sensitive much?

[bearded]

this question is not likely to make me very popular, but since tomato questioned the worth of varied characters, it made me think.  actually it's a question i've wondered for years.
why are the skinners so much more sensitive about kitbashing than any of the other creators?  coders don't seem to care at all, with maybe one exception.  and meshers, for the most part give up their max files freely a large part of the time.  not all the time with the meshers, but a whole lot more, as a group, than the skinners do.
i'm not poking, cause i can inherently feel the wrongness of taking someones skin and changing it to make a new skin.  but maybe i think that due to all the years of conditioning here?
note, i'm not asking why kitbashing is wrong.  i'm asking why is it different from 'bashing script or meshes, especially even skoping now.
if you had a permission list for 'bashing skins, how different would it be in permission quantity from the skoping permission list?

[Spring Heeled Jack]

Perhaps it has something to do with how easy it is to get into skinning, or how it used to be that if you wanted to create content for Freedom Force, skinning was the first thing that came to mind (the process from idea to new skin is so fast). So there were lots of people creating skins, but also lots of people who wanted to skin who kitbashed instead, wanting to skip quickly along the learning curve. (I should know--if it weren't for C6's base skins, there'd be no SHJ skins! The value of which is debatable...)

I don't know, though. Good question. Let the histrionics begin!

[Tomato]

I don't think it's a bad question, and it's one I've also struggled with... Spectre Lad brought it up awhile back as part of his nifskope thing, and just to start the ball rolling, this was my response.

As someone who was notorious for, once upon a time, kittbashing skins (I got expelled from Electric Freedom for stealing the arm bands off a Green arrow, as I recall) then going the complete opposite direction for awhile (All kittbashers must DIE!!!) I've finally settled into what I believe is the normal standing for most skinners, and meshers as well.

The problem, as it stands, is not really kittbashing itself. If a modder messages me, asking to turn my Tomato skin purple and call him Zucchini Man, I not only do not care, I will pull out my high resolution .pspimage/.psd file and turn it purple myself. We don't expect modders to be artists, just as we wouldn't expect skinners to be mapmakers or voice actors.

The problem with kittbashing, and the reason it gets cracked down on so swiftly, has more to do with claiming work as one's own. For example, one guy came on one of the non-FR  FF forums distributing C6's skins with new faces. Yes, he put work into the faces, but in effect he was claiming the rest of the work as his as well. And when pressed about the possibility of just releasing the faces, he got upset and started going off on artists not owning their own work.

Yeah, no thank you.

The same, in effect, can be said of 'skoping meshes. Having done several meshes myself, I do not expect 80% of the FF community to know how to use Max any more then I would expect modders to become C6-level skinning gurus. You can couch 'skoping in the same terms as kittbashing, but the truth is that every single one of the meshers gave permission for 'skoping, and if they reascended it, almost everyone would instantly stop. There's an inherent respect for the initial meshers, and very few have been warned more then once or twice to give credit.

[Courtnall6]

For me personally...I just got tired of reading all the compliments the kittbashers were getting. Someone takes my 4 hour skin work...reduces it to 20 mins hack job and I get to read "DUDE!!!! That's AWESOME work!!!! GR8 job!!!!!" in thier "skin" thread.

So I put an end to it.

[Podmark]

I think with skoping and coding it's the fact that theoritically anyone could create the same thing on their own. Python is the same for everyone, nikskope has the same options for everyone, but with skinning you are limited to your own abilities.

C6 can make an awesome skin and realistically no one in the world could ever make the exact same skin without seeing it before hand. The same is not true (theoretically at least) of coding and skoping.

[Previsionary]

I don't think skinners are MORE sensitive, it's just that their work is altered more so than others. I've seen cases of meshers being upset with their work being altered slightly and the "alterer" [sic] getting praise or a ton of credit for it and that lead to less max files being given out publicly and more being given out to those they specifically trusted with their hard work. As for code, understand that most of it is given out to be altered in the form of FFX/attributes. It's a difference when someone takes specific MISSION code, doesn't alter it at all, and releases it in a warez pack. As far I can see, if anyone not related with the work takes it, barely alters it, and takes credit for all or the majority of the work; it's going to ruffle some feathers no matter what field they happen to take up hobby wise.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

For me personally...I just got tired of 4 hour skin work. I get to read "DUDE!!!! That's AWESOME work!!!! GR8 job!!!!!".

So I put an end to kittens.

I just kitbashed your post.

That's a good point, though, C6. Er, what you actually said was a good point. I can see how it would infuriate a person to have their work scoring points for someone else, especially when the basher isn't tripping over himself to give credit where credit is due. Honestly, I don't know how it wouldn't occur to someone to credit their source material.

