Debate: Comic Book Movies and Ultimate Marvel

[lugaru]

So one of the things going on in the comic book industry these days is film speculation... lots of people are forming small studios and creating new intellectual properties with hopes of tapping into the huge Hollywood demand for comic book liscenced movies. Of course in some cases it is pretty much against the authors wishes (Watchmen) but a lot of people are literally making comics just so they can break into movies.

Here is what I just realized though... the new slew of Marvel Movies has been very heavily influenced by the Ultimate Line and the ultimate line versions of characters have pretty much been the template for the Marvel Movies. Good examples are the young and hip fantastic four, the fun and womanizing Tony Stark who is an alcoholic but has not yet admited it and of course Sammuel Jackson as Nick Fury.

So the first question is easy... is it smart to make comics hoping that your 2000 print run will become a movie? I hear that everyone gets an option but nobody really gets a deal.

Second: Is the Marvel Ultimate Line an attempt at bridging the gap or do you think if we started every comic book from scratch they would be all Ultimate and written like movies?

[steamteck]

I don't know the answers but I do know the ultimate comics completely don't work for me but in "adapting" the concepts for mainstream audiences the movies end up very good. I even liked the animated Ultimate Avengers and I really really hated the Ultimates.

[zuludelta]

So the first question is easy... is it smart to make comics hoping that your 2000 print run will become a movie? I hear that everyone gets an option but nobody really gets a deal.

I don't know what the success rate is for non-Marvel/DC comic book pitches being turned into profitable films (I can count the successful ones on the fingers of one hand), but it is a much much cheaper alternative to filming or animating a short feature as a way to get a film studio or investor interested in backing a film. I know a couple of local Vancouver guys who've been shopping their comics as a way to get a movie/TV deal, but judging from their experiences, it doesn't seem to be a more successful approach compared to the traditional means of getting Hollywood's attention. 

From what I've seen, it's the properties that are created for comics first that have the most success crossing over into film, compared to the ones that are simply using the comics medium as a transitional forum for the eventual sales pitch to prospective producers.

A perfect example of the former failing to gain any traction with readers or prospective viewers would be the much ballyhooed Virgin Comics line created in 2006 by multi-billionaire Richard Branson and self-help guru Deepak Chopra. Virgin Comics was less of a comic book publishing company than it was a film development studio, with established comic book writers (i.e., Garth Ennis, Andy Diggle, Zeb Wells) being paired with successful film directors (i.e., John Woo, Guy Ritchie, Shekhar Kapur) creating what were basically very detailed storyboards (disguised as graphic novels and mini-series) for prospective movie projects. Virgin Comics virtually folded shop late last year, so that's probably all you need to know about how successful that approach is (and this was a venture that had the backing of one of the world's richest men, with professional talent working under him).

Second: Is the Marvel Ultimate Line an attempt at bridging the gap or do you think if we started every comic book from scratch they would be all Ultimate and written like movies?

If I remember my Marvel history correctly, the Ultimate line was intended by then-president Bill Jemas as an entry point for new readers roped in by the first Spider-Man and X-Men films. It wasn't supposed to reflect the movie continuity, but rather, provide a more accessible (in other words, less continuity-heavy and less adherent to superhero convention) avenue for readers unfamiliar with the workings of the Marvel Universe. It was successful in this regard for a time, but there's a point where a venture like that starts giving back diminishing returns, and I think we're well past that now.

As to your second point... yes, I think comics are being written more like movies (or TV) these days but I think that's just the nature of the writing industry. There are fewer professional "comics-only" writers of note these days (in fact, I doubt if any are left), so it stands to reason that the writing (and editing) featured in today's comics are informed stylistically, by film, TV, and animation writing. But it's a little unfair of me to put the onus solely on the writing... I think the "gentrification" of contemporary comics art style has led to comics panels that are, for all intents and purposes, no different from keyframes or storyboards. You rarely see artists these days incorporate panel borders, panel shapes, and even the lettering as a means of telling a story. Back in the day, guys like Will Eisner, Jack Kirby, Alex Niño, Jim Steranko and lots of others would pack the page (and not just the panels) full of information, doing things you could only see in comics and would be hard-pressed to recreate in any other medium.

[detourne_me]

Back in the day, guys like Will Eisner, Jack Kirby, Alex Niño, Jim Steranko and lots of others would pack the page (and not just the panels) full of information, doing things you could only see in comics and would be hard-pressed to recreate in any other medium.

that's because back in the day no other medium could recreate such images, there were no computer graphics, animatronics were crude, and budgets just weren't high enough for those sorts of special effects.

now, i believe Quitely Hitch and Cassady are the only artists capable of keeping with modern trends and packing so much information into a page that it would be hard to replicate on screen.
Sienczewhatshisname, Sam Keith, Dave McKean and Ashley Wood are some other artists that can use the medium to display information that would be difficult to translate into screen,  even in animation it would be hard to get across the visceral and detailed images (look at how MTV's The Maxx was pretty much a motion comic)


In regards to movies made from comics... well look at Kick-arse, i think it was optioned at the same time the first issue came out, and into production by the time the 3rd issue was out.
I'm not sure,  but was it always meant to be a movie?

