Top Team-ups

[Tomato]

Long story short, lately I've been working on streamlining some of my collections... trying to figure out who I wanted for particular teams and which teams I actually wanted to showcase. I'm still not nearly done, but it's been a really fun exercise, particularly in cases where I've asked for the opinions of other members here on the forum.

That said, while those are cases where I'm just trying to nail down who I think are the most significant characters, I'm actually curious who everybody else would put into their "dream team" of characters. So once a month (or so) I'm going to name a particular team, and I want everyone to name who they think makes up the core of that team and why (max of 11 members). Feel free to PM me your choices for succeeding months.

I'll be posting my own choices for each team at some point as well, but I'd rather not do so in the starting post (my opinions are my own, and I don't want to make people feel like they have to copy me)

To kick things off, we'll start with one of my personal favorite teams...

[Helix]

Ok, keep in mind that I have not collected comics in a long time, but I was a huge fan of Wolfman/Perez New Teen Titans. So, naturally, I would like to see Nightwing, Starfire, Cyborg, Flash, Arsenal and Troia together. Additionally, I'd like to see a some of the following added to the lineup: Hawk and Dove, Captain Marvel Jr. (although they REALLY need to rename that guy), Guardian, Bloodwynd, Thunder and Lightning, Firestorm, Huntress, Halo or...Timberwolf (choosing, for some reason, to live in the 21st Century).

[BWPS]

Starfire, Robin, Cyborg, Beast Boy, Raven

[Podmark]

Are we talking Teen Titans? Because I'm all about Robin, Superboy, Wondergirl and Impulse.

Or the traditional Titans, probably Nightwing, Flash, Arsenal, Raven, Starfire, Cyborg and Beast Boy.

[Tomato]

Pod, we're just talking "The Titans" at the moment. I'd like to do the Teen Titans/Young Justice group as well though.

I guess for me, the characters I consider to be "The Titans" are influenced pretty heavily by the first Titans story I ever read... aka "Survival," a two part story in "The Titans" volume 1 issues 15 and 16. It's a relatively short story centering around the inter-personal relationships between the five original titans, and also showcases how far they've come as characters since the villain regresses them to their more child-like appearances in the second issue.

And really, I think it's the Titans book in general that influenced how I see the team: "The Titans" volume one showcased a team that was a mix of the original team, the Perez era Titans, and some newer characters who either hadn't been Titans before, or who had only been Titans in the short lived "Teen Titans (v2)" series. While the book itself wasn't great (It starts out well enough, but it really took a nose dive later on.) it's had a lasting impact on the way I see the team.

My dream team for the Titans are:
Adult versions of the original five titans (Nightwing, Red Arrow, Troia, Tempest, and Wally-Flash)
The Perez-era Titans (Cyborg, Raven, Changeling, and Starfire)
(Forgive me for the next two, they require a bit of explanation)

Kyle Rayner GL- So Kyle is a character that has technically been a Titan before, but it never really stuck with him... he even ended up siding with the League against the Titans in the "Titans Imperative." That said... I've always thought he fit in better with the Titans. See, in my mind, The Titans were always the next generation of heroes... they're the guys who have stepped up and taken over if something ever happened to one of the members of the League. When Hal Jordan went nuts, Kyle stepped up... and made the title of Green Lantern his own in a way that not even Guy or Jon had managed to do.

Supergirl- This one is more of a stretch, and to be perfectly honest it's just me filling in an imaginary gap. See, between the original five, Kyle, and Changeling (who I associated with Martian Manhunter even before YJ) we have "sidekicks" for everyone in the Big 8... except Superman. Young Justice TAS got around this by just aging up Superboy, but I always like him better with the Teen Titans/third generation team alongside Tim Drake and Cassie Sandmark. Supergirl, who HAS been a titan in some renditions of the character (I never know what to make of Supergirl... she's been rebooted so much I honestly don't know which version has done what.) generally fits in the same generation as the other titans (she used to be depicted as older then Superboy, but who knows if that's even still true.) and I kinda like the idea of a female taking over the reigns if something really ever did happen to Superman.

