Justice League film confirmed

[Shogunn2517]

I don't think "a Hawaiian can't play an Atlantean!" is an adult argument, and doesn't compare to a Caucasian playing a Chinese role.

That's fine.  Because no one is saying "a Hawaiian can't play an Atlantean."  Actually Benton, might be but that's due to the actor's actual ability, which has nothing to do with what he looks like.

What has been said is that a Half Hawaiian, half German/Irish/NATIVE AMERICAN actor wouldn't look right for the role he's been playing, a Caucasian, blonde-haired, blue-eyed Atlantean.  He doesn't resemble the character audiences and fans readily recognize as Aquaman.  Even if you you'd just dye is hair blonde or give him a wig.  It's already been discussed, even in this thread, about how other actors didn't look right with dyed hair in comic-book roles and it did have an effect on how people viewed those movies.  It is NOT a childish or racially insensitive argument to have similar reservations here.

How is it NOT an adult argument to desire an actor to LOOK like the character he's portraying.  I am almost positive if I were to go to every thread on this forum, I'd find a discussion about an actor looking like the character he's portraying.  Are these all not adult arguments now?

[JeyNyce]

Looks aside, I have a couple of questions to throw out here:

1- Which version of Aquaman are they going to put in the movie?  (missing hand, I hate the surface world, the passive "super friends")

2- Do you think he can play the part?

I'm thinking they are going to go with the I hate the surface world Aquaman and make him moody.  It would be close to his character on Games of Throne

[Starman]

Shogunn2517, yes, I know you think he's more suitable to play Apache Chief and shouldn't be playing Aquaman because "his blood has a different level of Melanin than your or mine." Adult and racially sensitive commentary!

Because no one is saying "a Hawaiian can't play an Atlantean." What has been said is that a Half Hawaiian, half German/Irish/NATIVE AMERICAN actor wouldn't look right for the role he's been playing, a Caucasian, blonde-haired, blue-eyed Atlantean.

Atlantis doesn't exist.

You are saying there is no way an actor with dark hair and a light tan complexion, even with hair dye, can play someone of a fictional race.

Chris Hemsworth played an Asgardian (also a fictional race!) with long blonde hair via hair dye and extensions. The only difference between Hemsworth and Momoa is that Momoa's skin is light brown. So basically your problem is either that you inexplicably don't trust Warner Bros hair and makeup department or you think Momoa is too dark skinned for the role? He doesn't look that dark skinned in those pictures I posted...

Anyway, is anyone else tired of discussing this and reading all these repetitive "arguments" yet?

[HarryTrotter]

^Yes,last 2 pages are kinda rassistic for a few moment.So lets disscus something else,pls.

[Tomato]

Examples of Black and/or Asian actors playing roles that have traditionally been "white"/European to great effect:

Spoiler

With the exception of Michael Clark Duncan's Kingpin(which suffered by being the first case, and by being in a film that wasn't very good), the race of these actors has not had any negative impact on the parts they've played for the majority of audiences. Indeed, many of these changes were positive... Heimdall has received nothing but praise from most non-fans I know, and a majority of that was Idris Elba's performance. Similarly, Dean Cain was cast, in part, because his partly-asian background gave him a sense of otherworldliness the other actors auditioning at the time lacked.

And again, the only one of these with ANY basis in the comics is Sam Jackson's Nick Fury, and even THAT goes against decades of Nick Fury being a character that modern audiences had always seen as a white dude. Sure, WE(fans) understood that it had to do with the Ultimate comics and how Mark Miller had reinterpreted the character from his building blocks, but for most modern audiences? Nick Fury was that white dude who kept showing up in Marvel Cartoons, or in that stupid David Hasselhoff movie.

And again, these are just the stark changes. The fact that a British actor is playing Superman, that an aussie is playing Thor has already been brought up here, and I'm sure if you really want me to I can bring up dozens of similar choices. What matters is the actors ability (which only Benton has registered legitimate complaints about, and is a worthwhile discussion), NOT his skin tone.

But again, if you want to go that route, I point you to pretty much every single post I've already made.

Eh, it depends. I agree that bleach blonde, Draco Malfoy level is a bit on the crazy side, but I don't think a dirty, almost brown type of blonde would look too bad on him. And remember, the Blonde isn't supposed to look right on him, it's why he was cast out in the first place.

Spade, it really, REALLY isn't. The blonde thing is important to comics lore, but "blonde" is a much broader term than most people think. For example, this is still acceptably blonde, as is this and neither would look that out of place on Momoa. The whole "OMG He'd look silly as a bleach blonde" thing is silly.

