Benton Grey's DCUG Mod, Yes or No?

[tommyboy]

So, here we are, as a community, deciding our community's rules and practices by a vote (sort of).
Feel free to sound off, debate and discuss.
Try to keep it rational and civil.
I've set it for 30 days. Please try to think and vote and post before then.
You may change your vote if you wish.
This is not necessarily binding to anyone in any way, but I think we need to hear from the community as a whole, and not just us mouthy ones. If we want to be a community, we must be one. Not just those of us (me included) who talk loudest deciding what happens.

OPTION 5:
As to any middle ground, I would propose a solution which may allow the Mod as Benton wants it to appear, and satisfy its critics too;
I propose a new campaign, of several missions of a Crisis in the DCU. The Antimonitor or Darkseid or anyone else gathers all the villains for a final clash with the heroes. the player picks a team from all the heroes, and as his team gets knocked out, replacements are scripted in. The player must either defeat all the villains, or survive a given time (depending on the numbers involved). This way, every mesh/skin/character now considered "extra" is playable and in the Mod.
I'm sure some will already be rolling their eyes and saying "getting around the rules". It's not. It's abiding by the rules you set out. There are no rules about the intent of any given mission within a Mod, nor who writes it, nor how quickly or slowly it is produced or to what end.
I have PM'd this idea to Benton already, but have yet to hear back from him. If he says no, clearly its a non-starter.
I would hope it's a way to satify everyone to some extent, as even those arguing against the Mod have said they would not mind if all the characters appear in missions.
I am prepared to do this myself, or to assist anyone else who may wish to do it better than I would. 

[Vertex]

I'm all for the mod, I plan to download it (once it's bug free I have hell installing stuff to begin with don't wanna do it 20 times)

Do I think including the entire DC universe went against what people meant when the no torrent rule was made YEP. Did I agree with the no torrent rule? NO

I think it's high time the community made some written down rules. No more gentlemen's agreements.. no trying to remember exactly who agreed to what and what they really meant. Decide what everybody wants for rules and write them down. This being said... honestly there's nothing anybody here can do to enforce a rule.

[AfghanAnt]

First. This poll is going to turn into another nuclear testing site.

Second. I honestly feel like mods with 4gb of additional unused content is mass file transferring and if we are going to do that why not just open up the hub again and allow people to set up private torrents?

Third. I don't care either way. This whole subject has destroy this community (content-wise) in my eyes and it is obvious that certain people have no real say, no matter how much content they create or how often they post because this community will use you when they want something and discard you post something they don't like.

[tommyboy]

First. This poll is going to turn into another nuclear testing site.

Second. I honestly feel like mods with 4gb of additional unused content is mass file transferring and if we are going to do that why not just open up the hub again and allow people to set up private torrents?

Third. I don't care either way. This whole subject has destroy this community (content-wise) in my eyes and it is obvious that certain people have no real say, no matter how much content they create or how often they post because this community will use you when they want something and discard you post something they don't like.

First, yes, that is one possibility. But here we are.

Second, you should have mentioned your feelings back when I released my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod. We have a precedent, a rule that says this type of Mod is done. Your precious "rule" on Mod content was broken years ago, and you know what? Anarchy did not follow. The sky did not turn red. Some people downloaded the Mods and everything else was fine. As it was with Benton's Mod, till IPS started in.
And the Hub can start up any time at all. It was never banned or shut down by the "community", just the guy who was the owner of the "server".

Third, for someone who doesn't care, you've been remarkably vocal. You have a say in what happens to your own content, that is the whole point of my Mod Permissions thread. And as Vertex says, we need to start writing stuff down, and to work out what we want as a community. You should either start to care, or think about why you keep posting quite so vehemently on a subject you profess to not care about.

Fourth, I note with some interest you neither accept nor dismiss my suggestion of a way to end this by adding extra missions to the Mod. Would it satisfy your personal concerns, or do you feel it to be a way to sneak around the rules, and still counter to the "spirit" of the rules?

[AfghanAnt]

Second, you should have mentioned your feelings back when I released my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod. We have a precedent, a rule that says this type of Mod is done. Your precious "rule" on Mod content was broken years ago, and you know what? Anarchy did not follow. The sky did not turn red. Some people downloaded the Mods and everything else was fine. As it was with Benton's Mod, till IPS started in.
And the Hub can start up any time at all. It was never banned or shut down by the "community", just the guy who was the owner of the "server".

