spider-man one more day

[the_ultimate_evil]

i have yet to read the final part( dont get my comics till monday due to xmas) but i have read the end write up

seriously what in the hell is happening with this book.

[spoiler]so what harrys back and normans dead? how does this effect the other books. is gargen venom still does harry know about his dad and pete.so what happened during civial war now, just some of the many questions that are flying around my head

basiclly joey Q has slapped every fan in the face and got his own way[/spoiler]

[UnfluffyBunny]

[spoiler]
if there's one thing that should never be retconned in the history of spider-man ever.... it's this
[/spoiler]

[the_ultimate_evil]

[spoiler]
if there's one thing that should never be retconned in the history of spider-man ever.... it's this
[/spoiler]

really how so?

[UnfluffyBunny]

[spoiler]
peter and mary never even dating? screw up so many things it's mind boggling[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

[spoiler]I was reading some posts about this and it's gotta be the most insane retcon I've ever seen. Harry's just back? Peter and MJ's relationship is wiped from history? And pretty much all of JMS' run and who knows what else wiped out too. This is gotta be the most confusing thing I've ever seen and it can only hurt Brand New Day, which I thought was a good concept.[/spoiler]

[Previsionary]

[spoiler]Well, I'll just say that two issues of this event killed any remaining love I had for spidey. Not necessarily because of the writing, which was fine iirc, but because the concept is so...out there. Also, I happened to like MJ and Peter together since that's the relationship I, and probably a majority of the spidey fans (comic and mainstream/movie/tv), have had the most exposure to. She's only been the main love interest in 3 movies, 2 (possibly 3) cartoons, and she has a comic based on their relationship and now we're just supposed to forget it because Quesada wants peter single so he can have more story options...though a marriage doesnt exactly hinder story ideas nor age Peter...but that's just my rationale.[/spoiler]

Also, we're losing FNSM, a book I really liked just because it wasn't all dark and gloomy like other certain spidey books, for more amazing spidey. Regardless, I might check out BND just to see how things work out, though the new villains/hero(es?) don't really interest me much.

[zuludelta]

[spoiler]Don't really read Spider-Man these days outside of the occasional TPB I borrow from the library, but I can appreciate the thinking behind One More Day. I don't think it's editorial being against the idea of a Peter Parker married to MJ per se, it's just that a married Peter Parker sort of limits what writers can do with the character and his supporting cast. With MJ and Peter married, a lot of the romantic tension that defined their relationship was gone... it's the same reason why Archie never really settled with either Betty or Veronica, Archie ending up with either one of them would have ruined the dynamic. When Peter married MJ, Peter finally "won", which sort of undercuts the whole notion of the character as the underdog we all love to root for... I mean how is he an underdog anymore, he's married to a smoking hot lingerie model for goodness' sake! The marriage introduced a sense of finality and closure with one important aspect of Peter Parker's life, and as good as that sounds on the surface, it's not really a good strategy if you're planning on publishing stories with the same character indefinitely while hoping to retain the same type of dynamic.

