free will vs pre destiny

[bearded]

apon years of consideration, i've decided that the concepts of free will apply to me, self, and pre destiny is for everyone else, you.
but what i'm really thinking about is all the seconds of hesitation in my life.  like Schrodinger's cat, every half life of second drastically changes every potentiality of my current reality.  and i think infinite alternate realities are created with each decision of free will, all co existing.  but, i think there is only one human soul per person, thereby the human soul, the free will floats through these reality packets.  how many times have you almost died?  in countless alts, you did, but your soul, seeking the path of least resistance currently inhabits the reality you are currently in.
there are many bodies, but much fewer ppl.

[lugaru]

Wait, was something legalized yesterday and I missed it on the news?

[GogglesPizanno]

Okay.
That means that...
our whole solar system...
could be, like...
one tiny atom in the fingernail of some other giant being.
           
That means...
one tiny atom in my fingernail could be--
Could be one little...                   
tiny universe.
                 
Could l buy some pot from you?

[BWPS]

Sometimes I see certain people and I wonder if I'm just existing in their dream world. Maybe they're the hero of the story, the narrator, and I'm just an extra at best. I then usually make a point to approach them, and try to offer some sage advice or alternatively engage them in combat, knowing I'll lose. I do this just to make my existence more substantial. But the problem is I can never be sure if it's the right person, and it's possible I'll never meet them or know who they are. But I do know for sure that the person isn't me even though it feels like it is. I just ate a pint of Haagen-Dazs. I'm not high, just fat.

[Reepicheep]

Its true. Fate planned for me to post this message a few thousand years ago.

[BlueBard]

{sigh}

I will strive to keep this a philosophical discussion and keep spiritual beliefs out of it.

First of all, your guiding axiom (Free Will -> Me, Predestined -> Everyone Else) is pithy, but inherently flawed.  As soon as you interact with a 'Predestined One' you're locked in yourself.  Logically the only way you could do so as an act of free will is if you, yourself, are the guiding hand of Destiny.

The odds of that particular condition being true in this case are low enough that I think we can throw that right out.

Likewise, the notion of zillions of alternate timelines and universes spun off from every decision of free will is an interesting idea.  But there's no logical proof for it and therefore it must remain no more than a concept... just like Schrodinger's cat.

[bearded]

{sigh}

I will strive to keep this a philosophical discussion and keep spiritual beliefs out of it.

First of all, your guiding axiom (Free Will -> Me, Predestined -> Everyone Else) is pithy, but inherently flawed.  As soon as you interact with a 'Predestined One' you're locked in yourself.  Logically the only way you could do so as an act of free will is if you, yourself, are the guiding hand of Destiny.

The odds of that particular condition being true in this case are low enough that I think we can throw that right out.

Likewise, the notion of zillions of alternate timelines and universes spun off from every decision of free will is an interesting idea.  But there's no logical proof for it and therefore it must remain no more than a concept... just like Schrodinger's cat.

but, even as a thought concept...if you take the idea of infinity in regards to the totality of reality, then, for example, we exist because of the reality pocket we inhabit.  or in other words, we exist because we do.
if you follow the complete theory i put forth, then i am the guiding hand of my own destiny, and the bodies around me are sometimes inhabited by other souls, but not very often.

zillions of alt space times is a tiny amount if you plug in infinite.  and i think each person is the source of different infinite universes.

just some thought experiments on my part.

[Reepicheep]

If you are free and your friend is predestined, then what does it mean if you punch them around the face?

Surely you chose to punch them around the face, freely.
But their reaction must have been predetermined?
Therefore, your punch must have been predetermined.
So your actions are as predetermined as anyone else's.

As I see it, either everything is free or everything is predetermined. You can't have both.

[Camma]

Hee i love it, great thoughts.

Just remember though, it doesn't really matter if you, me, stuff are pre-destined or free-to-choose since both notions are subject to self-biased views of the self.  More importantly, both destiny and free will are causal and therefore impermanant just like the self.

[lugaru]

Most naturalists view free will as an illusion but I'm struggling with some ideas of my own based on the process that we use to learn when we sleep. While sleeping our mind takes all these memories that are bookmarked as "things that interested us today" and starts to mash them into each other, so maybe the zombies from that movie attack during the meeting you where in today or whatever. By remixing memories into odd situations you learn more from them, you get to experiment.

When awake we also have our brain combine random memories and build a narrative around the ones that make sense giving us a series of options to choose form. The question is do we choose an option based on inevitable biases we have built in and our selection process is just our brain interpreting what our body is doing or do we in fact select one idea over others and go with it?

