Migration?

[captainspud]

We've had three "I'm leaving" threads in a month, and I know that at least three or four old-timers are playing other games now. It seems like a decent chunk of the community is getting a bit worn out on CoH.

Rather than letting the community slowly wither, might we instead start shopping around for a new game? Moving games is rough, but I think the blow would be lessened significantly if we just picked up the community en masse and moved as one. That's the biggest thing I'm missing in WoW-- you guys. It's a good game, and I'm in a decent guild, but I miss having you guys to harass.

So, a couple things to consider.

1) Is this even necessary? How many of the community would be interested in a mass migration, assuming we found a game we could all get into? How many people would be willing to put up with a game that's not their #1 choice just to stay with the community? How many people really would prefer to stay in CoH, and don't want a migration to gut their pool of available teamups?

2) Where would we go? A big part of why CoH was a good choice for us is its hero thematics and easily customizeable personas. Most MMOs are gear-based and class-based, and they offer less room for individuality. This is going to be a big turn-off for lots of our community members, so it's something to keep in mind.

I know Zappy and TeeWee have been playing Tabula Rasa. Can we get a quick review from you kids? What the game's about, how it compares to CoH, and whether you'd recommend it for migration?

MUO is another option, but it's a fairly long way off, so it's not something we can immediately plan on. CoH2 hasn't even been announced, but surely it's on the drawing board somewhere. And of course, there are dozens of other games.

So, yeah. This is mostly a "throwing it out there" idea. I know a  lot of our players are still very much enjoying CoH, and I know that the superhero thematics are a big thing to lose when moving to another game. But personally, I'd like to think that the most important ingredient in my positive experiences with CoH were the interactions with you guys, not the game we were playing. Let's be honest, a lot of things in CoH are really tedious and tiresome, but with a solid team of friends you barely notice. CoH was basically just window dressing on a community chat room. :)

So, yeah. That's my piece. If you've played another MMO you think would be a good fit, or even one that you don't think we'd like, let us know. It would be a fairly involved process to organize a mass migration, and I don't want to get into it before we've absolutely done our homework. Step 1 is to survey the field.

[captainspud]

WoW

I've been playing WoW for about six weeks, and while it's an awesome game, I can see a few problems arising. First of all, the lack of a SK system makes community teaming a bit harder. You need to try to stay in the same level range as your playing buddies or else you'll end up with a member who's either bored or useless, depending which way the disparity goes. And when a new player joins the guild, they won't have anybody to play with. That said, the entire game is largely soloable (in fact, it's INTENDED to be soloed), so not having a team isn't a huge deal. The lack of teaming kinda bugged me for the first week, but I barely notice it anymore.

The second thing is that it's a gear-based game. Now, this doesn't mean that the entire game is a mad dash to max out your gear. By and large, this is only an issue in the end-game. Your characters will be levelling so fast that even if you spend a ton of cash on the best gear, it'll be obsolete within a week. During the levelling process, you can just equip whatever you find, and it's good enough. It's only when you hit the last 5 to 10 levels and start raiding that your gear really becomes an issue.

That said, there's another aspect to a gear game that needs to be kept in mind, and this applies to almost any MMO-- your gear determines how you look. My main dude has a set of decent-looking gear, but it's largely because I've refused to equip better gear that I didn't like the look of. At this point, my level 48 guy is wearing a few items with a level requirement in the low 30s, simply because the upgrades I found didn't match my outfit. And meanwhile, one of my other characters has been wearing the absolute best stuff she's found, but her outfit makes my eyes bleed as a result. Granted, these are the two extremes, and most people will have "decent-looking, decent-statted" gear, but it's something that a lot of CoH-spoiled people will have a problem with.

Overall, I think that WoW would be a fun experience for a lot of our CoH players, but I can't outright recommend it for the two reasons I mentioned above. Overall, it's one of the most polished games I've ever played-- the art design, the class balance, and the depth of the storyline are extremely impressive. Blizzard has, quite simply, made one hell of a game. But unfortunately, I imagine it's not the kind of game a lot of our players would prefer to play, so we'll probably want to keep shopping.

