The Marvel Thread

[Podmark]

CBR has the early X-Solicits and our artists for Second Coming are (drum roll):

Uncanny: Terry Dodson
New Mutants: Ibraim Roberson
X-Force: Mike Choi
Legacy: Greg Land

Also X-Factor is tying in.

So somehow Mike Carey drew the short stick. I was hoping Land would be out for this.
Also Cable ends that month as Deadpool and Cable #25, this made me smile a little. Also Deadpool is in at least 5 comics that month - he's giving Wolverine a real run for his money, will it ever end??
Lastly, how did X-Men Forever get up to 22 issues???

[Previsionary]

Yes, Cable is ending because of Second Coming. X-men Forever will be at issue 22 because it comes out 2 times a month (semi-monthly). It's the ASM of the X-men world... minus an issue.

Also, I find it sad that Greg Land is actually affecting my decision to buy Legacy. I didn't know he would influence my thinking so much in regards to books I considered buying.

[AfghanAnt]

AfghanAnt's Quick Dark Avengers #13 Overview:

Spoiler

Insanity + Drug Addiction/Secret Serum = God. Or at least this is what Brian Michael Bendis wants us to believe about the Sentry's newest and truest retconned origin story. Like Mose and Jesus before him, Sentry holds the power of the divine and while the Void mentions to Lindy (who's living status is still confusing to me. Is she a construct? Has she been resurrected?) he is "...Galactus...Devourer of Worlds" I'm pretty sure he said this to express to her just how terrifingly powerful he is (as if the power of a million exploding suns wasn't powerful enough). All and all, like more of the Dark Avenger stories, I found this one compelling. Bendis setting up the Void as the Old Testament God (which as a Jew is exciting and insulting) is interesting. It feels like secular comics are finally breaking into Judeo-Christian mythology the same way movies have been doing for ever. I know a few people are going to be annoyed and even insulted that their faith is being presented here as fiction but this is a fictional worlds where Greek and Norse gods walk amongst men. Why can't Jesus (or at least the source of power get the same opportunity? I finished my Dark Avenger #13 rant over at my blog: Dark Avengers #13: Dear Jebus Superhero

[GhostMachine]

AA, after reading your blog, I think Bendis has lost his mind. I'm not Jewish, but I'm generally offended by anything that's offensive to Jews given the history of the Jewish people and all they've gone through, and this crap with Sentry also offends me as a non-practicing (ie, I don't attend church, but do believe in God) Christian, for obvious reasons. (I'm Baptist)

I honestly think Judeo-Christian figures making appearances should be a no-no in comics. (Erik Larsen's use of God and the Devil in Savage Dragon made me ill) I like how DC handles things with the Spectre; you know he's the embodiment of the Wrath of God and that the Voice who speaks occasionally is God, but at least they have the sense to not come right out and say it or show God. Of course, I'm sure if there are any people around who still worship the Greek/Roman or Norse gods, they're probably just as offended by their use....

Frankly, I'm hoping Marvel ends up killing Sentry off sometime soon. He was a stupid idea to begin with, and if they can't depower him some and settle on a definitive origin and background for him, he really doesn't need to exist.

[AfghanAnt]

I understand how you would think ill of the idea but the whole only these people's religious figures can appear in comic books seems to be a bit of cultural bias.

How many African and Indigenous gods have appeared in the pages of Thor? Tons. How often is Eastern religion and culture bastardized by Western comic writers? Often. Heck, one of Wonder Woman's major love interest was a main god from the world's third largest (and oldest) religion. Religious figures interacting in comics shouldn't call your faith into question anymore than Passion of Christ did to me (sure I feel my religion and people were demonized but what can I do, it's a work of fiction). So saying Jesus is off limit seems like a bit of "we can use your stuff, but you better not use our's".

See what I'm say?

Also how do you feel about characters like Son of Satan, Lilith and Mephisto? Are the enemies of your religion ok to fictionalize but not the heroes?

[thanoson]

I agree with AA. We tend to have a bias towards the Big G when it comes to our funny books. He's always off limits. However, everyone else's is fair game? Oh, and I loved the Savage Dragon. Of course Satan cheats. He's Satan!

[Previsionary]

I'm not going to speak on the religious aspects, as that is a grey area, but I will say that I really dislike Sentry. He's way too inconsistent (reviving people in Dark Avengers but exploding in Dark X-men just because X-man said they were friends?), he hasn't done anything important, and EVERYONE uses him as a glorified bodyguard. Sentry can go sit on an egg all day for all I care; I just don't want to see anything else about him until a new writer takes him on and gives him more of a purpose and direction. Maybe he can meet up with Cyclops and learn how to dispel the Void. Scott did it easily enough. -_-.