[Helix]

I see what you mean about Kyle being a good fit. I think he'd be alright. My problem is that I DON'T want the Titans to be an exact replica of the JLA...except for the original 5. I can excuse the original 5 because heroes used to have sidekicks. But they don't anymore, which is a good thing because I think they're kind of dumb. As for Superboy - I don't like the fact that he even exists. He serves no purpose. As for Supergirl, I, like you, I have no idea what the deal is with her anymore. So she gets a "no" vote from me. I would prefer to see Captain Marvel, Jr. even though I don't think I've ever read a comic that he's been in. I think he could be an interesting character if someone used a little imagination in writing him (and seriously...renaming the poor guy). Additionally, I always thought Firestorm, Hawk and Dove would fit because they are younger characters, and they COULD be interesting characters.

On a side note: I have NO idea why I included Bloodwynd on my original list. That wouldn't make any sense at all.

[Tomato]

I don't really want them to be a duplicate either, and I've never felt they were... just as I don't think the third generation (Tim Drake and the rest) are an exact replica of the original Titans. But at the same time, I'm also OCD enough that I feel like Superman should at least be represented. Thing is, I liked the animated series Supergirl, and I've liked some of the stories the supergirls have had in the comics. It's just that DC was so stuck on making Supergirl not actually be Kryptonian for so long that when they went back to the original "superman's cousin" origin they were throwing out years worth of development on not one, but two other non-kryptonian Supergirls, at least one of whom WAS a member of the original Teen Titans.

That said, I'm actually a huge fan of Superboy, but that's a subject for later. As I said, I don't feel as though he belongs as a member of the original generation Titans.

[martialstorm]

My votes for favorite Titans:

Wondergirl: I liked Donna Troy but the Pre New 52 Cassie grew on me.
Connor Kent: The duality between his gene donors made things interesting.
Speedy/ Red Arrow: I liked the classic Roy Harper with a cheeky sense of humor and some street smarts edge.
Starfire: Always a fave with some nice links to space storylines
Kid Flash:Great potential for narrative as he can be almost anywhere either Wally or Bart
Cyborg: The Teen Titans Cartoon won me over for him.
Beast Boy:Same as Cyborg less angst, more fun.

[Helix]

Nobody digs the Marvel Jr., Firestorm, or Hawk and Dove idea? Just me? Huh. I thought they were reasonably clever picks. Anyhoo...it seems that everyone likes the original five plus a few from the Wolfman/Perez era. I'm good with that.

Tomato - I understand your reasoning for Supergirl and the imaginary void. I also understand Martialstorm's desire to see Superboy. My issue with those two stems from the fact that I never even thought Superman (or Batman) belonged in the JLA. They are stand-alone characters to me. For some reason I have certain rules who should and who should not be on a team. Superman is too powerful and Batman is a loner. That's just the way I perceive the characters.

As another example: I would never want anyone at Marvel trying to put Silver Surfer or Daredevil on a team. And yes, I realize that the Surfer was a "member" of the Defenders, but he was mostly a part-timer who answered Dr. Strange's calls for assistance. Back in those days, the Defenders weren't really a team anyway. The Hulk and Namor only came when summoned too. It's not like they all hung out together before or after a crisis. But I digress...

[Cyber Burn]

I dig the idea of the Hawk and Dove characters being on a Titans team. Other than that, I would say Robin (Any version would be fine), Kid Flash (Also, any version would be fine), Speedy/Arsenal/Red Arrow, Wonder Girl (Probably Donna Troy), and Aqualad.

[laughing paradox]

The original five, the Perez 4.. that's 9 right there.

I also go with Harlequin's Daughter, Bumblebee and Guardian/Mal. 12.. but whatever.

While Young Justice had a great Teen Titans book under Geoff Johns, I don't consider them the same team as the Teen Titans.

[Tomato]

The original five, the Perez 4.. that's 9 right there.

I also go with Harlequin's Daughter, Bumblebee and Guardian/Mal. 12.. but whatever.

While Young Justice had a great Teen Titans book under Geoff Johns, I don't consider them the same team as the Teen Titans.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last statement. That's why I tried to distinguish "The Titans" from their more modern "Teen Titans" counterparts.

