i have yet to read the final part( dont get my comics till monday due to xmas) but i have read the end write up
seriously what in the hell is happening with this book.
[spoiler]so what harrys back and normans dead? how does this effect the other books. is gargen venom still does harry know about his dad and pete.so what happened during civial war now, just some of the many questions that are flying around my head
basiclly joey Q has slapped every fan in the face and got his own way[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
if there's one thing that should never be retconned in the history of spider-man ever.... it's this
[/spoiler]
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on December 29, 2007, 01:50:52 PM
[spoiler]
if there's one thing that should never be retconned in the history of spider-man ever.... it's this
[/spoiler]
really how so?
[spoiler]
peter and mary never even dating? screw up so many things it's mind boggling[/spoiler]
[spoiler]I was reading some posts about this and it's gotta be the most insane retcon I've ever seen. Harry's just back? Peter and MJ's relationship is wiped from history? And pretty much all of JMS' run and who knows what else wiped out too. This is gotta be the most confusing thing I've ever seen and it can only hurt Brand New Day, which I thought was a good concept.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Well, I'll just say that two issues of this event killed any remaining love I had for spidey. Not necessarily because of the writing, which was fine iirc, but because the concept is so...out there. Also, I happened to like MJ and Peter together since that's the relationship I, and probably a majority of the spidey fans (comic and mainstream/movie/tv), have had the most exposure to. She's only been the main love interest in 3 movies, 2 (possibly 3) cartoons, and she has a comic based on their relationship and now we're just supposed to forget it because Quesada wants peter single so he can have more story options...though a marriage doesnt exactly hinder story ideas nor age Peter...but that's just my rationale.[/spoiler]
Also, we're losing FNSM, a book I really liked just because it wasn't all dark and gloomy like other certain spidey books, for more amazing spidey. Regardless, I might check out BND just to see how things work out, though the new villains/hero(es?) don't really interest me much.
[spoiler]Don't really read Spider-Man these days outside of the occasional TPB I borrow from the library, but I can appreciate the thinking behind One More Day. I don't think it's editorial being against the idea of a Peter Parker married to MJ per se, it's just that a married Peter Parker sort of limits what writers can do with the character and his supporting cast. With MJ and Peter married, a lot of the romantic tension that defined their relationship was gone... it's the same reason why Archie never really settled with either Betty or Veronica, Archie ending up with either one of them would have ruined the dynamic. When Peter married MJ, Peter finally "won", which sort of undercuts the whole notion of the character as the underdog we all love to root for... I mean how is he an underdog anymore, he's married to a smoking hot lingerie model for goodness' sake! The marriage introduced a sense of finality and closure with one important aspect of Peter Parker's life, and as good as that sounds on the surface, it's not really a good strategy if you're planning on publishing stories with the same character indefinitely while hoping to retain the same type of dynamic.
It's sort of like what happened to the Punisher character back in the early 1980s: once he had killed his family's alleged murderers (it might have been an issue of Marvel Fanfare where this happened, in any event, this occurred before there was even any solo Punisher book) and he finally gained some closure, there was nowhere left to take the character. He was created as a character motivated by revenge, and once he had gained that measure of vengeance, that was it, he would have to essentially be re-made to have a different motivation if he were to continue in his criminal-killing exploits. Writer Steven Grant knew that when he was tasked to write the 1986 Punisher mini-series, which is why he had to create a somewhat contrived (but still effective) set of circumstances in that story for Frank Castle to reprise his Punisher role (IIRC, he was trying to stop a nationwide organization of copycat vigilantes that his prior exploits had inspired). Quite unexpectedly, the mini-series became a hit, and the mini-series eventually led to a regular series. But the problem remained. Why would the Punisher keep on killing if his primary motivation for taking up the vigilante cause no longer holds? At first, writers tried to duplicate Grant's approach, coming up with interesting reasons and circumstances for Frank Castle interminably donning the black, skull-emblazoned uniform but it wasn't too long before they stopped bothering... "killing criminals" became something that the Punisher did, with little offered by way of motivation save for a perfunctory allusion to his family's death at the hands of the mob, leading to a one-dimensional character that was neither interesting (eventually the contrivances devised by the writers to keep the Punisher killing criminals would start showing their weaknesses) nor sympathetic ("revenge" is a concept we can all relate to, and with that taken away, there wasn't really much left to hang a story on with regards to the Punisher). It was only when Garth Ennis came along, painting the Punisher as a serial killer fueled by a psychotic obsession to kill those he deemed guilty (and thus dispensing with any lip service to the idea that the Punisher is in any shape or form a traditional "hero"), that the character again gained any true motivation for his actions.
The same sort of storytelling problem that plagued the Punisher books for most of their existence was creeping in on Spider-Man after the decision was made to let him marry MJ. How do you create romantic tension (an important aspect of any extended Peter Parker storyline) in his married relationship? Before he was married, the romantic tension was introduced by using the typical devices: some new romantic interest comes in and woos MJ or Peter, Peter's adventures as Spider-Man ruins his dating plans with MJ, etc., basically Marvel-ized variations of the issues any young, dating couple face. With Peter married, those elements would paint Peter and MJ in a less-than-flattering light... the inclusion of a credible third-party romantic interest would make MJ and/or Peter look like they were guilty of, if not adultery, infidelity. Peter letting his marriage go to pot as he attends to his superheroics would make him look like a neglectful husband. And unlike the Punisher, Marvel couldn't really have Spider-Man portrayed in such a negative light. Thus, the only card left to play in the romantic tension game was using MJ as the damsel-in-distress to Spider-Man's knight-in-shining-armour, which can only work for so long before it gets tired and boring.
With all that being said, do I think One More Day was a step in the right direction? Yes, I think the decision to dissolve the marriage was the right one to make in the interest of the long-term viability of the character (the same way say, that DC's clumsy attempts at "rebooting" their whole universe are necessary to keep their characters from getting too dated), but boy, I can't imagine how any writer can make it read good (from what I've read of the storyline on Wikipedia)... I mean, seeing what's involved this has the potential not only to be "Sins Past" bad, but "Clone Saga" bad (although I like seeing Joe Quesada drawing again)
[/spoiler]
sir zulu,
[spoiler]I've no problem with the marriage being dissolved, I have a problem with how it was dissolved and how so much of spidey's history has been undone. That's just not a good way to undo something. It basically erases a bunch of history from Spidey and Marvel U in general (IE: Civil War is drastically changed since Spidey revealed himself to protect aunt may and MJ or something like that, Harry returning and being on good terms with Pete, etc.). Also, JMS has gone on record saying this is pretty much all Joey's idea (and it's been no real secret that he and others have hated the marriage [and MJ] for quite the longest time putting Gwen ahead of her):
Quote from: JMS"there's a lot that I don't agree with, and I made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel, especially Joe Quesada... there was a point where I made the decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last two issues of the OMD arc." Eventually Joe talked me out of that decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those."