[AfghanAnt]

I'm not going to speak on the religious aspects, as that is a grey area, but I will say that I really dislike Sentry. He's way too inconsistent (reviving people in Dark Avengers but exploding in Dark X-men just because X-man said they were friends?), he hasn't done anything important, and EVERYONE uses him as a glorified bodyguard. Sentry can go sit on an egg all day for all I care; I just don't want to see anything else about him until a new writer takes him on and gives him more of a purpose and direction. Maybe he can meet up with Cyclops and learn how to dispel the Void. Scott did it easily enough. -_-.

I'm actually hoping that this Dark Avengers story and Siege lead to some grand sacrifice. I'm not a Sentry hater (he has a neat design and if his crazy was done right it would be nice) but I would like it if he went far, far away for a long time.

[Talavar]

I don't hate the idea of the Sentry, just the execution - especially by Bendis.  The character needs to be taken away from him, and used very sparingly for some time.

[Podmark]

Not going to comment on the whole Sentry is Jesus thing, I'll need to read more about that, but I have mixed feelings about the Sentry in general. I like that Marvel tried to push a new character - that's usually a plus to me. I've always liked that Bendis takes characters that weren't being used or never really got started and tries to push them back into the spotlight, but I don't always like his portrayal of those characters. My big problem with the Sentry is that he supposedly has the power of one million exploding suns and yet I don't think I've ever seen him beat anyone (granted I don't read Bendis Avengers book with any regularity). The guy is supposed to be so powerful yet most of the time he's the first guy out.


In other news Mysterio got a redesign in the latest Spider-Man. He only had a brief appearance but at the moment I don't like the new design, although the revamped fishbowl is interesting. The issue otherwise was quite enjoyable. Actually the Gauntlet has been pretty decent. It's not exactly senses shattering - but that's probably a good thing.

[crimsonquill]

I always thought The Sentry would work better if they made a new version of The Defenders and had them set up as watchdogs over the Earth in case of major events that would require a more omnihero level of attention. Sentry's base would allow the team to see where they would be most needed and if they were busy then contact a more local hero team in the area to handle things. I figured this would allow heroes like Doctor Strange to work on their own from time to time and Clock would contact him if a major crisis unfolded that required a more magical touch.

As for Sentry's constantly evolving origin.. I'm just enjoying the ride since I do love the concept but having him so inconsistently written (and having his power level bouncing between omniman and godman) and then hardly doing anything worth while in a storyline is bugging me quite often. He either is there to intimidate or take out a threat within a few moments before any real establishment could be made of what his powers are besides flying and being indestructable. I guess I'm with everyone else that Sentry ends up being a key to solving the big Avengers storyline that has been threaded through comics since he was first created and then vanishes once again (waiting for better writers many many many years down the road).

- CQ

[BlueBard]

At the risk of turning this into a religious debate... (but remember, we're just talking about something Marvel has done... if they bring religion into comics and this is a comics forum...)

If your religion teaches that there is ONE all-powerful God who created ALL other things, who through prophets and holy writings decreed that no other god should be worshipped and that no 'graven image' be created...

...well, wouldn't YOU be offended by some comic-book misrepresentation?

[BWPS]

At the risk of turning this into a religious debate... (but remember, we're just talking about something Marvel has done... if they bring religion into comics and this is a comics forum...)

If your religion teaches that there is ONE all-powerful God who created ALL other things, who through prophets and holy writings decreed that no other god should be worshipped and that no 'graven image' be created...

...well, wouldn't YOU be offended by some comic-book misrepresentation?

"You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them or serve them;"

I think God is trying to put the ban on worshipping idols. I'm really hoping that no one starts to worship the fictional Sentry. Of course the beginning of the sentence wording does seem to be against creating any graven images of anything in heaven, on earth, or in the water in which case fake plants and those singing bass fish break the second commandment.

I can still understand someone being offended though, so I don't guess I'm really disagreeing with you. But I don't see anything wrong with the company using Jesus as a comic book character given that they've used almost every other religion's big guys (except Allah of course - some people take "offended" to whole new levels).

[Previsionary]

Which is why other religions should be just as offended when all their religious figures appear in comics in misrepresented forms. Where's the outrage there? Just another example of the old adage, "it's funny/fine when it's someone else."

But you know what really offends me? This:



I'm so friggin offended. SO OFFENDED. I'm writing a letter. Who's in?