Anyway, I think we've all just about summed up our feelings on the Titans (At the very least, I think we all agree on the Perez team being the core of the Titans team), so I think now's as good a time as any to wrap things up on that end.

Since no one has suggested any alternatives though, I thought we might as well proceed to DC's second best team...



Well guys? Is the Justice League just the "big seven"? Does it include Green Arrow? Cyborg? Hawkgirl? Does it even NEED the full seven, or is it perfectly fine without Aquaman or Martian Manhunter? Or is YOUR League the more comedic JL International?

[Helix]

Yay! Here's my opportunity to be weird! My JLA team would look like this:

Aquaman
Martian Manhunter
Green Lantern
Green Arrow
Bloodwynd
Wonder Woman
Zatanna
Flash (if he's not on the Titans)*
Dr. Fate
Black Canary
Atom
Black Lightning
Aztek
Mr. Miracle

I think it would make for a rather emotionally intense team.

[Tomato]

This is probably the one I've had the most trouble with... on the one hand, I'm perfectly happy with a classic, "big seven" league (though when was the last time we even HAD that team? It seems like every version since the JL cartoon is missing either J'onn or Arthur) but, on the other hand, there are plenty of awesome characters who belong in that group as well... I just can't nail down who exactly they are.

Cyborg- On the one hand, I've been really happy with DC's decision to include Cyborg as part of the core league: He's an amazing character in his own right, he fills a legitimate gap (Batman's kind of taken the role of "tech guy" in the past, but without Oracle they needed someone capable of pulling super-hacking duty.) and, whether we like it or not, he's one of the few black characters in the dcu who isn't the "black version" of an existing hero (Steel, Jon Stewart, etc.). On the other, I like him as a member of the Titans, and I hate that they basically erased that entire group from the history of the n52. I'd still like include him with my league though, especially since I've been transitioning to the new 52 version of the team for my display (the new 52 isn't great, but I like most of the league designs).

Green Arrow- GA is a character who I feel like should be in the league because he's had such a history with the team, but I also have mixed feelings about his inclusion. Compared to big guns like Superman or Green Lantern, he's kind of the odd man out... he works fine with a larger league or with a small, low-power team, but he's kind of useless in epic event battles up in space. I tend to prefer him as either a solo character, or teaming up with another hero, like he did with Hal Jordan back in the day. Still would likely include him.

Black Canary- If there had been any doubt in my mind that Black Canary was worth including in the league, that was banished with Young Justice. While she suffers from similar issues to Ollie in terms of the big stuff, Black Canary is a tough as nails fighter whose powers aren't half as important as her training and physical prowess.

Atom- Atom's one of those characters who will show up in the league just long enough to do something amazing before being shunted off to the side again. I think the major problems is that writers don't really know what to do with his abilities... writers seem to think that fans underestimate the Atom, so they overcompensate and make him the dues ex machina in almost every story he shows up in. I get it, the Atom has awesome powers, you don't have to show him shrinking down to the size of a light particle to slip past Darkseid's shields and then one hit KO the ruler of Apokolypse because Atom can totally change his relative mass to do that. That said, I feel like if writers could stop overcompensating, he'd be an amazing inclusion to a proper league.

[Podmark]

Now which Atom do you prefer Tomato? Ray, Ryan, or Rhonda? I think there's a couple other versions too.


I think for a proper League there's five heroes I feel are required. Those would be Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern (Any of Hal, John or Kyle), and Flash (preferred Wally, Barry is okay). After at least one of Aquaman and J'onn. Then after them I like having a less known character or two in the group, usually a less experienced member. Cyborg works well and I've enjoyed him in JL. I liked Firestorm (Jason) in the McDuffie run. Connor Hawke in Morrison's run. Guys like that.

I think if I had to choose a favorite JLA run it would be the Morrison era. Cool team with lots of interesting team members.

[Helix]

Podmark - Here's where it gets hinky for me: Superman doesn't NEED a team. He's ridiculously powerful all by himself. And Batman...well, to me, he's a loner. On top of that - Superman doesn't need to play lifeguard and Batman doesn't have time to wait around for the others to catch up to him in terms of threat assessment and strategy. The team would be more interesting and would function better without the physical and intellectual crutches those two characters provide.