Also, I really don't think he's won all that much with winning MJ's hand in marriage. There's still plenty to write with him dating (or married) to her. IMO, it's no different than him being tied to Aunt may all these years except there's romance involved. If he can have all these good stories with Aunt may around (i'm effectively ignoring her deaths), then I think a good writer can pull off some good MJ/Peter stories. They somehow managed to pull it off with Cyclops/Jean [bad example ^_^]and possibly Luke Cage and Jessica (haven't read much of them). Regardless of that, this whole story was plagued with being over-hyped and delays because of Joey's drawing. It may look nice, but delays really hurt the story (and they were already hyping/spoiling BND by issue 2 of this story so...all the POTENTIAL excitement for this story just disappeared). So rambling over, I don't care if the marriage is dissolved, but do it in a non-random, Mephisto unrelated way. If that much of spidey's history is erased (and if it effectively change major events in the Marvel Universe), then it causes MORE problems than it fixes (or attempts to fix). Heck, if this change even remains in play for longer than a few months, they'll have to eventually go back and tell what happened in all these events and how many times do you want to relive Marvel's Civil War? Not to mention, I happen to think that it's a good idea when comic characters mature a bit. I don't really want characters to move backwards (which is why I don't really like Wolverine when he randomly returns to his lone wolf, grunting, killing machine personality when otherwise he's shown differently); but that's just me.[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Quote from: PrevisionaryNot to mention, I happen to think that it's a good idea when comic characters mature a bit. I don't really want characters to move backwards (which is why I don't really like Wolverine when he randomly returns to his lone wolf, grunting, killing machine personality when otherwise he's shown differently); but that's just me.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of characters developing over time myself (big fan of long-running comics series that have a well-defined beginning, middle, and end and showcase character development such as Koike and Kojima's
Lone Wolf and Cub and Ennis'
Preacher), I just don't think having characters categorically mature and date themselves with respect to certain life milestones or real-world events (getting married, celebrating their 30th birthday, referencing 9/11 in a storyline, etc.) is a good idea over the long-term when it comes to certain "timeless" characters. It's one of the vagaries of writing for long-running serial media that have potentially non-finite spans for their stories. At some point, the writers will have to return to the status quo at the core of the success of the comics (Again, I point to DC's
Infinite Crisis of Deus Ex Machina Re-Boots and Excessively Complicated Story Contrivances or Marvel's equally ridiculous "sliding scale" for determining the passage of time in the Marvel Universe... I don't like them, but they are necessary devices to keep the illusion of "change without any real change" that's central to the practice of writing non-finite serial fiction).
It's certainly possible to have characters implicitly develop, mature, and change permanently over the length of a story or multiple successive stories without explicitly aging them (or alternatively, without exposing the absurdity of the progression of time in comics).
General Hospital does it successfully all the time (and without the benefit of things like extra-dimensional demons or Superboy continuity punches), and it's been running continuously (first on radio, and later on television) for far longer than any Spider-Man comic book (and I'm impressed at how well their writers have managed to satisfy the soap opera continuity geeks, who are probably even more obsessive than comic book fans when it comes to these things), so I don't know why we see comic book writers painting themselves into a corner time and time again (and having to come up with unsatisfying ways to extricate themselves) when it comes to their characters' ages and temporal setting.
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
What did MJ offered to Mephisto? Her soul?[/spoiler]
[spoiler]
Quote from: bat1987 on December 30, 2007, 01:15:12 AM
Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
What did MJ offered to Mephisto? Her soul?
I don't think it's been revealed. Although if I'm Mephisto, I know what I would want :lol:
[/spoiler]
Someone's dirty. :P
[spoiler]Other than her marriage and her possible child(ren) [IE: Spider-girl/May Parker and some other girl who may or may not be the main universe's May Parker], it wasn't revealed. Though, if MJ turns out to be Jackpot, it may have something to do with that.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Previsionary on December 29, 2007, 11:01:08 PM
Also, JMS has gone on record saying this is pretty much all Joey's idea (and it's been no real secret that he and others have hated the marriage [and MJ] for quite the longest time putting Gwen ahead of her):
Where did you find that quote from JMS? Link to the original please?
-MJB
JMS's blog archive (http://www.jmsnews.net/msg.aspx?id=1-17697) --very bottom post
Just to add more:
Interview with Joey Q (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12664)
WACKER Interview (http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=12559)
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on December 29, 2007, 04:58:26 PM
[spoiler]
peter and mary never even dating? screw up so many things it's mind boggling[/spoiler]
ahh fair enough i mis read you as saying you thought that this event should not be reconned :) and i agree with you 110%
I'm pretty much indifferent to the marriage... a good writer can tell interesting stories about a married Spidey or an unmarried Spidey. Those of you who are married: Did your life become completely free of drama and complications once you tied the knot? Didn't think so. ;) Having MJ be a rich 'n famous supermodel was a dumb idea, because it took Spidey too far away from the central concept of being an "average joe". But otherwise, keep 'em together, break 'em up, whatever, just make it interesting.
Having Spidey deal with a death or divorce would be meaningful, and dramatic, and fit in nicely with the soap-opera tradition of the series. But this mystical retcon stuff? Completely out of tune with the style and themes of Spider-Man, and as others have pointed out, it creates huge continuity problems throughout the Marvel line. Did they learn nothing from DC's Crisis? In fact, it's so catastrophically dumb, that I have to wonder it it isn't intended to be just some short-term stunt, ala "Age of Apocalypse".
[spoiler]
My main problem with this is how selfish it makes Peter - he basically is trading his wife's happiness to extend Aunt May's life a little longer (seriously, that woman must be about a thousand by now) and assuage his guilt over the situation surrounding her getting shot. He doesn't remember, so his actions here - sacrificing his marriage - effectively don't bother him.
Retconning so much of Spider-man's history is going to be a nightmare to keep track of, and rubbing out something as recent as his unmasking in Civil War is just depressing. They don't have the editorial cajones to stick with a controversial decision from what - a year ago? I can only hope this controversial decision lasts as long.
I've never even been a huge fan of MJ, or Spider-man's relationship with her - she doesn't seem like a good match for Peter; beside her being hot, what does she have going for her & what do she & Pete have in common (I like that Ultimate Spidey, her character has been significantly revamped to be a little more in-sync with Peter)?