You can get a 10-day code on the WoW.com site if you'd like to give it a test drive; perhaps some other people would like to give it a shot to see if it's to their liking. I dunno.

[Valandar]

I've played a few of Acclaim's free MMO's, like Flyff and 9 Dragons... They were fun, but were almost entirely grind based...

[Viking]

If CoH dies out, then I go back to non-MMORPGs full time.

[Stopman]

I thought you left for good.   :doh:

Now you want everyone else to leave????

[BlueBard]

I might be interested in trying out Tabula Rasa, or possibly even LotRO.  No interest whatsoever in WoW.  I'd probably wind up playing CoH until MUO and jump ship then.  Or my money runs out, whichever comes first.  Issue 11 has sparked my interest, so I'll stick around at least that long.

I'm also playing a 'lite' web-based MMO called Fallen Sword; it's basically free to play but upgrades cost points that you either buy or earn and it also is gear-based.  Play time is limited by a Stamina score that is exhausted through movement and combat (though Stamina is upgradeable with points).  The game is heavily PvP, but the bounty system insures that it doesn't get too far out of hand.  Spud would probably get bored with FS after the first 10 minutes (if that long).  The only good thing I have to say for it, aside from the free to play aspect, is that guilds are very central to the game.  I'm currently in a really good guild that is very helpful to its' members.  I'm not really recommending it as something we all migrate to, but anyone looking for a cheap-to-play low-bandwidth time-killer is welcome to join me.

[captainspud]

I thought you left for good.   :doh:

Now you want everyone else to leave????

I'm perfectly happy playing WoW. If people don't want to move, I've got something to entertain me for a few months.

As I said, any migration effort would be mostly motivated in an attempt to keep the PEOPLE together, regardless of what GAME is involved. In the last months I was playing, I noticed a hell of a lot of people getting tired of CoH, but who were sticking around for the camaraderie. The idea here is that if the "I like the people, getting kinda worn out on the game" idea is more widespread than the dozen or so people I witnessed it on, it might be a good idea to find something new and exciting to play so we avoid having people wander away completely.

Better to keep the group together in a new place, than to have nine people left and everyone else playing 30 different games.

IMHO.

[BlueBard]

Oh, I like the idea of keeping the band together, if we can find something that interests the majority.  I'm just not quite ready to jump off the CoH bandwagon, having nothing really to jump to.

[El Condor]

Thanks for the provocative idea, Spud, but I still feel like I'm enjoying the game and have much to learn and do.  Additionally, I've hardly been able to play at all lately due to a number of circumstances, so I'm eager to just get back on and play the stinkin' game sometime in the (hopefully) not too distant future!  :) 

It would make me sad to see bunch of FR peeps go, but I'd totally understand if many of you are all played out.  I'll be staying for a while....

EC

[B A D]

I aint going noplace until the Serenity MMO fires up. Then I get to be a snarky semi well built pilot who may or may not be dead.

[captainspud]

I aint going noplace until the Serenity MMO fires up. Then I get to be a snarky semi well built pilot who may or may not be dead.

I'm not really sold on that game. Firefly was a great show, but it was more to do with fantastic character-writing than any particularly original elements in the setting. A single-player game where you play as the crew would be great, but an MMO seems like a pretty shaky premise. The show's universe just wasn't that interesting.

Again, IMHO.

[GhostMachine]

Rumor is there might be another Star Wars MMO, this one set in the KOTOR era, in the works. This one by the team behind Bioshock, if I remember right. If does happen, I may go play that at some point.