It's sort of like what happened to the Punisher character back in the early 1980s: once he had killed his family's alleged murderers (it might have been an issue of Marvel Fanfare where this happened, in any event, this occurred before there was even any solo Punisher book) and he finally gained some closure, there was nowhere left to take the character. He was created as a character motivated by revenge, and once he had gained that measure of vengeance, that was it, he would have to essentially be re-made to have a different motivation if he were to continue in his criminal-killing exploits. Writer Steven Grant knew that when he was tasked to write the 1986 Punisher mini-series, which is why he had to create a somewhat contrived (but still effective) set of circumstances in that story for Frank Castle to reprise his Punisher role  (IIRC, he was trying to stop a nationwide organization of copycat vigilantes that his prior exploits had inspired). Quite unexpectedly, the mini-series became a hit, and the mini-series eventually led to a regular series. But the problem remained. Why would the Punisher keep on killing if his primary motivation for taking up the vigilante cause no longer holds? At first, writers tried to duplicate Grant's approach, coming up with interesting reasons and circumstances for Frank Castle interminably donning the black, skull-emblazoned uniform but it wasn't too long before they stopped bothering... "killing criminals" became something that the Punisher did, with little offered by way of motivation save for a perfunctory allusion to his family's death at the hands of the mob, leading to a one-dimensional character that was neither interesting (eventually the contrivances devised by the writers to keep the Punisher killing criminals would start showing their weaknesses) nor sympathetic ("revenge" is a concept we can all relate to, and with that taken away, there wasn't really much left to hang a story on with regards to the Punisher). It was only when Garth Ennis came along, painting the Punisher as a serial killer fueled by a psychotic obsession to kill those he deemed guilty (and thus dispensing with any lip service to the idea that the Punisher is in any shape or form a traditional "hero"), that the character again gained any true motivation for his actions.

The same sort of storytelling problem that plagued the Punisher books for most of their existence was creeping in on Spider-Man after the decision was made to let him marry MJ. How do you create romantic tension (an important aspect of any extended Peter Parker storyline) in his married relationship? Before he was married, the romantic tension was introduced by using the typical devices: some new romantic interest comes in and woos MJ or Peter, Peter's adventures as Spider-Man ruins his dating plans with MJ, etc., basically Marvel-ized variations of the issues any young, dating couple face. With Peter married, those elements would paint Peter and MJ in a less-than-flattering light... the inclusion of a credible third-party romantic interest would make MJ and/or Peter look like they were guilty of, if not adultery, infidelity. Peter letting his marriage go to pot as he attends to his superheroics would make him look like a neglectful husband. And unlike the Punisher, Marvel couldn't really have Spider-Man portrayed in such a negative light. Thus, the only card left to play in the romantic tension game was using MJ as the damsel-in-distress to Spider-Man's knight-in-shining-armour, which can only work for so long before it gets tired and boring.

With all that being said, do I think One More Day was a step in the right direction? Yes, I think the decision to dissolve the marriage was the right one to make in the interest of the long-term viability of the character (the same way say, that DC's clumsy attempts at "rebooting" their whole universe are necessary to keep their characters from getting too dated), but boy, I can't imagine how any writer can make it read good (from what I've read of the storyline on Wikipedia)... I mean, seeing what's involved this has the potential not only to be "Sins Past" bad, but "Clone Saga" bad (although I like seeing Joe Quesada drawing again)
[/spoiler]

[Previsionary]

sir zulu,

[spoiler]I've no problem with the marriage being dissolved, I have a problem with how it was dissolved and how so much of spidey's history has been undone. That's just not a good way to undo something. It basically erases a bunch of history from Spidey and Marvel U in general (IE: Civil War is drastically changed since Spidey revealed himself to protect aunt may and MJ or something like that, Harry returning and being on good terms with Pete, etc.). Also, JMS has gone on record saying this is pretty much all Joey's idea (and it's been no real secret that he and others have hated the marriage [and MJ] for quite the longest time putting Gwen ahead of her):

"there's a lot that I don't agree with, and I made this very clear to everybody within shouting distance at Marvel, especially Joe Quesada... there was a point where I made the decision, and told Joe, that I was going to take my name off the last two issues of the OMD arc." Eventually Joe talked me out of that decision because at the end of the day, I don't want to sabotage Joe or Marvel, and I have a lot of respect for both of those."