[/spoiler]
Quote from: Talavar on December 30, 2007, 09:30:17 AM
[spoiler]
My main problem with this is how selfish it makes Peter - he basically is trading his wife's happiness to extend Aunt May's life a little longer (seriously, that woman must be about a thousand by now) and assuage his guilt over the situation surrounding her getting shot. He doesn't remember, so his actions here - sacrificing his marriage - effectively don't bother him.
Retconning so much of Spider-man's history is going to be a nightmare to keep track of, and rubbing out something as recent as his unmasking in Civil War is just depressing. They don't have the editorial cajones to stick with a controversial decision from what - a year ago? I can only hope this controversial decision lasts as long.
I've never even been a huge fan of MJ, or Spider-man's relationship with her - she doesn't seem like a good match for Peter; beside her being hot, what does she have going for her & what do she & Pete have in common (I like that Ultimate Spidey, her character has been significantly revamped to be a little more in-sync with Peter)?
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]see thats where i differ from a lot a of spidey fans, i despised gwen found her boring and too cookie cutter the perfect little woman type :rolleyes:, where as mj i felt was perfect for peter. she had multi layer personality with the whole party girl outside with the dark troubled inside. the point that she was hot to me was another layer to the underdog story peter had. no matter what happened he fought and got what he wanted in the end[/spoiler]
Quote from: bat1987 on December 30, 2007, 01:15:12 AM
[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
[/spoiler]
That problem was taken care of in Avengers the Initiative #7 for the most part though.
One thing that I need answered is when does this story take place in comparison to the other stories Peter (or his rogue gallery) takes part in. If Green Goblin (Norman) and Venom (Scorpion) are still in thunderbolts, as shown by previews; Eddie is still suffering from cancer in the hospital May was in, and peter is in his black costume in New Avengers...then the core book is looking more and more out of continuity.
Also this pic of wolverine/spidey (http://comicsmedia.ign.com/comics/image/article/840/840731/amazing-spider-man-20071211093514899.jpg) seems to show wolverine in his astonishing costume or some variation of it. Unless it's an artist error, I'm pretty sure wolverine didn't have that costume 15-20 years ago.
So, with all that in mind, I have just convinced myself that Mephisto (who has some sort of fluctuation with his powers, but he's never been shown to be able to affect entire timelines) trapped peter and MJ in some sort of complex illusion, trapped them in a dream, or sent them to another timelime.
Quote from: Podmark on December 30, 2007, 11:22:04 AM
Quote from: bat1987 on December 30, 2007, 01:15:12 AM
[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
[/spoiler]
That problem was taken care of in Avengers the Initiative #7 for the most part though.
Oh, how so? spoiler me, please :)
Quote from: Protomorph on December 30, 2007, 09:40:06 PM
Quote from: Podmark on December 30, 2007, 11:22:04 AM
Quote from: bat1987 on December 30, 2007, 01:15:12 AM
[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
[/spoiler]
That problem was taken care of in Avengers the Initiative #7 for the most part though.
Oh, how so? spoiler me, please :)
My understanding was that Peter met up with the 3 Scarlet Spider's from that book who he helped take down some villains and they revealed him as part of some plan by Tony Stark to create his own Spider-Men to the media. The end result was that people now weren't certain Peter was really the real Spider-Man.
Feh. The Peter Parker I've been reading for more than 20 years would never make a deal with Mephisto. Ridiculous.
So what have they accomplished? They've set spider-man back in the seventies, with his old cast of characters from the seventies, so he can have adventures just like when he was in the seventies.
If I wanted to read stories like this, I could . In essential spider-man, reprinted from the seventies. I've no desire whatsoever to read reahashed tales from Joephisto's glory days of comics.
Haven't been following any of this... and boy am I glad. If I'd been paying Marvel to do stupid stuff like that, I'd really be ticked off.
Quote from: the_ultimate_evil on December 30, 2007, 09:52:42 AM
Quote from: Talavar on December 30, 2007, 09:30:17 AM
[spoiler]
My main problem with this is how selfish it makes Peter - he basically is trading his wife's happiness to extend Aunt May's life a little longer (seriously, that woman must be about a thousand by now) and assuage his guilt over the situation surrounding her getting shot. He doesn't remember, so his actions here - sacrificing his marriage - effectively don't bother him.
Retconning so much of Spider-man's history is going to be a nightmare to keep track of, and rubbing out something as recent as his unmasking in Civil War is just depressing. They don't have the editorial cajones to stick with a controversial decision from what - a year ago? I can only hope this controversial decision lasts as long.
I've never even been a huge fan of MJ, or Spider-man's relationship with her - she doesn't seem like a good match for Peter; beside her being hot, what does she have going for her & what do she & Pete have in common (I like that Ultimate Spidey, her character has been significantly revamped to be a little more in-sync with Peter)?
[/spoiler]
[spoiler]see thats where i differ from a lot a of spidey fans, i despised gwen found her boring and too cookie cutter the perfect little woman type :rolleyes:, where as mj i felt was perfect for peter. she had multi layer personality with the whole party girl outside with the dark troubled inside. the point that she was hot to me was another layer to the underdog story peter had. no matter what happened he fought and got what he wanted in the end[/spoiler]
Oh, I wasn't saying I preferred Gwen Stacy. Neither of them really seem like that good of a fit for Peter.
If I hadn't already dropped 99% of my Marvel books because of the severe mishandling of Civil War, this insanity would be enough to make me drop them. I think it's completely and utterly wrong, what they've done over the past few years, and the fact that it seems to have caused sales to explode upward makes me feel old, out of touch, and very very bitter.
Ditto.
Same here.
Quote from: bredon7777 on December 31, 2007, 01:21:02 PM
If I hadn't already dropped 99% of my Marvel books because of the severe mishandling of Civil War, this insanity would be enough to make me drop them. I think it's completely and utterly wrong, what they've done over the past few years, and the fact that it seems to have caused sales to explode upward makes me feel old, out of touch, and very very bitter.
Wow ... in two sentences you managed to describe perfectly my reaction to most comics today.
Thanks!
I guess for us new old timers it may be time to bow out and let the new gen take over. After all if we really want a good Marvel story we have only to dip into our archives.
Eh, Marvel still puts out a few good books - generally the ones that fly under the radar for whatever reason - and the X-books are better than they've been in years*.
*Disclaimer: this statement is dependent on the outcome of the current crossover.
I'm not a Spider-man fan, but this to me just sounds like another in a long line of horrible EiC decisions by Joe Q...All the man seems to be able to do is cause controversy, just to get huge comic sales. Why can't he direct the characters with a bit more respect and make sure they're written well?
A lot of the things that this terrible wretch-con is erasing, Joe is to blame for letting happen (The Spider Totem stuff, Loose Gwen Stacy and her twin kids, the identity reveal, etc...)...He made bad decisions and he's making more to try and correct them. Peter Parker making deals with a demon to save a woman (Aunt May) he should just let go. Let the woman die, Marvel and move on.