WoW was a nightmare for me. It was good, until I got to the higher levels. The main reason I quit is because by the time I got to around lvl 50 or so (and this was before Burning Crusade, so max lvl was 60 at this time) the game started to become less fun and more of a chore, and I am still surprised I stuck it out long enough to get my main character to 60. I couldn't get things done that I needed to do to advance, such as finish the Onyxia Lair key quests, because there were rarely any groups available and the people in my guild were selfish as sin (I helped people a lot, but whenever I needed help outside of a raid it was rare that anyone would be willing to do so - and we weren't a pure raiding guild) and the leader was a grade-a jerk (I'd use a stronger word than `jerk', but this is a family-friendly board) who would pass up on gear needed for raiding if other people also needed it but wouldn't hesitate to spend dkp on anything else even if someone else needed it more. (Him using the guild dkp chart to see how much he needed to use to take the rare elite tiger mount that dropped in ZG when he already had all the buyable epic mounts in the game and knew that roughly 25% of the people at the raid couldn't even afford to buy a single one was the last straw, since I had already found out that he only joined a Strath group I was in because he was hoping for the Baron's mount to drop. And about 7 or 8 people quit the guild during the week after the tiger mount incident. I didn't quit the guild but started looking for a new guild and quit WoW when I couldn't get into a decent one as the others were all either pure raiders or invitation only)

Funny thing is, about three weeks to a month after I quit playing, the guild changed from a supposedly family guild that did casual raiding (the guild usually held MC raids on Monday, ZG or a second MC on Fridays, and something else on the weekends (usually Onyxia) to a hardcore raiding guild and kicked out a lot of members and merged with another guild (taking in the people willing to do hardcore raiding from that guild, but leaving those kicked out on their own).

I've said in the past that I will probably never go back to WoW, despite missing a few things from it, and I mean it. If I could find a decent guild on another server and didn't have to pay for the transfer, I'd at least consider it, but would probably still not go back.

Incidentally, I got the leaf for the Hunter epic roughly two weeks before I quit.

(I was Alliance, on the Whisperwind server, by the way)

Any MMO run by Sony should be avoided like the plague. I had several bad experiences way back when I played Everquest and after I quit it (I left EQ for CoH), and vowed that I'll never play a MMO connected to Sony again.

[Kommando]

Rumor is there might be another Star Wars MMO, this one set in the KOTOR era, in the works.

Rumor is an MMO by Bioware, which has NEVER been more than a rumor for the last couple of years.  If there is some truth to it, being a KOTOR MMO, then yeah I would likely go do that immediately, since Bioware at least has experience with the property.  Though if they are doing it, it will likely take a long time, as they like to do things right, which is why KOTOR II was done by Obsidian, who had no problems putting out an unfinished game under a deadline.

I played Tabula Rasa beta for a while.  Its a beautiful game, with a nice story to it.  If they add more RP elements to it, I will be happy.  Combat is kind of like an FPS, but with enough RPG elements that its not a pwn-fest for the 13 year old twitch-kiddies.  Still, its got some bugs that make it hard to continue playing until they fix it.  Main one is a memory leak, compounded with lag.  One instance had my screen frozen for almost 60 seconds at a time, leaving me dead when it cleared up.  And my system should be able to handle it easily.  If they plug up the memory leaks and add more servers, then it will be a lot more playable.

However, I think Tabula Rasa just made me want the Stargate MMO more.  Stargate may be more amenable to actual roleplay (I know the ADD twitch-kiddies mock roleplayers from their parents' basements, and I could care less), which would be a nice change of pace.  Plus I know enough people, including Ms Kommando and her brother, who would likely jump in when it starts, so it would be nice to have an MMO in the family.

Until then, we continue to play Second Life.  I'd say more about it, but I'm sure a certain buzzkill is waiting to drop his pants and dump on any comments so I'll keep it simple:  User created content.  Ability to generate a real income.  Play by your own rules.

COH is still new enough for me that I am still enjoying the content.  Plus, like NWN, I get to experiment with different builds and occassionally I get to adventure with people I know, which is fun.

WOW?  Not really interested.  There was enough WOW players in the Tabula Rasa beta that I realized I prefer the company of adults.  In fact, that is a major attraction to Second Life for me.  No children. 

[captainspud]

Second Life isn't even a game. It's a chat room with graphics.

Seriously.

[Valandar]

Second Life isn't even a game. It's a chat room with graphics.