I suppose a lot of it has to do with a certain internet attitude toward source material and how freely it can be obtained and repackaged. Add to the mix a community (like this one) that encourages and has great esteem for creative endeavors, and you've got folks who want to be part of the act but don't want to work from the ground up. Or they're uncertain about their efforts and want to hedge their shortcomings.

[Courtnall6]

For me personally...I just got tired of 4 hour skin work. I get to read "DUDE!!!! That's AWESOME work!!!! GR8 job!!!!!".

So I put an end to kittens.

nice

[AfghanAnt]

I don't think skinners are MORE sensitive, it's just that their work is altered more so than others. I've seen cases of meshers being upset with their work being altered slightly and the "alterer" [sic] getting praise or a ton of credit for it and that lead to less max files being given out publicly and more being given out to those they specifically trusted with their hard work. As for code, understand that most of it is given out to be altered in the form of FFX/attributes. It's a difference when someone takes specific MISSION code, doesn't alter it at all, and releases it in a warez pack. As far I can see, if anyone not related with the work takes it, barely alters it, and takes credit for all or the majority of the work; it's going to ruffle some feathers no matter what field they happen to take up hobby wise.

THIS.

[daglob]

I've given permission for people to kitbash my skins if they give me credit. If it ever gets to where there are dozens of my skins with the colors switched around, a different face painted on it, or adapted to a different mesh than the one it was intended for, and all creditied to PerniciousBlortch666, I probably would recind that permission.

I have had my art stolen and someone else claim it as theirs, and the skins are art. Still, for the present I have no problem if someone kitbashed one of my skins.

But I have to say, I'm still mediocre at best; maybe if I was as good (and as kitbashed) as some others I'd feel different.

[Spring Heeled Jack]

and all creditied to PerniciousBlortch666

Oh, I hate that guy!! *Shakes fist*

I've had some of my blog entries boosted and used elsewhere with neither credit nor permission. Drives me certifiably crazy. So though no one wants to dissect my skins, I still have ample opportunity to have my stomach turned in knots. Stupid internets!

They say that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but this isn't imitation--it's theft. And there's nothing flattering about going to lunch on my dime!

(Er, kitbashing without permission is theft. With permission it's just sampling. Which is very annoying.)

(I've been drinking. And watching Arrested Development.)

(PS, Why is it spelled with two t's?)

[House Quake]

I'm just going to add to what others have said.  With anytype of coding... there is pretty much a 'wrong' or a 'right' way to do things.  Whether you derive your own or copy it from another source... the code will likely be the same or very similar.

If skoping existed years ago... you'd have probably heard more of an outcry from the meshers (even limited in number they may be) because the permission to have thier worked shared or kittbashed would have been taken froim them.  Nif files could not be kittbashed... only hexed... but the mesh everything which went into the mesh itself was still present and beyond a doubt still the creation of the mesher.  A mesher had to physically give permission to others to use his work as a base by sharing his max files.  Of the handful of meshers who did share max files... they were very selective with who they shared with and what they shared.  Only a couple meshers of significant skill and ability have ever shared in mass.  If not for these select few... 95% of every mesh, scope or hex would not exist. (I mean come on... how many don't know just how much Grenadier's fingerprints are all over the majority of mehses which exist...?)

Skins..... have always been easily accessible... and easy to manipulate... and the first graphic add on people notice and wish to add to thier game.  Also skins require very little technical amplitude to create.  There are infinite ways to create skins.  Skins are all about personal creativity and skill.  This trait makes 'skins' more personal than other art and technical modifications.  So when a person creates a skin.. there is no doubt he did it.  Sure most require base skins and some of us have been generous enough to accommodate those guys...... but this is the limit which many of us feel we should offer to help others make thier own skins.   And yes... the worst feeling is when you made something which gets kittbashed and see people saying... "ohhhh you did that so well."

FX creating has been viewed very similarly to skinning.  But as with meshers... not too many have done it and of those... few were able to use art elements which didn't come from the game itself...........ie mos were kittbashed to begin with.

[Previsionary]

I think with skoping and coding it's the fact that theoritically anyone could create the same thing on their own. Python is the same for everyone, nikskope has the same options for everyone, but with skinning you are limited to your own abilities.

I wanted to address this. As you point out, with skinning you are limited to your own abilities. That's the same for nifskope and python as well. While their tools are more easily garnered, if you don't have the skill, you can't pull it off. If we move away from the simple things one can do with nifskope and python, and actually look at some of the complex contributions people have produced, it'd be pretty hard to state that someone extremely fresh to either area could pull off something like Conduit in nifskope (see matrix) or Dr. Mike in coding (see ffx/strangers).