Tommy, I never mentioned anything about a rule. I said I feel and the mods have said in the past that torrenting is not something the community wants so if we are going to start ignoring mods because we want to save the feelings of one person, why not allow any sort of file transferring option and this would not be an issue.

Third, for someone who doesn't care, you've been remarkably vocal. You have a say in what happens to your own content, that is the whole point of my Mod Permissions thread. And as Vertex says, we need to start writing stuff down, and to work out what we want as a community. You should either start to care, or think about why you keep posting quite so vehemently on a subject you profess to not care about.

I'm vocal because I was asked by a friend to make an observation and comment. I did and then people starting attacking me because of my opinion. I'm not going to let noobs and freeloaders rally around and make up the rules for the whole community because they want what they want. That is my major problem with this whole issue. If vetern content creators opinions are disregarded so easily for this community greater good what leverage or say do I honestly have in this community? Why shouldn't I just nuke HF and my yahoo groups? Of course, I'm not going to but the blatant disrespect for content creators' opinions is disgusting.

Fourth, I note with some interest you neither accept nor dismiss my suggestion of a way to end this by adding extra missions to the Mod. Would it satisfy your personal concerns, or do you feel it to be a way to sneak around the rules, and still counter to the "spirit" of the rules?

I honestly thought that is what this mod was originally when I gave my permission. So I don't have a problem with that. My problem is with collecting a bunch of content by different people making it the one stop source for said content and ignoring other people's work based on the packager's whim.

[The Hitman]

Tommy: You forgot to add "Eat Grilled Cheese Sandwich" to the list of possible answers. That'd get my vote.

Honestly, as a "one- time contributor" but mostly just a member nowadays, I am getting sick and tired of all this... all of this. Everyone's right, and everyone's wrong. Rules were broken, but only because rules weren't stated. Guidelines need to be made, but now isn't the best time because someone... ANYONE... mentions the words "Rules" or "Mods," and the boards crack in half. I get it. People are ticked off. End of story.

For crying out loud, there is no reason (NO. REASON.) why this community, a community that I was happy to be a part of, one that was very close- knit and devoted to a seriously- defunct game and all things comic booky, should be on the brink of crumbling after a minor oversight of (unstated) rules. Let it drop.Just let it dorp.

Or don't, and watch our member numbers drop lower than they already are, as we all march valiently towards the end. I just don't care anymore.

[tommyboy]

Tommy, I never mentioned anything about a rule. I said I feel and the mods have said in the past that torrenting is not something the community wants so if we are going to start ignoring mods because we want to save the feelings of one person, why not allow any sort of file transferring option and this would not be an issue.


I'm vocal because I was asked by a friend to make an observation and comment. I did and then people starting attacking me because of my opinion. I'm not going to let noobs and freeloaders rally around and make up the rules for the whole community because they want what they want. That is my major problem with this whole issue. If vetern content creators opinions are disregarded so easily for this community greater good what leverage or say do I honestly have in this community? Why shouldn't I just nuke HF and my yahoo groups? Of course, I'm not going to but the blatant disrespect for content creators' opinions is disgusting.


I honestly thought that is what this mod was originally when I gave my permission. So I don't have a problem with that. My problem is with collecting a bunch of content by different people making it the one stop source for said content and ignoring other people's work based on the packager's whim.

My position on distribution is the same as on Mod use or NifSkoping. Creator decides. If you say yes to a torrent, away it goes. If you say no, I trust people to report it if your wishes are breached. I get that to some extent it's a Pandora's Box with an open can of worms inside, so I don't press the issue. We may need a vote on it someday.

I understand and respect loyalty to a friend, if you feel they are unjustly attacked. I have loyalty to my friends too. Of course if my friend goes and starts a pointless fight they will not win and which will hurt a lot of people, personally I hold my friend back, not start swinging at other people, if I can. But if I can't stop my friend, then I guess I would hope I'd do as you have done and back them up. That's honourable.

And I thank you for having the flexibility to consider my "extra missions" solution, and for having no problem as yet with it.
I think maybe you and I are reaching a bit more agreement, and that's good. This started with two people disagreeing, it can start to end if people find stuff to agree on.

[Kommando]

Other:  The people who run Freedom Reborn should evaluate why they are paying good money to run a set of forums dedicated to a game most of them don't even play anymore when one mod causes a crapload of drama over ownership of content, none of which is the creator's Intellectual Property to begin with.  So yeah, this sure would be a lot more peaceful place if Freedom Force was dumped altogether and FR became a dedicated City of Heroes forum.  No Freedom Force = No Freedom Force Drama.  Problem solved.

