my SO (who happens to be Asian) said something funny along the lines of "only Asians can be good at kung fu? Isnt that racist?"
To us the most ridiculous thing we saw in the first episode was the generic "Chinatown Lunar New Year party" where extras were just standing there with their hands in the air like NPCs in a video game.

[HarryTrotter]

Im in the 2nd episode myself, and aside from some cringey writing in some parts, its pretty good. No worse than the some of the best of Agents of SHIELD. 

Was that a praise or a complain?Im not sure.

[detourne_me]

Oh I like it! Only saw the first two episodes so far, but it's looking like it's gonna pick up a lot.  I wish it was a bit more stylistic like Luke Cage. Cage kinda revelled in the blaxploitation a bit with Cottonmouth's character. I'd like to see Iron Fist take on some more kung fu tropes, but i'm still in the early episodes.

[BentonGrey]

Oh I like it! Only saw the first two episodes so far, but it's looking like it's gonna pick up a lot.  I wish it was a bit more stylistic like Luke Cage. Cage kinda revelled in the blaxploitation a bit with Cottonmouth's character. I'd like to see Iron Fist take on some more kung fu tropes, but i'm still in the early episodes.

Yeah, it would be great for each show to have its own sorta of sub-genre flavor.

Well this is encouraging to hear, guys. 

[spydermann93]

I thought each show did have its own sub-genre? Or maybe I'm confusing that for themes.

[BentonGrey]

They do, but he was saying that Iron Fist wasn't taking advantage of that.

[HarryTrotter]

Im guessing that in season 2 Iron Fist takes on...The Reviewers.

[kkhohoho]

Im guessing that in season 2 Iron Fist takes on...The Reviewers.

Eh, I don't he'll even bother. It's like Iron Fist himself said; it's not for them.

[HarryTrotter]

Its for people who like 9-12 hour long origin stories?

[Tomato]

So I've started watching, I'm about 2 episodes in now, and I'm about to start on 3.

Before I start, let me admit some biases from the outset here. I am NOT an Iron Fist fan, and it was easily the show I was looking forward to the least out of any of the Defenders. I don't know the comics, I don't know the character, and I'm sure pretty much everyone here knows my stance on diversity Vs comic book authenticity. That having been said though, I also wasn't bothered by the casting... casting an asian would have been WORSE, and has been pointed out, goes against the character's story of rejecting his own culture to embrace another. So while I was not enthusiastic, I wasn't predisposed against it.

That all having been said: The show really is mediocre. Don't get me wrong, it's fine, and arguably more entertaining than even some of the weaker MCU entries... but that's all I can say about it so far.

Spoiler

The villains have thus far been uneven (the son acts more reasonably but is a total unlikeable arse, the dad just seems... crazy.), and Danny is just... WE know he's actually who he says he is, but I sympathize with everyone around him treating him like a crazy person. He's clearly suffering some form of PTSD, and he fails at "I am your long lost friend" 101 by not mentioning ANYTHING only they would know until episode 2, despite having an opportunity to do so in the FIRST SCENE. He just EXPECTS people to believe him, despite a later scene proving that he did actually think about ways to prove his identity, like fingerprints and dna.

All in all, this is easily the weakest Defenders season. Still good, but this is the same staple of shows that made me begrudgingly appreciate the Punisher, a character I HATE in the comics. I was kind of expecting a bit more from a character I'm lukewarm to.

[Tomato]

And now I've finished it.

So I will say, it does improve a lot as the series continues... but it never really hits home for me.

Spoiler

Even not knowing the comics, the big "reveal" of Harold as the true big bad was not at all surprising. The whole "the arse brother becomes more sympathetic and the sister steps into a villain role in the final moments" was JUST done in Luke Cage, and in so doing failed to be a surprise here. And while Danny does become more likeable, he also continues to make dumb decisions.

[Shogunn2517]

And now I've finished it.

So I will say, it does improve a lot as the series continues... but it never really hits home for me.

Spoiler

Even not knowing the comics, the big "reveal" of Harold as the true big bad was not at all surprising. The whole "the arse brother becomes more sympathetic and the sister steps into a villain role in the final moments" was JUST done in Luke Cage, and in so doing failed to be a surprise here. And while Danny does become more likeable, he also continues to make dumb decisions.

I agree and disagree.  Yes, I too think it got better, particularly at the last 2-3 episodes.

Spoiler

I just don't think the characters were as predictable or "cookie-cutter" as some others might have(if that's what you're trying to say).  It's funny, I came in knowing about as much about Iron Fist as you did, so I had no idea who Bakuto was or Colleen or whatever connection they MIGHT have had in the comics and how it would be played here.  So the Hand reveal was, though a little sudden, it was pretty shocking to me.  And the blend of "kung fu treachery" and "corporate scandal" worked well IMO.  It wasn't a typical "greedy businessman" making a deal with a "secret Asian order" I've seen done in plenty of films.  It's like they all were trying to get over on each other and by the end I wasn't sure WHO to trust, who was good and who was bad.  Hell, Meacham was pathologically honest through the entire season.  I mean what kind of big bad villain reveals everything the audience knows to everyone in the show.  I was also thinking Colleen was right that Danny might have been force-fed a truth that might not be as true as we think it was because Bakuto, afterall is enemies with Gao, who I'm pretty sure after two seasons of Daredevil I'm pretty sure is the bad guy. But then SHE turns around to help Danny....