The truth is, as far as actual mods go, once you actually look at someone's code, the patterns they use, and how they go about achieving their goals, you can pick up their style of coding just like you can pick up someone's style of skinning or meshing. My coding patterns won't be the same as Catwho's whose patterns won't be the same as Dr. Mike's whose pattern won't be the same as Alex's whose pattern won't be the same as Stumpy's. Python is a language built on variables and how a coder goes about making something work even on the simple level could have SEVERAL possible ways to do so that could be linked to certain users easily enough. But like I said, the impression is most coders don't care because the majority of edited code is from attributes. I can assure you that if someone just came in and took custom code from a mod to achieve something without any of the work, the person stolen from might be a little tiffed if not asked first.

Of course, most mod players don't even look at the code unless they're trying to learn something, so that also comes into play. It's much more visible with meshing and skinning than coding. Nifskoping is a field I'm not sure how to comment on fully because I don't know how a skoper that edited a mesh might feel about someone marginally editing their skope. I mean, would a skoper be upset about someone reskoping their work? I think the only real area that escapes the "don't kittbash!" stigma is fxing since a large percentage of fx are recolors or slightly edited pieces.

So to reiterate, no coders on this site code similarly unless they learned from the same source material and somehow think of the same solutions and same coding hooks to address whatever problem they're aiming to fix.

[Vertex]

Not to really dissent with what HQ said "if skope had existed" ... in a way it did.. it's name was Ink
Ink had a flair for kitbashing what other people made and twisting and pulling and fixing parts so they looked good.. as long as they never moved.

He went from mesher to mesher either grabbing parts or asking for them to fix what he'd altered and was very successful. The crowds loved him and cheered him as the skinner's hero. He never bothered to learn how to rig a mesh, never bothered to learn how to fix it so something properly worked but he did have a flair for making things look good standing still. Grenadier in particular took him under his wing and helped him enormously.. till he finally blew a gasket and I think some of you remember that little fiasco.

  Now as to why hexing and skoping has never "threatened" me the way kitbashing apparently does so much to skinners? I'd say it's pretty simple, while people can skope things from mesh to mesh, twist them, alter them and do things that often amaze me with their complexity given the tool theypre using... I know any decent mesher worth his mettle can blow them away if they choose (usually). Also .. and this is the bigger reason, I'm not in this for praise... I've never been the mesher who gets the highest praise, never the favorite, and quite frankly I've been rather happy about that. So many skinners seem to be in this tight competition... who's the best.. who's top dog.. personally I'm just trying to make as much as I can, as well as I can... and if any of you like it all the better. 

  Now don't get me wrong, meshers love to see that people like what they make as much as the next guy, but I can only say for myself... I've always been glad I'm not the fan fave.. because honestly nobody expects much out of me that way. I can make what I want, how I want, when I want and not feel pressured. "Don't bother asking V for something, he's gonna do what he wants anyhow" .. damn straight I'm in it for me. I always wanna scream when I see people say "there's nobody left to make left" oh my freakin' god..if you could see the list I have... you would cry for the rest of your life. 

[Podmark]

I think with skoping and coding it's the fact that theoritically anyone could create the same thing on their own. Python is the same for everyone, nikskope has the same options for everyone, but with skinning you are limited to your own abilities.

I wanted to address this. As you point out, with skinning you are limited to your own abilities. That's the same for nifskope and python as well. While their tools are more easily garnered, if you don't have the skill, you can't pull it off. If we move away from the simple things one can do with nifskope and python, and actually look at some of the complex contributions people have produced, it'd be pretty hard to state that someone extremely fresh to either area could pull off something like Conduit in nifskope (see matrix) or Dr. Mike in coding (see ffx/strangers).

The truth is, as far as actual mods go, once you actually look at someone's code, the patterns they use, and how they go about achieving their goals, you can pick up their style of coding just like you can pick up someone's style of skinning or meshing. My coding patterns won't be the same as Catwho's whose patterns won't be the same as Dr. Mike's whose pattern won't be the same as Alex's whose pattern won't be the same as Stumpy's. Python is a language built on variables and how a coder goes about making something work even on the simple level could have SEVERAL possible ways to do so that could be linked to certain users easily enough. But like I said, the impression is most coders don't care because the majority of edited code is from attributes. I can assure you that if someone just came in and took custom code from a mod to achieve something without any of the work, the person stolen from might be a little tiffed if not asked first.

Of course, most mod players don't even look at the code unless they're trying to learn something, so that also comes into play. It's much more visible with meshing and skinning than coding. Nifskoping is a field I'm not sure how to comment on fully because I don't know how a skoper that edited a mesh might feel about someone marginally editing their skope. I mean, would a skoper be upset about someone reskoping their work? I think the only real area that escapes the "don't kittbash!" stigma is fxing since a large percentage of fx are recolors or slightly edited pieces.

So to reiterate, no coders on this site code similarly unless they learned from the same source material and somehow think of the same solutions and same coding hooks to address whatever problem they're aiming to fix.