I thought killing Steve Rogers was horrible (it still is)...This is worse.
Dana
Writer Steven Grant (
Punisher, Legends of The Dark Knight, X-Man) had this interesting take on the whole One More Day/Brand New Day thing, as detailed in this thread (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=203163):
Quote from: Steven GrantIn any case, doing a deal with the devil... that's something future storytellers can just blow off and never mention if they choose, unless it leaves Spider-Man radically transformed, and then they have to reverse it somehow. Personally, given the Civil War circumstances, I'd have preferred to see a long storyline where Peter, left with no other options, cuts a deal with Tony Stark where May and Mary Jane are given new identities and sent off to safety where they don't have to live under threat of revenge from old Spidey villains, while Peter basically sells himself for their sakes to an authority whose righteousness he's incapable of acknowledging, with the soulcrushing knowledge that his "masters" do know where his loved ones are at all times. It'd be interesting to see how long they could go without having Stark or some stand-in threaten harm to wife and aunt when Spider-Man doesn't obey orders they believe are good. Not that I think it's a storyline that would easily sustain... how many Spider-Man books are they selling these days?
Brand New Day preview pages. (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=343976793)
Spider-Man. The George Costanza of the superhero world.
The page with Aunt May waking up Peter and urging him to go get a job is just messed up...This is not a man who is capable, independent and able to have a stable relationship. This just screams loser to me...Peter Parker should not be a loser...Should he have money problems?...Yes. Should he have arguments with his wife?...Sure. Should he have trouble with his students as a teacher?...Heck yes.
I know he loves his aunt, but the "living with her, having her cook and clean for him is many, many steps backward for the characters (yes...For Aunt May too).
Dana
As far as I'm concerned, Mephisto put Pete in a coma, and all the adventures within this brand new day nonsense are taking place entirely inside his head.
I'll vote for that, bredon.
It has to be a dream.
Quote from: UnfluffyBunny on December 29, 2007, 04:58:26 PM
[spoiler]
peter and mary never even dating? screw up so many things it's mind boggling[/spoiler]
Yeah! Exactly!!! Just like that! He and MJ never were together at all!!! That's absurd!!! And as I've said before...just really crappy writing!
Just make mine... Anything but Marvel...
I read the status quo page, apparently Marvel has just rebooted back to the 70s or something. That is quite lame. However I do believe that the ongoing book could very well be good, it's just built on one hugely crappy retcon.
From what JQ reports, everything that's happened when Pete was married still happened...somehow. Basically no continuity was changed except harry being back and spidey's identity was erased from people's minds. Obviously that makes all kinds of sense. It doesn't contradict his other goals at all. All of you stop thinking about it. It's magic (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756), now leave it alone.
Quote from: BlueBard on January 07, 2008, 11:36:14 AM
Just make mine... Anything but Marvel...
Quote from: Panther_Gunn on January 07, 2008, 11:52:37 AM
Quote from: BlueBard on January 07, 2008, 11:36:14 AM
Just make mine... Anything but Marvel...
'Nuff Said!
Comments like this confuse me. Did you guys previously buy spider-man prior to this? Did this convince you not to return to marvel despite them having other better books? Do you not see this as on the same level as a superboy continuity punch or one of DC's many crises? *shrugs*
I used to buy Marvel. If I bought Marvel at all anymore, Spider-Man titles would be what I'd buy.
But why should I pay for 'stupid'? Or 'offensive'? Or 'senseless retcon'? Certain previous Spidey story arcs have pretty much soured me on even buying Spidey titles.
I don't have any real comment on DC's reboots because by and large I never collected DC, never read DC on a regular basis, and aside from the main lineup of the JL never much cared about DC. I will say that I read some of the 'Superman Blue/Red' and had a similar, if more subdued, reaction. As in, "This ain't Superman".
And likewise, "This ain't Peter Parker". They're mucking with the history of a beloved character in a really pointless (even offensive) way and I reserve the right to be disgusted with it. I invite everyone who likes the changes to ignore me completely. As long as the newspaper comic continues to print the Spider-Man I know and love, Marvel can do whatever the heck they like with that other guy.
I know I'll probably be drawn and quartered for saying this, but I'm okay with it. <ducks>
Now before you all start yelling at why I'm wrong, please remember that (a) it's only my opinion and I'm not asking you to change yours, and (b) no amount of posting will get me to change mine, so don't bother. Now let me explain my thinking - and much of what I initially thought was supported by Joe Q's own logic in his recent interviews:
- Pete's marriage to MJ did indeed paint some stories into a corner, and fundamentally changed the core of his character. He was no longer the lovable hard-luck hero, he was a guy married to a super-model.
- The marriage was a marketing decision, not a storyline driven one. For the most part (and I admit to only reading Spidey sporadically over the years), few if any of the stories written since the wedding couldn't have been written without the marriage - but the fact that he was married could limit other stories.
- In some ways, the idea that Pete lives with Aunt May and has problems getting a job, due to his wall-crawling activities is very much in line with his core...his responsibilities as Spider-man have prevented him from the luxuries that others take for granted.
- I don't care how Harry came back...I'm glad he is.
As for the implementation of the story itself, folks are posting things that seem to be inaccurate. Agree or disagree with the decision, at least argue from fact:
[spoiler]- Some have stated that Pete and MJ never dated: the real story is that they dated, but Mephisto changed history so that something interfered with the marriage. Virtually all of the other events leading up to the wedding still "occurred" (for the continuity-conscious).[/spoiler]
I like this quote best so far: "Marvel should sell their soul to Mephisto to make sure that no one remembers this."
(http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=141756&page=2)
Quote from: Bujin on January 07, 2008, 01:48:24 PM
- I don't care how Harry came back...I'm glad he is.
I don't think anyone would care if Harry was back if this was truly an alternate dimension or if it was actually explained off in the book or BND (which Joe said they would be ignoring OMD for awhile so I don't count on that happening), with him just appearing with a new girlfriend just hurts his death story. Kinda like regressing Peter so far back to deal with stuff he's already been through hurts him (I'm ignoring him kissing some random girl until I get details on that).
Ironically enough:
[spoiler]616 Harry was reborn and ultimate harry *died* on the same day.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Bujin on January 07, 2008, 01:48:24 PM
[spoiler]- Some have stated that Pete and MJ never dated: the real story is that they dated, but Mephisto changed history so that something interfered with the marriage. Virtually all of the other events leading up to the wedding still "occurred" (for the continuity-conscious).[/spoiler]
I kinda pointed that out above. Regardless, when those comments were posted, no one had a reason to believe otherwise. That was just cleared up
recently and it wasn't acknowledged in the book yet beyond the "icy" comment so, that can change at any time.
