the worth of batman

[bearded]

i was playing batman today ( i have him with ffx trickshot with the fx customized to batarangs) and wonderwoman vs a giant mech robot, nuclear winter, kang, and sandman.
while wonderwoman was mired with sandman, batman kept the other 3 from destroying buildings or civilians with a lightning rang (robot), a tranq (kang), and bombarangs (nuclear winter).  after she finally turned sandman into mud, she went over and easily took the other 3 out.  trick shot is perfect for batman.
what's bugging me is judo.  i've seen the bat take down hulky guys before with judo type manuevers.  how could one simulate judo in  ?  without it being overpowering i mean.  i know, you can put agility high, and passive defenses, etc, but i'm not clear on how an active defense works in regards to reflecting melee attacks.
do you think there could be an active defense called judo that turns an opponants strength back on themselves?

[AfghanAnt]

A high powered stun melee is what I use for Batman. I don't know if he could take down someone like say Superman with a judo chop but he could slow down a metahuman long enough to use something other attack against him.

[Xenolith]

That's exactly what I do, too.  A stun attack, and perhaps some gadget that does a lot of damage like your different batarangs.  I gave him a passive defense which give him a good change of dodging attacks, but your active defense: judo with a dummy fx is a good idea.

[BentonGrey]

Howdy Bearded!  Yeah, Batman is a great utility player for the League.  I have him with a nice multi-hit combo that will hurt street level guys, and a medium powered punch with high stun.  He's also got his array of batarangs, some mines, and a really useful smoke pellet that has very high stun and causes blindness.  I tried giving him (and his ilk, Robin, Batgirl, Blue Beetle, etc.) an active defense in which they could dodge attacks, but the FF2 changes to active defenses makes that a non-workable idea for built ins.  They just spam them, becoming pretty much completely invulnerable when used by the computer.  Since you can't alter the length of active defenses for built-ins, that's a problem.  How I have Batman step up his power is by calling in a vehicle.  He can call in the Batmobile, and roll around the map in a heavily armored car equipped with rubber bullets, or call in the Batwing and zoom in with missiles, nets, and other weapons. 

[Epimethee]

An aspect of judo could be simulated using the Throw power swap.

I tried giving him (and his ilk, Robin, Batgirl, Blue Beetle, etc.) an active defense in which they could dodge attacks, but the FF2 changes to active defenses makes that a non-workable idea for built ins.  They just spam them, becoming pretty much completely invulnerable when used by the computer.  Since you can't alter the length of active defenses for built-ins, that's a problem.

Actually, you can – there is just no interface to do it in FFEdit! But, thanks to Stumpy's DATFiles Python module, you can change them using the FF console with the Campaign_ChangeActiveDefenceDuration() command. See the FFX manual under Mod-Making > DAT Files > Powers.dat > Utility Functions.

[BentonGrey]

Well, that is good news Epi, but I think I'll wait until one of the expansions to tackle it.

[Xenolith]

It never occured to me to use throw for judo.     Great idea.

[bearded]

couple of crazy questions:
1.  can the throw swap be used in any way on an active or passive defense power?
2.  i know redirect and reflect work with an active defense on projectiles, but do they work on melee attacks?  i honestly have never been able to tell, which leads me to believe that would be a no.
ramping up his power with the batmobile...now that's an idea.  i wonder how i can do that in  ?  must be a way, i'll think on it.  one of the main reasons i stick with  , by the way, is for the power system.  but when your dc universe, bentongrey, is fully done, i will upgrade and use both, i'm sure.
there must be a way to do judo more effectively.  turning someone's force against themselves.

[BentonGrey]

Thanks Bearded, I can't think of much higher praise than to overcome the power system difference because of my little project.   I don't know how to do the vehicle thing in FF1, although there were some attempts at the vehicle code for it.  You MAY be able to use some of the code created for FF2 in the first game, but I wouldn't be the one to ask about that.  As far as Judo, well, in FF2 I know that reflect does work with melee.  I have Dove (of Hawk and) set with an active defense called Akido.  He reflects most melee damage back at its source.  It makes him sorta' cool in melee.  The throw swap for Judo is also an excellent idea!

