Race in Comics

[Ajax]

If this topic is taboo, feel free to delete it. Recently there have been two very interesting pieces on race in comics, specifically minority heroes in DC. The first one was called The Racial Politics of Regressive Storytelling.. The second one comes from Bleeding Cool, which is basically a list of the minority characters in DC and what happened to them.

List can be found here.

I don't know what to make of all this. It's very easy to play the DC is racist card or whatever. But I think the first article pretty much hit the nail when it stated that what you have is a bunch of writers resetting things to early silver age when minority characters just didn't exist or if they did they were crude caricatures. Plus I think something like this is more obvious in DC which has an abundance of legacy heroes. So it's more obvious to the casual reader. Anywho I mostly put this up cause I wanted others thoughts.

[Previsionary]

the "racial politics" link was once a thread here (and sparked a conversation), but it was erased for being too political, so this thread may meet the same demise, unfortunately. I'll just repeat the base of my comment from the other thread and say that DC forced itself into a Catch 22 situation. They won't invest in new characters because fans, for the most part, won't give them an initial shot, but fans also get upset when "legacy" characters are replaced w/ minorities (and make their feelings well known and make the changes seem like a charity case to be more PC). The only way DC seems to deal with it is by introducing their racial characters in team books until they gather enough interest to lead a solo book or mini... even then, those characters usually end up standing around and not contributing much (Static).

[Podmark]

There's a problem with teen books as well. Fans want their team books to be composed of existing characters. Occasionally you'll get an all-new team with all new characters (Young Avengers) but thats rare.

I think the best way to launch new characters is to first introduce them in an existing series (Daken) or a mini devoted to them (like Gravity) and then roll them into a team book - but the key is that the writer needs to want to use them. Getting new characters to last long term is ridiculously hard. For example - Runaways. The original series was a critical success and fan-favorite but right now the book is limbo because the sales aren't high enough.

[GhostMachine]

I think DC in particular screwed up by killing off perfectly good heroes just to introduce new heroes of a different race to have some diversity, rather than making completely new heroes of different races or replacing heroes who stunk in the first place or had just been plain forgotten about. I definitely think comics need more racial diversity (ESPECIALLY DC), but not at the expense of perfectly good existing characters. (Here's an idea; what if at the end of Blackest Night, Hawkman and Hawkwoman or Hawkgirl or whatever she's called now had been resurrected as Egyptians? Wouldn't have messed them up too much if their memories were still intact)

To me legacy heroes don't work when:

a. They don't have any real connection to the original character (or the connection is weak; ie, a distant relative who has never even appeared or been mentioned before).
b. The original character is done away with to be replaced with the new one when the original character is still viable - this includes disabling the original hero or doing something else to take them out of the superhero game and making them a mentor to the new one, not just killing the character off.
c. Are a completely brand new character, rather than an existing one stepping into the old hero's place.

The only replacement hero I've ever felt worked in the case of c. is Kyle Rayner.

And unless you count Bucky as Captain America (I don't), I don't care for most of Marvel's current crop of legacy heroes. Daken, Skaar and the new She-Hulk all stink.

*edit* Looking at the list Ajax provided a link to, a lot of those heroes did get the shaft, but is anyone really all that upset over the deaths of some of the lamer ones, like Vibe? Vibe was a stereotype as well as being lame!

[detourne_me]

GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

[lugaru]

GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

I also consider them legacy heroes done right... they are all very different than the character they embody. Hulkling is not a "hulk", he is a Kree/Srkull hybrid who looks a bit like the hulk.

And yeah, just like last the this was posted, before it was deleted, there are a lot of points to be made beyond race. Personally I like my comics forward moving, I like change and I'm shocked to say some comics fans are starting to be that way too. A lot of people said "I'm cool with Bucky staying Captain America and Dick staying Batman".

Another intersting point is that kids dont care. For them John Stewart is the green lantern and they love him.

Lastly I want to see more diverse writers in comics.

[GhostMachine]

GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

I should probably have mentioned them. I don't read the Young Avengers comics, but they seem to be handled how legacy heroes should be done. The only character I have any problem with would probably be Patriot, but that's only because I think The Truth was a story that should never have been made an official part of the Marvel Universe, hence his grandfather Isaiah Bradley shouldn't exist. (I understand why Marvel did that story, and its based on what happened at Tuskegee in the real world, but it sort of taints Captain America)

[President Raygun]

I think these articles about the "white washing" of the DCU are missing the point : that DC puts way too much stock in their Silver Age characters. They could really care less about they're Golden Age characters (Unless it's one of the Big 3, Bats, Wondy, and Supes) that's obvious by all their retcons and reboots. They constantly want to rehash their glory days, but that costs them their relevance. So Ryan Choi didn't die because he was asian, he just wasn't Ray Palmer. I mean it's comics, he'll probably be back in two years. Short and sweet : it's a non-issue, but they'll probably do a few more articles about this because it pushes buttons.

