Cap's back...kinda

[GhostMachine]

Someone brought up the Puerto Rico thing over at Byrne Robotics a while back.

As for Bucky (lets not use Winter Soldier, as that was his brainwashed name and he's not brainwashed anymore) being the new Cap, I think its the best choice and I kind of like the way they're setting it up (I just read #33 a few days ago) and I like how they had Bucky get the drop on Stark and Tony getting him to listen to him rather than having Iron Man beat Bucky and force him to listen.

Other than when he pulled the trigger on the gun Dr. Faustus gave him when Faustus attempted to brainwash him, not knowing whether or not it was loaded (and frankly, that was kind of justifiable under the circumstances), does anyone know if Bucky has actually killed anyone (or attempted to) since Cap used the Cosmic Cube to restore his memories?

Hopefully, Bucky won't kill people as Cap, but I wouldn't be all that upset if he does kill the Red Skull (who'll get better - Zola probably has a cloned body or two already waiting), Dr. Faustus, or any members of ULTIMATUM if they show up (is ULTIMATUM even around anymore? I know Flag-Smasher, who was their leader, was killed off).

*edit* Forgot to mention: I wonder if the fact that Cap's corpse reverted to pre-Super Soldier formula 98lb weakling form was either bad writing or a clue that the corpse isn't really Cap. When Steve had the Super Soldier formula removed from his body temporarily before he didn't revert, so why should his corpse?

[Alaric]

*edit* Forgot to mention: I wonder if the fact that Cap's corpse reverted to pre-Super Soldier formula 98lb weakling form was either bad writing or a clue that the corpse isn't really Cap. When Steve had the Super Soldier formula removed from his body temporarily before he didn't revert, so why should his corpse?

You're refering to the time in the '80s when when the serum was temporarily removed from Cap's body and later regenerated itself. However, there was an earlier story, in the late '70s, I think, where Cap temporarily psychologicaly rejects the serum, and his body does indeed revert to "98 lb weakling" mode. In other words, they've never been consistant about this.

[Mystik]

after seeing one page of the new cap in action, all my doubts washed away
[spoiler]http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/Cap34_gun.jpg[/spoiler]

[BlueBard]

Okay... that page goes a fair way toward making me feel better about the new Cap.  Unfortunately I'm not up on my Winter Soldier history so I only have a vague clue as to how this Cap ticks and what his abilities are.  But that, I have to admit, was not bad.

[steamteck]

after seeing one page of the new cap in action, all my doubts washed away
[spoiler]http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/CapAmerica/Cap34_gun.jpg[/spoiler]

Just another new comic I won't be getting. Even that one page really ticked me off.

[bat1987]

Just read the issue, I liked it, it`s worth picking up. And i kinda liked the new costume, looks much better in comic than on the preview photos.

[murs47]

Just like the previous 33 issues, this one was solid gold. It may not be Steve Rogers, but a good book is still a good book.

[Podmark]

I keep hearing great things about Bru's Cap, might be worth getting a trade perhaps.

[Previsionary]

yes, the issue was a good read and the costume, as I expected, wasn't as shiny on actual paper. Though, it does make me think the shiny bits are some type of liquid at times. *shrugs*

Steamtech, what ticked you off about Bucky using his own methods to honor Steve? I wouldn't expect him to be a carbon copy because that kinda negates change. Besides, it will give Bucky some new characterization and probably bring him fully mainstream. Also, this + his appearance in Young Avengers really paints his stance on Steve and being captain america, me thinks.

[Podmark]

Was Bucky Cap in the Young Avengers issue? Or was he still the Winter Soldier?

[Previsionary]

Was Bucky Cap in the Young Avengers issue? Or was he still the Winter Soldier?

He was winter soldier, but he and Eli had a pretty good talk about the old[er] caps.

[zuludelta]

Took a peek at the debut issue of "new" Cap in my LCS... I have to admit, I'm pretty impressed at how Brubaker has managed to pull this coup off. Just like his concurrent work on Marvel's Immortal Iron Fist (in collaboration with Matt Fraction) and the late, lamented Gotham Central for DC, he's treading the fine line between serious drama and costumed superheroics and for now, at least, he's making it work. Just further proves the notion that a skilled writer can take most any concept, even one as allegedly contrived as the "shock death" of Steve Rogers, and turn it into a good read.

Still not a fan of Alex Ross' "Captain Puerto Rico" costume re-design, but Steve Epting and the rest of the art team did a good job of not making it look too garish and shiny the way it looked in Ross' previews.

[murs47]

I keep hearing great things about Bru's Cap, might be worth getting a trade perhaps.

Pod, I highly recommend getting the omnibus.

[Haljack]

Ditto, one of the best books around

[steamteck]

yes, the issue was a good read and the costume, as I expected, wasn't as shiny on actual paper. Though, it does make me think the shiny bits are some type of liquid at times. *shrugs*

Steamtech, what ticked you off about Bucky using his own methods to honor Steve? I wouldn't expect him to be a carbon copy because that kinda negates change. Besides, it will give Bucky some new characterization and probably bring him fully mainstream. Also, this + his appearance in Young Avengers really paints his stance on Steve and being captain america, me thinks.