Also, I really don't think he's won all that much with winning MJ's hand in marriage. There's still plenty to write with him dating (or married) to her. IMO, it's no different than him being tied to Aunt may all these years except there's romance involved. If he can have all these good stories with Aunt may around (i'm effectively ignoring her deaths), then I think a good writer can pull off some good MJ/Peter stories. They somehow managed to pull it off with Cyclops/Jean [bad example ^_^]and possibly Luke Cage and Jessica (haven't read much of them). Regardless of that, this whole story was plagued with being over-hyped and delays because of Joey's drawing. It may look nice, but delays really hurt the story (and they were already hyping/spoiling BND by issue 2 of this story so...all the POTENTIAL excitement for this story just disappeared). So rambling over, I don't care if the marriage is dissolved, but do it in a non-random, Mephisto unrelated way. If that much of spidey's history is erased (and if it effectively change major events in the Marvel Universe), then it causes MORE problems than it fixes (or attempts to fix). Heck, if this change even remains in play for longer than a few months, they'll have to eventually go back and tell what happened in all these events and how many times do you want to relive Marvel's Civil War? Not to mention, I happen to think that it's a good idea when comic characters mature a bit. I don't really want characters to move backwards (which is why I don't really like Wolverine when he randomly returns to his lone wolf, grunting, killing machine personality when otherwise he's shown differently); but that's just me.[/spoiler]

[zuludelta]

[spoiler]

Not to mention, I happen to think that it's a good idea when comic characters mature a bit. I don't really want characters to move backwards (which is why I don't really like Wolverine when he randomly returns to his lone wolf, grunting, killing machine personality when otherwise he's shown differently); but that's just me.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of characters developing over time myself (big fan of long-running comics series that have a well-defined beginning, middle, and end and showcase character development such as Koike and Kojima's Lone Wolf and Cub and Ennis' Preacher), I just don't think having characters categorically mature and date themselves with respect to certain life milestones or real-world events (getting married, celebrating their 30th birthday, referencing 9/11 in a storyline, etc.) is a good idea over the long-term when it comes to certain "timeless" characters. It's one of the vagaries of writing for long-running serial media that have potentially non-finite spans for their stories. At some point, the writers will have to return to the status quo at the core of the success of the comics (Again, I point to DC's Infinite Crisis of Deus Ex Machina Re-Boots and Excessively Complicated Story Contrivances or Marvel's equally ridiculous "sliding scale" for determining the passage of time in the Marvel Universe... I don't like them, but they are necessary devices to keep the illusion of "change without any real change" that's central to the practice of writing non-finite serial fiction).

It's certainly possible to have characters implicitly develop, mature, and change permanently over the length of a story or multiple successive stories without explicitly aging them (or alternatively, without exposing the absurdity of the progression of time in comics). General Hospital does it successfully all the time (and without the benefit of things like extra-dimensional demons or Superboy continuity punches), and it's been running continuously (first on radio, and later on television) for far longer than any Spider-Man comic book (and I'm impressed at how well their writers have managed to satisfy the soap opera continuity geeks, who are probably even more obsessive than comic book fans when it comes to these things), so I don't know why we see comic book writers painting themselves into a corner time and time again (and having to come up with unsatisfying ways to extricate themselves) when it comes to their characters' ages and temporal setting.   

[/spoiler]

[bat1987]

[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!

What did MJ offered to Mephisto? Her soul?[/spoiler]

[zuludelta]

[spoiler]

Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!

What did MJ offered to Mephisto? Her soul?

I don't think it's been revealed. Although if I'm Mephisto, I know what I would want  :lol:

[/spoiler]

[Previsionary]

Someone's dirty. :P

[spoiler]Other than her marriage and her possible child(ren) [IE: Spider-girl/May Parker and some other girl who may or may not be the main universe's May Parker], it wasn't revealed. Though, if MJ turns out to be Jackpot, it may have something to do with that.[/spoiler]

[MJB]

Also, JMS has gone on record saying this is pretty much all Joey's idea (and it's been no real secret that he and others have hated the marriage [and MJ] for quite the longest time putting Gwen ahead of her):

Where did you find that quote from JMS? Link to the original please?