[lugaru]

Short and sweet : it's a non-issue, but they'll probably do a few more articles about this because it pushes buttons.

Well a lot of the talk has been about the unecesary return to the silver age but the race component is kind of pointing out that we have come a long way and there is no need to go back. Going back in time will not only get rid of the cool new ethnic heroes but also the conflicted heroes (staple of the 80's to 2000's) and complex heroes (at some point backstories got longer). So yeah, they are pushing buttons but it makes for context besides conflict.

In other words if every company did this we would lose a lot of ethnic heroes but also a lot of mercenaries, ex-villains, female heroes... the stuff that has been happening recently. But I doubt it... still I am the ONE person sad to see the badguys no longer in charge of Marvel. It made for an interesting world and created comics like The Initiative, Dark Avengers and New Avengers which where really cool with a badguy majority and pockets of heroic resistance.

Also I'm bugged by the "nostalgic, but hardcore" attitude. I dont want to see characters from the 60's brought back in their original costumes just to watch them rip somebody in half.

And back to race to marvels credit a lot of the characters with "black" in the name (black bolt, black cat, black widow) are white and a lot of black characters (powerman, storm, falcon, captain marvel) have normal hero names.

[GhostMachine]

And back to race to marvels credit a lot of the characters with "black" in the name (black bolt, black cat, black widow) are white and a lot of black characters (powerman, storm, falcon, captain marvel) have normal hero names.

I remember in an issue of Marvel Team-Up (don't remember the issue offhand, but I believe it was the one where Spider-Man and Beast fought the Modular Man and Killer Shrike) there was a letter by someone wondering why there were black heroes with `Black' in their name yet Hulk wasn't called "Green Hulk", Shang-Chi wasn't called "Yellow Shang-Chi", etc. Yet they conveniently overlooked that in some cases the name made sense (like Black Panther). Quite possibly the stupidest letter I've ever read in a comic to this day.

Racial stereotyping is a LOT worse than giving a black character a name that starts with `Black'.

[DrMike2000]

None of these articles are accusing DC of being deliberately racist, or setting out to make their universe more caucasian than it already is, they're just pointing out an unpleasant side effect of their backwards-looking policy with legacy characters.

I think its a point well worth making, and it can't be overlooked.

The same point can be made for female characters. For example, when Grant Morrison returned the JLA to the "big seven" at the start of his run I'm pretty sure he wasn't intending for there to be a token female member, but that was the result until he expanded their ranks.

Its unclear whether this retro attitude is caused by fans or writers. I suspect Barry Allen's return (for example) meant more to Geoff Johns than to a lot of fans. Either way, its good to remind both fans and writers of the cost of winding the clock back this way.

[AfghanAnt]

Urgh... What is the point of this thread? Every time we start to discuss these matters a mod comes and destroys it. #controllermayhem #theauthority #nazigermany

GM. Look at the Young Avengers. I'd say that that is a group of legacy characters that occupy all groups you've suggested. They have all become successful characters, and without much opposition from fans.

I should probably have mentioned them. I don't read the Young Avengers comics, but they seem to be handled how legacy heroes should be done. The only character I have any problem with would probably be Patriot, but that's only because I think The Truth was a story that should never have been made an official part of the Marvel Universe, hence his grandfather Isaiah Bradley shouldn't exist. (I understand why Marvel did that story, and its based on what happened at Tuskegee in the real world, but it sort of taints Captain America)

How does it taint Captain America? You talk out your arse a lot about the most random things. Captain America was a subject to an experiment and the America government has a long history of experimenting on people of color. The Truth was a good series and I dont see how a good story (and the multitude of solid positive black characters) should be cast aside especially since the mini focuses on all the heroic actions of a Black man. That sounds like you simply dont want a black Captain America or you didnt read the mini and just want things to be the way you want them - news flash - they don't write comics just for you.

#clarkkentracism #transformersracismindisguise

And back to race to marvels credit a lot of the characters with "black" in the name (black bolt, black cat, black widow) are white and a lot of black characters (powerman, storm, falcon, captain marvel) have normal hero names.