If he honors Cap by shooting people in the kneecaps he really doesn't deserve to be in the costume anymore than the punisher IMO.

[Talavar]

yes, the issue was a good read and the costume, as I expected, wasn't as shiny on actual paper. Though, it does make me think the shiny bits are some type of liquid at times. *shrugs*

Steamtech, what ticked you off about Bucky using his own methods to honor Steve? I wouldn't expect him to be a carbon copy because that kinda negates change. Besides, it will give Bucky some new characterization and probably bring him fully mainstream. Also, this + his appearance in Young Avengers really paints his stance on Steve and being captain america, me thinks.

If he honors Cap by shooting people in the kneecaps he really doesn't deserve to be in the costume anymore than the punisher IMO.

Because someone with enhanced strength hitting a person in the face with an indestructible shield would never do any lasting damage?  I didn't realize breaking cheek, nose and jaw bones is more acceptable than kneecaps.

[BentonGrey]

Well, technically Talavar, shooting someone in the kneecaps could cripple them for life.  Pulverizing someone's cheekbones is just going to make them ugly.

[YoungHeros]

If he honors Cap by shooting people in the kneecaps he really doesn't deserve to be in the costume anymore than the punisher IMO.

You said it!

[Previsionary]

Well, technically Talavar, shooting someone in the kneecaps could cripple them for life.  Pulverizing someone's cheekbones is just going to make them ugly.

technically, hitting someone in the face with a large shield with enhanced strength could easily snap someone's neck, bruise an eye to the point of surgery, break bones, cause internal bleeding, etc. etc. You just drop that realism and go with what you see and forget the consequences.

Steamteck, he's not honoring steve by shooting people, he's honoring him by donning the suit and trying  to be heroic [something cap wanted him to do, btw]. Him shooting peeps in the kneecaps may be an action you disagree with, but it fits Bucky's character as of now. Technically, you can't really judge him without giving him a try. If you don't wanna do that, well, you don't really have a full leg to stand on in the judgment area, me thinks. Besides comparing bucky to Punisher is a little extreme. They're nothing alike in personality or actions taken or even background.

PS. He used the gun in one scene while being surrounded and trying to adapt to Cap's style while mixing in a little of his own flair. Just because he wears a modified cap armor does not mean his personality should suddenly change to fit into Steve's mold. No other cap were carbon copies of each other and they've all changed something. If you don't like Bucky taking over the mantle, who would you have chosen and why?

[steamteck]

Thanks Bentongrey. Punching someone is sure lots more heroic and shooting off their kneecaps and crippling them for life. Maybe they'll all come back with bionic legs and attack him. :D
I dunno its kind of discouraging this seems hard to fathom. My best friend saw that page and said he really wished marvel would just tank so maybe the characters could be bought by someone who gets it and cares. Cap was always his favorite but not this guy. "One step below the Punisher" was the call. Killing them outright is at least clean. Comparison is not extreme no matter what the circumstances around the action because of the action itself  and the way it was depicted.

Methinks by just that page I have plenty of legs  to stand on. If you think that's  even vaguely in Caps spirit  we simply can't communicate.
There's a whole big difference in a punch and a gunshot wound that everyone  knows the consequences of in the real world. It was purposely sadistic p[lain and simple. He choose to take those particular shots and enjoyed it.
I realize we wouldn't convince each other and this conversation is really depressing me so I think I'll just bow out. My style hero doesn't seem to exist or even be understood anymore. They just get smaller and smaller every year.

[Previsionary]

Yep, the convo is going nowhere because I don't see Bucky as just a steve clone or someone that has to stick to steve's EXACT image. No one is asking you to change your opinion of Steve Roger's cap/classic cap, but you do realize that the mantle was passed on, no? That's why I don't have a huge problem with it because it's Bucky doing it...something he's been doing for awhile. We don't know how he'll change down the line and everyone is coming down on him hard because he's doing something Steve wouldn't do in the past few years (though, iirc, Steve has used weapons before, but that point has been argued to death).

The difference between me and a few of you guys is...I'm seeing this as a Bucky trying to fill someone else's shoes. Someone he probably doubts he can fill (as he expressed), but he won't let anyone else try. I don't just stick in the closed box where I think, "this is what steve would do," because Steve, as of this moment, isn't around anymore. It's similar to when DC changes their mantles, you shouldn't expect the new guy to do the same things as the previous owners and that seems to have worked out well enough.

Now, I could probably understand all the complaints and backlash a lot better if it was Steve Rogers or someone similar to steve that started going around shooting guns and such...but it's Bucky and this is how he operates...for now on a single mission on his first day as captain america...the tenth guy to hold the name.

But yeah...I'm done.

I did notice you ignored my, "if not bucky...then who"--but that's fine. :P

[Podmark]

If you don't like Bucky taking over the mantle, who would you have chosen and why?

I don't have a problem with Bucky being Cap as it's the logical progression of Bru's run as I understand it.

That said I always thought the Falcon would have been the ideal Cap. And I kinda like the idea of Hawkeye in the role.

[Previsionary]

If you don't like Bucky taking over the mantle, who would you have chosen and why?