Tomato - As for Green Arrow and Black Canary being useless in a cosmic event: The Avengers have had the same issue with Hawkeye, Wasp, Black Panther, Captain America and a ton of other characters. Every team has that problem. Also, I agree that Atom is a difficult character to write. I think most of my favorite characters in comics are the ones that have suffered from a lack of good character development because they were difficult to write.

[Podmark]

Helix, I see what you're saying but I'm approaching it from a different angle. I'm not really picking the team based on the power sets and tactics, I'm picking it based on story history, iconic imagery, and character dynamics. When someone mentions the JLA, most of us would think of Superman and Batman as members.

A writer, I think it was Jon Hickman, said in a recent interview that you don't pick a team roster based on powers. You pick it based on relationships and story potential. That's generally how I approach teams.

If I could rewrite history I might create a world where Batman never was a member of the JLA. I've always preferred him dealing with more grounded crime in Gotham, and he's always been a shadowy character and that doesn't make sense for a very public team like the JLA. Though I could see him as a shadow member running things from behind the scenes, that fits Batman. Superman on the other hand I think makes perfect sense for the team. To me he's inspirational figure and leader to the world. He is the guy would the League should be built around.

[Tomato]

I'm good with either Palmer or Choi. Rhonda hasn't really been developed enough yet (she's been in what, 3 issues of JL now?) to have earned a spot on the league.

I think the people that got the dynamic right were probably the guys on the animated series... iirc, batman wasn't actually an official member of the team until waaay late in the series. I like that dynamic with him... he can contribute his experience and tactics to the league, but he's not out in the public eye like the rest of the team is. He works best as that outsider, hovering around the edges of the team in the shadows, with the reader not knowing if he's there to help or to find strategies to take down the league.

I agree with Pod on superman though. If the league is meant to represent the world's greatest heroes, then not having superman on the team would be a waste. Besides, I disagree with the notion that the rest of the core league isn't on the same level: Green lantern is arguably a more versitile hero, since he can make any type of construct he wants. Flash might not have all of Superman's other abilities, but he can do all kinds of things with his speed superman can't, PLUS he's got keener analytical skills from working in a crime lab. And Aquaman... well, he'll throw a bear at you.

[Helix]

Ok...for the sake of argument, I'll argue with you.

- If the league is meant to represent the world's greatest heroes then Firestorm should be there. Honestly, since he can molecularly rearrange things, he'd trash the entire League all by himself. He could simply transform Superman's suit into pure kryptonite, for example.

- I am philosophically opposed to having Superman on the team as a PR rep.

- If Martian Manhunter is on the team (as he should be...simply because he is not a strong solo series character), then Superman becomes redundant and superfluous. MM can do 95% of what Supes can do PLUS a bunch of other stuff.

- Wonder Woman, being an ultimate warrior, should be able to handle strategy; and the Atom should be able to handle the science. So Batman becomes superfluous. He is far more interesting as a solo character in his own corner of the universe.

Therefore, I am partial to a team of less popular characters: characters whom are underdeveloped and/or wouldn't do well in a solo series. DC needs to find a way to sell a comic that doesn't have a Super- or a Bat- character in it anyway. Maybe being interesting would work. It worked for the Uncanny X-Men. When they got reimagined by Claremont and Cochram they had no marketable, popular, or even recognizable characters in it. Cyclops was not exactly a household name.

[Tomato]

Except that part of the point of having a team in the first place is because multiple people can perform multiple tasks at once. Just because MM has a similar set of powers to Superman doesn't mean that it has to be one or the other... Young Justice had 2 Green Lanterns, Both Hawkpeople, Multiple Archers, etc. and you constantly saw them splitting up tasks and doing things as a team.

And I'm gonna be honest... the notion that because Superman and MM hav a similar power set is laughable in light of the fact that of the 6 man team in The Avengers film, 3 were physically strong characters with advanced combat training and the long range weaponry. In other words, HALF THE TEAM share an almost identical power set, but does that mean Hawkeye and Black Widow should just leave because Cap can do almost everything they can?