Seriously.

QFT.


Some of you know I work as a broker at a company called DAZ Productions, making content for Poser. Well, DAZ has decided to try getting into 2nd Life, since people are making $$$ making 2nd Life content. I tried their "Modelling" system, and promptly opted out.

[Ephemeris]

So, a couple things to consider.

1) Is this even necessary? How many of the community would be interested in a mass migration, assuming we found a game we could all get into? How many people would be willing to put up with a game that's not their #1 choice just to stay with the community? How many people really would prefer to stay in CoH, and don't want a migration to gut their pool of available teamups?

In order....No.  I can't speak for the community, but I believe we already HAVE a game we're all into.  Rhetorical question...If this was truly about community, and CoH was no longer your first choice, would you stay for the community?  I'd prefer to stay and not have the pool of teamates gutted, but that would be selfish on my part....so let's just say I'll be staying.

2) Where would we go? A big part of why CoH was a good choice for us is its hero thematics and easily customizeable personas. Most MMOs are gear-based and class-based, and they offer less room for individuality. This is going to be a big turn-off for lots of our community members, so it's something to keep in mind.

Better question, why would we go?  I wouldn't switch games just for the sake of switching games.  CoH not having lewt was a huge part of it's original draw.  Even now, lewt is not necessary in CoH, unlike most other MMO's.  Barring some awe inspiring game in the future, there is nothing I'd rather be playing than CoH until MUO or CoH2 comes out.

I've heard horror stories from friends that play WoW.  I tried Tabula Rasa's beta and hated it.  All TR's beta did is made me appreciate CoH.

Who really cares if there were three 'I'm leaving' threads in the last month?  Three threads does not signify a migration.  Over the 3+ years I've been playing, there's been a bunch of 'I'm leaving' threads, including my own.  They're a dime a dozen.  Some seem genuine "I can't afford to continue to play..." and some seem like grandstanding (like mine was) "I'm bored with the content, but if they appease me with X, Y, Z, I'll return....."  Either way, the majority of those that leave will return at some point.

My 2 cents.

[Kommando]

...we continue to play Second Life.  I'd say more about it, but I'm sure a certain buzzkill is waiting to drop his pants and dump on any comments...

Second Life isn't even a game. It's a chat room with graphics.

Seriously.

Almost prophetic

[captainspud]

I can't speak for the community, but I believe we already HAVE a game we're all into.  Rhetorical question...If this was truly about community, and CoH was no longer your first choice, would you stay for the community?  I'd prefer to stay and not have the pool of teamates gutted, but that would be selfish on my part....so let's just say I'll be staying.

Which is fine. The reason I brought this up is because I heard a lot of grumbling toward the end of my playtime, with people not enjoying the available content anymore. But most people stick around because they don't really see an alternative, since CoH is *so* unique. And really, it is. Until MUO comes out, there's nothing that replicates the CoH experience. But I know that toward the end, I wanted to leave, and didn't because I wanted someone else to go first. I wanted someone else to say, "I'm going to go play X", and I could respond, "I think I'll go too." I didn't want to be the only one wandering away. I eventually got the nerve to do it, but I spent almost six months looking for someone else to make the first move.

I know there are a lot of people bored with CoH, so I figured that there might be people like me who are ready to go, and just waiting for someone else to make the first move.  And so, this thread. You'll notice above that I never made the assumption that this will happen. It's all based on "if" people want to do it. If they don't then business as usual. And who knows, maybe there IS someone who wants to move on, and this will be helpful to them.

It doesn't hurt to ask, but it can hurt not to.

Also keep in mind, this isn't just me trying to drag people along with me. I'm having enough fun in WoW to keep playing, but it's not so enthralling that I can't stand to stop. If any of the recently-departed have gone on to a game they can solidly endorse, I'm happy to give it a whirl.

[captainspud]

...we continue to play Second Life.  I'd say more about it, but I'm sure a certain buzzkill is waiting to drop his pants and dump on any comments...