I remember in an issue of Marvel Team-Up (don't remember the issue offhand, but I believe it was the one where Spider-Man and Beast fought the Modular Man and Killer Shrike) there was a letter by someone wondering why there were black heroes with `Black' in their name yet Hulk wasn't called "Green Hulk", Shang-Chi wasn't called "Yellow Shang-Chi", etc. Yet they conveniently overlooked that in some cases the name made sense (like Black Panther). Quite possibly the stupidest letter I've ever read in a comic to this day.

Racial stereotyping is a LOT worse than giving a black character a name that starts with `Black'.

Oh Jesus, Joseph and Mary - I just read what you wrote and you really must be kidding. Using the word "Black" or words that invoke an character ethnicity in the name is extremely racist. See Black Bird Black Marvel, Black Lightning Black Thunder, Black Vulcan, Black Manta, Black Power Ranger Ebony White etc. Also there is a Yellow Claw, Yellow Kid, Yellow Power Rangers Pieface (oh brother) and a couple of characters who are white who become Asian (this is even more racist in my mind #yellowface)  see Psylocke and Dr Droom. Based on your it's ok maybe I should start calling myself Black Ant so people don't get confused about what ethnic background I am...

Also this isn't an issue of legacy character being ethnic (and I dont even see how that even frelling manners), this is an issue of how ethnic characters are killed, replaced, or depowered because of editorial and writer demands white characters- essentially now that white is right in comic book universes (ok just DC, as Marvel has a host of A-list ethnic characters) and it is sad to see characters such as Jason and Ryan Choi be pushed to the side for white versions (even if the white version is the original) when they are just as good - there are no bad characters just stereotyping writers (see Johns, Millar, and Dixon).


Another thing Mr White Ghost, Black Widow, Black Knight, and Black Bird (the x-plane) don't count - they have as much naming significance as Yellow Jacket - by that I mean they are names that existed before Marvel Comics and describe their powers not who they are ethnically. As for Black Cat, that was almost Storm's name, powers, and ethnic description. For someone who is so gunho about legacy characters and comic book names, you sure do lack knowledge. #fairweatherreader #whitepowerlantern

Also besides the White Lanterns (White power rings for an all white cast), name some white superheroes with the word White in their name. I'll wait...

[murs47]

There needs to be more Mexicans in comics. I know for a fact that Pa Kent can't manage his farm all on his own so where the heck is Guerillmo, Pablo, and Esteban? I mean come on DC, I know it's not politically correct but show my people some love.

The next time Clark tells Pa he shouldn't be working so hard they should have a discussion similar to this:

Superman: Dad, you're working too hard. Take it easy.

Pa Kent: Oh, don't you worry about me son, I got Guerillmo now.

Superman: Guerillmo? Is that some disease? My x-ray vision isn't picking up any abnormalities in your body?

Pa: No, son. Guerrillmo is my new farmhand.

Superman: You really love aliens, don't you?

Pa: Oh Clark, el oh el!


But seriously, I'd like to see more Hispanic characters. But please don't make them caricatures like Dizzy from 100 Bullets. Jamie Reyes (Blue Beetle) is an excellent example of a good Hispanic comic character.

[AfghanAnt]

There needs to be more Mexicans in comics. I know for a fact that Pa Kent can't manage his farm all on his own so where the heck is Guerillmo, Pablo, and Esteban? I mean come on DC, I know it's not politically correct but show my people some love.

The next time Clark tells Pa he shouldn't be working so hard they should have a discussion similar to this:

Superman: Dad, you're working too hard. Take it easy.

Pa Kent: Oh, don't you worry about me son, I got Guerillmo now.

Superman: Guerillmo? Is that some disease? My x-ray vision isn't picking up any abnormalities in your body?

Pa: No, son. Guerrillmo is my new farmhand.

Superman: You really love aliens, don't you?

Pa: Oh Clark, el oh el!


But seriously, I'd like to see more Hispanic characters. But please don't make them caricatures like Dizzy from 100 Bullets. Jamie Reyes (Blue Beetle) is an excellent example of a good Hispanic comic character.

Don't forget Aztek! His codename tells you his ethnicity! And everybody hates Jaime because he's not the White ones - see DC Forums (I personally love Jaime and I'm sad he got pushed into Teen Titans because frankly the title blows donkey #@%%s).

[murs47]

Don't forget Aztek! His codename tells you his ethnicity!

Yup, it's about time Australian's got their own comic book hero.