[AfghanAnt]

Tommy, I never had a problem with the mod per say my problem was with the way the extra content was being distributed. It is no different than the hub or torrents and I don't have a problem with those things but if the mods have said "no" and even banned people for it, why would I allow one person to do it because they put so much work into their mod/ content pak?

Second, the only reason I got pulled into this fight and continue to fight is the name calling. There was a point during this whole thing where I actually tried to have a little fun with the fact that this fight was stupid but once you start attacking people and calling people names because their opinion is different than yours I have a major problem with that.

Do I want to see Bent's mod released, yes, very much so and he knows that but I think either we change the rules to allow it in it's current format or we ask him to release just the mod part of it.

[Blitzgott]

I'm vocal because I was asked by a friend to make an observation and comment. I did and then people starting attacking me because of my opinion. I'm not going to let noobs and freeloaders rally around and make up the rules for the whole community because they want what they want. That is my major problem with this whole issue. If vetern content creators opinions are disregarded so easily for this community greater good what leverage or say do I honestly have in this community? Why shouldn't I just nuke HF and my yahoo groups? Of course, I'm not going to but the blatant disrespect for content creators' opinions is disgusting.

You're full of it. It's just like TaskmasterX said in another thread: you and your buddy ips are nothing but elitists.

This post of yours is not even the best example of the point I'm trying to make, but I'll quote this one anyway out of convenience. Basically, from what you've said here and in other threads, you are a contributor and, therefore, people should be biased towards your opinions. That's right. When someone disagrees with you, you get all upity and you start spouting that "freeloader" mumbo-jambo.

Have it ever crossed your mind how would it be like a community composed only of content-creators? How many people do you think would be part such community? Very little, I assure you. And, in such a community, what would be the point of releasing your content? Why would you release a skin for a community of people who can make a skin of the same character, only fitting their tastes better? You'd be nothing then.

You people should quit it with the elitism. Everbody respects a content-creator for what he has done. But that does not make him more a member of the community than anybody else.

Anyway, staying on topic, I support Benton's mod and I don't see what's wrong with it. Even has content that is not used in the campaign. I don't remember seeing Deja Vu, Pinstripe or any dinosaurs in the main campaign.

Just for the fun of it, I've looked for some of the meshes included in the DCUG in some of the mesh lists I know of, and there were many I did not find listed. This mod is also serving the purpose of bringing back some content that, otherwise, could have been lost forever to the regular user.

People will still visit the site to look for Marvel/Image/DBZ/whatever meshes, and if there is a new DC one out there, they might check it out as well. As for the complaint about the skins, brought up by ips in the DCUG thread, I've never heard anything about a mod's purpose being to fuel the ego of Random Skinner #26. I've never made a mod myself, but I believe it's common sense that, when you make a mod, you'll try to make it as good as possible, in both gameplay and aesthetics. If Benton thinks C6 skins are better-looking than the others there are out there, it's nothing but natural that he'd choose to use them. Also, not everbody thinks C6's skins are the best ones. Unless you're talking about players who will make do with whatever you place in their hands, there will always be those who will look for better/alternative. There is possibility that those who will look for better/alternative will not find it, and will just stick with C6's skins, as there are also those who have used a skin by, for example, the_ultimate_evil, and then found out that someone made a better one, in his opinion, and will delete the old skin from his HD and switch it for the new skin. You'll never know which skins from which creators a person is using, so all of the skin whini--... I mean argument, is moot.

[Gremlin]

I think we need to expand the question here, Tommy. This is about more than BG's mod. As near as I can tell, he's not going to release it again. The pertinent question is, as near as I can tell, what are the limits of modders who use others' content? I'd even venture another: how do we resolve conflicts of this extent in the future?

While I don't produce any artistic content that someone would want to incorporate into a mod, and my opinion as a contributor is therefore moot, I'd like to chime in as a member of the community at the very least. I think the best solution would be for individual artists to decide what can be done with their content. IPS expressed his desire for BG to remove his content from the DCUG, and he did; Vertex argued against it, but wanted the situation to be resolved allowing the mod to survive, presumably with any additions of his still included. While I understand artists' concerns over the principle of the thing, it would serve the community best if each creator decided it on their own, and other artists respected their wishes.