Second Life isn't even a game. It's a chat room with graphics.

Seriously.

Almost prophetic

It's not prophetic when the person involved is replying to you.

[RTTingle]

   I think the thing is that COH is pretty much an extension of why we're all a community in the first place.  It's hero based.  Its why we're there in such large numbers.  Any other game is just going off into some other niche that some people may or may not enjoy.  The best chances or getting such a large group into another game is it following along those lines. 

   Like you said MUO is some time off, DC is far off and COH 2 is only on a chalkboard somewhere.  Nothing close to COH is out there.  So the chances of such a large group of us being in another game is slim.

   After 3 years I think its only natural that some people move a long.  Nothing against those still playing or such.  Some people deem it well worth $15 to keep playing with friends.  Others enjoy the friendship --- but can't stand being in the game anymore.  Nothing against one or the other.  We all have to remember, FR is still here for us to gather - no matter what other MMORPGs we play.  I think Spuds is just seeing what interest there is elsewhere to keep the comadre so to speak, wherever it may be.

    While I think COH is far from being abondoned by the FR community, I do see its glory days waning.  I still think it will have a strong FR presence.  I don't see it never being without one.  However, I do see it being a large swinging door though with a lot of members coming and going on a monthly basis depending on the strength of the new contest as its introduced.

   Any matters, save for for WOW, most of the games mentioned are off some ways.  Except for Tabula Rasa which is pretty much in Beta.  I tried it.  Not bad.  Ok.  Real pretty --- but the hamsters in my computer were begging for mercy.  Got burned out on anything resembling D&D way back in my teens.  Don't care to try any of the many that are out there.  Im ok with sci-fi... I may try Trek, depending.  Have no interest in Serenty or Stargate MMO's though.

   Being honest about Second Life, while I may call it a MMORPG ---  because it as all about role playing, I wouldn't classify it as a game.  There is no actual objective, levels, contacts, missions, etc (except to make money from the other players).  It pretty much is a chat room with graphics, or at least the Sims Online with better success.

    Hellgate London seems pretty interesting, and I played the Demo, but I don't think it'll hold anyones attention long enough to merit the thought.

    Whats captured my interest in MMO's that seems to be coming very soon, released this Holiday season, is Pirates of the Burning Seas.  I don't expect to see many of you there... but I'll keep an eye out.

RTT

[Kommando]

Being honest about Second Life, while I may call it a MMORPG ---  because it as all about role playing, I wouldn't classify it as a game.  There is no actual objective, levels, contacts, missions, etc (except to make money from the other players).  It pretty much is a chat room with graphics, or at least the Sims Online with better success.

Its more self-defining.  You make of it what you want it to be.  I've made avatars, vehicles, weapons, clothing, buildings, and other scripted gadgets.  I've played and customized in world games.  I used to spend so much time skinning and hexing here, and I didn't even play the game for the last couple of years.  Whereas, in SL, I can actually be what I create.  If I call it a game, its because it fits the criteria.  The goal is to accumulate stuff and improve yourself (maybe not with points, but my script library is huge).  I make money from it, what form of score keeping is more tangible than cold hard cash?  My onhand cash in SL is over US $800 at the moment, and that's not including liquid assets like land.  So yeah, its a self defining game, kind of like life but with a mute option.

[GhostMachine]

Spud, just out of curiosity, what type of server are you playing on in WoW (pvp, pve, rp) and are you Alliance or Horde?

[captainspud]

Its more self-defining.  You make of it what you want it to be.  I've made avatars, vehicles, weapons, clothing, buildings, and other scripted gadgets.  I've played and customized in world games.  I used to spend so much time skinning and hexing here, and I didn't even play the game for the last couple of years.  Whereas, in SL, I can actually be what I create.  If I call it a game, its because it fits the criteria.  The goal is to accumulate stuff and improve yourself (maybe not with points, but my script library is huge).  I make money from it, what form of score keeping is more tangible than cold hard cash?  My onhand cash in SL is over US $800 at the moment, and that's not including liquid assets like land.  So yeah, its a self defining game, kind of like life but with a mute option.