That said, I think there's a place for both an overpowered team like the big 7 league AND for a smaller, more tactically oriented team with guys like Green Arrow as well as some newer, inexperienced heroes. But that's the thing about comics... we're not stuck with the same lineup forever, because writers know that gets stale very quickly. The big guns come and go, new characters get brought in, so things don't stay at a single status quo.

Yes, I consider the league to be mostly the big seven, but I don't go up in arms whenever the writers make some crazy new team with some oddball choices. The one advantage the league has over a closer-knit group like the Titans is that there really isn't a set group of people who HAVE to be on the team in order for it to be considered the Justice League. As I've said, the league hasn't actually been a "big 7" team since I think the morrison/90s run, and we've had iterations of the team with none of the big 7 members that worked out just fine.

But when it comes to the character I think of first when I think of the league, those 7 are the guys. I agree that Batman doesn't exactly fit with everyone else, but he's the guy who pays the bills and it's because he doesn't fit that you get a lot of good drama with the rest of the team.

P.S. Since you called me out on him, I'm gonna admit that had I not been limiting myself to 11 characters, Firestorm would have been very high on my list despite a few issues I've had with the character lately. Captain Marvel would likely be another, though I liked him as much on the JSA)

[Podmark]

Well said Tomato.

- If the league is meant to represent the world's greatest heroes then Firestorm should be there. Honestly, since he can molecularly rearrange things, he'd trash the entire League all by himself. He could simply transform Superman's suit into pure kryptonite, for example.

When I think of the 'greatest' heroes in a superhero universe, I'm not thinking about power levels. I'm thinking of greatest in terms of the public and their peers. In the Marvel Universe if you asked anyone to name the greatest heroes I feel confident that one of the first names spoken will be Captain America. He's a great hero, but hardly the most powerful. In the DC universe, or any universe really, Superman is the greatest hero, and as I see the JLA as a team of the greatest heroes he belongs on the team. I could see him as more of a supervisor who isn't on every mission, but it feels like his responsibility to ensure the JLA is doing it's job to the best of it's ability.

Now I should be clear that's how I view the team. In terms of actually reading stories I don't require Superman or any particular hero on the team to enjoy a book. And if DC hired me to write the book I can't say for sure who I'd include.

As for Batman one way I think he works on the JLA is because he feels he has to be there. While I said it was Superman's responsibility, I think Batman makes it his responsibility to oversee the League. That fits with modern control freak character. Fits perfectly with his use in JLI in the New 52.

[Helix]

Excellent points, guys!

The reason I mentioned the redundancy issue is not because it is flat out wrong to have two similarly powered characters on one team; I brought it up as a reason why I, personally, would not put Superman on the team if I were writing the JLA. I apologize if I sounded like my way was the only way.

As for the Hulk being on the Avengers (or any other team) - I am torn. I like Bruce Banner and the dilemma he faces and I really liked Mark Ruffalo as Banner in the movie, but I really don't like the Hulk. Does that make any sense?

Also, I like Captain Marvel in JSA (I hope you ask about a JSA lineup sometime) and I'd still put Firestorm on the Titans.

[Tomato]

Excellent points, guys!

The reason I mentioned the redundancy issue is not because it is flat out wrong to have two similarly powered characters on one team; I brought it up as a reason why I, personally, would not put Superman on the team if I were writing the JLA. I apologize if I sounded like my way was the only way.

As for the Hulk being on the Avengers (or any other team) - I am torn. I like Bruce Banner and the dilemma he faces and I really liked Mark Ruffalo as Banner in the movie, but I really don't like the Hulk. Does that make any sense?

Also, I like Captain Marvel in JSA (I hope you ask about a JSA lineup sometime) and I'd still put Firestorm on the Titans.

No, I get that. As I've said, I've seen just as many good jl/jla runs without Superman as I have with him, so I understand your perspective. But my perspective is that of a collector, and the big 7 league just looks impressive standing together.

Which reminds me... I still need to get that N52 Aquaman figure from mattel. He and J'onn are the only ones still sporting classic costumes on my shelf.