I actually do completely agree with this, despite what my comments stated. What I was trying to say before is that I think people get more upset at the idea of kitbashing skins for the reasons stated in my post, although I could be completely wrong there. And my entire post was based on the idea of kitbashing with permission - not stealing.

[deano_ue]

it's simple i hated the idea of others stealing my work and pass it off as they're own. hell i'm still a bit iffy if i use a skope

[Aly Cat]

I think the issue with kitt-bashing & the reactions that most skinners have is that those skinners are usually the 1's that have taken the time & effort to make the bases that they use for their creations; to have someone come along just recolor those bases & put stuff together & recieve all types of praise 'That's your 1st skin? That's AWESOME!' is unwarranted. I rememenmber when C6's bases were used so much (I use him as a reference a lot because he has probably made just about every char & has distributed a lot of his bases) that he actually made a new base he never put out but I saw it on some skins; apparently enough of his new stuff was put out with that base that a piece could be cut off from 1 here, another there & made into a workable base.

While a lot of skinners say 'sure, I give permission for my skins to be 'bashed.', they are not the skinners that had what was wanted by the masses (at that time) & were rarely ever 'bashed. I myself have never been that popular a skinner, but I would not like to see a leather texture that took me hrs to make being cut up to be used by someone and claiming it to be theirs. It's not so much that skinners are sensitive on the subject, but that a lot of credit is taken for something that THEY spent a great deal of time to create by someone that really only had the know-how to cut & paste.

Meshers are different, and as Vertex said; anything a 'skoper has created can be done (usually) by any mesher if they wanted to. And while I have always liked V's meshes, he always did like the obscure chars and most meshes have been specific to that particular char that it was always hard to use; not to say I HAVEN'T used his meshes for some of my creations (SINN, Necronos & Razer Wing come to mind). That being said: Let The Creative Processes Continue!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Courtnall6]

.. damn straight I'm in it for me.

Tell me about it...you're always ignoring my oh so subtle hints for a vx_Thor mesh...jeez...

[deano_ue]

.. damn straight I'm in it for me.

Tell me about it...you're always ignoring my oh so subtle hints for a vx_Thor mesh...jeez...

hell i've been shouting for a skeletor mesh from the moment i signed up, and everyone ignores me


i know you can hear me god damn, don't walk away

[Courtnall6]

.. damn straight I'm in it for me.

Tell me about it...you're always ignoring my oh so subtle hints for a vx_Thor mesh...jeez...

hell i've been shouting for a skeletor mesh from the moment i signed up, and everyone ignores me


i know you can hear me god damn, don't walk away

Dude...Skeletor is soooo 80's! Stop living in the past yo!

[deano_ue]

says the man with the brown and tan wolverine av

and anyway

Spoiler

released early this year so 

[YoungHeros]

Dude...Skeletor is soooo 80's! Stop living in the past yo!

But he's awesome!

[Courtnall6]

Oi...that brown and tan Wolverine costume is timeless! Timeless I say!

[Tomato]

Oi...that brown and tan Wolverine costume is timeless! Timeless I say!

Brown Wolverine is awesome. Period.

[UnkoMan]

Should I... should I just post a link to a document that has been up at my skin page for quite some time?

http://sjhftac.comicgenesis.com/freedom/kitbash.html

I'm not even going to bother reading it again. I will just assume it all still applies to whatever my opinion may be. Thus, I won't be able to make any clear comments here.

[Podmark]

says the man with the brown and tan wolverine av

Dude they brought it back in Wolverine: Origins these last few years. And Daken wears it now. 

[Tomato]

says the man with the brown and tan wolverine av

Dude they brought it back in Wolverine: Origins these last few years. And Daken wears it now. 

Don't be silly Pod, there's no such thing as a Da-Ken. That'd be as silly as some idiot declaring Spidey never married MJ.

[deano_ue]

says the man with the brown and tan wolverine av

Dude they brought it back in Wolverine: Origins these last few years. And Daken wears it now. 

dood shut up, your wrecking my argument

[Podmark]

says the man with the brown and tan wolverine av

Dude they brought it back in Wolverine: Origins these last few years. And Daken wears it now. 

Don't be silly Pod, there's no such thing as a Da-Ken. That'd be as silly as some idiot declaring Spidey never married MJ.

B-but Mr. Quesada said....

[Courtnall6]

says the man with the brown and tan wolverine av

Dude they brought it back in Wolverine: Origins these last few years. And Daken wears it now. 

Don't be silly Pod, there's no such thing as a Da-Ken. That'd be as silly as some idiot declaring Spidey never married MJ.

B-but Mr. Quesada said....

Oh that crazy Quesada and his cooky ideas...you can't go listening to nutbags like that Pod...it just ain't healthy!