[Tomato]

I'm in Prem. What's more, while we're at it I'll kick Sentry's butt and end the religious nonsense.














... what? It's not like I'm suggesting me doing something difficult, like fighting Power Pack or Aquaman

[tommyboy]

I think that the problem here may be less the depiction of a religious figure in a comic, but rather that the Void, an evil, mass murdering entity with no redeeming features, is being identified as the same force as the one which Moses, Jesus et al were connected to. Thor, Hercules etc are generally portrayed as heroic and good. The "evil" members of their respective pantheons are shown as such, or at least there are antagonistic gods.
Bendis could have been trying to imply the Sentry is linked to the Good Deity, and the Void is the Devil/Satan/Manichean Other, but it reads as if the force saving the Israelites is the Void. That makes God Evil, or at the very least Amoral to an almost sociopathic extent.
To me, the whole thing smacks of a bid to court controversy and get attention, which of course is basic marketing these days. And its working, a bit.

[BentonGrey]

AfghanAnt's Quick Dark Avengers #13 Overview:

Spoiler

Insanity + Drug Addiction/Secret Serum = God. Or at least this is what Brian Michael Bendis wants us to believe about the Sentry's newest and truest retconned origin story. Like Mose and Jesus before him, Sentry holds the power of the divine and while the Void mentions to Lindy (who's living status is still confusing to me. Is she a construct? Has she been resurrected?) he is "...Galactus...Devourer of Worlds" I'm pretty sure he said this to express to her just how terrifingly powerful he is (as if the power of a million exploding suns wasn't powerful enough). All and all, like more of the Dark Avenger stories, I found this one compelling. Bendis setting up the Void as the Old Testament God (which as a Jew is exciting and insulting) is interesting. It feels like secular comics are finally breaking into Judeo-Christian mythology the same way movies have been doing for ever. I know a few people are going to be annoyed and even insulted that their faith is being presented here as fiction but this is a fictional worlds where Greek and Norse gods walk amongst men. Why can't Jesus (or at least the source of power get the same opportunity? I finished my Dark Avenger #13 rant over at my blog: Dark Avengers #13: Dear Jebus Superhero

.........................Seriously?  That disgusts me.  Yeah, color me offended.  The Spectre is one thing (and a good use of those concepts), but this is something else.  Aligning something with a vague, possibly Judeo-Christian "God" is one thing, but when you bring in Jesus you are crossing a line into something more specific.  It is therefore more offensive when you portray it so...callously...for lack of a better term.  It's like saying..."people who wear white shirts..."  Well, if you have a white shirt, you might take notice, but it is easy enough to ignore.  However, if someone points directly at you and says, "YOU! You in the white shirt!" it is a bit harder to ignore.

You've cited examples of Thor and African gods showing up in comics, but Thor worship had pretty much completely died out a few centuries before Stan and Jack brought the God of Thunder into comics.  He had no more metaphysical weight than Zeus in the society of the day.  The same was true for many of the African gods, those which were actual deities, and not simply made up. (http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/liongod.htm).  The same goes for the Egyptian gods.  I can't remember hearing about anyone worshiping Osiris in the last 500 years or so.

I mean, if you compare this to the use of the Christian God in, say, Sandman, the crass nature of it stands out even more.  Sandman used those concepts and mythologies to tell a really compelling story and wrestle with some fairly profound concepts....Marvel grabs onto them as a sales tactic.  While I didn't really like what Sandman did with the matter of my faith, it was obvious that Gaiman wasn't taking his subject matter for granted, and I can respect that.  I could read and enjoy (some of, not having read all of) those stories.

I sorta' wish I hadn't already quit buying Marvel books, so I could quit all over again.

[BlueBard]

Fortunately, I feel no compelling urge to burn Bendis at the stake.  I'd pray for the sake of his soul if I could work up any strong compassion to do so, but I've got plenty of more relevant things on my mind.

My main concern is for those impressionable minds who might be reading that stuff and getting the wrong ideas.

The Only remedy is still what it's always been... If you don't like it, vote with your wallet.  Since I haven't been reading along and don't have a subscription, it's all good.  I believe God is capable of handling everything else in His own way.

[deano_ue]

the whole sentry thing was just meh to me, i finished the book and just thought what the hell was that. i honestly thought hmm seem bendis is going that route huh, i wont say i called it  dead on but i did think it was one of the ideas sentry could have been.

[herodad1]

dont like sentry and never will. i'm a marvel fan from the time i first picked up a comic but he's the worst superman rip-off yet. as far as GOD and JESUS...lets leave them out of comics. they will end up bendis-ized.