[zuludelta]

In regards to movies made from comics... well look at Kick-arse, i think it was optioned at the same time the first issue came out, and into production by the time the 3rd issue was out.
I'm not sure,  but was it always meant to be a movie?

I don't know if it was always "meant" to be a movie, but I remember reading about Millar shopping it around to film studios even before the first issue came out.

now, i believe Quitely Hitch and Cassady are the only artists capable of keeping with modern trends and packing so much information into a page that it would be hard to replicate on screen.
Sienczewhatshisname, Sam Keith, Dave McKean and Ashley Wood are some other artists that can use the medium to display information that would be difficult to translate into screen,  even in animation it would be hard to get across the visceral and detailed images (look at how MTV's The Maxx was pretty much a motion comic)

Ashley Wood's a great example of that subset of comic book creators who are still producing experiences unique to comics. But it really requires a writer and an artist working closely together (or ideally, a writer-artist) to create that effect where you get sequential storytelling that is unique to the comics medium... Joe Casey tried doing that a few years ago with The Intimates but he never really clicked with his artist (this Italian guy, can't remember his name... ). I think Matt Fraction and Gabriel Ba were able to create a uniquely comics mode of storytelling in Casanova, as did Warren Ellis and Stuart Immonen in Nextwave, and there were times when Grant Morrison and JG Jones did so as well in Final Crisis (at least when Jones wasn't being re-inked or re-pencilled over by other artists).

[Previsionary]

Here is what I just realized though... the new slew of Marvel Movies has been very heavily influenced by the Ultimate Line and the ultimate line versions of characters have pretty much been the template for the Marvel Movies. Good examples are the young and hip fantastic four, the fun and womanizing Tony Stark who is an alcoholic but has not yet admited it and of course Sammuel Jackson as Nick Fury.

I just want to address that your example of Ironman isn't exactly a good one. Tony Stark in that movie was related more to classic Tony updated to modern times than he was to Ultimate Tony (Antonio). In fact, nothing in the movie actually spoke to the ultimate verse other than Samuel L. who makes a perfect Nick Fury because...a version of Nick Fury is based on him. Ha.

Even the fan4 suggestion isn't a solid argument as it also was based on the classic stories with liberties being taken. The Ultimate team is much more different and didn't do the space adventure thing. Reed was seen as the leader in those movies while in the actual ultimate universe, Susan, Shield/Gov't, or her father would be seen as the leader(s) in early UFF history. Me thinks it's another case of updating...though not as successful.

Second: Is the Marvel Ultimate Line an attempt at bridging the gap or do you think if we started every comic book from scratch they would be all Ultimate and written like movies?

As Zulu pointed out, the Ultimate line was made to bring in new readers that didn't want to deal with continuity or finding "jumping on" points for comics that involved the big named heroes. It was supposed to be a more grounded reality that didn't rely on magic and time travel like the main universe does, but that has long passed and the line is getting relaunched. Anyways, the original purpose of the line had nothing to do with movies and most of Marvel's movies base their storylines on the classic stories and not the updated versions. Not even the costumes sync up. I guess the only thing you can pin on the ultimate verse is their younger personalities and their updated lingo, but that too was done awhile back in the many spin-off universes comics have. Oh, wait, many of the ultimate writers ended up doing mainstream and eventually helped to shape some of the marvel movies...so I guess there's that. *shrugs*

[crimsonquill]

I can't think of any better way of doing the upcoming "Captain America: The First Avenger" movie then using his origin from The Ultimates comic and probably some elements from the Ultimate Avengers cartoon (his interaction with Fury and waking up at SHIELD HQ). Since Samuel L. Jackson is slated to appear in the film, which mostly takes place in Steve Rogers World War II years, then I'd expect that Sgt. Fury and his Howling Commandos will get an appearance. After all they need to play up the relationship between Fury and Steve that would lead him to joining the Avengers when he is asked not long after being thawed out. I'm unsure if they would use the super soldier element from Ultimate Origins to have Fury be a previous experiment but maybe only gaining a mild boost in strength and endurance which slows his aging down. After we got a taste of what the super soldier formula could do in the Incredible Hulk movie I doubt they would have Fury pulling off the same feats before Steve gets his moment to shine in the final battle scene.

From clips of X-Men Origins: Wolverine we see Logan as a soldier in various battles thru history.. but I wish Fox and Paramount might strike a deal so we can get just one clip of Captain America and Logan meeting briefly before going into combat in a World War II scene. Of course that's just because I know that while Paramount/Marvel Studios is trying to unite all of the Marvel movies under one banner... Fantastic Four and X-Men along with Spider-Man will never be unless Fox/Sony gives up the exclusive rights for those characters. So there will never be an Iceman/Human Torch team up or Spider-Man running into Deadpool or Wolverine.

- CQ