Thing is, I can do all that stuff in First Life. Plus the graphics are way nicer.

[Valandar]

Its more self-defining.  You make of it what you want it to be.  I've made avatars, vehicles, weapons, clothing, buildings, and other scripted gadgets.  I've played and customized in world games.  I used to spend so much time skinning and hexing here, and I didn't even play the game for the last couple of years.  Whereas, in SL, I can actually be what I create.  If I call it a game, its because it fits the criteria.  The goal is to accumulate stuff and improve yourself (maybe not with points, but my script library is huge).  I make money from it, what form of score keeping is more tangible than cold hard cash?  My onhand cash in SL is over US $800 at the moment, and that's not including liquid assets like land.  So yeah, its a self defining game, kind of like life but with a mute option.

Thing is, I can do all that stuff in First Life. Plus the graphics are way nicer.

http://www.getafirstlife.com/

[BlueBard]

LOL!

[captainspud]

Spud, just out of curiosity, what type of server are you playing on in WoW (pvp, pve, rp) and are you Alliance or Horde?

Night Elf Hunter on Alleria, a PvE shard. By and large, a very pleasant server.

[Kommando]

Its more self-defining.  You make of it what you want it to be.  I've made avatars, vehicles, weapons, clothing, buildings, and other scripted gadgets.  I've played and customized in world games.  I used to spend so much time skinning and hexing here, and I didn't even play the game for the last couple of years.  Whereas, in SL, I can actually be what I create.  If I call it a game, its because it fits the criteria.  The goal is to accumulate stuff and improve yourself (maybe not with points, but my script library is huge).  I make money from it, what form of score keeping is more tangible than cold hard cash?  My onhand cash in SL is over US $800 at the moment, and that's not including liquid assets like land.  So yeah, its a self defining game, kind of like life but with a mute option.

Thing is, I can do all that stuff in First Life. Plus the graphics are way nicer.

Well since I'm pretty much assured that the moment SL is brought up in one of these threads, that you are going to immediately dump on it (I noticed you had no comments about the other MMOs I mentioned), then I can at least be comforted by the fact I won't have to interact with you there.  As for "First Life", you can say that of any game.  You want to run around shooting people for no particular reason, go serve in the middle east.  You logic of singling out a specific game seems to be some hate on that you have.  You say its not a game, when clearly others have different opinions.  Your opinion is not fact, no matter how much you want it to be.  And you still criticize the experience as an outsider.  Then again, you always did get a thrill from dumping on what other people enjoy, n'est-ce pas?

[GhostMachine]

Spud, just out of curiosity, what type of server are you playing on in WoW (pvp, pve, rp) and are you Alliance or Horde?

Night Elf Hunter on Alleria, a PvE shard. By and large, a very pleasant server.

Nice. My main was a Night Elf Hunter on a PvE. I was on Whisperwind, which I recommend avoiding like the plague. Got laughed at some because I had a white Windserpent (that I named Wilbur) as my pet, but they didn't laugh long once they saw it in action.

I assume you know about the Petopia website? http://petopia.brashendeavors.net/

[captainspud]

Would you consider IRC to be a game? IRC itself. Not specific channels.

You can talk to others.
You can customize the way you appear to others.
You can use custom scripts.
You can modify the visuals.
You can find these things entertaining.

You can do the text equivalent of every single feature of Second Life.

Every. One.

But it's not a game. You don't "play" IRC. It's a chat room, or at the very furthest stretch, it's a game ENGINE. Yes, there are games inside of it. I played an IRC-based pokemon battle simulator when I was much younger, and I thought it was awesome.

A game engine is NOT a game. If I hand you a ball, a bat, and some wooden pegs, that's not a game. It BECOMES a game, however, when I give you a Cricket rule book. Or even when you pick up the bat and just start hitting the ball. That activity can be a game-- your challenge is to hit the ball, and your degree of success is in your % success rate, and the distance you hit, and any other factor you care to challenge yourself with.