In the future, should an event of this magnitude rear its ugly head again, I think the best option would be a conference of the Administrators and Moderators to decide the solution. The reason this needed a resolution was not because of the issue itself, but because of the harm the drama caused us. Words were said, tempers flared, and most importantly, it spilled out of the relevant thread and poisoned other interactions. The damage done to this community was massive and depressing. In the future, that kind of damage needs to prevented, and compromising to resolve the issue quickly, quietly and definitively is, I believe, more important than either side getting their way. However, as I said, my bias is in protecting the community as a whole, not towards the rights of creators, modders or players, and as such may be irrelevant, although I feel it is not.

[AfghanAnt]

I killed this response because Grem asked.

[Gremlin]

Both of you, please, take this to PM if you wish to continue arguing. This thread should be about resolving this issue, not stirring up more trouble.

[AfghanAnt]

Both of you, please, take this to PM if you wish to continue arguing. This thread should be about resolving this issue, not stirring up more trouble.

Don't worry, I'm done.

[Gremlin]

Both of you, please, take this to PM if you wish to continue arguing. This thread should be about resolving this issue, not stirring up more trouble.

Don't worry, I'm done.

Thank you. Now, to the details.

Do I want to see Bent's mod released, yes, very much so and he knows that but I think either we change the rules to allow it in it's current format or we ask him to release just the mod part of it.

Well, the problem with that is the mod is primarily supposed to be those characters and such. If anything, in BG's vision the missions were the "extras." While I'd like to see that option, it isn't what he wants to release.  So, how should the rule be changed, specifically? Should we allow torrents if creators agree to their material being used?

[Blitzgott]

Exactly who am I saying I am more elite than? All I've ever said was as an active community member who has published countless work, I think content distribution should be discussed with those who distribute it.

That's no what you have been doing. I agree that a content-creator has the rights over what he has created; however, you went far beyond that. If you had a problem with your content being part of the DCUG mod, you could have just asked for it to be removed, and it would have been, just like ips's content was when the latter asked Benton to. You'd be exercising your right then. But instead of that, you and ips began this whole argument because you and him took it upon yourselves to speak in the name of the community, and began spouting non-archived rules about a limit to content released in a mod. So, in that case, you were not exercising your rights over YOUR content; you were trying to control how the content of other creators, who had nothing against Benton's project, is used.

At one point most of the active people who made the decisions around these parts were content creators and community mods, but again maybe you are too much a noob to know about that.

You didn't even get what I was trying to say.

Actually I don't agree with that and it's my opinion (and let me stress how it is just an opinion and people should stop crucifying me for it) that if you lurk, freeload, or you are an active requester, you shouldn't decide what direction the content community moves towards. You movements are based purely on you receiving more free stuff. You aren't looking after content creators interests just your own "give-mes" and "I needs".

You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.

[AfghanAnt]

Well, the problem with that is the mod is primarily supposed to be those characters and such. If anything, in BG's vision the missions were the "extras." While I'd like to see that option, it isn't what he wants to release.  So, how should the rule be changed, specifically? Should we allow torrents if creators agree to their material being used?

Well not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.

The whole concerned over people's work not being seen or used because of how the mod could effect the community is really lesser of my concerns. That is how things essentially work around here. Honestly while I don't like it, I'm not a preference nazi. If you like certain things, just use them if not people could always replace them in the character folder.

[Gremlin]

Breathe. We're all cool here.

Exactly who am I saying I am more elite than? All I've ever said was as an active community member who has published countless work, I think content distribution should be discussed with those who distribute it.

That's no what you have been doing. I agree that a content-creator has the rights over what he has created; however, you went far beyond that. If you had a problem with your content being part of the DCUG mod, you could have just asked for it to be removed, and it would have been, just like ips's content was when the latter asked Benton to. You'd be exercising your right then. But instead of that, you and ips began this whole argument because you and him took it upon yourselves to speak in the name of the community, and began spouting non-archived rules about a limit to content released in a mod. So, in that case, you were not exercising your rights over YOUR content; you were trying to control how the content of other creators, who had nothing against Benton's project, is used.

Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?

[Gremlin]

Well, the problem with that is the mod is primarily supposed to be those characters and such. If anything, in BG's vision the missions were the "extras." While I'd like to see that option, it isn't what he wants to release.  So, how should the rule be changed, specifically? Should we allow torrents if creators agree to their material being used?

Well not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.

The whole concerned over people's work not being seen or used because of how the mod could effect the community is really lesser of my concerns. That is how things essentially work around here. Honestly while I don't like it, I'm not a preference nazi. If you like certain things, just use them if not people could always replace them in the character folder.