Yes, the fact that Aquaman is blonde haired is part of his background. But it is ALSO a BIGGER part of his background that he is ATLANTEAN, which is in most typical depictions of the story, an island that was submerged centuries ago due to some catastrophe. Casting a Hawaiian, who are also islanders, is not THAT big a stretch here, and it helps to make the character stand out, ESPECIALLY if they do incorporate the blonde haired thing in there like I suggested. The fact that he's a blonde haired Atlantean is SUPPOSED to be off putting, that's why the Atlanteans cast him out in the first place.

Again, "Blonde" is not as narrow a definition as everyone here is trying to make it. Even Game of Thrones makes a distinction between the characters who are "silver haired" (IE: bleach blonde/Draco Malfoy-esque hair) and those that are "blonde" (and speaking as someone whose family is heavily german, most actual blondes fall into the latter category).

So I say again, END THIS DISCUSSION. You want to focus on his acting ability, fine, DO SO. But this focus on the fact that "OMG AQUAMAN IS BROWN" is insanity.

[HarryTrotter]

Tru his performance as Conan was...meh.But his GoT and Red Road roles were great.

[JeyNyce]

Take a hint and answer the questions 

Looks aside, I have a couple of questions to throw out here:

1- Which version of Aquaman are they going to put in the movie?  (missing hand, I hate the surface world, the passive "super friends")

2- Do you think he can play the part?

I'm thinking they are going to go with the I hate the surface world Aquaman and make him moody.  It would be close to his character on Games of Throne

Let keep it moving guys....

[HarryTrotter]

Two on the left I agree with.

[JeyNyce]

Is that The Flash from Injustice?

[HarryTrotter]

Is that The Flash from Injustice?

I think.

[Talavar]

Of all the problems Man of Steel had, I don't think Henry Cavill was one of them.  He's a good look for Superman, and a better actor than most people to have ever played the role.

[HarryTrotter]

To me he was just...meh.Not too good,not too bad.

[JeyNyce]

I think he was a very good Superman.  He comes second to Christopher Reeve.  The ladies like him (or his body) guys enjoyed him being Supes, He's a win-win in my book

[JeyNyce]

http://batman-news.com/2014/07/02/jason-momoa-hints-anti-hero-aquaman-batman-v-superman-dawn-justice-video/

[HarryTrotter]

^He wanted to play Lobo,that actually makes sense.

[Shogunn2517]

With the exception of Michael Clark Duncan's Kingpin(which suffered by being the first case, and by being in a film that wasn't very good), the race of these actors has not had any negative impact on the parts they've played for the majority of audiences. Indeed, many of these changes were positive... Heimdall has received nothing but praise from most non-fans I know, and a majority of that was Idris Elba's performance. Similarly, Dean Cain was cast, in part, because his partly-asian background gave him a sense of otherworldliness the other actors auditioning at the time lacked.

And again, the only one of these with ANY basis in the comics is Sam Jackson's Nick Fury, and even THAT goes against decades of Nick Fury being a character that modern audiences had always seen as a white dude. Sure, WE(fans) understood that it had to do with the Ultimate comics and how Mark Miller had reinterpreted the character from his building blocks, but for most modern audiences? Nick Fury was that white dude who kept showing up in Marvel Cartoons, or in that stupid David Hasselhoff movie.

And again, these are just the stark changes. The fact that a British actor is playing Superman, that an aussie is playing Thor has already been brought up here, and I'm sure if you really want me to I can bring up dozens of similar choices. What matters is the actors ability (which only Benton has registered legitimate complaints about, and is a worthwhile discussion), NOT his skin tone.

But again, if you want to go that route, I point you to pretty much every single post I've already made.

Eh, it depends. I agree that bleach blonde, Draco Malfoy level is a bit on the crazy side, but I don't think a dirty, almost brown type of blonde would look too bad on him. And remember, the Blonde isn't supposed to look right on him, it's why he was cast out in the first place.

Spade, it really, REALLY isn't. The blonde thing is important to comics lore, but "blonde" is a much broader term than most people think. For example, this is still acceptably blonde, as is this and neither would look that out of place on Momoa. The whole "OMG He'd look silly as a bleach blonde" thing is silly.

Yes, the fact that Aquaman is blonde haired is part of his background. But it is ALSO a BIGGER part of his background that he is ATLANTEAN, which is in most typical depictions of the story, an island that was submerged centuries ago due to some catastrophe. Casting a Hawaiian, who are also islanders, is not THAT big a stretch here, and it helps to make the character stand out, ESPECIALLY if they do incorporate the blonde haired thing in there like I suggested. The fact that he's a blonde haired Atlantean is SUPPOSED to be off putting, that's why the Atlanteans cast him out in the first place.