Perhaps it was me, but all the misdirection and "the enemy of my enemy is... still my enemy" was intriguing to me.

Strangely enough, I think the one person who was fairly consistent through the series was Don Jr.(I mean Ward).  I mean he was a jerk from the first episodes.  He was a jerk in the flashbacks.  He was a pill-popping jerk.  Then he became an Oedipus-ian jerk.  Lastly he became a sympathetic jerk.  But still a jerk.

Wasn't sure if I quite understood all of Joy's beef.... or all of Davos' beef either.....  Okay.  Your friend left you.  So why do you want to kill him now?  Okay, your brother lied to you, but so did your dad... So why is it Danny's fault?  Also other questions like we've seen people like Nobu and Harold come back to life after being killed.... but Bakuto can't and Harold's not supposed to all of sudden?

Overall though, wasn't disappointed.  Not nearly as much as I'm reading from critics.  I mean it isn't Luke Cage or Daredevil, two properties I'm much more familiar with on multiple levels.  But is it really bad because it isn't them?(not a direct question to anyone in particular, btw)

But I thought it was good.  I could see a Eastern Cultural theme emerging as the "theme" that each series seemed to have.

[Ouflah]

Yeah I decided to watch it and so far (finished episode 4) I like it. Has enough cool moments to keep me watching, even though I wish he was wearing the suit while he did the cool stuff.

[Tomato]

Spoiler

It's not so much that it was cookie cutter, as it is that we JUST had a very similar character arc between two siblings in Luke Cage, which was the last Netflix show. Except it made more sense in that show, since the fallout paralleled the relationship between Luke and his own brother. Here it just felt like they had these two characters and they needed to give them an arc. They're not bad arcs, I just feel like they could have been timed a little better is all.

I should mention that for whatever the reviews say, Iron Fist doesn't really dip into "bad" territory like we've seen at points for the other shows. For example, Luke Cage, much as I personally think it's the best of the shows so far... the final confrontation in that show is unquestionably BAD. A good portion of Daredevil season 2 is BAD. But those problematic elements are balanced out by GOOD elements, such as memorable characters, good fight scenes, and even just cool cinematography.

The problem I have with Iron Fist is that it just doesn't have those same highs... For a show about a martial arts superhero, there are very few memorable fights (the gauntlet which gets overshadowed by Madame Gao at the end, and the one with the guardian are the only ones that stuck with me at all, and they're all pretty cookie cutter) nor anything else that stands out in the same way as certain scenes from all 3 of the other series. So while it was engaging and I cannot say it's a BAD series, it's biggest sin is that it's just too middle of the road.

Spoiler

Honestly, I think where this show falls flat for me most is that, ultimately, it fails to deliver on its promise of an overarching theme. Throughout the entire show, lip service is paid to Danny Rand trying to figure out who he is... is he Danny Rand, heir to one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies (I assume that's what they do), is he Iron Fist, destroyer of the hand, or is he the failed guardian of K'un-L'un? Even in the final moments of the series, we didn't get that resolved. As much as we all tilted our heads at Daredevil's original costume, that moment where he fully embraces his identity is a powerful one, and the fact that Iron Fist pays so much lip service to who Danny is supposed to be and fails to deliver resolution is a failure of the series as a whole.

[HarryTrotter]

I got a feeling everyone is just like: Lets get this over with so we can get to Defenders.
Or is the first season of Punisher next?

[Shogunn2517]

Lol, it's the Defenders next, but yeah.  Might be.

Tomato,

Spoiler

It's not so much that it was cookie cutter, as it is that we JUST had a very similar character arc between two siblings in Luke Cage, which was the last Netflix show. Except it made more sense in that show, since the fallout paralleled the relationship between Luke and his own brother. Here it just felt like they had these two characters and they needed to give them an arc. They're not bad arcs, I just feel like they could have been timed a little better is all.

I should mention that for whatever the reviews say, Iron Fist doesn't really dip into "bad" territory like we've seen at points for the other shows. For example, Luke Cage, much as I personally think it's the best of the shows so far... the final confrontation in that show is unquestionably BAD. A good portion of Daredevil season 2 is BAD. But those problematic elements are balanced out by GOOD elements, such as memorable characters, good fight scenes, and even just cool cinematography.