The biggest problem I can see with mass file transfer is a lack of permission, which is why I think people need to get the okay from the artists whose content they use. And what's to stop someone from uploading their custom_characters folder? Perhaps we should include the caveat that a mass file needs a) permission from all involved, and b) some kind of context, such as a mod. Perhaps there are other criteria that we can establish to deliniate between acceptable and unacceptable mass file transfers.

One thing that I'm looking at for precedent is the EZFX and VPMAX packs. How were those organized and okayed by the community? I think they're a good starting point for deciding what to do here.

Agreed, and since it's not something that holds immediate relevance (although I may be wrong), since it cannot be regulated, I would say that further discussion on people being inadvertently excluded is not terribly salient to our current discussion.

[TaskMasterX]

Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it. The community itself shouldn't be deciding what or how a content creators' stuff is used or distributed. It should be up to the content creator and only that content creator. No one else needs to chime in on behalf of that content creator. They have a mouth, let them use it. Ecspecially if you want to keep stating that it doesn't matter to you.
Those that don't have an issue should keep there mouths shut. There's no need to add arguments on anothers behalf. If there has been a precedent, then why is it even an issue? I voted for the precedent.

[Vertex]

Well not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.

YAY now let's get a FR wiki codex created like I'm pushing for (shameless plug)

[AfghanAnt]

Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?

Exactamundo.

Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.

Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.

[Gremlin]

Well not just torrents per say, but we should allow mass file transfer if Bent wants his mod to see the light of day. Honestly I wish we could organize something like FFCenter of the days of past where everyone stuff is there for the picking and choosing.

YAY now let's get a FR wiki codex created like I'm pushing for (shameless plug)

I don't know if that's the same thing. Having links to where the creator hosts their files is entirely different from having all the files gathered in one place for convenience.

Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?

Exactamundo.

AWESOME. So, just so we're explicitly clear, it is entirely possible for a consensus to be reached here. Now we need to figure out what, exactly, that consensus is.

[AfghanAnt]

You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.

Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.

[detourne_me]

Voicing my opinion about Benton Grey's Mod:
I voted for yes with precedents.
I was quite happy that the mod was to include hero files for all characters being built-in.
I though that this would be great for EZScript stories as not just Benton, but ANYBODY could write EZ script stories that could be plugged into the mod.  
I thought this would be an innovative way to keep all of the custom content fresh.

[Gremlin]

You don't have any more rights because what you have done, you've done out of your own volition. I might be wrong, but back when you were a noob, I don't think somebody came over to you and said: "Hey! Why don't you start making skins a meshes for the community?" You simply decided that you wanted to contribute, and began to. You were not forced into doing anything; nobody asked you to do anything, and you do not have any responsibilities towards doing or not doing something for the community.

Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.

I don't think this discussion is necessarily relevant to the issue at hand.

Now, I'm a little confused here. I'm seeing two conflicting precedents.

"Wrong," resulting in banning in the past
-Electro's fx pack
-

Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.

Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.

"Okay," resulting in no conflict.
-EZFX
-VPMAX
-

...my AvengersSpecial mod or my LSH Mod or furie and bil's rumble mod.

How do we define the difference? DOes anyone have more information on who has been banned in the past for stuff like this?

[Vertex]

Okay I was asked to post this for Benton because he felt compelled to say something.


"  I have been informed that this discussion is still going on, and what's more, still going on in the kind of destructive fashion that I took my mod down to counteract.  I feel compelled to take some measure, be it ever so indirect, to try and restore an element of peace to the community.  I am not willing to get engaged in this conversation while it is still taking this kind of form, but I will offer this statement in the hopes that the situation will be improved and the community spared more damage.

  First, let me ask all of you, on both sides of this debate, to stop personal attacks.  This is the kind of thing that makes people drop out of the community, and any loss diminishes us more than we can afford.  It does not matter who has done what, nor who has said what, we need each other, both creators and players.  Thank you all for caring so much about my work that you feel the need to keep the battle going, but it is not worth the health of the community to pursue it in this way.  I meant every word I typed in my thread, and I am and will be open to an arbitrated discussion.  However, I will not be releasing a mod to a divided community.  I have poured my heart and soul into this project to help the community, and not to hurt it.  I have every hope that this community can solve these problems, and I believe that we must if we are to survive AS a community.  That does not necessarily mean that I have every confidence that things will go 'my way.'  This should not be about me, nor my work, at least not entirely.

