Mod Discussion

[Green Hornet]

In the recent upset over the DCUG  I think we need established written rules for making mods.  This should be a community project  :thinkingideawhere  we can come to a consensus on the rules.  This way when some one starts a mod everything is clear and no one can get upset with the result. 

I understand that when someone makes a skin it is their artwork. But where is the line when it is a copy write character that is owned by Marvel DC etc?  If a skin and mesh are released to the community then the community has the permission to use it in the game.  Most have a read me file that tells who made it.  I think if what is released to the community the artist is giving his permission for it to be used by the community.  Now the artist has the right not to release it to the community then no one will be able to use it, unless they ask the artist for permission to use it.  I have seen people post their artwork but not release it which is their choice.  So if the mesh and skin are released in the community in sense the permission is give for it's use in the spirit of the game.  Whether it is a mod, rumble room or addition to game.  If we come to an agreement on the written rules this will stop the upset that happen over DCUG. 

[tommyboy]

I made a permission thread in the meshes forum so that creators can express their wishes as to how their work may be used in Mods.
So far a number have done so, so I would hope it's clear whose work may be used in a Mod and whose may not.
I strongly urge creators to make their wishes clear publicly, rather than PM back and forth or "avoiding an argument", because we need this sorted out.
We all want fair use, and to respect each other and creator's wishes.
The only way that we can respect their wishes is if they make them known.

[AfghanAnt]

No offense Green Hornet but how do you have right to start this topic?

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

While I do have a definite opinion on the subject, I think IPS's initial reaction is the correct one.  This discussion should be tabled until a much later time.

Besides, given the fact that this has only come up once after so many years means that it is unlikely to come up again in the near near future, so it is certainly practical to just put the discussion off for a while.

And AA is also correct, GH.  You aren't a modder, artist, or mesher, so why in the world are you basically trying to start another possible community damaging argument right after the last one?  You have no vested interest in this subject, so I suggest you leave it for those who do and just enjoy such toys as are still available for your use.

[tommyboy]

So when can it be discussed then?
And by whom?
Community rules should be open to the whole community regardless of who may have made what.

[detourne_me]

ok,   i'm damn glad i'm drunk every time i come to this site now.
how does Green Hornet have no vested interest in the siuation.
I assume he is a player of the game, and a player of mods to the game. his interests are that we as community can allow creators (skinners, fx'ers, meshers, skopes, hexers and mod'ers...thats a lot of er's) to create content for others to enjoy.
He has vested interests in this, as do we all.
Seriously, we cant all be superstars, and I truly appreciate the content that the superstars do create, cripes i aspire to be one, but i'm a damn fool and my own lack of talent and conviction have stopped such a fate from happening.

Ok,  so tensions are still running high (as evidenced by this post) but what, are we going to have a moratorium on discussing mods for 1,2,3 months?
There have been at least 3 threads started by people in different sections of the site that want to open discussion in an optimistic manner...
maybe those posts are too optimistic and "let's pretend nothing happened" in nature for the offended parties.

Now, I tend to agree with IPS that it's too soon. However personal barbs at lack of knowledge aren't necessary.

Personally I find it strange how this community is against torrents. But I understand that it is because of our subject matter itself why such disagreements and discussions exist.
We're all gawdammed obsessed with superheroes, the idea of "doing the right thing" and all of the heroic endeavors  that they entail.
This extends to ideas of personal property versus communal sharing. pride versus theft.  Cripes, i wish ow_tiobe and dr. mike would chime in at one point.


We've all invested a lot into this game, be it time (in producing content, and in consuming content) or in money (supporting sites) so please, allow everybody an opinion.

[Vertex]

ok,   i'm damn glad i'm drunk every time i come to this site now.
how does Green Hornet have no vested interest in the siuation.
I assume he is a player of the game, and a player of mods to the game. his interests are that we as community can allow creators (skinners, fx'ers, meshers, skopes, hexers and mod'ers...thats a lot of er's) to create content for others to enjoy.
He has vested interests in this, as do we all.
Seriously, we cant all be superstars, and I truly appreciate the content that the superstars do create, cripes i aspire to be one, but i'm a damn fool and my own lack of talent and conviction have stopped such a fate from happening.

Ok,  so tensions are still running high (as evidenced by this post) but what, are we going to have a moratorium on discussing mods for 1,2,3 months?
There have been at least 3 threads started by people in different sections of the site that want to open discussion in an optimistic manner...
maybe those posts are too optimistic and "let's pretend nothing happened" in nature for the offended parties.

Now, I tend to agree with IPS that it's too soon. However personal barbs at lack of knowledge aren't necessary.

Personally I find it strange how this community is against torrents. But I understand that it is because of our subject matter itself why such disagreements and discussions exist.
We're all gawdammed obsessed with superheroes, the idea of "doing the right thing" and all of the heroic endeavors  that they entail.
This extends to ideas of personal property versus communal sharing. pride versus theft.  Cripes, i wish ow_tiobe and dr. mike would chime in at one point.