Again, "Blonde" is not as narrow a definition as everyone here is trying to make it. Even Game of Thrones makes a distinction between the characters who are "silver haired" (IE: bleach blonde/Draco Malfoy-esque hair) and those that are "blonde" (and speaking as someone whose family is heavily german, most actual blondes fall into the latter category).

So I say again, END THIS DISCUSSION. You want to focus on his acting ability, fine, DO SO. But this focus on the fact that "OMG AQUAMAN IS BROWN" is insanity.

I can point you to the "Thor Movie" thread two years ago that actually discussed Hogun, Kingpin and Heimdall casting decisions.  Like I said, I can go to about every thread where there's a casting decision made and there's discussion about whether the actor looks like the character he's playing.  That is not an insane discussion.  If you think this discussion is MORE insane than Thomas Jane's dyed hair or Chris Hemsworth being too small or Hugh Jackman being too tall, JUST because there's a racial component to this discussion, then I'm sorry.  There is NOTHING racist about this discussion.  No one is saying Jason Momoa is an inferior actor to anyone with blonde hair and blue eyes because of his ethnicity.  That would be insane and stupid and nobody is saying that or even suggesting that.  It is not unreasonable or racist to discuss whether or not an actor looks like a character he's playing.

But you are more than welcome to not discuss it anymore at all.

[steamteck]

Late to the party because I was on vacation. I think Mamoa was an outstanding Conan and I'd like to see that fire in his Aquaman. he could give us a TAS type hardcase Aquaman which I'd like. If you guys think TAS Aquaman is like Namor, then he sure out Namor's namor IMO.

Would it be nice if he looked more like the character? Sure it would. That would be the ideal. But I'm willing to see what happens.

Then again, for me only the Avengers outdoes MOS so I've got the faith.

[BentonGrey]

So I say again, END THIS DISCUSSION. You want to focus on his acting ability, fine, DO SO. But this focus on the fact that "OMG AQUAMAN IS BROWN" is insanity.

Yes, because that's what I've been saying.  Thank you, 'Mato, for so succinctly and perfectly summing up my multi-faceted posts.

Alright, I'm starting to feel a bit like folks are not actually reading what I'm posting.  It's like people are talking at right angles to the conversation I'm trying to have.  I'll respond to Starman's points and then make some general comments.  On the wider topic, I don't understand how saying "he doesn't look like the character, which is not great when adapting a visual medium" is so controversial a thought.  I don't really see how the conversation on that topic has stretched so long, but when folks start misrepresenting my thoughts, I prefer to clarify.

I don't think any filmmaker is going to have Superman fighting a guy riding grimly towards him on a giant purple sea-horse. That is something which looks great on a comic book page, not so much on a movie screen.

  Starman, you're a creative guy, use a little imagination!  I wasn't suggesting that Snyder reproduce that image in this movie or even that Aquaman should be riding a giant seahorse on the big screen, I was pointing out that fantastic undersea creatures, a-la the visually spectacular fauna of Avatar, could make for a very epic surrounding in which to tell an Aquaman story.  There's plenty of room for the fantastic and the unusual in our entertainment, and folks who reject such ideas out of hand because they won't work haven't been paying attention for the last decade of cinema.  Again, this isn't specific to THIS movie; I was just making a general point.

Again, the Halle Berry version of Catwoman didn't do the character any favours because it was a bad film. Period. It had NOTHING to do with Halle Berry not physically resembling the character. Just like Val Kilmer's hair colour had nothing to do with his role as Batman.

Right, because that's what I said.  The movie was terrible because Hallie Berry doesn't look like Catwoman.   Come on Starman.  I was making two separate points.  Allow me to elucidate, since I was apparently being terribly unclear.  1) Casting an actor that doesn't look like the character is less than ideal, but it's really sad when they can't actually act.  There's no upside.  You can't say, well, at least they look the part or, well, it's okay because they're gonna' nail the role.  2) It is not an unequivocal good to have a character appear on the big screen.  You're right, Catwoman was a terrible movie, and that is exactly my point.  I imagine it will be a very long time before we'll see a solo Catwoman movie again. 

Aquaman isn't Superman or Batman, and the JLA has yet to prove its marketability the way the Avengers have.  WB has got one shot at this, (which is surprising and would be exciting if I hadn't seen their previous films) but they may not have more than one.  If they blow it, we aren't likely to see this idea revisited too soon.  Also, if we get Namor-lite Aquaman and the movie makes money, then that is ALL we'll see.  Look at the Bay-formers movies.  There isn't any chance we'll see the Cybertronians actually treated with some respect and love anytime soon because what Bay has done made more than the GDP of a few small countries.  Thus, that is all that will be allowed to grace the big screen for the foreseeable future.