Bujin, as some have said (myself included), the problem isn't that the marriage was ended, but how. The story-mechanic of a literal deal with the devil is pretty off-putting to many readers, again, myself included.
Now, there seems to be a fair bit of positive buzz about the creative team behind 'Brand New Day,' but I won't be reading. I don't particularly care if that storyline goes on to be the Shakespeare of Spider-man stories, I can only express my displeasure with Marvel's editorial decisions by withholding my money, so that's what I'll be doing.
I was very interested in BND. I wasn't going to jump abroad immediately but I had planned to keep a close eye on it. I really feel that having 3 issues a month would make for some great reading, assuming the creators are up to it. And I was pretty excited about the artists involved like Jimenez McNiven, and Bachalo. However OMD really hurt my interest.
Quote from: Previsionary on January 07, 2008, 12:56:53 PM
Did you guys previously buy spider-man prior to this? Did this convince you not to return to marvel despite them having other better books? Do you not see this as on the same level as a superboy continuity punch or one of DC's many crises? *shrugs*
I haven't regularly bought comics since mid-'91, and for the most part, from what I've seen & heard about, I think I got out of the game just in time (perhaps even a bit later than I should have). When I collected, I purchased huge amounts of both companies regularly, and would branch out into other titles for a year or so due to crossovers/summer events/favorite artist, etc. Way back when, while I was still in school, when I couldn't afford to get as much as I'd like, my Marvel buying started out with Fantastic Four and Spider-Man (both titles, with only occasional issues of Marvel Team-Up). From watching the old cartoon (Spider-Man, Spider-Man, does whatever a spider can) and picking up the storyline in the comics from back then, Pete has always been one of my Marvel faves. When he finally hooked & married MJ, I thought that was the best thing that could happen to him. He's not a philanderer like Stark, or using the Playboy cover, like Bruce, he's a normal guy, that wants things all of us want, so having him go through all these girls over the years was making things look worse & worse for him. Most of us *want* the hero to get the girl, and I can think of easy ways off the top of my head to keep it interesting while still keeping him married.
A civil suit wipes out MJ's savings (or a hacker, or identity theft, etc, etc), and she ends up getting blacklisted from modeling and acting (it does happen). They have to move back in with Aunt May until things pick up. Not having a good, steady job is again an issue for Pete, without rebooting his entire life after high school. Why would I want to read about a character that *had* moved on, only to be put back at square 1 through some contrived storyline, and just stagnate there? The clone saga, the spider god ( :blink:), fallout from Civil War, the delving into the darker side of Pete (as seen in the savage beating I read through him giving Kingpin recently), and making a deal with Mephisto to "go back to the way things were", frankly, makes me overjoyed that I no longer buy comics.
And, no, I don't think it's any better or worse than the whole Superboy Prime fiasco, nor, I think it was called Identity Crisis, where a retcon had the JLA essentially brainwashing & partially lobotomizing some of it's foes. That's a kind of sour taste that just doesn't go away any time soon.
Quote from: Bujin on January 07, 2008, 01:48:24 PM
I know I'll probably be drawn and quartered for saying this, but I'm okay with it. <ducks>
*shoves a pumpkin bomb down Buj's shorts*
Quote from: Talavar on January 07, 2008, 02:16:02 PM
Bujin, as some have said (myself included), the problem isn't that the marriage was ended, but how. The story-mechanic of a literal deal with the devil is pretty off-putting to many readers, again, myself included.
Now, there seems to be a fair bit of positive buzz about the creative team behind 'Brand New Day,' but I won't be reading. I don't particularly care if that storyline goes on to be the Shakespeare of Spider-man stories, I can only express my displeasure with Marvel's editorial decisions by withholding my money, so that's what I'll be doing.
And, as much as I understand that, I truly believe that the reaction would have been the same with most readers no matter what the specifics of the story were. For many folks (and I'm not pointing to you or anyone specifically on this thread), the simple fact that they've changed the almighty
continuity is heresy.
As I indicated above, I really have no interest in defending a position here. There's nothing to be gained by that, so I'll leave my opinion there, and simply predict that, in a year, folks will have adjusted (as they did after the uproar regarding the Clone Wars, Gwen's twins, organic webshooters, etc.), and most will still buy Spidey comics.
Bujin,
I respect your opinion and all, but most people would've respected a divorce or some other logical story; at the very least, there wouldn't be this huge uproar of negativity, fan division, and threats of quitting a book/company. Yes, there would be complainers because there's always someone around to complain about something, but this story was just wrong in so many ways. Joe isn't even trying to really hold on to old readers, he's all about new readers and he's made it clear he's willing to take the flak and push old readers out the door for his goals. Most of the arguments and disagreements isn't even about the story anymore and it's solely focused on Joe and his decision making skills. He even said that Peter kissing anon. girl on the first page of BND was a "slap in the face" for long time readers or something like that and what do you think the fan reaction was? Exactly. It's not just the story because people aren't even focusing on it anyway. The whole arc, people just focused on one single aspect--the marriage becoming undone by Marvel's Satan/devil. And you know, I can't take a [married] man seriously that's willing to mandate undoing a marriage using magic (ignoring that it was mandated initially. That's not an issue in today's period and it's also not really relevant as it could've been undone years ago if someone wanted to make a good story about it), but at the same time, mandate a marriage between Storm and Black Panther which also didn't make sense and isn't even working out to his advantage.
But anyway, people still complain about the clone wars, believe it or not, and now with JMS's interview about Gwen and the twins, it's back in the front line. Sure, people will adjust eventually, but they also have a right to share their opinion because we, as readers, do have the ultimate power in what sells and such. Though, if you stopped reading a long time ago and don't plan on, or even consider, returning to marvel's lower revenue sales, then you kinda used your power and moved on a long time ago...so complaining now seems sorta futile, no?
Quote from: Previsionary on January 09, 2008, 06:48:25 AM
Though, if you stopped reading a long time ago and don't plan on, or even consider, returning to marvel's lower revenue sales, then you kinda used your power and moved on a long time ago...so complaining now seems sorta futile, no?
Obviously, you don't know the old saying about a happy sailor. ;)
A couple of pennies:
I see one flaw in Marvel/ Joe Q's logic: I can see that since the marriage, the hard-luck nature of the Spider-Man has been reduced if not nullified. It does stand to reason that removing the marriage would then allow that aspect of the character to beused with, for lack of a better word, authenticity. After all, how hard luck can a character be if he is married to a success supermodel/actress? Here's the flaw: if the point was to return the character to this track, the story as written completely negates the notion of Peter's hard luck. In original continuity, Peter's hard luck was essentiall bad things, beyond Peter's control, happening to a good person. In revised continuity, anything bad that happens to Peter is not a matter of luck, bad or otherwise, but choice and fate. He CHOSE to make a deal with a devil. He CHOSE the kind of life he would lead. If bad things happen to him in the course of that life thereafter, well tough noogies. If you don't like the life you're leading, you shouldn't have made that deal with a devil.
