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Author Topic: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)  (Read 1837 times)

Offline Tomato

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Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« on: November 20, 2016, 02:20:23 AM »
So as I wait for my food delivery to arrive, and since I'm in a bit of an odd humor... let's talk Archenemies.

As a figure person, I've always kind of liked the notion of having collections that face teams of heroes against teams of villains... Legion of Doom/Crime Syndicate against JLA, Masters of Evil vs the Avengers, Brotherhood against X-men... That sort of thing. But while these teams in the comics are typically second string villains (since the egos of most A-list villains prevent them from teaming up most of the time), that's not really AS impressive as, say, a Legion team consisting of the likes of Lex Luther, Joker, Sinestro, Reverse Flash, and Black Manta. Their history with their respective heroes makes the standoff more interesting.

But where I always struggle is with the characters who aren't typically solo acts: Scarlet Witch, Jubilee, Captain Marvel, Mockingbird, Beast, Storm, etc. Yeah, you can make a case for this or that villain for every character, but there comes a point where there's less and less history there, and makes it feel like I'm just filling in a space. Then too, there's cases where the counterpart can be hotly contested... conventional wisdom is that Green Goblin is Spider-Man's archenemy, but as has been discussed here recently, Doctor Octopus is and was a far more challenging antagonist.

So I figured... why not discuss it with my crazy friends on Freedom Reborn? However, since it's a fairly large topic, I want to narrow the focus to a select few Avengers characters for now: Namely, the ones present in last year's Age of Ultron film. To clarify, we are specifically talking about the comic versions of the characters, but I figured keeping it to that group would give us an interesting cross section of characters to talk about. For anyone somehow not in the loop or in need of refresher, that means:

Captain America
Iron Man
Thor
Hawkeye
Black Widow
Hulk
Scarlet Witch
Vision
Quicksilver


Feel free to list as many or as few as you want, and feel free to think outside the box for your answers: For example, while the "default" archenemy for Tony is the Mandarin, I've always personally liked Dr Doom as Tony's #1 Archenemy... he has a similar mechanized-armor power suit, is arguably smarter than Tony, heavily relies on mystical solutions as well as mechanical ones to solve his problems, and is in some ways a dark reflection of Tony's futurism... Doom honestly believes the best future is one where he rules everything, which is what drives his actions.

Offline daglob

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2016, 02:48:37 AM »
For Thor, it's Loki of course. Nothing like a little sibling rivalry (with a hard edge on it since Loki is "adopted"). A lot of the heavyweights in Thor's rogues gallery are in some way related to his brother. The Hulk's archenemy should be The Leader, since he is a kind of anti-Hulk, and can build anything he needs to defeat The Hulk (despite never being able to do it). The Abomination is The Hulk in a glass darkly, kind of like The Hulk's Id, to match The Leader's Superego .

The Red Skull is Cap's opposite, operating on hate where Cap uses courage, compassion, and love of country.

Iron Man has , in the past, had other armored enemies: The Titanium Man and The Crimson Dynamo. Tony is so  much better than they are, it isn't really a contest. I see the point with Doc Doom, but Victor's ego will always require that he defeat Reed Richards. Tony Stark might be a pleasant side trail, but it's Reed he wants to humiliate and destroy.

The problem with The Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Hawkeye, Black Widow, and The Vision is that they have never had a long running series to acquire an assortment of enemies and one rise to the position of Archenemy. I don't think that Magneto would really count as Wanda's and Pietro's archenemy.

Offline Glitch Girl

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2016, 03:05:50 AM »
My list (written while  daglob was posting):

Captain America / Red Skull - Gotta go with the classics here.

Iron Man / MODOK of AIM - This is a tough one, and I'm not 100% committed to this choice, but I primarily picked it because of MODOK's close association with AIM (and I don't think associations can be someone's arch enemy, can they?). 

Thor / Loki - Like, who else could it be?  :D

Hawkeye / Bullseye - Mostly due to Dark Avengers

Black Widow / Black Widow - Specifically Yelena Belova the OTHER Black Widow. 

Hulk / Leader - For me, this is all about opposites.  Hulk gained brutish strength, Leader gained massive intellect

Scarlet Witch / Enchantress - not a pairing I'm 100% behind, but it does work well on some level.

Vision / Ultron - the Father/Son dychotomy works here so well.

Quicksilver / Magneto - Another pairing I'm not 100% behind, but I do like the whole father/son thing as you can tell.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2016, 04:30:12 AM »
That's an interesting list GG. I was gonna wait a bit, but I'll post a few of mine just for the discussion.

