The villain within

[danhagen]

Carol Pearson's book "The Hero Within," about six psychological archetypes, got me thinking about the villain within.
If you had one, who would he be?

[herodad1]

please explain a little more.like, if i were a villian what powers/personality would i have?

[danhagen]

I was thinking more along the lines of if you were a classic villain, which one would you most likely be -- Luthor, Moriarity, Goldfinger, etc.

[BentonGrey]

Moriarty, I suppose.

[doctorchallenger]

Without a doubt I would be a Adam West-Batman series henchman, one that has a sweatshirt clearly labeling me as such.

[zuludelta]

I'd probably be one of the Dreadnoks (who serve as GI Joe villains/comic relief), most likely Buzzer.

EDIT: ah, I just noticed that it has to be a "classic" villain... my "inner villain" is probably a pre-rehabilitation Alex from A Clockwork Orange, I guess.

[BentonGrey]

How creepy!  Ha, who says Buzzer is not a classic villain?  If we were to talk Joe villains, I'd DEFINITELY be Destro....although I also have sympathies for the Commander himself.

[danhagen]

My first real choice would probably be Ozymandius, the "villain" who is trying to save the world.  But he transcends the paradigm.
"I'm not a comic-book villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my master-stroke if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I did it thirty-five minutes ago."
But "seriously" folks, I would pick Dr. Doom. We share the virtue of modesty.

[herodad1]

black adam!

[zuludelta]

How creepy!

Well, not so much the rapey part of the Alex character (can I say rapey here?), I just think that if I were of the (super)villainous persuasion, I could see myself growing into the role of one of those guys who just wants to see civilization in flames and all its achievements ground to dust.

[livewyre1014]

Hannibal Lecter...smarter than the heroes, always manipulating the situation and messing with peoples heads, and decidedly creepy beyond all redemption. 

[DrMike2000]

I'd go for Ras Al Ghul - the mastermind-style villain who thinks he's doing the world a favour by his own bizarre morality.

What are the archetypes available, anyway? Here's a few I can think of:

Cosmic Personification of Evil (Darkseid, Thanos, Timemaster, Annihilus)
Evil Mastermind (Dr Doom, Braniac, Nuclear Winter)
Misguided Mastermind (Ras Al Ghul, Namor, Magneto)
Suave Thief with their own morality (Catwoman, Batroc ze LeePair!)
Bank Robber/Thug (Mirror Master, Rhino, Electro)
Lunatic Funster (Joker, Mxyzptlk, Toyman)
Misunderstood Freak (Shadow, Solomon Grundy, Amazo, Penguin in the movies, Mole Man)
Bitter Rival who hates the Hero (Luthor, The Wizard, Mr Mechanical)

[daglob]

Funny Dr. Mike; you see Superman and Luthor as rivals. I tried to explain that situation to someone in context fo a Champions game: Luthor/Supes, Bats/Joker, Richard/Doom... These men are rivals, not just opponents.

Me, I'd be John Sunlight: I NEED to control the world. For its own good, of course.

[livewyre1014]

I find it interesting that Superman/Luthor can be seen as rivals, I don't know that I ever really thought of them that way.  I always found the Superman/Luthor relationship more of a metaphor of the American society than anything else.  Think about it.  Superman is the embodiment of the American Dream:  a foreigner from a distant land who comes to this country seeking refuge.  He starts from very humble beginnings learning to stand up for what is right and fighting for the little guy, and builds himself up into a big city hero and champion of the everyman who inspires people rather than rule over them.  Luthor on the other hand has always represented what Americans as a majority fear the most: starting as a mad scientist in the 1930's, moving to corrupt business man in the 70's, and even achieving the office of President during the Bush era. 

But rivals...I like that view point for the Supes/Luthor relationship.  I don't know that I see a rivalry between the Dark Knight Detective and the Clown Prince of Crime though...

[Gremlin]

How creepy!

Well, not so much the rapey part of the Alex character (can I say rapey here?), I just think that if I were of the (super)villainous persuasion, I could see myself growing into the role of one of those guys who just wants to see civilization in flames and all its achievements ground to dust.

Agreed, Zulu; if I were to ever snap, I would be similar. However, I fancy myself a little more like the Joker, or at least the Joker of Alan Moore or Heath Ledger. I wouldn't be satisfied merely with watching everything burn; I'd have to make sure that everyone who was being scorched knew exactly why it was occuring--or perhaps more accurately, that there WAS no why, and their random unjust sufferings were yet another cry in this pointlessly painful world. I'd need to break the people themselves, not just the societal framework they occupy. Real horrorshow.

I find it interesting that Superman/Luthor can be seen as rivals, I don't know that I ever really thought of them that way.  I always found the Superman/Luthor relationship more of a metaphor of the American society than anything else.  Think about it.  Superman is the embodiment of the American Dream:  a foreigner from a distant land who comes to this country seeking refuge.  He starts from very humble beginnings learning to stand up for what is right and fighting for the little guy, and builds himself up into a big city hero and champion of the everyman who inspires people rather than rule over them.  Luthor on the other hand has always represented what Americans as a majority fear the most: starting as a mad scientist in the 1930's, moving to corrupt business man in the 70's, and even achieving the office of President during the Bush era. 

But rivals...I like that view point for the Supes/Luthor relationship.  I don't know that I see a rivalry between the Dark Knight Detective and the Clown Prince of Crime though...

Interesting. I'd say that has more merit in the original Supes, though, when he was something of a left-wing radical. A lot of people have criticized Superman for maintaining the status quo of America even when it appears pointless to do so (Frank Miller in DKR, for instance). Luthor's hatred of Supes has always seemed to me more like the conflict of man vs. God--Christopher Bird does a fantastic job explaining that angle here.