-MJB

[Previsionary]

JMS's blog archive --very bottom post

Just to add more:

Interview with Joey Q

WACKER Interview

[the_ultimate_evil]

[spoiler]
peter and mary never even dating? screw up so many things it's mind boggling[/spoiler]

ahh fair enough i mis read you as saying you thought that this event should not be reconned :) and i agree with you 110%

[JKCarrier]

I'm pretty much indifferent to the marriage... a good writer can tell interesting stories about a married Spidey or an unmarried Spidey. Those of you who are married: Did your life become completely free of drama and complications once you tied the knot? Didn't think so.  ;) Having MJ be a rich 'n famous supermodel was a dumb idea, because it took Spidey too far away from the central concept of being an "average joe". But otherwise, keep 'em together, break 'em up, whatever, just make it interesting.

Having Spidey deal with a death or divorce would be meaningful, and dramatic, and fit in nicely with the soap-opera tradition of the series. But this mystical retcon stuff? Completely out of tune with the style and themes of Spider-Man, and as others have pointed out, it creates huge continuity problems throughout the Marvel line. Did they learn nothing from DC's Crisis? In fact, it's so catastrophically dumb, that I have to wonder it it isn't intended to be just some short-term stunt, ala "Age of Apocalypse".

[Talavar]

[spoiler]

My main problem with this is how selfish it makes Peter - he basically is trading his wife's happiness to extend Aunt May's life a little longer (seriously, that woman must be about a thousand by now) and assuage his guilt over the situation surrounding her getting shot.  He doesn't remember, so his actions here - sacrificing his marriage - effectively don't bother him. 

Retconning so much of Spider-man's history is going to be a nightmare to keep track of, and rubbing out something as recent as his unmasking in Civil War is just depressing.  They don't have the editorial cajones to stick with a controversial decision from what - a year ago?  I can only hope this controversial decision lasts as long.

I've never even been a huge fan of MJ, or Spider-man's relationship with her - she doesn't seem like a good match for Peter; beside her being hot, what does she have going for her & what do she & Pete have in common (I like that Ultimate Spidey, her character has been significantly revamped to be a little more in-sync with Peter)?

[/spoiler]

[the_ultimate_evil]

[spoiler]

My main problem with this is how selfish it makes Peter - he basically is trading his wife's happiness to extend Aunt May's life a little longer (seriously, that woman must be about a thousand by now) and assuage his guilt over the situation surrounding her getting shot.  He doesn't remember, so his actions here - sacrificing his marriage - effectively don't bother him. 

Retconning so much of Spider-man's history is going to be a nightmare to keep track of, and rubbing out something as recent as his unmasking in Civil War is just depressing.  They don't have the editorial cajones to stick with a controversial decision from what - a year ago?  I can only hope this controversial decision lasts as long.

I've never even been a huge fan of MJ, or Spider-man's relationship with her - she doesn't seem like a good match for Peter; beside her being hot, what does she have going for her & what do she & Pete have in common (I like that Ultimate Spidey, her character has been significantly revamped to be a little more in-sync with Peter)?

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]see thats where i differ from a lot a of spidey fans, i despised gwen found her boring and too cookie cutter the perfect little woman type :rolleyes:, where as mj i felt was perfect for peter. she had multi layer personality with the whole party girl outside with the dark troubled inside. the point that she was hot to me was another layer to the underdog story peter had. no matter what happened he fought and got what he wanted in the end[/spoiler]

[Podmark]

[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
[/spoiler]

That problem was taken care of in Avengers the Initiative #7 for the most part though.

[Previsionary]

One thing that I need answered is when does this story take place in comparison to the other stories Peter (or his rogue gallery) takes part in. If Green Goblin (Norman) and Venom (Scorpion) are still in thunderbolts, as shown by previews; Eddie is still suffering from cancer in the hospital May was in, and peter is in his black costume in New Avengers...then the core book is looking more and more out of continuity.