I don't have a problem with Bucky being Cap as it's the logical progression of Bru's run as I understand it.

That said I always thought the Falcon would have been the ideal Cap. And I kinda like the idea of Hawkeye in the role.

Yes, I can see falcon doing a fairly good job if his other personality is fully gone. Fun Fact: Falcon has replaced Steve before. See: Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty #8 and #9

[Podmark]

Yes, I can see falcon doing a fairly good job if his other personality is fully gone. Fun Fact: Falcon has replaced Steve before. See: Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty #8 and #9

Yep I knew that :)

[steamteck]

Sorry Previsionary, I didn't ignore it , just lost it in my passion. To me Bucky's still dead guy so he isn't real to me. If he is Bucky then he is the logical choice but that doesn't change anything else about his conduct or worthiness. The Falcon wouldn't be bad and unless he has been Retroconned also he'd stick more to Caps ideals.

[steamteck]

Hopefully, Bucky won't kill people as Cap, but I wouldn't be all that upset if he does kill the Red Skull (who'll get better - Zola probably has a cloned body or two already waiting), Dr. Faustus, or any members of ULTIMATUM if they show up (is ULTIMATUM even around anymore? I know Flag-Smasher, who was their leader, was killed off).

I'd rather him kill people than shoot off their knees.

[Talavar]

I really don't know how to see this situation.  Somehow, it would be better if Bucky shot them in the face than in the leg? 

And just to address my earlier point - getting knocked out by a metal shield to the head could do a lot worse than making people ugly.  Brain damage, eye damage, neck damage - all are significantly impairing, and a very real risk from how Capt. America always fought.

If one form of non-lethal fantasy violence - smashing people unconscious with a metal disc to the skull - is acceptable, is it anything other than the fetishization of guns, for good & bad, to see leg shots as worse, or particularly, worse than kill-shots?  I know I'd take walking with a cane over mouldering in the dirt.

[Previsionary]

I really don't know how to see this situation.  Somehow, it would be better if Bucky shot them in the face than in the leg? 

And just to address my earlier point - getting knocked out by a metal shield to the head could do a lot worse than making people ugly.  Brain damage, eye damage, neck damage - all are significantly impairing, and a very real risk from how Capt. America always fought.

If one form of non-lethal fantasy violence - smashing people unconscious with a metal disc to the skull - is acceptable, is it anything other than the fetishization of guns, for good & bad, to see leg shots as worse, or particularly, worse than kill-shots?  I know I'd take walking with a cane over mouldering in the dirt.

Many thanks, talavar, for pointing out that damage by a shield is just as bad as a gun shot wound. I pointed that out above, but I'm assuming it was ignored. Again, people just wipe that aside because it's not a weapon we associate with life-threatening wounds or ramifications because it's fantastical in its nature. Like I said, somehow we wipe all that under some magical blanket and forget that Cap, with super human abilities, is swinging around a large metal shield that could easily take someone's head off, can cause major damage, can cut through several different material, and can reflect *gasp* bullets (which could actually hit someone), because he's Steve and he's never been shown to actually damage people like that (robots on the other hand...)?

Though, it strikes me as odd that'd people would accept Bucky *killing* under the "Captain America" moniker, but for shame if he chooses to add in a few of his own weapons besides a shield. :P

Just to expand, my main problem with most of the complaining is that people are unfairly judging bucky on Steve's merits. I don't think that's right because, surprise surprise, Bucky is not Steve. Judge him on his own merits and actions under the name Captain America, not just Steve, Jeff, Isaac, etc. He's his own character and should be treated as such. Also, all this complaining is sending a message; the first time Marvel finally tries to do a major change (which, iirc, people complained because marvel didn't change much after all their events), people try to shoot it down because Bucky isn't Steve. I'd understand it more if it was a really bad way of forcing a change (see Spider-man OMD or the clone saga), but this story was plotted out fairly well and Bucky didn't instantly take up the mantle. At least give the guy time to get adjusted before you all start throwing dirt on him cause we all know Steve will be back soon enough and you can be glad that Steve isn't the one pulling the trigger cause I'd think that'd hurt your vision of him more than say...Bucky under a new moniker. Besides, new guy under the suit trying to adjust while keeping his own flair/personality and trying to come to terms with stuff that's happened to him and those around him = new stories that probably couldn't be explored with Steve as the Capt.

[steamteck]

Ok, Lets try it this way. I won't enjoy reading about ANY superhero who crippled people on purpose That's its Captain America makes it infinitely worse. If Superman ever really dies will his successor heat vision peoples legs off  and it be OK  because he's not quite  the original Superman?
The Knee shots are just nasty petty and unheroic. If Cap is just another guy with a gun I have no use for him.

[starlock]

Ok, Lets try it this way. I won't enjoy reading about ANY superhero who crippled people on purpose That's its Captain America makes it infinitely worse. If Superman ever really dies will his successor heat vision peoples legs off  and it be OK  because he's not quite  the original Superman?
The Knee shots are just nasty petty and unheroic. If Cap is just another guy with a gun I have no use for him.

:thumbup:
Stopped collecting captain america the issue before he died and never looked back