...I personally love Jaime and I'm sad he got pushed into Teen Titans...

Ya, it sucks. But his solo just wasn't selling enough. But at least DC understands that Ted Kord doesn't sell very much either. Why in the world they think Ray Palmer is going to sell anymore than he has before is beyond me. I would have just stuck with Choi and developed him in JL or some other team book since he has a pretty strong following already. But what can you do?

[BentonGrey]

Urgh... What is the point of this thread? Every time we start to discuss these matters a mod comes and destroys it. #controllermayhem #theauthority #nazigermany

AA, if you don't want the thread to be closed, perhaps you should look to your own words, my friend.  I sympathize with your sentiments, but your obvious passion about this topic has you coming off as offensive on the broad spectrum, specifically the bit of (what many would consider) blasphemy in your previous post and your overall tone.  Calm down man, obviously we've got some disagreements here, but let's discuss them like adults, okay?  I certainly would prefer us to be able to have discussions like this, but if we can't handle them in a relatively politically neutral and mature manner, then I'd say the mods are right to shut them down.

I really think that this article, and you yourself, my friend, place too much weight on the (perhaps) imaginary racist motivations for the choices that are being made.  You says everyone hates Jamie because he's not white...but that's just silly.  I'm sure that, in this wide and very sad world of ours, there are some for whom that's true, but speaking for myself, I didn't like him precisely because Ted Kord died like a chump just so he could come to be.  Then I didn't like him because none of the books I read with him in them were particularly interesting to me (though my experience with his is admittedly slim).  I think you are vastly overstating the role race actually plays in all of this.  

For example, I am someone who loves the classic big seven JLA.  Do I love them because they are white?  Don't be preposterous.  I love them because those are the characters that I grew up on.  Did that circumstance, their all being white, occur because the writers and artists were racist?  I rather doubt such was the case, at least in any personal, conscious kind of way.  They were the product of a casually racist culture, and yes, that is a shame.  Still, I don't think that this necessarily marks these characters as somehow "bad" or "corrupt" because they came out of a time where people had some incredibly narrow-minded ideas.  Do we still need these characters?  Should we still be telling stories about them?  Well, those are other questions, and much more legitimate ones.  Personally, I'd be happy to move forward if we could ever get worthy endings to these stories, but that isn't the way the industry works.  I loved the stories from the 70's, set on an alternate earth, where Bruce Wayne married and retired and Robin was carrying on the good fight.  However, the much more common pattern is to kill off an existing character in an often meaningless and almost always tawdry kind of way, and what follows doesn't usually make a whole lot of narrative sense.

Which brings us to another point that several of you have made.  This is a problem, and I would agree that the lack of growth in comics in general, is a problem, even if not necessarily in the terms defined here, but it is one which is not easily laid at the feet of just one group.  The fans, the editors, and the writers all share some of the blame for the way things are.  We vote with our dollars that really worthwhile new characters like Ryan Choi (who I originally hated because he wasn't Ray Palmer, but grew to love because of who he was) aren't actually worth reading about.  So, in many ways we get the comics we deserve.

I of course consider myself above all you peons, though, as I'm obviously better than the existing comics world.

[Previsionary]

I really think that this article, and you yourself, my friend, place too much weight on the (perhaps) imaginary racist motivations for the choices that are being made. 

The article isn't saying race is the motivation, Benton. It points out the unintended side effects of the backwards thinking DC (and specifically Geoff Johns) is participating in and how it's effecting its cast's racial diversity (and if it matters, Gail Simone agrees to some degree, though she didn't expand on her thoughts).

The focus also wasn't on just race but the lack of diversity for all minorities and what happened to said characters that were used to spread cultural awareness.

With all that said, CNN just came out with a (scientifically unfound) study on races a few days ago. I'd link to it... but, you know.

[BentonGrey]

I really think that this article, and you yourself, my friend, place too much weight on the (perhaps) imaginary racist motivations for the choices that are being made. 

The article isn't saying race is the motivation, Benton. It points out the unintended side effects of the backwards thinking DC (and specifically Geoff Johns) is participating in and how it's effecting its cast racial diversity (and if it matters, Gail Simon agrees to some degree, though she didn't expand on her thoughts).

The focus also wasn't on just race but the lack of diversity for all minorities and what happened to said characters that were used to spread cultural awareness.

Ahh, my mistake, Prev.  I speak then about the response this article has created, rather than the piece itself.  Forgive me for only skimming, time is of the essence this week.