[Helix]

Podmark - I understand that power does not equal greatness. It's not always about the numbers. I get it. If Captain America were the last man standing against Galactus, he'd be hammering away at the world-eater's toes.  Also, your point about Supes and Bats both feeling that they "need" to be there, albeit for vastly different reasons, was an excellent insight. Nicely done!

[BentonGrey]

Well, I'm late to the party, but I have been meaning to add my thoughts here for a while.  This is a really interesting topic, 'Mato, thanks for creating it.  I've enjoyed reading y'all's thoughts, and y'all have made some good points.  I won't try to respond to everything that caught my attention since the conversation has moved on, but I'll go ahead and add my own thoughts, for what they are worth (hint: everything!).

If I was writing the DCU *looks at DCUG* I would create a Titans team that was a combination of the original and the Perez era team.  I really enjoyed the Perez era book, and I love those original characters as well.  Seeing as, in my universe, several awful stories wouldn't be told and characters generally wouldn't be tortured quite as much, more of those original Teen Titans would be around and whole to join the team.   So, my Titans would look like this:
Robin (Dick, of course)
Kid Flash (Wally)
Wonder Girl
Aqualad
Speedy (eventually graduating to 'Red Arrow')
Cyborg
Beast Boy
Raven
Starfire

I like all of those characters, at least as they CAN be portrayed, if not as they are currently portrayed, and I think that a line-up like that would be the best of both worlds, introducing a wider variety into the younger generation, while cleaning up timelines and making things, narratively speaking, a bit neater.

At this point I should make a few points about the way I approach this kind of question.  Obviously, I don't much care for the current state of DC comics, or the state that has existed for quite a while!  Ha, so I tend to think in terms of ideal situations, what I would do if I held the pen, as it were.  That's what I've done in the DCUG, so I tend to think about the world of this private playground I've been working on for years and years.  The DCUG that has been released is only the tip in the iceberg in terms of stories I've written and arcs I've outlined.  There's an entire DC Universe of history and stories that exist in sketch form in my head and in my notes, so forgive me if I have a hard time 'coloring inside the lines' of the comics.

Secondly, I've always liked nice, big teams.  I've never really bought the argument that a team has to be small to work in a book.  A team is always as small as you need it to to be for any particular story, see?  The Satellite Era JLA is a perfect example of this.  If the writers wanted a huge cosmic battle, they had a big roster to draw from, but if they wanted a small, street-level story, they had characters to draw from for that as well.  Just because you have a large line-up doesn't mean that all of those characters need to appear in every story, or that you won't have room for characterization among them.  If you've got a good writer (the biggest obstacle, obviously), they can easily produce great stories with what is effectively a revolving cast without the trouble and drama of characters constantly coming and going.  Variety and stability all in one, no muss, no fuss!  As always I tend to go to the Timmverse as close to the Ideal Form of most things DC, and the latter seasons of that show were a great example of just such a situation.  It makes sense (logical rationale is always a big concern of mine in these types of discussions) that the JLA would be more than just a handful of heroes.  With all the technology at their fingertips, they could be a tremendous force for good if they had the manpower, and a large team gives them that manpower.

Thirdly, I heartily agree with 'Mato and Pod, that similar or duplicated powersets are no obstacle towards team membership!

So, after having said all that, let me add my thoughts about the current topic of discussion, the JLA.  I'm a big believe in the JLA, at its core, being the Big 7.  In fact, while 'Mato is more forgiving on membership, I lose all interest in a JLA book if it doesn't at least resemble the "real" JLA.  Once again, with a few notable exceptions (Aquaman!), JLU is an excellent example of this, and its occasional ruminations on why those characters are special really resonated with me, clicking with my own convictions about the heart of the League.

Now, that doesn't mean that I don't think there is room for variation, or that all 7 of those characters need to be there all the time.  Stories will lead where they will lead, and occasionally that takes a character out of the mix for a while, but I think that this should be the exception, and not the rule. 