[Epimethee]

ramping up his power with the batmobile...now that's an idea.  i wonder how i can do that in  ?  must be a way, i'll think on it.

You might indeed try to using FFX 3.3's Driver/Vehicle code; I'm not sure it'll work correctly, though, as some of its functions may use FFvsTTR-specific code.

one of the main reasons i stick with  , by the way, is for the power system.

Hmm... I don't quite remember, but if the key issue is the number of grades of required energy, this is probably the same issue as for active defence duration: only th user interface is missing. Stumpy probably knows. If it's the case, you could set energy requirements to FF1 values. Alternatively, you could set the maximum default energy for everyone to 150 instead of 100 (105 in FFX with the Push EP option checked).

[Lunarman]

Perhaps go with an active defense, with melee reflect. and a KD power (maybe a stasis that swaps for something, so it breaks and the foe falls down), or just a really low KB power.

[stumpy]

I didn't notice this thread when it was first posted. Now I'm glad I did.

one of the main reasons i stick with  , by the way, is for the power system.

Hmm… I don't quite remember, but if the key issue is the number of grades of required energy, this is probably the same issue as for active defence duration: only th user interface is missing. Stumpy probably knows.

That's true. The energy changes in the second game are mostly user interface changes. Internally, it's still possible to have powers that use Trace, Minor, etc. amounts of energy, with the caveat that Low is now 33 EP, Medium is 66 EP and High is 100 EP. Internally, the game still represents the EP costs as follows:

EP Cost Name			none		trace		minor		very low		low		medium		high		very high		extreme
Internal Code			0		1		2		3		4		5		6		7		8

I haven't tried it out, but I would assume that one of the Hero editors, like maybe MrBrdo's, would be an easy way to set a custom hero's powers to use one of the energy costs that is now hidden in FFvT3R.

And, the datfiles module can be used to alter the EP costs of built-in powers. This isn't a complete tutorial, but here's an example of setting a power's EP Cost to one of those from FF that we no longer have in FFvT3R. Let's say I want my Electric Tank character to have his Stunner power (FFEdit name 'electank Stunner') set up so the EP Cost is Minor (10 EP). I set up the power normally in FFEdit, close FFEdit, then I open the console in the game and enter the following

Code Select Expand

from datfiles import *
MyPower = Campaign_ReadPowers()['electank Stunner']
MyPower['EPCost'] = 2
Campaign_RewritePowers(ChangePowers=[MyPower],ForceRead=1)
loadPowers()
That's it. It will work for any built-in power, just use the correct name for the power and the correct internal code for the EP Cost, as given in the above table. The new EP cost setting for that power will remain even as the game is quit and restarted until it's changed again via a similar procedure or until any change in the power is made in FFEdit.

Keep in mind that the energy bars in the game won't show the right number of bars for the power in the right-click menu (I think they will be rounded down), though they may show up right (using fractional bars) in the portrait in the lower-left. If you look at a character's power in the character editor, I think the EP Cost for the FF settings will show up as None, but the actual points shown next to that should be correct. And FFvT3R's FFEdit won't show the FF energy cost settings properly (I think it lists EP Cost as 'None' for costs it doesn't recognize).

Of course, you can use FFEdit to look at a power modified this way. But, if you use FFEdit to change anything about the power, it will reset the energy cost to one of the FFvT3R levels.

BTW, I don't know how the AI will use characters with powers that use one of the FF EP costs. Maybe M25 knows that.

[bearded]

thanks stumpy!  you are awesome. 
small question.  if this is done in a mod, will it hold for ppl installing the mod, or would they need to do this on each individual installation?

[Epimethee]

It'll hold; you're simply using a command-line interface to change the data, rather than a graphical one (FFEdit).

[wickerman]

Stumpy,

would it frighten you to know that I just fell in love with you?

[stumpy]

Haha. I suppose I can deal with love. Just don't lurk outside my windows; it bugs the neighbors.

[M25]

The AI won't automatically pick up the codes from  , but you can manually set the amount of energy a power costs within the AI file.  For example:

TRanged(my_ranged_power, energy=20),

[bearded]

i've got to wonder...how possible would it be to create a code, maybe third party, that examines each hero power and creates this automatically?