[murs47]

I of course consider myself above all you peons, though, as I'm obviously better than the existing comics world.

Just for that, I'm eating a tuna sandwich for lunch today.

murs47 - 1

aquatic sea life - 0

Take that, Benton!

[AfghanAnt]

Benton, even if I didn't say a word (which I could never do #mercwithamouthrealness) this post would be shut down. It breaks the rules of the forums.

I honestly thought the last thread was calm and just people discussing opinions - I didn't realize we were discussing politics. #obama2012

[BentonGrey]

Benton, even if I didn't say a word (which I could never do #mercwithamouthrealness) this post would be shut down. It breaks the rules of the forums.

I honestly thought the last thread was calm and just people discussing opinions - I didn't realize we were discussing politics. #obama2012

Perhaps, AA.  I didn't see where the last thread ended up, but I believe that if we can conduct ourselves with a bit of decorum, we could actually manage an interesting discussion such as this.  I don't believe that confining our discussion to trends within the comics themselves, and not tossing around accusations of racism among the board members themselves, would break the rules per se.

I of course consider myself above all you peons, though, as I'm obviously better than the existing comics world.

Just for that, I'm eating a tuna sandwich for lunch today.

murs47 - 1

aquatic sea life - 0

Take that, Benton!

*Mentally commands the bits of tuna to wriggle and choke Murs.*  Yep....I can do that...bet you didn't know it.

[herodad1]

i really dont look that DEEP into a comic.i read it for the entertainment.i also have tried to keep any chips on my shoulder concerning race,religion,politics,ect..put away so i dont end up looking/sounding like the very people i tend to roll my eyes at.to each his own.to get respect youve got to give it.no matter what color you are.

[AfghanAnt]

Benton, even if I didn't say a word (which I could never do #mercwithamouthrealness) this post would be shut down. It breaks the rules of the forums.

I honestly thought the last thread was calm and just people discussing opinions - I didn't realize we were discussing politics. #obama2012

Perhaps, AA.  I didn't see where the last thread ended up, but I believe that if we can conduct ourselves with a bit of decorum, we could actually manage an interesting discussion such as this.  I don't believe that confining our discussion to trends within the comics themselves, and not tossing around accusations of racism among the board members themselves, would break the rules per se.

I'm sorry but this is "Racial stereotyping is a LOT worse than giving a black character a name that starts with `Black'. " is offensive to me. It belittles the problems with race in comics (the topic of this thread). Ethnic superheroes are just that ethnic. There are exceptions to the rules (all of them Marvel owned characters) but ultimately it's insulting for me to read a comment like that - Especially given the way DC comics (Geoff Johns) portrays black characters. I said this before but if you are Black in DC Comics - you are a bad guy, a victim, or stereotype. There is no in-between and no exceptions. It is even more telling that DC ALWAYS declares diverse characters (be it gender, race, or sexuality) cannon fodder. Personally I'm still very upset that the Tangent Universe (with it strong diverse cast) and Milestone Universe (again serving you quality diversity) have been either demonified (see evil Black Superman and evil Chinese Powergirl) or whitewashed (see Static).  It shows me DC doesn't care about me or my money because their loyal Silver Agers (aka the time there were no black people) are what is important to their bottom line.

[BentonGrey]

Well, far be it for me to defend modern DC.  That is certainly not my intention.  I haven't read anything of theirs in coming up on two years now, and I was never a fan of most of the characters you mention.  Still, I am wondering about Jon Stewart.  I haven't read tons of books with him in them, but it seems to me that he eventually became a pretty significant character in his own right.  Obviously, that's only one, though.

I don't know about stereotypical writing, but could you give me some examples, AA?  It isn't that I doubt you, but it is a question of curiosity.  I always thought of Johns as a pretty decent writer, but then again, I've only really seen his writing in the bits of the Sinestro Corps. arcs that I read at the library.  

Still, even if he and others are writing minority characters in stereotypical ways, that may very well speak more of poor writing skills or a lack of actual experience than racism.  Then again, it may not.  I'm making no claims.

Also, over the course of this discussion, keep in mind that this is very much a matter of perspective.  Obviously, this is an issue that is very important to you, and as such, you've seen elements of this issue where many of the rest of us haven't necessarily noticed anything.  That doesn't mean anything more than a difference in the way we look at comics.