I also consider that two skills that define humans is the ability to hypothesize and believe. Hypothetical thoughts are mutants, things that you have never thought before but are generated somewhat randomly, in a flash like a light going on for some people. Belief gives us the ability to not outright deny what we invent but have not yet confirmed, and believing allows us to see an idea through, to find out if it is true or false.

The more things we prove or disprove, the less we need to act based on beliefs.  

[GogglesPizanno]

I just showed up to quote Animal House....

[bearded]

If you are free and your friend is predestined, then what does it mean if you punch them around the face?

Surely you chose to punch them around the face, freely.
But their reaction must have been predetermined?
Therefore, your punch must have been predetermined.
So your actions are as predetermined as anyone else's.

As I see it, either everything is free or everything is predetermined. You can't have both.

good point.  i'm trying to prove the egocentric view of sub level thinking from a personal perspective.
so...if i choose to punch you in the face, you have no choice but to respond.  if i don't punch you in the face, you can not respond.  ergo, the choice is mine.  you can only respond or not, based on my decision.  hence, your destiny is based on my free will.

[Reepicheep]

If you are free and your friend is predestined, then what does it mean if you punch them around the face?

Surely you chose to punch them around the face, freely.
But their reaction must have been predetermined?
Therefore, your punch must have been predetermined.
So your actions are as predetermined as anyone else's.

As I see it, either everything is free or everything is predetermined. You can't have both.

good point.  i'm trying to prove the egocentric view of sub level thinking from a personal perspective.
so...if i choose to punch you in the face, you have no choice but to respond.  if i don't punch you in the face, you can not respond.  ergo, the choice is mine.  you can only respond or not, based on my decision.  hence, your destiny is based on my free will.

Assuming you did not punch me in the face, knocking me unconscious, then I would predeterminedly walk over there and out of the door to save your girlfriend's life. Thats my destiny.

But you did punch me in the face and knocked me unconscious. How can I fulfill my destiny now? Its been altered by your free will. Your logic requires that there is either an outside force controlling my destiny (Which can then alter the destiny), or that the result of you punching me in the face will leave me destinyless.

Also, you just killed your girlfriend. Butterfly effect sucks, huh?


I have to wonder, what experiences drive you to think that my actions are predetermined? Are you willing to share? From my experience, people make a lot of crazy, radical choices based on forces outside of personality defaults, thus implying they have some kind of will to go beyond their default.

[bearded]

oh, i'm not serious, i'm debating.  you are good at debating apparently.
i'm saying that your destiny is impacted by my free will.  the outside force, from your perspective is my free will.  however this creates a paradox, as i don't believe in your perspective, since i cannot experience it except tangently by way of my own experiences.  so, your destiny is to be determined by the actions of my free will.
for example, it was your destiny to respond to this topic.  it was my will that created the initial post for you to respond to.
it was my choice to create the post, and you had no choice but to respond, in all the realities i created it.
so, i would surmise, in effect all the realities i choose not to post, you cannot respond, so that means all realities are defined by my decisions.
(i think your argument is stronger.  put the nail in it.)
lugaru, on dreams, do you lucid dream?  it is fascinating to me how inside a dream, it is the only reality to the point of loss of self many times.  and other times you have a sense of self, but it is mutated.

[Sevenforce]

...Wasn't this topic discussed not even 2 months ago?

[Reepicheep]

...Wasn't this topic discussed not even 2 months ago?

Its discussed every day, really. One of those questions you will never get an answer to.

[The Hitman]

Ever since I was a kid, I've thought that evry person is just a big action figure in a giant toybox.

Just wanted to add that.

[thalaw2]

I thought this thread was about a giant whale....


Maybe my soul wants to be a giant whale...but destiny does not want me to end up in a Japanese restaurant as a burger.

[AfghanAnt]

Wait, was something legalized yesterday and I missed it on the news?

HAHAHAHAHAAH! I actually laughed out loud.

[Failed_Hero]

I believe that there are equal parts destiny and free will.  I believe that life is a choose your own adventure book, without the option of going back to find a better ending.  I believe there are predestined options, it is up to the individual to make those choices.  I firmly believe that people can go through life without finding their "True Calling" or fulfilling so grand idea of destiny, but it is the act of choosing to try that makes life worth living.

[SouperIan]

I've started to believe that free will is more or less an illusion generated as a process of the brain making decisions automatically - when we think we're making a decision, we're actually just perceiving the decision already having been made in our unconscious.
I know new scientist isn't exactly the most reliable source, but here's an article with a bit of support for my view: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19826525.600-machine-detects-our-decisions-before-we-know-them.html

The real question is whether or not it actually matters that my decisions are being made without my concious intervention. Presumably, I make the decisions I would have eventually decided upon anyway, or at least would have had the best rationalisation for. So all-in-all, not much of a difference either way.


The concept of me using my own free will to deny free will makes my head hurt.