We've all invested a lot into this game, be it time (in producing content, and in consuming content) or in money (supporting sites) so please, allow everybody an opinion.

Bravo (so sarcasm intended)
Matters like this involve a community as a whole. Bickering and arguing don't solve a matter and I agree it's time to table the matter and let things cool. I don't think it's right to exclude a member of the community because they don't make something themselves. We're all a dysfunctional family (at least to my eyes) and the whole family gets an opinion. Although I do agree .. too soon to bring things up. and when/if they are... let's let it be civil and not a fight. Let the fighting be done and perhaps a community poll or something made later to establish what if any rules there are.. and they be written down afterwards.

[Green Hornet]

I think everyone in the community could have insight in the discussion.  We know the who are the best meshers and skinners here and sometimes a new one comes along.  Rather than starting out on what we do not agree on.  Lets start on what we agree on and work from there.  If it was not for    we would not be here.  Now if you want to take jabs at me go ahead.  But that will not solve any issues.  Now we could start kicking people out of the community because we do not agree with them.  Question being who will be left?  I did not start this to be an arguement among all of us but to get common ground and work things to the benefit of all.  Lets not take the stand I will take all my toys and go home.  Now if you think I don't belong here and I have no right to say anything then I will leave.   

[detourne_me]

i'm down with that idea.

[Green Hornet]

I think it would be great for Tommyboy to moderate it if he wants to. 

[tommyboy]

I'm OK with a discussion in a month, but I'm not convinced we need a moderator, or that I should be it if we do. My views are partisan, even though I understand and respect the views of those who feel differently.
I would hope we can reason together at such time.

[The Nemesis]

We're all gawdammed obsessed with superheroes, the idea of "doing the right thing" and all of the heroic endeavors  that they entail.
This extends to ideas of personal property versus communal sharing. pride versus theft

This is actually more true than you think. ips I have no idea why you think Green Hornet is so misinformed. Have you ever seen a 'cease and desist' letter or email concerning intellectual property?

There is no such thing as "copyright/authorship rights over the work they've created because it is their creative interpretation of the intellectual property".

I've read the BCUG thread and I would go as far as to say you were sometimes forceful getting your point across. In this case I'm chiming in cause there is no matter of opinion here, your actually wrong. The holder of an IP owns all of that IP. If you do a derivative work of that IP they own it (sounds wierd the first time you read that, I know).

I don't know if you know anything about how this relates to Machinima, but I'll tell you it does so a fair piece. In the 9 or so years I've been making Machinima, I've seen a fair number of cease and desists, read articles (written by legal experts) about it, and even spoken to a few lawyers. As far as I'm aware this ownership of creative interpretation you speak of is fictional. What you are talking about falls under derivative works. Copyright wise you have no leg to stand on with that.

I started this post with a quote from detourne_me because from the very moment people started making Marvel or DC skins (or any label), that stuff has always been owned by the IP holders. When a C&D is issued, I've often, if not always seen it with instructions to hand over all offending materials after which time the auther is asked to delete it from their computers.

All "rules" that are followed here and have been followed up till this point are a matter of courtesy and respect, NOT followed because of any legal issue.

In the case of DCUG only DC has any legal say. As far as I could tell Benton cancelled the mod because of respect for the artists whose work was involved and because he didn't like what this was doing to the community, not because he had a legal obligation to the artists who made the particular skins or mods.

So no offence, but it's your understanding of copyright that seems underdeveloped.

[The Nemesis]

Legal arguments on the internet. They are strange things cause few people know a lot about IP law. As a result the the more vehemently a person presses their point the more they appear to be right to others who also know little about it. I hate these arguments, and I won't let this become one so this will be my last post on this matter.

I understand why you WANT what you say to be true. You put hard working into making what you make. The idea that you don't own that effort isn't nice at all. But if you really do believe that you do, consider this.

If for example, I made a DCUG all with DC skins that you made and you didn't approve, all you can do is ask me to take it down. That's the entirety of your legal power. If I started distributing the skins against your wishes, you actually think you would have some kind of claim in court? No. You'd have nothing. DC would though.

The limit of your power is to convince sites or forums not to support such efforts, or not to link to it, and it would have to be done of their own volition. You can't email an ISP or hosting service demanding it be taken down, you don't have that right.. but DC does.

Even if I started selling the mod you can legally do nothing other than inform DC, you're entitled to a grand total of $0... but DC could actually file for damages and take some or all of that money (and then some). You have the right to do none of these things. This is intellectual property man. This is a realm in which you create things yet don't own them. It happens everyday.
So please feel free to re-iterate what you've previously said, you seem to do that a lot. the last thing we are doing is arguing the same point.

Personally I believe you feel your influence on this matter is waiving, and that's why your resorting to this. This community works on honour and not law for good reason.

[tommyboy]

Aaand we're done.
Please can we either start a new discussion on IP law and copyright, or wait the month and throw it into the Big Debate?

[AfghanAnt]

is this a fight about when we should talk about the fight?

Also IP law and copyright? Really? Last time I checked we do not own any of these characters we are always bitching about.