As to my ideal version of the team, I think that the Satellite Era League is pretty close, but I'd bring in a few other characters to round things out.  I'm going to break 'Mato's rule of 11, I'm afraid, but in the end, my League would include most of the respectable adult heroes that I care about, so 11 is a little too low a ceiling for that:

Batman: The tactical mind of the League and a great foil for some of the other characters, even without the current Bat-jerk characterization
Superman: As others have noted, the elder statesman of the DCU, leader of the team in some ways
Aquaman: A great outside perspective and a good mix of abilities and secondary leader
Flash: Barry, but a more light-hearted and still equally capable version
Wonder Woman: another nice outsider perspective and leading lady
Green Lantern: Hal or John, starting with Hal, going to John, I'm thinking alternating tours of duty on Oa and outer-spaced themed adventures
Martian Manhunter: the heart of the team, logistical leader, keeps things running
Green Arrow: helps keep the team grounded without needing to be the complete jerk from the comics
Hawkman: Katar Hol, of course, another tech guy, providing alien technology to keep the League in business, and bringing a serious, strong personality and policeman's mind to the table
The Atom: (Ray, eventually handing off to Ryan) As 'Mato noted, he's often handled badly, but can be a great asset to the team when used properly
Firestorm: (Ronnie/Stein) I love Firestorm as the young, brash, idealistic hero just learning the ropes, and he's a great addition to the League
Hawkgirl: Shayera Hol, of course, and a bit closer to her comic version, but with the fiery streak of her JLU version, she adds a great, strong female presence
Black Canary: As does 'Mato, I think she adds a lot to the team, and her romance with GA is classic, lots of story and characterization mileage to be found there
Zatanna: Resident magic user, and a great pillar of the team
Elongated Man: Comic relief, secondary detective, and all around nice guy
Red Tornado: The classic man/machine conundrum, Reddy has tons of potential, and the League is the best place to explore it

In addition to that classic lineup, I'd include a range of characters from other Leagues or simply because they're awesome:
The Question (Let's face it, his inclusion and characterization in JLU was pure genius)
Captain Atom (though I think he works well with strong ties to the government, it provides nice tension)
Booster Gold
Blue Beetle
Vixen
Plastic Man
Dr. Fate
Blue Devil
And most likely more in time

I'd also roll the JSA into the JLA, keeping the classic adventures in their contemporary setting, WWII era and 50's, while the generational heroes, like Hourman and Mr. Terrific would fold into the League, probably in the future.

Well, that's my list, extensive though it is.  In the DCUG I've got stories set up to slowly introduce those characters and expand the roster, and if I thought I'd live long enough I'd tell stories about those heroes retiring and handing the reins to the next generation.  The problem with the next generation and new characters in comics, as I've said plenty of times before, is that they are usually introduced at the expense of their progenitors.  If the old guard is given good endings instead of being tortured, I'd be very happy to introduce a new generation of heroes.

[BentonGrey]

Apparently I killed this thread.  Sad.

[Tomato]

No, I just think the conversation on the JLA has just about been exhausted (plus, Helix put up his topic). I don't really feel like putting the next one up though, so Imma leave it up on the league for now.

[Tomato]

*comes into dead thread*

RISE!

So, this next one I want to bring up is kind of an odd duck, but I've been trying to pin it down lately without too much success. As such, I thought I'd ask around here and see what everyone else thought.



Aka: The Batman Family (I just couldn't find a good logo for that)

So, some of you may or may not be aware of the fact that I am currently collecting quite a few Batman action figures. As in, I have a 6 foot section of bookshelf set aside just for Batman villains and I am terrified that it will not be enough. But while I have very specifically laid out who I am collecting on the villains side, the heroes side is much more... chaotic. I just haven't been able to nail down exactly who belongs on that shelf.

Now, to be fair, some characters are obvious. Dick Grayson(Secret IDs because I have some displays with multiple identities), Barbara Gordon, Tim Drake, Alfred Pennyworth, and Jim Gordon are all pretty much set in stone for me. It's once I start stepping outside that "core" group that I start getting wishy washy. Going down the list:

Kate Kane- Though the modern interpretation of Kate is a more recent addition to the family, she's probably the most likely to be included of everyone outside the "Animated Series" crowd. She's a great character, she's got a wealth of different costumes (I collect up to 5 versions of each character, so diversity between designs is very nice) and she can stand on her own without worrying about a string of Legacy characters.