Hey, I'm a big fan of the Morrisson JLA run, man, you know that. In fact, pretty much the only thing that bothers me about those stories is the way DC kept screwing with what he wanted to do.  He wanted to put the band back together, but they kept giving him editorial fiats, Aquaman has to have the hook, Superman has to be electric, no Hawkman, etc.  If I had a zillion dollars, I'd hire an art team to go back and redo those books without the 90s gimmicks.

What?  Have you ever read those books?  They've got fantastic stories, but they are often covered in 90s stink in the art department.  There are mullets and gimmicks galore.   There are great bits, of course, but there are also less than stellar sections, and every scene with electric Superman just makes me shake my head.  It would be awesome to see those books done by the likes of Prado and Reis.

I don't think "a Hawaiian can't play an Atlantean!" is an adult argument, and doesn't compare to a Caucasian playing a Chinese role.

This is the difference between Chris Hemsworth playing Thor and Jason Momoa playing Aquaman: Hemsworth is a big, well-built, good-looking dude who has both worn a wig and dyed his hair for the role of Thor. He has white skin. Jason Momoa is a big, well-built, good-looking dude who has both worn a wig and dyed his hair for roles in the past and could conceivably do it again for the role of Aquaman. His skin is light brown.

Nice job with the strawman.  So, skin tone is not part of physical appearance?  How silly of me.  Anyway, the guy just doesn't look like the character he's supposed to play.  Your dismissive disregard does not diminish the point.  Momoa doesn't look like the character, and I don't think anyone has actually argued that he does.  Can he still play the role?  Assuming he's a decent actor, (an assumption I've seen no evidence to support) obviously that's possible, but that doesn't mean that he magically fits Aquaman.  Can they make him look like the character?  I don't know, maybe, and if they do, great.  It just doesn't seem likely to me.  If I'm wrong, fantastic.  I'll be very happy to be wrong.  That possibility does not make the objections raised childish, irrational, nor racist, as the fact remains that, Momoa does not currently look the part.


'Mato, yeah, there have been some good portrayals by actors who didn't resemble the characters they played, and that's certainly a fair point.  It is absolutely possible to end up with a great, memorable, and even mostly faithful portrayal by an actor who doesn't look the part.  Yet, their success does not negate the objection in general.  When you're adapting from a visual medium, appearance is important.  It's obviously not the most important aspect of an adaptation, (and I don't think anyone has argued it is) but it isn't completely irrelevant. 

Idris Elba and Sam Jackson are tremendous actors, and I would expect them to excel in any role they are given.  Elba was great as Heimdall, and he fits in with the movie, but he's still a bit jarring to Thor fans at times because he doesn't look the part.  I love Jackson as Fury, and nobody can deny that he really is an excellent part of the Marvel movies (no surprise there), but even though I was pleased at his inclusion when the announcement was made because of the man's talent, I still wished that we'd get to see a classic version of the character.  That's still true, just because I'm a purist. 

A disconnect between the source and the adaptation (whatever shape it may take) is an obstacle to a successful (not necessarily financially) adaptation.  Such things can be overcome, and the Marvel movies are great examples of that, but they still exist.  Now, to be perfectly clear, I'm not complaining about the finished product, and I unreservedly love both the Thor flims and the Avengers.  For the most part, adaptations that don't match their sources are a mark against a project to me, but that's one facet out of many.  I think of these types of things in more or less the same terms most of us probably think of movies in general, positives and negatives of greater and lesser value.

Alright, I've said my piece.  Now, if no-one strawmans my thoughts or acts as if I'm spouting nonsensical madness, I'm happy to let the matter drop.


Momoa as Lobo...now THAT would be good casting. 

Steamteck, ahh, that's more or less exactly what I think most Aquaman fans are a bit hesitant about.  I'm sure it would be fun to watch, but it wouldn't be the character we love.  I will say this, though, if Aquaman gets to embarrass Superman and/or Batman at least once,  that would go a long way to assuaging my fears.

[Starman]

Bentongrey, your entire post is "this is what I actually meant by that last post!" and its just one big, difficult to read exercise in point-picking.

Starman, you're a creative guy, use a little imagination!  I wasn't suggesting that Snyder reproduce that image in this movie or even that Aquaman should be riding a giant seahorse on the big screen, I was pointing out that fantastic undersea creatures, a-la the visually spectacular fauna of Avatar, could make for a very epic surrounding in which to tell an Aquaman story.  There's plenty of room for the fantastic and the unusual in our entertainment, and folks who reject such ideas out of hand because they won't work haven't been paying attention for the last decade of cinema.  Again, this isn't specific to THIS movie; I was just making a general point.