The hard luck nature of Peter was to create sympathy for the character in the reader. This decision, in sophistcated readers, should act to prevent such feelings. Who will you feel more sympathy for the person who got in a car accident because of a patch of ice in the road, or who got into an accident because he was driving while intoxicated?
Ah...So is Peter some kind of masochist?
Quote from: Previsionary on January 09, 2008, 06:48:25 AM
Bujin,
I respect your opinion and all, but most people would've respected a divorce or some other logical story; at the very least, there wouldn't be this huge uproar of negativity, fan division, and threats of quitting a book/company. Yes, there would be complainers because there's always someone around to complain about something, but this story was just wrong in so many ways. Joe isn't even trying to really hold on to old readers, he's all about new readers and he's made it clear he's willing to take the flak and push old readers out the door for his goals. Most of the arguments and disagreements isn't even about the story anymore and it's solely focused on Joe and his decision making skills. He even said that Peter kissing anon. girl on the first page of BND was a "slap in the face" for long time readers or something like that and what do you think the fan reaction was? Exactly. It's not just the story because people aren't even focusing on it anyway. The whole arc, people just focused on one single aspect--the marriage becoming undone by Marvel's Satan/devil. And you know, I can't take a [married] man seriously that's willing to mandate undoing a marriage using magic (ignoring that it was mandated initially. That's not an issue in today's period and it's also not really relevant as it could've been undone years ago if someone wanted to make a good story about it), but at the same time, mandate a marriage between Storm and Black Panther which also didn't make sense and isn't even working out to his advantage.
Good points...
Marrying Storm to the Black Panther was an incredibly stupid/odd move IMHO...I'm sure we'll be seeing that disolved before too long (Spoilers:probably one of them is a Skrull and has been for the whole marriage). JoeQ made this decision and it's no better than what was done to over twenty years ago to Spider-Man (for those who feel his marriage was a mistake, that is).
Joe just needs to stop making these half-assed and half-thought-out decisions...So he doesn't have to come up with half-assed ideas on how to be rid of them.
Joe isn't responsible for the Spidey marriage, but he is responsible for Spidey's organic web-shooters, the Stacy/Osborne affair/twins resulting form that affair, the Spider-Avatar crap and bunch more.
Will he dissolve the FF Richards' marriage next and de-age them (getting rid of Franklin in the process) just to make Reed and Sue more easily accessible to newer readers?
I wonder how far he plans taking this effort to rid Marvel of it's longtime readers?
Dana
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, and everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I don't get all this outrage from people who claim that so-and-so is 'ruining' whichever character/book, and then exclaim in the same breath that "I'm sure glad I don't read [insert title/company] anymore." Lots of hullabaloo over a book you don't even read... :rolleyes: People always get upset whenever the status quo is changed, but it doesn't really change
forever. Case in point: "NOT LIKE THIS!!" 2 months later, Clint's back. Steve Rogers will be back too, as soon as the movie is ready to come out.
The only person I'll ask directly is Prev: and I'm just curious - not being antagonistic:
QuoteJoe isn't even trying to really hold on to old readers, he's all about new readers and he's made it clear he's willing to take the flak and push old readers out the door for his goals.
When/where did that happen? He
said that?
Anyway, when I read the whole 'Other' Spider-avatar nonsense, which was supposed to 'change Spidey as we know him
forever!" I rolled my eyes, 'cause 'forever' lasts about as long as it takes someone to come up with the 'Next Big Thing'. And really, what did they keep from that, besides the organic webshooters? No one ever mentions the Spider-Twins, or whatever they're called (other than JMS, and only recently), and we all got over it. It's all hype - they should have called it "One More
Dollar", 'cause it's really about the Benjamins. All these 'Infinite Civil Crisises Dissasembled' are. I see everything (including 'registration') being undone in the end by the 'Skrull Invasion' anyway, then we can all argue about who's really a Skrull.
When I read OMD I thought 'here we go again', but now having picked up and
actually read BND, I admit I'm intrigued. You know, I never realized how much I missed Harry 'til he came back! And if being on the run for being 'unregistered', having your aunt shot because you 'outed' yourself, and having to make a deal with the devil himself isn't 'hard luck', I don't know what is! I'll give it a shot, just because I know that in the end Pete and MJ will somehow get back together, Mephisto will be foiled, May
will die and Pam will wake up and find Bobby Ewing in the shower. :P
Quote from: Dartman X on January 11, 2008, 10:34:44 AM
The only person I'll ask directly is Prev: and I'm just curious - not being antagonistic:
QuoteJoe isn't even trying to really hold on to old readers, he's all about new readers and he's made it clear he's willing to take the flak and push old readers out the door for his goals.
When/where did that happen? He said that?
No, he did not come out and directly say that. He may be somewhat arrogant, but I don't think he'd be dumb enough to say something like that. Just look at any interview by Q and he'll probably be talking about the NEXT generation. While that's nice and all, the next generation does not fund comic books right now. It's existing fans and some of his decisions in the past few years have been pushing them away with the current spidey drama being the biggest contributer as of today. BND, as stated by himself and others, is just a nice jumping on point for new readers without the continuity issues of stories that happened 20, 10, 5, 2, or even 1 year ago...heck, even weeks ago as everything seems to be open or undone.
Examples:
Quote from: Q"Ultimately we have to do this to keep this character fresh for this generation and generations to come."
First BND story= giant rehash of some classic spidey elements...not exactly fresh, BUT, it's fresh for new readers who've never seen or heard of the stories BND borrows from.
Quote from: Q"A married Peter Parker makes for a less interesting soap opera than a single Peter Parker going about his nerdy kind of life."
I, on the other hand, got tired of all the women he courted and moved on from as the females usually ended up becoming extremely flat kinda like Gwen. And now knowing that nothing will come from his hookups is kinda a turnoff for me. A new reader probably would not mind since they wouldn't have the background knowledge.
Quote from: Q"Looking into the future, this is really the right thing to do for the long-term health of the character."