As for the Joker and the Batman, they have two fundamentally different worldviews. In a nutshell, both see the world as abundant in random pointless injustice. The Batman then beats it to a pulp and makes the world make sense, while the Joker laughs gleefully and showers the pain over everyone. Joker sees Batman as the last line of defense against the insanity, suffering, and pointless cruelty he revels in. That's why the Joker is constantly trying to make Batman realize his own innate madness rather than merely killing him--because if the last sane man around suddenly "gets the joke", EVERYONE has lost.

[daglob]

What happened was that a player wanted to have a new disadvantage: "Arch Enemy" (sound familiar?). I pointed out that arch-enemies are often rivals (for which Champions already has a disadvantage), and used these as examples. With Reed and Doom, the rivalry is obvious, since it is part of each character's origin. With crimefighter/criminal rivalry, it's kind of like

Joker (and Riddler): "I can pull a crime so good that you can't figure it out"
Batman: "There is no crime that you can pull that I can't figure out"

Or: "Ill pull a crime and you'll never catch me"/"I will find you no matter where you hide"

It is a rivalry of one-upmanship. So, the actions are opposing instead of paralell, it's still kind of like "I can do anything you can do better", or "I can undo anything better than you can do". And the Joker, like Doom, is always trying to show that he's the smartest one in the rivalry. Like Hugo Strange.

A lot of hero/villain conflicts are this way, with the villain trying to tear down what the hero has built... and this is what I think is going on with Luthor and Supes, but Luthor is trying to tear down Superman (his reputation, his self confidence, his personal relationships).

To my mind, Mordo and Doc Strange are NOT rivals. No matter waht Mordo thinks, he's always gonna be a second rate spellcaster.

[zuludelta]

How creepy!

Well, not so much the rapey part of the Alex character (can I say rapey here?), I just think that if I were of the (super)villainous persuasion, I could see myself growing into the role of one of those guys who just wants to see civilization in flames and all its achievements ground to dust.

Agreed, Zulu; if I were to ever snap, I would be similar. However, I fancy myself a little more like the Joker, or at least the Joker of Alan Moore or Heath Ledger. I wouldn't be satisfied merely with watching everything burn; I'd have to make sure that everyone who was being scorched knew exactly why it was occuring--or perhaps more accurately, that there WAS no why, and their random unjust sufferings were yet another cry in this pointlessly painful world. I'd need to break the people themselves, not just the societal framework they occupy. Real horrorshow.

In the words of the very dead but still immortal Sid Vicious: "I just want to destroy everything"

[danhagen]

Dr. Doom's seemingly unshakeable arrogance amuses me. I say "seemingly" because Doom knows Reed Richards is the better man, unconsciously. That affront to his overweening vanity is what makes Doom so angry and relentless.
Unfortunately, Doom hasn't gotten the credit he deserves because of a doppleganger named Vader. Fortunately, Doom has long been accustomed to such insults from the common muck that composes ordinary humanity.
The Hulk gives us the fantasy of what it might be like to unleash infinite anger and strength. Dr. Doom gives us the fantasy of what it might be like to indulge unbridled self-worship.
Doom speaks of himself in the third person and records his every utterance because history must not be deprived of an instant of him -- his ego would dwarf a Macy's Parade balloon. And Lee and Kirby established that odd note of his character, his strong but warped sense of honor. He would never do some of the things that, say, the completely evil Red Skull would do.
In short, Doom is a multi-faceted character, one of the few super villains who has been able to carry his own series.

[lugaru]

I would be the Dr Doom type, but trying to take over this country. You know, good intentions, bad methods.

[thanoson]

Man, it would be a toss between Alex, Black Adam and Thanos. The Thanos bit is because I would like a good challenge now and then.

[The Enigma]

I'd go for Ras Al Ghul - the mastermind-style villain who thinks he's doing the world a favour by his own bizarre morality.

What are the archetypes available, anyway? Here's a few I can think of:

Cosmic Personification of Evil (Darkseid, Thanos, Timemaster, Annihilus)
Evil Mastermind (Dr Doom, Braniac, Nuclear Winter)
Misguided Mastermind (Ras Al Ghul, Namor, Magneto)
Suave Thief with their own morality (Catwoman, Batroc ze LeePair!)
Bank Robber/Thug (Mirror Master, Rhino, Electro)
Lunatic Funster (Joker, Mxyzptlk, Toyman)
Misunderstood Freak (Shadow, Solomon Grundy, Amazo, Penguin in the movies, Mole Man)
Bitter Rival who hates the Hero (Luthor, The Wizard, Mr Mechanical)

I think that "Hero's Dark Reflection" deserves a category; people like the Abomination, the Reverse Flash and so on. There's an argument to be made for the Joker or even Dr. Doom, but the Dark Reflection tends to have similar powers but is evil instead of good.

[danhagen]

The "Hero's Dark Reflection" idea is interesting. Almost all villains are dark reflections, in one way or another -- Luthor is evil super-intellect opposed to Superman's virtuous super-physicality. Beyond villains, Adam Strange is another kind of reverse Superman, a champion who comes FROM Earth and who uses his reason, not his physical strength, to thwart menaces. Bizarro is another kind of reverse Superman, and Clark Kent himself is yet another kind.
Have you ever noticed the sheer number of mirror images and duplicates that appear in super hero comics? I've always wondered what's up with that? Narcissism? Solipsism? Something else?

[Alaric]

Beyond villains, Adam Strange is another kind of reverse Superman, a champion who comes FROM Earth and who uses his reason, not his physical strength, to thwart menaces.

Or maybe Superman himself is a reverse John Carter, Warlord of Mars...

[danhagen]

Or maybe Superman himself is a reverse John Carter, Warlord of Mars...
---
That, too.