Also this pic of wolverine/spidey seems to show wolverine in his astonishing costume or some variation of it. Unless it's an artist error, I'm pretty sure wolverine didn't have that costume 15-20 years ago.

So, with all that in mind, I have just convinced myself that Mephisto (who has some sort of fluctuation with his powers, but he's never been shown to be able to affect entire timelines) trapped peter and MJ in some sort of complex illusion, trapped them in a dream, or sent them to another timelime.

[Protomorph]

[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
[/spoiler]

That problem was taken care of in Avengers the Initiative #7 for the most part though.

Oh, how so? spoiler me, please :)

[Podmark]

[spoiler]Well at least his ID isn`t public kowledge anymore, I hated that!
[/spoiler]

That problem was taken care of in Avengers the Initiative #7 for the most part though.

Oh, how so? spoiler me, please :)

My understanding was that Peter met up with the 3 Scarlet Spider's from that book who he helped take down some villains and they revealed him as part of some plan by Tony Stark to create his own Spider-Men to the media. The end result was that people now weren't certain Peter was really the real Spider-Man.

[B A D]

Feh. The Peter Parker I've been reading for more than 20 years would never make a deal with Mephisto. Ridiculous.


So what have they accomplished? They've set spider-man back in the seventies, with his old cast of characters from the seventies, so he can have adventures just like when he was in the seventies.

If I wanted to read stories like this, I could . In essential spider-man, reprinted from the seventies. I've no desire whatsoever to read reahashed tales from Joephisto's glory days of comics.

[BlueBard]

Haven't been following any of this... and boy am I glad.  If I'd been paying Marvel to do stupid stuff like that, I'd really be ticked off.

[Talavar]

[spoiler]

My main problem with this is how selfish it makes Peter - he basically is trading his wife's happiness to extend Aunt May's life a little longer (seriously, that woman must be about a thousand by now) and assuage his guilt over the situation surrounding her getting shot.  He doesn't remember, so his actions here - sacrificing his marriage - effectively don't bother him. 

Retconning so much of Spider-man's history is going to be a nightmare to keep track of, and rubbing out something as recent as his unmasking in Civil War is just depressing.  They don't have the editorial cajones to stick with a controversial decision from what - a year ago?  I can only hope this controversial decision lasts as long.

I've never even been a huge fan of MJ, or Spider-man's relationship with her - she doesn't seem like a good match for Peter; beside her being hot, what does she have going for her & what do she & Pete have in common (I like that Ultimate Spidey, her character has been significantly revamped to be a little more in-sync with Peter)?

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]see thats where i differ from a lot a of spidey fans, i despised gwen found her boring and too cookie cutter the perfect little woman type :rolleyes:, where as mj i felt was perfect for peter. she had multi layer personality with the whole party girl outside with the dark troubled inside. the point that she was hot to me was another layer to the underdog story peter had. no matter what happened he fought and got what he wanted in the end[/spoiler]

Oh, I wasn't saying I preferred Gwen Stacy.  Neither of them really seem like that good of a fit for Peter.

[bredon7777]

If I hadn't already dropped 99% of my Marvel books because of the severe mishandling of Civil War, this insanity would be enough to make me drop them.  I think it's completely and utterly wrong, what they've done over the past few years, and the fact that it seems to have caused sales to explode upward makes me feel old, out of touch, and very very bitter.

[AncientSpirit]

Ditto.

[Alaric]

Same here.

[Klauser]

If I hadn't already dropped 99% of my Marvel books because of the severe mishandling of Civil War, this insanity would be enough to make me drop them.  I think it's completely and utterly wrong, what they've done over the past few years, and the fact that it seems to have caused sales to explode upward makes me feel old, out of touch, and very very bitter.

Wow ...  in two sentences you managed to describe perfectly my reaction to most comics today.

Thanks!

[thalaw2]

I guess for us new old timers it may be time to bow out and let the new gen take over.  After all if we really want a good Marvel story we have only to dip into our archives.