The problem I have with Iron Fist is that it just doesn't have those same highs... For a show about a martial arts superhero, there are very few memorable fights (the gauntlet which gets overshadowed by Madame Gao at the end, and the one with the guardian are the only ones that stuck with me at all, and they're all pretty cookie cutter) nor anything else that stands out in the same way as certain scenes from all 3 of the other series. So while it was engaging and I cannot say it's a BAD series, it's biggest sin is that it's just too middle of the road.

Spoiler

Honestly, I think where this show falls flat for me most is that, ultimately, it fails to deliver on its promise of an overarching theme. Throughout the entire show, lip service is paid to Danny Rand trying to figure out who he is... is he Danny Rand, heir to one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies (I assume that's what they do), is he Iron Fist, destroyer of the hand, or is he the failed guardian of K'un-L'un? Even in the final moments of the series, we didn't get that resolved. As much as we all tilted our heads at Daredevil's original costume, that moment where he fully embraces his identity is a powerful one, and the fact that Iron Fist pays so much lip service to who Danny is supposed to be and fails to deliver resolution is a failure of the series as a whole.

I hear you and I can't disagree with a lot of what you said.  I just think a lot of people(maybe not you) are looking at this and judging it on a scale of something that it isn't or was trying to be.  Like the reviewers who are actually mad that Danny Rand is a white guy.  Like stuff like that I can't take seriously.  Just the same, and maybe less harshly are folks are looking at this and comparing it to DD, JJ and LC and saying if it isn't as good then it's just bad and I don't think that's fair.  You said it right, it's good.  It MIGHT be the weakest of the seasons(honestly, I might have it close to DDS2), but that's like an EXTREMELY high bar though.  I think it held it's own pretty well.

Spoiler

I hear you about the lack of memorable fights.  Like the hallway scene and stairwell scene in DD's seasons were obviously memorable.  I thought Colleen vs Bakuto was pretty good....... Actually as I sit here and think about it I'm trying to remember the "big bad" Danny faced off against at the end of the series and I can't even remember one.  If there was even one.  I think that just scores your point.  That said, overall I wasn't upset at the fighting.  It was well-done and entertaining, IMO.  Though, just like Daredevil, it was also EXTREMELY inconsistent.  If you remember my complaining that Daredevil takes some good shots against some street thugs, but a clan of ninjas he just breezes through.  Here, in the first few episode NOBODY literally lands a hand on Danny, not even Colleen.  He even chides her for letting someone inferior land on her.  But then I'm seeing regular dudes be able to hit him?  Not kung-fu masters, but like the knife-wielder guy that firebombed his X-Rays. 

But like I said, my main thing, what carried the series for me, wasn't just the fighting(which kinda has me walking around the house randomly striking kung-fu poses) but the intrigue between the factions vying against each other.  First it's Danny vs the Meachams.  Then it's Danny vs Ward (and Joy and Harold are on his side).  Then it's Danny vs Gao.  Then it's Gao vs the Meachams.  Then the Bakuto vs Gao.  Then Bakuto vs the Meachams.  Then Bakuto vs Danny.  And then Danny vs the Meachams again(minus Ward this time).  Pretty much the entire second half of the season I'm trying to figure out who is ACTUALLY the bad guy?  Harold's willingness to sacrifice and being upfront with Danny and his children and Bakuto's vendetta against Gao had me fooled.  I thought that was really good.

[Tomato]

Spoiler

I can get behind that. Like I said, the series IS entertaining, and that's one of the biggest reasons why. Where some of the in-fighting with Luke Cage felt forced, I felt like Iron Fist neatly balanced all the different factions well, so nothing ever really got stale. I just wish the series had gone SOMEWHERE with the identity thing, because even in the last shot Danny is questioning whether he should have ever left. The fact that he does not ONCE don the costume or the full identity is a severe letdown when identity is the theme of the series.

As for DD S2 being the weakest... I can agree with that, but I give it a few extra brownie points because it made me give a fruit about Punisher. As I have stated many, many times, I hate everything about the Punisher as a character, but Jon Bernthal's performance was legitimately good and it made me appreciate the character... a bit.

[HarryTrotter]

I experienced it almost in reverse.I like the Punisher,but Bernthals performance is kinda weird.Its not a bad take,its just a bit off.

[Ouflah]

Alright, just watched episode 7. No longer really interested in finishing the series...

Kinda crossed the "too disturbing for Ouflah" line. Weirdly abrupt, it previously didn't have anything I considered significantly stomach-turning.

[murs47]

I enjoyed the first couple episodes. But, unfortunately, this series suffers from the same issues as DD and Luke Cage; everyone's so expressive about how their feeling at every possible second. Are they all drunken teenagers? Or, the characters are busy psycho-analyzing whatever character they're currently interacting with; creating lazy attempts at being insightful. Honestly, there was so much unnecessary melodramatics that I'm certain Netflix hired the producers, writers, and directors of All my Children to handle the Marvel titles. I've never rolled my eyes so much. As they say on the other side of the Atlantic: rubbish.