Cassandra Cain- Outside of Kathy Kane, Cassandra is probably the character I'm most likely to include. Cassandra was Batgirl in the comics while I was growing up, and I've always loved the fact that we had a Batgirl who was a better fighter even then Bruce Wayne himself. Not many characters can do that, and certainly not many female ones.

Stephanie Brown- Finally, we have Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, and Batgirl all in one. Personally, I'd love to have her if for no other reason than to give yet another middle finger to DC for their treatment of her in the new 52. That being said, DC's lack of love for poor Stephanie has crossed over into the figure world, as very few figures of her exist, and none of them in the lines I actually collect. I'd have to build each version of her from scratch, and that's a ton of work for a character who was only batgirl for a year.

Damian Wayne- Speaking of former Robins, we have poor Damian Wayne... ugh, where do I start with this guy? I absolutely love him as a character, he was a great Robin to go alongside Dick Grayson's "lighter" version of Batman. But he's only ever had one legit costume, he's been in all of ONE thing outside of the comics (and that was basically a cameo in BatB) and there's only a slim possibility we'll even see a DCUC figure of him at this point. I almost wish DC had let him stick around, but right now he's as much a footnote on the list of Robins as Stephanie was, and hardly worth the effort to include.

Helena Bertinelli- Huntress... I'll be honest, I'm kind of meh when it comes to Huntress. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with the character, but most of her character arcs in the bat-books and tie-in media seem to rehash the whole "heroes don't kill bad guys, so stop killing" "Ok, I will... psyche, no I won't!" thing and I'm so tired of it at this point. I almost feel like I should include her (she is a fairly well established member of the bat-family) I just don't particularly care for her is all.

Azreal (whichever version)- I'm gonna be honest... I don't get Azreal. I have never understood why he keeps showing up in the comics as a member of the Bat-family. The most well known Azreal was given the identity of Batman for like a week, went nuts, and killed a bunch of people. Even the versions that aren't psychopathic murderers are, at best, brainwashed assassins serving a pseudo-religious organization that happen to do good things for Batman on occasion. About the only point I ever liked the character was in the "Arkham City" game, but that series just makes every character it touches 7 kinds of awesome, so that's hardly fair praise.

So I bring it to you all... who would YOU include in the "Bat-Family" and, more importantly, why?

[Podmark]

Well Obviously Bruce, Dick, Time, Barbara, Alfred, and Jim Gordon. But for me Cassandra is must. From the time that she was introduced until Infinite Crisis she was very much a member of the Bat-Family. Even after Infinite Crisis and her scattered appearances and unfortunate storylines she was still a member of the family, with Bruce even adopting her. She doesn't get the headlines of Stephanie Brown, but is just as MIA in the New52.

Damian would probably be next in my list. He's gone now, but while he was Robin he was a core part of the family. Plus he was just such a great character, the more I read of him the more I loved him.

After that I'd have Stephanie. She's a long standing ally but she rarely really felt like part of the family. Bruce only occasionally accepted her and the two rarely worked together, mostly she was just an ally of Tim's. Still she was a fun character, just doesn't have the connection of the other two.

At this point I'd bring up Jason Todd, but I imagine he's on your villain shelf, and he really feels more like a family member in the New 52. The old continuity version was an anti-hero at best.

Catwoman would probably be the next character I'd think of, but again she's probably on your villain shelf. There was a long period, which still hasn't ended, where she operated mostly as a hero and was connected as a Bat family ally.

Huntress has never really felt like a member of the Family, just an ally with the rest of the Birds of Prey (minus Barbara). There's very little connection to the family, and half the time Bruce didn't accept her anyways.

Batwoman I have a hard time seeing even as an ally. Rarely do I ever see her working with any of the other Bat characters. DC tends to keep her to the side doing her own thing.

[Tomato]

Catwoman should be on that list, I just forgot to add her the third time I rewrote that post. I originally typed it while sitting in a parking lot waiting to go home, so it came out as a rambling mess the first time.

Jason is on villain shelf however, since I found him far more interesting on that end than as a hero.