Captain America/Red Skull- Yeah... Zemo is a good alternate, but I agree... Red Skull is THE Cap villain.
Iron Man/Dr Doom- Already made my case for this one. I do recognise his larger history with the FF, but I just genuinely LIKE Doom vs Iron Man.
Thor/Loki- Again, pretty much a classic example of archenemies
Hawkeye/Swordsmaster- I do think the comparisons between Bullseye and Hawkeye are interesting, and worth exploring... but for my money, Swordsman is the better archnemesis. Granted, he did go on to become a hero later, but I do like the corrupt tutor deal Jacques had with Clint during his days as a petty thief.
Black Widow/Black Widow- I don't even know that much about Yelena and I know she's pretty much a perfect fit to be Natasha's archenemy.
Hulk/Leader- Yeah... I like villains like Abomination who can go toe to toe with Hulk, but yeah... Leader is pretty much the Lex Luthor to Hulk's Superman.

As for the last 3... I honestly don't know. GG's choices are interesting, but they fall a bit flat to me... Magneto is Xavier's archenemy more so than Pietro's, and previously I've always paired Ultron against Hank Pym (Though I also kinda like Egghead for that role... partly for his history with Hank, but also because he basically created the Darren Cross version of Yellowjacket in the comics, aka Scott Lang's archnemesis. There's a synergy there I rather like.).

Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2016, 04:53:09 AM »
Captain America - I liked the Captain America + Super Patriot/USAgent rivalry. While not as "Classic" as his Red Skull feud, I've always that that the battle to see who was the better American Hero was an interesting, and unique rivalry.
 
Iron Man - For Iron Man, I liked Justin Hammer (I think that's who it was). Stark created the tech, Hammer stole it. Stark used it for good, Hammer used it for profit. "Armor Wars" was, and still is, one of my favorite Iron Man stories.

Thor - Unfortunately, Thor's biggest rivalry has always seemed to be Loki, no other way around that.

Hawkeye - I've always liked Trickshot as Hawkeye's main nemesis, you have the Student vs Mentor rivalry, and to an extent, you have Hawkeye trying to break away from his abusive Father figure. Back in the day, these two had an interesting dynamic that gave Hawkeye a lot more depth than he had previously posessed.

Black Widow - As the world's greatest spy, I guess her enemies would be anyone sho posesses something she wants? Honestly, though, I don't know on this one.

Hulk - I'd have to say either the Thing, or Wolverine. Again, we have Hero vs Hero trying to prove who is better, with numerous battles over the years. This is a toss up for me.

Scarlet Witch - This was another tough one, so I'll just say any Mutant who lost their Powers because of her, and leave it at that.

Vision - For me, this is a given. Grim Reaper. Both have "Brotherly" ties to Simon Williams, yet neither could ever fully be that Brother. The Vision is a creature of hope and love, while the Reaper is one of hate and despair, two sides of the same coin with the potential for some awesome battles.

Quicksilver - Vision and the Scarlet Witch. How long did that hatred go on for? Did it ever get fully resolved? His Sister married a glorified Toaster and had Kids with it...Yeah, I'd say that's reason enough to develop some anger issues, and to keep them as your Arch-nemesis for a looong time.

Offline spydermann93

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2016, 05:02:43 AM »
What about the Mandarin for Iron Man? I always liked the Mandarin and I thought his rings were awesome. He would also give the group a good footing in the East as well, in case those pesky heroes get too bothersome at times.

About the Hulk and the Leader, I feel that the Leader just wouldn't mesh too well with the group as a whole. He just seems too much of a loner and too arrogant to work with those he thinks are dumber than he is. I would say Abomination would work for the team. This team needs muscle and Abomination can most certainly provide that.

I like the match-ups for Black Widow and Hawkeye that you have both put out, but I would say for Hawkeye, I would go for Bullseye in the end. I think he would take a lot of thrill playing around with and competing with Hawkeye to where he would like to stay on the team. Plus, he'll probably be paid by the Skull :P Swordsman has been reformed and I just don't know if he should be going back to super-villainy. Though it would make for a great dynamic.

For Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, and Vision, I'm not really too sure who would be joining Red Skull's "Legion of Terror" that are exact match-ups for these three. They have all been Avengers for a very, very, very long time, but most of the villains that fight are already arch-nemeses of other heroes/teams, so I can't really think of anything for them.