Yes, it's always a good idea to cause a stir in the fan base and risk a loss of sales to justify your ideas. Considering that this story was supposedly in the works for 2 years(during the time of spidey's unmasking...so any claims by marvel to keep that intact back then kinda contradicts what's been said now), I just question why it wasn't fine tuned and more thought out. I'm all for healthiness of characters, but their way of doing it just didn't sit well with me. Of course, one of the bigger complaints was that spidey was becoming too dark and he lost his supporting cast, but he was gradually getting them back (flash, betty, school kids, ms. arrow) and only 1-2 books were all that dark because they chose to write dark stories based on May's year long coma.
Quote from: D. SlottSpider-Man's whole life is open to us. There are no shut doors. But the most interesting moment in time is always going to be right now! And from where we pick Pete up in #546 to where he goes from here on out-- is gonna be a great ride! And with the stuff we've got planned, and this crazy (boy-we-gotta-work-insane-hours-to-pull-it-off) thrice weekly schedule we're doing-- that ride is gonna come at you fast!
Again, this just supports the "risking old readers to gain new, younger readers" theory. Though, I don't know how many readers they'll pick up with 3 books a month all priced at $2.99 (first issue = $3.99)
Quote from: Q"The first page [of BND] is a real shocker and it's done on purpose. It's a bit of a slap of reality to longtime readers[...]"
Quote from: NY post/BNDIn the first bachelor issue, which comes out Wednesday, the "modern Peter Parker" shows off some of his new attitude, telling his mysteriously back from the dead and now thrice divorced best friend Harry Osborn "I'm too young to get married."
A reference to past continuity (which the creators keep telling old readers to forget) and a slap of reality to anyone that might have liked MJ/Pete...hrm. Obviously new readers wouldn't care as much, old readers would especially considering the last event in Pete's previous life.
so yeah, those are just some examples from several interviews the spidey crew + Joe Q have been spreading around the net [there's many]. Oddly enough, everyone [at marvel] seems in favor of it regardless of the problem it presents and how some of their own stories are altered/erased. So yes, BND (excluding OMD) is a giant jumping on point for new readers, while slightly insulting to old readers since now some old plot points won't be touched upon for a good amount of time.
Sources:
USA TodayNY PostDan Slott interview*note* I didn't pick the best of examples, but hey, this was done in like 10 minutes. Cut me a break.
Quote from: Previsionary on January 11, 2008, 12:09:07 PMOddly enough, everyone [at marvel] seems in favor of it regardless of the problem it presents and how some of their own stories are altered/erased.
This could well be due to an edict from up on high by Joe Q (I *still* think I should have pummeled him with a chair at the Con I saw him at earlier this year), ordering them to "sell it like you own it", basically telling them to act like they're on board with the decision, unless they want some punitive repurcussions.
Mmmmmm...Skrully wheatcakes...Think about it.
Dana :thumbup:
:lol: after reading the thread and seeing you being the last one posting Dana I really thought it was going to be a comment like that.
OMG They are making Mary Jane into a superhero named "Jackpot"! :doh:
Read #4 and look at the picture of Jackpot. Plus it's an obvious ref to her first words to Peter. (http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Spider-Office/entry/1001.The_Top_5_Reasons_to_Read_Brand_New_Day%21?)
I'm hoping there's a serious backlash to this, sales on the Spider books tank very quickly, and it leads to OMD being undone and Quesada either being reigned in by the higher ups so he can't pull off garbage like this again or outright fired.
Joe Q I've always thought was a decent artist and an acceptable (ie, not good but not bad, either) writer, but he's easily the worst EIC Marvel has had.
And before anyone chimes in with "no, Bill Jemas was worse", let me just say "Wrong. Jemas was an outsider who ended up in the business and possibly a fanboy who didn't really have a clue what he was doing. Joe Q is an established comics professional and apparent mega fanboy and should know better."
The ONLY things that needed fixing were Peter's identity being made public (and that was apparently sort of handled already in New Avengers, I think?) and Sins Past being undone. The totem thing is easily ignored, and any idiot could undo Sins Past (ie, the kids are either clones (yeah, right - the stink from the Clone Saga still hasn't faded enough for Marvel to go there) or were created in a test tube using DNA purloined from Gwen when she was still alive (sort of how DC explained Damien in Batman #666) and Norman lied about the affair with Gwen to further torment Peter).
The thread about OMD over at Byrne Robotics is already up to 30 pages, and I think maybe only one or two posters have said anything good about. John Byrne (but his opinion doesn't count to some fans, since they seem to think he's Satan), Howard Mackie and Glenn Greenberg have all made negative comments about it; mostly geared toward how it involves heroic characters making a deal with the devil, but also about how it pretty much screws up 20+ years of continuity. (Glenn Greenberg worked on Spider-Man during the Clone Saga, so if he says this stuff stinks!.....)
From Rich Johnston's Lying In the Gutters:
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8554/mephisto1600rg2.jpg)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/3906/mephisto2600nz9.jpg)
Quote from: Ajax on January 13, 2008, 08:26:02 PM
OMG They are making Mary Jane into a superhero named "Jackpot"! :doh:
Read #4 and look at the picture of Jackpot. Plus it's an obvious ref to her first words to Peter. (http://www.marvel.com/blogs/Spider-Office/entry/1001.The_Top_5_Reasons_to_Read_Brand_New_Day%21?)
Hey, I think it's pretty cool to have Mary Jane as Jackpot. I'm really curious about her powers and abilities. :P
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jackpot_(Marvel_Comics)
And it would seem from Zulu's comic strip that Mephisto really likes this whole divorce thing. :lol:
I like Dan Slott.
I liked reading the first issue.
I like that organic webshooters are gone, and his publicly known identity gone.
But everything else I'm not keen on.
Now, I stopped expecting a stable, coherent continuity in Marvel comics back around Avengers Disassembled, (and it's loss isn't the end of the world, just confusing).
But I really cannot understand the "new reality".
What happened in Civil War? Who's side was Peter on? How does him not being married to MJ make Aunt May NOT get shot? If Mephisto can wave a hand and remake reality for the whole world, what does that say about God in the marvel Universe? How are we, the reader, supposed to know what has happened and what has not? Who is dead and who alive? What is the point of reading any given comic if tomorrow Wanda or Mephisto can make it not have happened?
Back in the sixties and seventies, Marvel fans derided DC comics for it's lack of continuity and "imaginary" stories, and DC's mind boggling, impossible-to-understand universe. Strange how things have turned around. Now Marvel should have "not a dream, not a hoax, not an imaginary story" plastered over most of its comics...
Quote from: tommyboy on January 16, 2008, 09:58:44 AM
But I really cannot understand the "new reality".
What happened in Civil War? Who's side was Peter on? How does him not being married to MJ make Aunt May NOT get shot? If Mephisto can wave a hand and remake reality for the whole world, what does that say about God in the marvel Universe? How are we, the reader, supposed to know what has happened and what has not? Who is dead and who alive? What is the point of reading any given comic if tomorrow Wanda or Mephisto can make it not have happened?