[Vertex]

yes please go to PM on this.. intellectual talk makes my head hurt.

[The Nemesis]

thanks. this really could have been handled via pm if you wanted to challenge my knowledge of copyright.

The way I've seen it you're misleading the community. Not a private matter by a long shot, and also something difficult to simply let lie for a month. My personal  note at the end is more IM suitable, but not the rest of the post.

Having read your last post, I really do wish I had less to do so I could tell you where you're going oh so wrong, but I've said my piece to you as far as this instance goes be it by PM or otherwise.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Nemesis, the previous argument had nothing to do with copyright issues.  The artists involved actually gave permission IPS's stuff was immediately pulled.  It goes slightly further than that.

I think the community pretty much came to an agreement on what you are talking about a long time ago.  The artist controls distribution rights, period.

[The Nemesis]

catwhowalksbyhimself, I think you miss my point.
I know that it's not a legal issue because legally, there are no rights to DC or Marvel characters held within this community.
If you read my first message it ended with a reminder that this community works on honour and not law. By that I mean respect as opposed to IP or any legal laws.

I tried to correct ips but he thinks he has it licked. I've left it there.

[Gremlin]

we all have a right to peaceful co-existence here. anyone should be able to discuss this. but what's the harm in letting at least a couple weeks go by and the current issues die before we start a new divisive argument. cat is right. there aren't many times this sorta problem has come up. it's not pressing that it be discussed while most of us are still bitter. (yes that includes me)

Seconded. Let it rest for now.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

dood, let it go. you're the only one arguing about copyright. you're the only one who's brought it up (in any way) in years. it's not even relevant to any of the discussions we've had.

He's correct.

Regardless, I think we should let it all drop for a month and you are welcome to join in that discussion then.

[Gremlin]

Mods/Admins? Lock for a month? Please? *puppy dog eyes*

[tommyboy]

I actually want there to be a special sub-forum called "the Thunderdome" where all future arguments will take place.
Two posters enter, but only two posters leave! Slightly peeved, because nobody ever "wins" on the internet..although everyone always thinks they will..
Dah Dah DAAAAAHH!

[Vertex]

actually at NPI forum we HAD a Thunderdome

[Gremlin]

anyone ever use it?

I think so, but for the life of me I can't remember who or when.

Also. Win for Tommyboy.

[tommyboy]

lol. that's my fav post ever i think.

Thankyew, I'll be here all week, try the veal..

actually at NPI forum we HAD a Thunderdome

See? It's worked retroactively, THAT's how good an idea it is!

[Vertex]

once or twice but I think only for fun

[Previsionary]

anyone ever use it?

Syn (or HQ) vs. Vlad. I'm pretty sure it was used once for them. Hrm.

[bearded]

i have some thoughts.  i think i am clear in my head on this, and not overcome with feeling.
i don't think waiting a month will help.  ppl will just get angry then instead of now.  the important thing is to calmly discuss the issues.  the only reason i am posting this is because i have come to some insights i want to share.
we have no mod precedents.  we do have other precedents.
we have kitbashing precedents.  if i kitbash and release, that is wrong.  with good reason.
if i have skins from tommyboy, ips, and unkoman and they say i can kitbash and release as my own, that seems to me to be ok, based on past precedent.  i don't think i need every skinners permission to release these hypothetical new skins.
if i choose only certain skinners to bash from, and have all their permission, that is not monopolizing.  it is saying that the skinners that don't agree and don't want me to do not get their parts in my skins.  and that feels like force i think.
please.  if this post makes you angry, pm me.  i will try to calmly discuss it with you.
if you have an explanation that will help me understand this better, and help others understand it better, please calmly post a reply.

[tommyboy]

Bil, I think I'm pretty calm on the matter.
I'm willing to discuss it, but if others want to leave it a while, I have to listen to what they are saying and try to respect that.
Imagine we were all in a bar, and an argument like this started, and some were saying "lets not do this till we've all cooled down a bit". I'd like to think I wouldn't keep pushing the matter till someone snapped and glassed me (for americans, smash a beer glass in my face). Because I'd see their anger, hear it in their tone of voice, read their body posture. And then I'd glass them first...no, wait bad example..
So, that's why I'm reluctantly putting off a big public debate till the month is up. Or less, if people come around sooner.
My grievance is not with any individual or group of people. I feel we as a community let Benton down by encouraging him to make the Mod, and then remembering the "rule" too late. This isn't aimed at the people who bought it up, but at us all. We need to do better by each other, to not fall into recrimination or bitterness at the first sign of a difference of opinion. We need to move forward, and today, tonight, I don't have those answers. I don't know how, or even if we can make this right in a way that won't leave someone feeling some wrong has been done. I need the time to think, and to know what I say and do isn't some misunderstanding or passing mood, that I mean it.
You know I'll talk via PM with you in the meantime, and if enough other people feel Now Is The Time for Public Talk, I'll try to make some sense here. But if we are just going to butt heads again and argue round in circles, I don't think that helps anyone.