  If you wish to use my mod as a yardstick, to give you concretes to talk about, very well, but if we approach the questions at hand as merely an attempt to get my little project released, we are missing much larger issues.  These issues need to be addressed, and need to be addressed sooner rather than later, apparently, as the continuing uncertainty is, by all accounts I am hearing, producing even more strife.  While our entire community has a stake in this, I am afraid that the final decision cannot be made merely by a majority vote of said community.  In the end, the question of torrents, the definition thereof, and the rules concerning them need to be codified, and this needs to be done by the content creators.  I know this may seem like a strange thing for me to say, but in the end the question is 'how shall we treat THEIR work,' and only they have the right to decide that.

  I feel that I, myself, am not much of a creator, but to my everlasting pride, I am regarded as such.  Still, I feel like I am walking a line somewhere between the two, and therefore sympathetic to the concerns of both.  This does not mean that the rest of us have no right to speak on the matter, however, this decision is theirs and theirs alone.  Inversely, it cannot be made by one or two of the content creators, but must be discussed and decided upon by the content community as a whole.  Just as I have no right to tell a skinner how their work should be treated, they have no right to dictate to another artists how their respective work should be used.  I suggest that, for the good of the community, the skinners, meshers, FXers, and modders, the content creators that form our foundation, be invited to discuss the matter, but under the arbitration of some authority, be it elected or an admin or Titan, to make certain that things stay rational and unemotional.  This should be done in private, out of the eyes of the public, so that artists are not attacked for a view that they may or may not hold, and to avoid more strife while the issues are resolved.  I will not organzie this, as I want to make it perfectly clear that I am not trying to manipulate things in my interest, but I do want what is best for the community.  This is a suggestion on a way to resolve the matter, and for the good of us all, I hope that someone steps up to bring order here.  Now, I will continue my vacation from the boards, and I hope that in my absence, matters will improve."

[Blitzgott]

Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?

I think it's both sad and amazing that a "long-standing" rule of such (apparent) relevance was not recorded anywhere for the purpose of reminding the community of its existence.

Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.

Except you're not in a torrent website. Here, for all I know, all you're gonna get is respect and appreciation. Your "privileges" are having people treat you a little nicer than the next guy and/or listen to your opinions more attentively. Please enlighten me of any other privileges you might have, if any.

[Gremlin]

Actually, that was his point. AA, near as I can tell, actually supported the project, but he felt that the principle of the thing violated a long-standing taciturn ban on torrents. He had an issue with the way it was carried out. It's not necessarily wrong for someone to defend rights that they don't themselves use. AA, is that about right?

I think it's both sad and amazing that a "long-standing" rule of such (apparent) relevance was not recorded anywhere for the purpose of reminding the community of its existence.

Actually, I'm curious about this too, and am researching it now to see if there is precedent for such thing. A shame we don't have access to the oldest parts of the boards, but even if we don't, there should still be information concerning who is banned. It may even be that the consensus to avoid torrents was never really written in stone, just suggested when the community was young. Hopefully we'll soon see.

Bad example but, when I think about decision being made I think about torrent ratio. For most sites, if your torrent ratio is higher than a given number you get more privileges however since everyone start at the bottom but there comes a time when you taking is more than your given and either you are banned or forced to contribute. It may not be the correct way to do things but I think it is the most democratic and hopeful to online communities but what do I know I just work in SEO and internet marketing for a living.

Except you're not in a torrent website. Here, for all I know, all you're gonna get is respect and appreciation. Your "privileges" are having people treat you a little nicer than the next guy and/or listen to your opinions more attentively. Please enlighten me of any other privileges you might have, if any.

As near as I can tell this discussion is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

[TaskMasterX]

Personally, I think that those that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones binded by it.

Tell that to the mods who have banned people for less then.

So, wait a second. You mean to tell me the FR community made a rule that forced content creators to not allow their content in a torrent or be banned? You can't, as a content creator, decide how your own work is distributed?

EDIT:
After re-reading this, I think I see where the misunderstanding is. What I meant was Content Creators that have agreed to the "torrent rule" should be the only ones that should be binded by it. If a content creator states that their content is free to be used in any way as long as credit is given, then the content should be allowed in a torrent that includes credits, no? And no one else, no matter what their position is on the "torrent rule", other than the content creator can come along and voice his/her issue with a modder for how their own content was used.

EDIT again: Actually after reading my first post, it's quite clear what I meant. AA either didn't read my whole post or took my sentence out of context.