i never understood why people go up in arms about the idea of cap using a gun, his core concept is a WWII solider of course he used a gun, come on.

hell even back then batman was drawn using them

Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on November 07, 2007, 04:20:05 PM
i never understood why people go up in arms about the idea of cap using a gun, his core concept is a WWII solider of course he used a gun, come on.

hell even back then batman was drawn using them

Yes, but that was during different times and it was justifiable for Cap to be packing heat back then because we were at war.

Batman didn't use guns per se. At least, not against normal crooks, anyway. I have Batman Chronicles vol #1, and the only times he used guns that I seem to recall (don't have my copy handy, and don't feel like getting up to go get it) were against the Monk and Dala (who were vampires) and Hugo Strange's monsters (who were mutated humans that couldn't be changed back).

However, Batman did willingly kill criminals in some of those early stories. Even Robin killed one or two during his first appearance (fighting Zucco's men up high on a construction site he swung around and knocked one off a girder and may have knocked another one off with a shot from a slingshot)....

The only time I recall Cap using a gun and shooting someone outside WW II was during the Mike Zeck era, when he was forced to grab an uzi and shoot an ULTIMATUM terrorist who was threatening to kill an innocent hostage. Cap's shield was on the other side of the room and he had no choice but to use the gun, and he regretted having to do it. But  it was a terrorist and not a super-villain or normal criminal.

Besides, how do we know the gun the new Cap (who hopefully will be Bucky\Winter Soldier and won't be around as Cap for long - I'm predicting Steve will be back by issue #50, if not sooner) is packing is a normal gun? Maybe it'll be like that needle gun that Nick Fury used sometimes or it'll be using specialized ammo - sort of a handgun equivalent to Hawkeye's bow and arrows, or just loaded with some kind of high-tech stun bullets.

I feel that it is wrong because Captain America is a symbol of the American ideal.  As such, it was one of the reasons that Steve never carried or used one on a regular basis.  The message it sends symbolically is what really gets me about having a gun as part of the costume now.

Batman is a symbol of fear, but really, in Gotham who is really afraid of guns anymore anyway?

Actually, I think it's pretty appropriate that Cap, Symbol of America, would carry a gun. He represents ALL Americans, not just "you guys", and a huge chunk of Americans consider the right to bear arms some kind of borderline-religious right.

Besides... Cap has actually killed a fair number of people over the years. He avoids it if possible, but I could name three or four without even thinking too hard.

"us guys"?  I'm not against gun rights at all; just against anyone with the name Captain America doing it.  He has the name of Captain, but not the rank.  In the Ultimate universe Steve was a military man, but in the regular Marvel U the 'captain' in his name is honorary.  I'm just saying that he is the symbol that is the essense of America, a bare knuckle fighter using his brains, fists, and shield to defend liberty-not shoot it out like a thug.  Are they going to give US Agent a gatt next?  Captain America is a symbol to aspire to, but what is that now?  Anyone can "aspire" to be a man with a gun.

In that same vein, isn't that what the image of America is right now? I mean, we've got Captain Bombs-a-lot as our president. Everyone outside of America sees us as the guntotting hicks. We are actually evil in the eyes of many countries and cultures. At least when people die in other countries, most time they are in wars. American's kill ourselves with guns even in times of peace.

Quote from: Spe-Dog on November 08, 2007, 09:16:04 AM
"us guys"?  I'm not against gun rights at all; just against anyone with the name Captain America doing it.  He has the name of Captain, but not the rank.  In the Ultimate universe Steve was a military man, but in the regular Marvel U the 'captain' in his name is honorary.  I'm just saying that he is the symbol that is the essense of America, a bare knuckle fighter using his brains, fists, and shield to defend liberty-not shoot it out like a thug.  Are they going to give US Agent a gatt next?  Captain America is a symbol to aspire to, but what is that now?  Anyone can "aspire" to be a man with a gun.

Spe, as usual, you and I think alike.  I don't really have that big of a problem with Cap using a gun in war time, after all, he IS an old soldier, but I agree with your take on it.

Quote from: captainspud on November 08, 2007, 07:48:32 AM
Actually, I think it's pretty appropriate that Cap, Symbol of America, would carry a gun. He represents ALL Americans, not just "you guys", and a huge chunk of Americans consider the right to bear arms some kind of borderline-religious right.

You honestly have no idea what most Americans are like...

The costume still sux. :P

-MJB

Quote from: thanoson on November 09, 2007, 09:51:45 AM
In that same vein, isn't that what the image of America is right now? I mean, we've got Captain Bombs-a-lot as our president. Everyone outside of America sees us as the guntotting hicks. We are actually evil in the eyes of many countries and cultures. At least when people die in other countries, most time they are in wars. American's kill ourselves with guns even in times of peace.

This isn't really the place for this, but just to correct a sterotype:  America may have more gun crimes than many other first world nations, but we hardly corner the market on violent crimes.  I've traveled over a good portion of the Western world, and there is violence everywhere.  You've got machete gangs in Edinburgh, beatings in Denmark, and riots in Paris.  After outlawing guns in Denmark violent offenders began to use bats, knives, anything at hand, but the violence remained.  For heavens sakes, Switzerland is one of the safest countries in the world, and it's BECAUSE everyone is armed.

Benton is right, this isn't the place for this. I'm guilty of egging it on as well.

Keep it on subject people. This goes double for that Emjaybee guy...

-MJB

Ok, I worship the feet of Alex Ross as much as everyone else, but I swear, the guy just reuses the same costume multiple times. The new Captain America looks like a patriotic Silver Agent, gun and all.

Thanks Em.