You posted a picture of Aquaman, with a determined expression, riding towards Superman, also with a furrowed brow, on a giant purple seahorse. Maybe you should have selected a different picture to get your point across...

What?  Have you ever read those books?  They've got fantastic stories, but they are often covered in 90s stink in the art department.  There are mullets and gimmicks galore.   There are great bits, of course, but there are also less than stellar sections, and every scene with electric Superman just makes me shake my head.  It would be awesome to see those books done by the likes of Prado and Reis.

You either like 90s comics and the context of the art and writing or you don't. Comic art changes from decade to decade. As a comic fan and an artist, hearing someone who professes to love comic books suggest that a classic run of comics should be redrawn because, hey, it's not the 90s anymore! is ... baffling.

So, skin tone is not part of physical appearance?  How silly of me.  Anyway, the guy just doesn't look like the character he's supposed to play.  Your dismissive disregard does not diminish the point.

1) All of the Avengers actors needed help to look like the characters they were supposed to play. Scarlett Johansson isn't a redhead, Chris Hemsworth didn't have long blonde hair and wasn't hugely muscular, etc, etc

2) You are seriously going to keep bringing up the actor's skin tone? To quote Tomato:

But this focus on the fact that "OMG AQUAMAN IS BROWN" is insanity.

Can they make him look like the character?  I don't know, maybe, and if they do, great.  It just doesn't seem likely to me.  If I'm wrong, fantastic.  I'll be very happy to be wrong.  That possibility does not make the objections raised childish, irrational, nor racist, as the fact remains that, Momoa does not currently look the part.

No, that's not childish or irrational at all...

[Tomato]

ENOUGH

Seriously, this has gotten insane. Several members have gone out of their way to move the discussion past this topic, and it keeps getting dragged back into it. And no, I'm not just talking about Shogun and Benton, because this has been just as much my and Starman's mess, if not more so. The fighting ends, RIGHT THE HELL NOW, or I am going to appeal to the forum moderators and have this thread locked. No more trying to get in the last word, no more explaining your position, IT'S OVER.

Three pages of this nonsense. Jesus.

[Shogunn2517]

FEEL FREE TO LEAVE THE THREAD....

As if there's some wrong with that.  No one's asking you to moderate Benton, Starman, Talavar and Me.

And please, Shogunn.  Two n's.

Momoa as Lobo...now THAT would be good casting. 

Steamteck, ahh, that's more or less exactly what I think most Aquaman fans are a bit hesitant about.  I'm sure it would be fun to watch, but it wouldn't be the character we love.  I will say this, though, if Aquaman gets to embarrass Superman and/or Batman at least once,  that would go a long way to assuaging my fears.

Honestly, and technically, Aquaman hasn't been cast so I suppose there is still the outside chance.  But at this point of the thread, I'm slightly confused.  Are we talking about The Superman/Batman movie or Justice League.  Because if we are talking about JL, why would they be talking about casting Lobo with this level of an actor?  I doubt he's the main villain and I doubt they'd be hiring a Jason Momoa this far out to play a secondary role.

[JeyNyce]

Guys seriously, lets move on and talk about THE MOVIE and not just about Aquaman's race/ looks.  I even tried to hint at it to move on, but you guys had to bring it back up.  I don't want to lock the thread and/ or delete anyone's post, but it the whole thing about Aquaman comes up again, I will be force to.  Let talk about something else, Costumes, The Batcave, The Fortress of Solitude, is there going to be a watch tower, anything else, please!! 

[BWPS]

So... uh...

How much is Ben Affleck going to suck as Batman?

[HarryTrotter]

Betfleck IS.GONA.SUCK.

[trebean]

I digress, I liked him in Argo and The Town, and while yeah DareDevil did suck, it was because of the poor directing, pacing, and script. I am actually quite optimistic on him being on set because that means they'll actually have a capable director on set (Not that I hate Snyder, but he glorifies almost every event needlessly making it "epic", that was one of my main problems with MOS, the gratious amount of destruction shots) plus his connections gave us a rewrite on whatever dark, cynical, carp Goyer's ego came up with

[BentonGrey]

I'm very, very rarely disappointed with this community, but this conversation has left me so. 

By all means, please move the conversation on.

[Midnite]

Chris Terrio to Pen Justice League

[JeyNyce]

You mean that they still don't have a story yet?  What are they waiting for?  I figure after they finish writing BvS that they would have an idea of what they want in the JL movie.