[AfghanAnt]

Well, far be it for me to defend modern DC.  That is certainly not my intention.  I haven't read anything of theirs in coming up on two years now, and I was never a fan of most of the characters you mention.  Still, I am wondering about Jon Stewart.  I haven't read tons of books with him in them, but it seems to me that he eventually became a pretty significant character in his own right.  Obviously, that's only one, though.

Jon Stewart was crippled, depowered, his wife was murdered and he was made into an angry black man (a far cry from his original concept). I'm certain if he were a woman in the DC universe he would've been raped as well. More recently Jon been portrayed as his Timm version but that is completely attributed to the success of Dwayne McDuffie's (black writer, creator of Milestone Comics) writing on the show. The only significant attribute Geoff Johns has added in his GL Reboot is that Stewart is a mass murder of Xanshi (a black alien race) and responsible for Fatality.

I don't know about stereotypical writing, but could you give me some examples, AA?  It isn't that I doubt you, but it is a question of curiosity.  I always thought of Johns as a pretty decent writer, but then again, I've only really seen his writing in the bits of the Sinestro Corps. arcs that I read at the library.  

Johns is a great writer. I enjoy his work but his characterization of black characters are either magic negroes (Jakeem Thunder), Uncle Toms (Mr Terrific), or stereotypical African American heroes (see Amazing Man and his dishiki and kente cloth hat). To prove my point further, Johns promised this new world of hope and heroic with Brightest Day but offered us white superheroes fighting child rapist African pirates and Black Manta slaughtering random people for no reason other than Aquaman is back (I can't wait for Black Manta who still has no name other than Black Manta starts on his racist tangents...)

Still, even if he and others are writing minority characters in stereotypical ways, that may very well speak more of poor writing skills or a lack of actual experience than racism.  Then again, it may not.  I'm making no claims.

When every non-white male character is directly tied to their ethnicity, it shows ethnic readers we can only be what we already are. We can't be Batman or Robin, we can't be Superman (unless we are evil and having sex with evil Chinese Powergirls), we can't be Wonder Woman (don't get me started on Nubia...really the Amazons made a baby out of brown clay and decided to call her Nubia?).  Look at what writers think of other ethnicities - The Great Ten (the only title with ethnic leads in DC currently has kung fu masters, taoist supermen, and a character who give birth to numerous people). These character stereotype Asians as nothing more than exotic, "noble" warriors who can have way too many babies. I mean come on how is your super power having super babies!

Also, over the course of this discussion, keep in mind that this is very much a matter of perspective.  Obviously, this is an issue that is very important to you, and as such, you've seen elements of this issue where many of the rest of us haven't necessarily noticed anything.  That doesn't mean anything more than a difference in the way we look at comics.

I don't think it's a difference of the way we see things when every character of color is either empowered by their ethnic heritage (are white superheroes so lucky that only they are stuck by speedforce lighting or born from a white ubermensch alien race?) or made legacy characters and referenced to as the "black green lantern" or "Blackstorm". It's reeks of racism in not only the mainstream comic industry but also the fans.

[BentonGrey]

Jon Stewart was crippled, depowered, his wife was murdered and he was made into an angry black man (a far cry from his original concept). I'm certain if he were a woman in the DC universe he would've been raped as well. More recently Jon been portrayed as his Timm version but that is completely attributed to the success of Dwayne McDuffie's (black writer, creator of Milestone Comics) writing on the show. The only significant attribute Geoff Johns has added in his GL Reboot is that Stewart is a mass murder of Xanshi (a black alien race) and responsible for Fatality.

Well, that's par for the course, but it sounds to me like he has been treated pretty much the same as many other heroes, regardless of race.  Let's see....Aquaman's child was murdered, his wife went crazy, he was turned into an angry white man (a far cry from his original concept), and then he was turned squid-faced and killed.  Ray Palmer's wife cheated on him, then he was lost in a tiny but savage little alien society where he met and fell in love with someone else.  She died in a fire, and Ray's ex-wife went nuts and murdered a whole bunch of people, causing him to disappear because he couldn't deal with all of this.  Yep, bad stuff only happens to minority characters.   I'm joking, of course, but I suppose one of the reasons that I don't see all of this as quite as big an issue as some of our other FR members is that, for me, it tends to blend into the background of terrible choices I see in modern comics.

Johns is a great writer. I enjoy his work but his characterization of black characters are either magic negroes (Jakeem Thunder), Uncle Toms (Mr Terrific), or stereotypical African American heroes (see Amazing Man and his dishiki and kente cloth hat). To prove my point further, Johns promised this new world of hope and heroic with Brightest Day but offered us white superheroes fighting child rapist African pirates and Black Manta slaughtering random people for no reason other than Aquaman is back (I can't wait for Black Manta who still has no name other than Black Manta starts on his racist tangents...)