Also: Assuming that the new Captain America isn't Steve, then wouldn't the new one be hired and maintained by the Initiative/current establishment? If Iron Man wants the new Captain America to have a gun, then the new Captain America is going to have a gun. Steve represented the American Ideal that created the country, the new one is going to represent the Ideal who ever is in charge wants to believe in. Although, it's not that the new Captain America is going to get to kill anyone important with the gun, since guys like Red Skull and Crossbones (Well, maybe not Crossbones...) are his main villains. It's like how Magneto will never be finally defeated for the last time.

Heh. Someone needs to model Minute Man with a bazooka to represents Patriot City's reaction to Captain America's upgrade in weaponry.

Fine. Sheesh, you guys never let me have any fun. Eh, I welcome change from time to time. Heck, most of the time. Gun doesn't bother me. When USAgent was killing his enemies wearing Cap's outfit, I was thinking "awesome". BTW, how do you wash blood off of that suit? Nobody liked the Punisher/Cap outfit either. I thought it was pretty good. It crossed both outfits fine. Was it the traditional Captain and his his views/outfit? Hell no. But, they both served it's purpose in entertaining me.

I've said it before but if the new Cap isn't Bucky I'll eat my shirt.

Meh ... from what I've read, I'm guessing the 'new' storyline is going to be something similar to when John Walker aka Super Patriot aka USAgent became Cap: idealistic patriot starts off well then shows how inferior he is to Steve Rogers by going crazy/obeying the government/being a spaz. The costume has a gun and knife, so you know something is going to go awry.

Steve Rogers returns, in his old costume, doing the same old stuff he's being for the past 50 years. Comic readers eat it up, and the new guy in his unpopular costume is relegated to Jack Flag status ... or just plain bumped off.

I don't feel like quoting, so I'll just jump in:

Thanoson, if you thought USAgent killing people as Cap was "awesome", you didn't get the point. Quite frankly, as much as I think the Watchdogs got what they deserved, Walker was disgracing the "uniform" of Captain America the entire time he was wearing it, and that was the high point of it.

Jakew, you're probably right about the new storyline in some way, and what will happen. The problem is it seems to be too much a rehash of what Mark Gruenwald did by putting Walker in the costume, except the real Cap is apparently dead this time.

The characters in the MU (Like that idiot Sally Floyd in "Frontline") who saw Steve as an out of touch anachronism and the real life writers who have said it doesn't matter who is in the Captain America costume just don't get it:

Steve Rogers represents the American Dream and the way things *should* be, not how they are. And he was NOT that out of touch; Cap actually used a computer BBS for a while back when they were popular to help him fight crime, and I'm pretty sure he kept up with modern computer technology. Who gives a rat's rump if he watched NASCAR or all that other crap that was mentioned in "Frontline"? I sure don't.

USAgent represents this country the way it is, and what's wrong with it, quite frankly, more than he does the American Dream. (I usually refer to USAgent as "A-Hole America")

And its probable that whoever the new Cap is (and I am betting its Bucky\Winter Soldier...or will be (ie, if its one of Stark's flunkies they get taken out pretty quick by Winter Soldier, who takes over the identity)) will be just as bad a representation of Captain America as USAgent was.

If the new Cap is a brand new character, I don't want them relegated to Jack Flag status when Steve returns; I want `em either dead or with enough permanent physical damage that they can't take on a different super-hero identity, because you just know that's what would happen.

I still believe, however, that Steve will be back by issue #50, if not sooner.

Quote from: GhostMachine on November 09, 2007, 09:58:30 PM
Steve Rogers represents the American Dream and they way things *should* be, not how they are.

Well said.  That sums it up quite nicely.  As Joe Simone said, "We need him now more than ever."

No, I got it. I just enjoyed it more than some people did.

SUPER BUMP!

New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...

[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]

Quote from: Spitfire on November 09, 2007, 03:10:12 PM
Heh. Someone needs to model Minute Man with a bazooka to represents Patriot City's reaction to Captain America's upgrade in weaponry.

http://freedomreborn.net/archive/index.php?topic=42111.0

Quote from: Previsionary on December 30, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
SUPER BUMP!

New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...

[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]

I'm not sure where that revelation ranks among comics' biggest "non-surprises"

Somebody should make some sort of comparative scale that we can refer to.   

Quote from: Previsionary on December 30, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
SUPER BUMP!

New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...

[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]

Well duh. Seriously who else could it have been?

Quote from: Previsionary on December 30, 2007, 04:42:53 AM
SUPER BUMP!

New Cap is revealed and it's none other than...

[spoiler]Winter Soldier/Bucky[/spoiler]

and in other shocking news, waters wet, sky is blue and marvel have there head up there arse

[spoiler]What about Bucky's arm beating the snot out of all those scientists?[/spoiler]

I laugh out loud on more then 1 occasion during my weekly read of new issues, but never out of pure absurdity.

While it wasn't a surprise, I'm glad Winter Soldier became the new Cap. He really is what American is now. Violence, brainwashed, technologically enhanced, and always packing heat. I still hate that costume though. Just ugly.

[spoiler]I liked how they portrayed Iron-Man in this issue, looks like he`s trying to redeem himself.
[/spoiler]

Why is Cap wearing a Puerto Rican flag?

Quote from: AfghanAnt on December 30, 2007, 12:21:39 PM
While it wasn't a surprise, I'm glad Winter Soldier became the new Cap. He really is what American is now. Violence, brainwashed, technologically enhanced, and always packing heat. I still hate that costume though. Just ugly.

Let's not go through this again.

-MJB

Quote from: Zippo on December 30, 2007, 03:58:28 PM
Why is Cap wearing a Puerto Rican flag?

Heh heh heh.

A few years ago for July 4th I put on my Cap America shirt I got in Chicago at Wizard World.  The GF at the time looks at me and says, "Rich, I didn't know you were Puerto Rican."

RTT