Second Life is an engine. It's a tool. It can be USED to create games, but it, in itself, is not a game. Tools aren't fun, and have no inherent objectives. If I hand you a hammer, you're not going to enjoy it on its own. If you're mechanically inclined and I also hand you some planks and 10lbs of nails, THEN you might begin to enjoy yourself with that.

BUT.

It's still not a game. At that point, it's a hobby. You're participating in an activity for your own amusement.

Want to make it a game? That's easy-- time yourself. Decide what you're going to build and see how fast you can do it. Take it a step further-- once you have your time, try to beat it. Or see if your friend can do better in the same time. THAT is a game. It's kind of a crappy one, but that's beside the point. A game has an objective. It has rules.

Rules are a fundamental element of any game. Until you add constraints and objectives, it's somewhere between a tool and an activity. Deriving enjoyment is NOT a fundamental element. "I enjoy Second Life, therefore it's a game" is not a valid argument.

And therein lies my fundamental objection to SL. See, I have absolutely no problem with SL. It's a marvelous piece of software. I have a problem with its users and its operators. I have a problem with people who insist on falsely labeling it as a game. People who will argue and argue and argue to defend it as such. It's a basic flaw in human nature-- we assign supernormal significance to the things associated with us. People say their country is the best because it has the singular quality of having been that person's birthplace. People love their home hockey team for no reason other than proximity. People assume their own physical categorization-- race, gender, height, what have you-- is "normal" and refer to others by their difference from that template. People talk to their dogs, their cats, their plants, as if they were people. Some even insist they understand. I could sit here and cite a thousand examples, but the point it that players of the Second Life tool grow an emotional attachment to it, and begin to assign it properties it quite simply does not qualify for.

Rules are a fundamental element of any game. Until you add constraints and objectives, it's somewhere between a tool and an activity. Deriving enjoyment is NOT a fundamental element. "I enjoy Second Life, therefore it's a game" is not a valid argument.

Will Wright is one of the people who has probably thought the most in recent years about what does and doesn't constitute a game. You'll notice that when he's talking, he almost never uses the word to describe his own products. He makes simulations. Simulations have rules, but no objective. They say, "these are the 43 different things you can do", but don't tell you what your end-state is. As long as you obey the rules, the game goes on forever. In a way, though, he DOES create games-- for himself. HIS game is to make a toolset and see what people do with it. HIS game has an end-state, in a rather twisted way.

And now we get to the "why does Spud get so angry about this" segment of the post. Basically, I'm sick and tired of the general practice in society of people raping the English language. Words mean certain things, and they mean it for a reason. More and more, people intentionally misapply a definition for political or selfish reasons. Reflexology is not medicine. ID is not a science. SL is not a game. Crispers are a CRACKER, GO**AMNIT. NOBODY EATS CHUNKY SOUP WITH A FORK. People, mostly companies, intentionally create confusion on how items and concepts are labelled; the motivation is anywhere between "it's clever" to "so people will more easily accept [whatever]". Either way, it's making society stupid. It makes people like you argue when you know full well you're wrong. Because, Such and Such a person said it was so. Well, sorry, but Such and Such a person bleeping LIED to you. Linden wants Second Life to be labelled a game because they think, rightfully so, that people will be more willing to try out a game than a simulation or an engine. But they never say it themselves, because someone will give them the exact smackdown I just did. So, they influence the playerbase and get THEM to preach the message. It's all politics. Call it X and people will accept it. Call it Y and they won't. And who cares what the collateral is to the general comprehensive abilities of the human race.

Wow... I never thought I'd get any practical use out of Game Design Theory class, but hot damn, I think I just referenced half the bloody curriculum. :D

[Midnight]

Mm. I'd migrate if the game were compelling enough.

Tabula Rasa isn't compelling enough. World of Warcraft isn't compelling enough.

I've said this before many times, but my other 'online game' is Counter Strike. It's mindless, cathartic, there's a sense of community (I've played the same server for almost two years) and... I already own it.