Back in the sixties and seventies, Marvel fans derided DC comics for it's lack of continuity and "imaginary" stories, and DC's mind boggling, impossible-to-understand universe. Strange how things have turned around. Now Marvel should have "not a dream, not a hoax, not an imaginary story" plastered over most of its comics...
Yeah, the "wave of Mephisto's hand" has the potential to become the kind of industry joke that the "Superboy-Prime retcon punch" was a year ago. Maybe Marvel and DC can have a crossover where Superboy- >excuse me< Superman-Prime (was the name change explained away as a retcon punch too? Did Superboy-Prime punch his way into Superman-hood?) and Mephisto high five each other and cause all time and space to collapse in on itself :P
Still, I'm not so much bothered by the decision to have Mephisto magic away the marriage as I was by the execution of it on paper (I didn't really care about the Spidey cast status quo one way or another). It was about as excessively melodramatic as you can get in a genre built on melodrama. I mean check out this particular steaming nugget, where Mephisto explains why he's so hell-bent (ha ha) on the conditions of the deal being the break-up of Peter and MJ's marriage:
"It's because yours is the rarest love of all. Pure, unconditional and made holy in the eyes of He who I hate most. A love like yours comes about but once in a millennia and to take that away from Him...to deny Him...is a victory like none other imaginable."So let me get this straight: Mephisto has the power to go back in time and change history, and the best thing he can come up with to spite (a) God is to break-up somebody's marriage? And if the love being "made holy in the eyes of He who I hate most" was such a big deal, couldn't he have settled for a church-approved annulment of their vows instead of going through all the trouble of changing the fabric of reality? Also, didn't Marvel go to great pains in the past few years to distance Mephisto away from the Judeo-Christian devil? Isn't the official line now is that he's supposed to be an extra-dimensional being who just happens to rule a realm that bears an uncanny similarity to the Christian concept of hell? So how come he's suddenly all about getting back at God?
Of course, all those complaints about the story's resolution would have been rendered largely irrelevant if the writing was good (I was actually interested in seeing how they'd pull it off, and giving the creative team every benefit of the doubt), but as it was, the dialogue was just laughably bad. The art was great, though, Quesada really went crazy with the detail... I'd love to see him on a crime/noir book.
Unlike a few of you, I've never seen Joe as a great or even good writer, but I haven't read much by him either. I just see him as an artist that has made some good decisions as EiC, but it's being overshadowed by all the bad stuff he's done in the past 3-4 years and his attitude towards fans in general.
Anyway, Brand New Day isn't looking all that great to me:
[spoiler]
- Opening page, Jonah and Peter kissing. No, I'm kidding. It's only cpr with a detailed note about how Jonah *tastes*...like cigars and coffee, you dirty people.
- Peter's old guilt with may is instantly replaced with new guilt for giving Jonah a heart attack. Yay, newness!
- Not only is that guilt replaced, it's doubled. He feels guilty for letting the spidey-mugger escape with his wallet and mechanical web shooter (which the mugger uses for his crimes later on).
- Speaking of wallet, the mugger makes a note about stealing the wallet from "spider-man" and he can learn his identity by opening the wallet. An identity tease...already?
- Reference to Swing shift (by Dan slott. I believe it came out on free comic book day) and ASM 68-75 [what a large jump between new continuity and old...]. IMO, that kinda eliminates the purpose of making it new reader friendly if they have to go look through old continuity to connect a reference. Not a big deal though and it doesn't really affect the story.
[/spoiler]
So, it's a little too much teasing at old continuity for me. If you're trying to bring in new readers and OMD was this large stepping stone to get rid of stuff you didn't like, then make use of it and don't keep playing with a reader's heart string. I'm pretty sure JJJ won't die, but even playing with the possibility that Peter will have his old guilt replaced with newer fresh guilt for something he directly did just seems kinda...moot, especially 2 issues in. Revisiting the [updated] mugger story isn't my idea of fresh either and I'm just hoping that gets resolved soon and doesn't end up with someone close to Peter dying or being shot (and I can totally see that being Mephisto's dastardly plan and ironic). So all in all, BND is leaving me with a meh feeling even with me ignoring OMD and I still don't see what erasing the marriage allowed them more freedom to do. In fact, this is a challenge to anyone that cares to answer it, what story can't anyone tell with Peter being married beyond Pete going wild and dating every woman he meets?
*Note: I'm over the marriage thing and I didn't really care all that much about it to begin with, but I just don't see how he's written into a corner by just *being* married. MJ, when she was around, was treated as just a supporting character that offered Pete perspective/another POV. She's rarely been written as anything more and her personality/feistiness was toned down quite a lot. I think she was going through a Gwen syndrome sometimes minus all the crying. Also, please don't use the aging theory. I find it slightly ridiculous because how many of you read a comic and go, "Spider-man is 30 years old in this issue!"? Not only that but, most of marvel's heroes started at teens and they're all older now. De-aging spidey just makes him look...odd since his peers aren't getting any younger...yet. *looks at Jubilee*
Also, Zulu, I think my comic link (http://www.shortpacked.com/d/20080107.html) is better. Yours features mephisto and for all you know, you don't remember reading it even though you just read it. It's magic and I don't have to explain beyond that. Perhaps you were married and now you don't remember it and you were de-aged a bit. You don't know do you? DO YOU!
...What was I talking about? :rolleyes: :D ;)
So I gave BND a try, and honestly the first issue is decent, but some stuff definitely distracted. History is a bit wonky, but the thing that bugs me is stuff like Peter apparently having no job experience and no money. I think they went too far on the "bad luck/underdog" thing. I liked Peter being a teacher, it was a good role for him. I'd probably have gave him some apartment maybe with Harry rather than sticking with Aunt May. The old doting Aunt May bugs me, I prefer one thats a little more active or modern. So yeah I just thing they went too far. But I do like having Harry and a supporting cast back.
I have no plans currently to get the next one, I just was curious and my store still had copies yesterday.
Well, I find this article (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4806223.html) on the web somewhere and I figured it'd be a good read for anyone who cared about what the creators thought about the women in pete's life.
If Jonah didn't have a heart attack and die from learning that Parker is Spidey, I don't think he'd get that upset at Pete just being arrogant.
FWIW, I do know how to undo BND. Explain that Spidey's stories are no longer on the 616 world, and that he was transported to an alternate reality, and 616 Spidey and MJ have gone missing while Aunt May dies. I mean, isn't Mephisto a lord of lies to rival Loki?
Then send in the Exiles to save them. And reveal that 616 Spidey was replaced with a skrull. Why not?