Child rapist African pirates?  Ahh....lovely modern comics.  Black Manta's underwater racism thing was something that I've always thought was interesting when it was done well....the problem is, it isn't usually done well.  I'd be okay with them taking the JLU line and renaming him Devilfish.  That was a fairly awesome name, but if he does dupe people into following him based on a racist rhetoric, his current appellation does actually fit.

This confuses me a bit, you refer to Mr. Terrific as an Uncle Tom.  To be honest, I haven't read THAT much of the character, but I have read several arcs with him in them.  What confuses me is that here we have, to my reading, an incredibly smart and capable hero who is black...but there is something wrong with him because he acts "white?"  Yet, you criticize characters for being stereotypically "black."  I would think that characters who aren't identified primarily by race would be a good thing.  Obviously, something that was a realistic compromise between the two would be preferred, but it has always troubled me when people criticize a character for not acting enough like their given race.  There is no established standard, whatever the pop culture machine may feed us, no natural state for members of one race or another.  Let me be clear here, I'm not trying to be snarky, I'm honestly trying to understand your position, AA, and I know tone is a very tricky thing to discern in print.

When every non-white male character is directly tied to their ethnicity, it shows ethnic readers we can only be what we already are. We can't be Batman or Robin, we can't be Superman (unless we are evil and having sex with evil Chinese Powergirls), we can't be Wonder Woman (don't get me started on Nubia...really the Amazons made a baby out of brown clay and decided to call her Nubia?).  Look at what writers think of other ethnicities - The Great Ten (the only title with ethnic leads in DC currently has kung fu masters, taoist supermen, and a character who give birth to numerous people). These character stereotype Asians as nothing more than exotic, "noble" warriors who can have way too many babies. I mean come on how is your super power having super babies!

Ehh, this all speaks to me more of lazy writing and ignorance, the same trends that pass torturing heroes and supporting cast off as character development, than any type of willful racism.  Nubia was created in 1973 by a couple of white guys who, I'm sure, thought they were doing something good by introducing a black character into Wonder Woman.  Did they do it in a stupid and ham-handed way?  Yep.  Should her name be changed?  Probably.  Yeah, stories like this definitely shouldn't still be being told, but they are crutches for people with a dearth of ideas.

I don't think it's a difference of the way we see things when every character of color is either empowered by their ethnic heritage (are white superheroes so lucky that only they are stuck by speedforce lighting or born from a white ubermensch alien race?) or made legacy characters and referenced to as the "black green lantern" or "Blackstorm". It's reeks of racism in not only the mainstream comic industry but also the fans.

That's precisely what I mean though, AA.  When I look at these characters, I certainly don't see that divide, largely because I'm not looking for it.  I'm not saying that your arguments aren't legitimate (I think this discussion is a nice way to suss out what is actually going on, giving us all a chance to learn something), but that the fact that I HAVEN'T seen these things isn't a function of me being racist or wanting a "white-washed" DCU.  Instead, it has to do with the fact that I'm approaching the world with a different perspective.  

[AfghanAnt]

With Jon, I don't have a problem. In fact I'm not the one who brought him up in this because 1) he would be in limbo if not for JLU and McDuffie wanting him on the show (despite fans crying how he was an affirmative action hero) and 2) he (and Vixen) is the one positive thing DCU has done with an ethnic character in ages (and all it took was 25 years and a black writer). He is well known but he still fall into this physical description before superhero name with fans "black green lantern". Hal will never be the white green lantern because he's the default. He is the norm.

Mr Terrific is an Uncle Tom because in his 10+ years of existence he hasn't done anything but inspire disdain from me for ignoring his past. Acting "white" if there is such a thing *rolls eyes* isn't the problem - the problem is his complete lack of ethnic identity. This is the pattern with Johns writing - either ethnic characters are stereotypes or basically in black (T) face. Another thing - leave it to Geoff Johns to make Mr Terrific have a problem with Amazing Man's world view (he told Katrina victims they were the reason they were poor...Oh Johns...). To me, Johns used these two characters to show how he feels black people should act - they should be black only in appearance, ignore hundred of years of institutional racism and poverty, and work hard so white people will take them serious.

Benton, I think you know there is a big difference between someone being black and someone being a stereotype. I'm not asking for Mr Terrific to be a stereotype, I asking that if he is a black character he should be black (see Storm, Black Panther, Luke Cage). If Mr Terrific was a real person he would be Carlton Banks.