[deano_ue]

the more i think about it, who says the void is actually god etc. why can't he be marvels spectre instead of vengeance it's death

why can't he be bonded to the angel of death.

[AfghanAnt]

the more i think about it, who says the void is actually god etc. why can't he be marvels spectre instead of vengeance it's death

why can't he be bonded to the angel of death.

I thought of that and if he was the Angel of Death wouldn't it still be insulting to Judeo-Christian belief? The Angel of Death is after all who helped Moses free the Jews - that would make him a central figure to not only Jews but also Christians.

Either way Sentry has been empowered by G-O-D, instead of the various gods that run around Marvel comics currently.

[tommyboy]

the more i think about it, who says the void is actually god etc. why can't he be marvels spectre instead of vengeance it's death

why can't he be bonded to the angel of death.

Because:
From Wikipedia
"
?    This is what the LORD says: 'About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the slave girl, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well. There will be loud wailing throughout Egypt?worse than there has ever been or ever will be again.    ?
    
? Exodus 11:4?6

The tenth and final plague of Egypt was the death of all Egyptian first born ? no one escaped, from the lowest servant to Pharaoh's own first-born son, including first-born of livestock. Before the plague, God commanded Moses to inform all the Israelites to mark lamb's blood on the doorposts on every door in which case the LORD (Yahweh in Hebrew, not the angel of death as is commonly thought - see Exodus 12:12-13 and Exodus12:29) will pass over them, thus sparing all the Israelite first-borns. This was the hardest blow upon Egypt and the plague that finally convinced Pharaoh to submit, and let the Israelites go."

So there you have it. It explicitly states that it is God who commands Moses in the scene Bendis shows us, and God who takes the lives of the first born. Not an Angel, but God. And God, in this comic, looks EXACTLY like the Void. Bendis is telling us, or at best strongly suggesting that we should infer, that God = Void. If not, then what is the point of the first two pages? And why have his mouthpiece for this issue, Lindy, spell it out for us?
If it's not the case, and it's yet another fake-out by Bendis, I would not be surprised, but it looks like God = Void to me, based on this comic.

[Talavar]

I think what Bendis is suggesting with this comic is some sort of Gnostic relationship, where the Sentry & the Void are two co-equal divine forces, one good and one evil, both basically infinitely powerful.  It's not the first time this sort of thing has been suggested in regards to Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism

I personally don't find this any more offensive than Western comics stealing liberally from everyone else's mythologies; my main objection is that it's not very well done.

[thanoson]

As a heathen, I can't wait for Sentry to go on a killing spree that forces the other heroes (gods included) to have to kill him to save the earth.


What?

[Zippo]

On a lighter note about the sentry, anybody seen the siege promo art in the back of some comics? I have to say, I REALLY like the way Olivier Coipel draws him. I guess I just like Coipel in general, but the sentry needs some love.

[marhawkman]

I'd rather they explain it as yet another delusion of Bob's insanity.....

[Talavar]

In other news, is anyone reading the 'Fall of the Hulks' nonsense?  I've been reading Incredible Hulk since it came back after World War Hulk, but Jeph Loeb & Rulk are my kryptonite, and they seem to be infesting all of the Hulk titles during this event.  Incredible Hulk 606 made very little sense to me because I'm not reading the other titles, and I think I'm dropping it until this event is over.

[Previsionary]

Fall of Hulks and the events in Inc. Hulk 606 are a combination of Hulk, Savage She-Hulk, and Fall of Hulks Gamma and Alpha one-shots. If you're not buying all those things or actively reading spoiler reviews on them, I'd suggest leaving Hulk alone... as I have chosen to do.

All you really need to know is that sometime in the past, The Leader put together a group of villains in order to outsmart Banner and the rest of the MU. This partnership lasted through SEVERAL big events until Doom betrayed them. Betty showed up in Fall of Hulks: Gamma, but I don't remember the story behind her appearance because I didn't read the book.

Anyway, seeing Doom's castle blow up AGAIN (what? Is his castle the new X-mansion?) and seeing him say, "once more with feeling," amused me. And then he said, "what the devil," and I wanted him dead.

[Zippo]

I'd rather they explain it as yet another delusion of Bob's insanity.....

Y'know, after re-reading the issue, I personally get that vibe from it. The only people who claim the sentry has any ties to divinity is his wife and the void. His wife is pretty vague about it too, using it more as a description of his extreme power than an actual fact, and the void being the void, well, it seems like the sort of thing he'd run with to try and get the sentry to bend more to his desires. If the sentry believes he's above human judgement, then the void could just do whatever he wanted with little/no resistance.