If by lazy writing you mean ignorance - yeah, you are right but it doesn't make it right nor does it make it less true. Racism is racism even if you don't realize you are being racist.

Black Manta will be Black Manta because Geoff Johns wants it that way. He will also be an angry, murderous, racist because that is what Johns thinks the core of the character is (despite the years of evolution...). I'd also like to point out that Aquaman is the most Aryan looking of the top tier DC Comics and Johns think that his natural enemy is a black character rather than his historical nemesis (Ocean Master).

[BentonGrey]

With Jon, I don't have a problem. In fact I'm not the one who brought him up in this because 1) he would be in limbo if not for JLU and McDuffie wanting him on the show (despite fans crying how he was an affirmative action hero) and 2) he (and Vixen) is the one positive thing DCU has done with an ethnic character in ages. He is well know but he still fall into this physical description before superhero name with fans.

Mr Terrific is an Uncle Tom because in his 10+ years of existence he hasn't done anything but inspire disdain from me for ignoring his past. Acting "white" if there is such a thing *rolls eyes* isn't the problem - the problem is his complete lack of ethnic identity. This is the pattern with Johns writing - either ethnic characters are stereotypes or basically in black face.

Well, Jon was the one character who (in my admittedly limited) experience with modern DC comics seemed like an example of a positive.  I suppose it is an effect of McDuffie being a great writer in the right spot to doing something good with those two characters.  I wonder if that isn't a fairly significant part of this problem.  Writers tend to write what they know, and if most of the staff is white, then there would obviously be a dearth of minority voices in play.  

I suppose then that my trouble understand your point about Mr. Terrific comes from a lack of back-knowledge about him.  I know his origin, but that's about it.

Benton, I think you know there is a big difference between someone being black and someone being a stereotype. I'm not asking for Mr Terrific to be a stereotype, I asking that if he is a black character he should be black (see Storm, Black Panther, Luke Cage). If Mr Terrific was a real person he would be Carlton Banks.

Poor Carlton.  Anyway, of course I know that there is a difference, but culturally there isn't usually much differentiation, which I find to be one of the most frustrating things about discussions on race.  People often take fallacious positions about what is "natural" or some other such nonsense.  The way I read your post was as making just such an argument, and I respect you enough to have asked for clarification, since I didn't think you'd be taking such a stance.  I can understand that characters such as Storm, Black Panther, and Luke Cage all have strong personalities that draw heavily from their respective origins.  Is that the type of thing you mean?  Why don't you clarify a bit what you mean by being "black?"  

If by lazy writing you mean ignorance - yeah, you are right but it doesn't make it right nor does it less true. Racism is racism even if you don't realize you are being racist.

Black Manta will be Black Manta because Geoff Johns wants it that way. He will also be an angry, murderous, racist because that is what Johns thinks the core of the character is (despite the years of evolution...).

Fair enough, and lazy writing is never excusable.  I give a certain amount of leeway to ignorance versus willful racism.  The one is to be corrected, the other is to be stamped out.

[AfghanAnt]

That is exactly my point with Mr Terrific vs the examples I gave. They have ethnic identity and it is important.

As for there being not that much difference, I don't agree with that statement. If there is enough of a difference for writers to make distinction between white characters (see Southern belle Rogue, ragin' Cajun Gambit, Colossus, Nightcrawler, etc, etc) than people of different socio-economic and ethnic identity should be afforded the same luxury. If Superman can have the identity of beinga  Kansas farm boy, why can't minority DC characters be minorities without it being a joke, offensive, or ignored completely? Shouldn't I be able to read a comic and relate to characters of the same ethnic identity?  

[John Jr.]

I really hate the "Silver Age with a lot of blood" Geoff Johns style, but I must admit I believe Benton hit the spot. Johns is ignorant, he chose ignores a lot of things, including diversity. He dreams with a comic universe with "hardcore silver age guys", no golden age guys, no legacy characters (except the ones he loves, like Superboy). But there's limits to ignorance, since there are a lot of internet topics about his failings the guy could try correct them. If so many people feels his writing is offensive (and even racist), maybe he should re-evaluate his point of views, but I doubt it.
I can understand AA', worries. Sometimes ignorance can be very dangerous, Johns & cia probably aren't doing  this in purpose, but their stereotypical characters are potentially damaging. A good editor could avoid this, but, there's no such animal.