EDIT: Just saw Cyber's post, and I like the thought of Hammer being part of the team, but I dunno, he just seems too inept.  I don't feel the Red Skull would put up with him for very long :P

And interesting idea about having Grim Reaper on the team. Adds more Hydra to the group, which I don't think Red Skull would mind at all :P
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 05:06:09 AM by spydermann93 »

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2016, 06:33:13 AM »
I would also have to say Mandarin is Iron Mans archenemy.Moriarty to his Sherlock.
And before anyone triggers,he now looks wastly different then in the Silver age,and he never looked like the 90's cartoon version.End of story,move on.
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Offline Tomato

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2016, 06:44:04 AM »
See, I agree Mandarin is the "go to" archenemy, particularly after the Iron Man cartoon, but he's kind of faded away in recent years. Iron Man's always been a hard one to nail down, as Iron Man's biggest archenemy is was and has always been Tony Stark, but that's a little hard to showcase in a supervillain team. That being said, while I certainly appreciate Justin Hammer and Mandarin's history with Tony, one of my favorite Iron Man stories was one where he was travelling through time with Dr Doom.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I agree with GG on Ultron being Vision's archenemy. Even beyond the character's origin, there's been a few times over the years where Ultron has gone out of his way to specifically mess with Vision. Of course, I am also watching Age of Ultron again right now, so... that miiiiight be coloring my perspective a bit. I'm also finding more and more evidence of a Enchantress/Scarlet Witch feud... they've clashed one on one a few times over the years, and they appear to be popular with fans. I've seen a ton of fanart and staged cosplay battles, probably because of the similarity in general costume design and power set. The contrasting colors help sell that as well.

As for Pietro... meh. See, this is a time where I wish I knew more about the Inhumans and his relationship with them. I feel like that's the portion of his history where I'd most likely pull an archenemy from, especially given that group's prominence lately. Of course, I could always be cheeky and say his archenemy is "Buried Alien"

Spyder, I wouldn't think too hard about what villains go well in a team setting... as I stated in my first post, my interest is less about finding a team that would actually ever work together (I think we can all agree that Doom and Red Skull wouldn't exactly be best pals) and more in finding Archenemies for each hero.

Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2016, 06:53:53 AM »
Gillen also had Iron Man vs Malekith thing going on.Technology vs magic.And iron hurts magical creatures.Thor: Dark World was around,so they had to push in Malekith everywhere.  :rolleyes:

And IIRC Mandarin was in that run,so that's at least Marvel Now territory.I haven't been keeping up with iron Man,but all things considered,Mandarin isn't really forgotten.He was also in the newer animated series.Reinvented as Shredder,but it still counts.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2016, 09:37:31 AM by Spade »
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Offline Glitch Girl

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2016, 07:25:09 PM »
To be honest, Quicksilver's worst enemy is himself.  He's kept vacillating between Hero and Villain thanks to his own short-sighted decisions. 

And Scarlet Witch doesn't really have a nemesis, though the writers have tried to mess with her like mad over the years.

Hm... Random thought: Quicksilver vs Scarlet Witch?  That could be interesting, especially if Quicksilver was utterly convinced he was in the right (I could see Doom doing that).
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2016, 07:34:20 PM »
On the Doctor Doom issue,he is most definitly THE enemy of Fantastic Four and Reed in particular.But over the years he fought everyone,from Luke Cage to X-men to Doctor Strange.
Somewhat similar situation is with Mephisto.Who would actually be the archenemy of a dozen characters.
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Offline Cyber Burn

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2016, 09:09:51 PM »
To be honest, Quicksilver's worst enemy is himself.  He's kept vacillating between Hero and Villain thanks to his own short-sighted decisions. 

And Scarlet Witch doesn't really have a nemesis, though the writers have tried to mess with her like mad over the years.

Hm... Random thought: Quicksilver vs Scarlet Witch?  That could be interesting, especially if Quicksilver was utterly convinced he was in the right (I could see Doom doing that).

I'm just thinking of way back when, to the Avengers/West Coast Avengers crossover Annuals, where Quicksilver betrayed both teams and stuck The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants/Freedom Force on them because he was angry at the Vision and the Scarlet Witch.

I'd write more, but it's lunch time for the kids, sorry guys.

Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2016, 11:00:58 PM »
While I want to do all of them, I've only got enough time to do two.

Hawkeye-Crossfire. Why? Because everytime Clint has had a series, Crossfire has been the one going after Clint. If not for Crossfire, Clint might've never met Bobbi either.

Iron Man-Tony Stark. In the past, I'd say it would've been Mandirin or Stane. However, the most dangerous foe to Iron Man over and over again is Tony. Between alcoholism, ego, hatred at others using similar tech, and poor judgement, Stark has found himself in a bad position that he caused.
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Offline kkhohoho

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2016, 11:42:24 PM »
If Marvel and DC existed in the same universe, I'd say that the perfect archenemy to Iron Man would be Lex Luthor, as he's sort of a dark mirror to how Tony could have turned out to be had he gone a different path. That said, since that isn't and likely will never be the case, I'll have to go with Obadiah Stane, who is basically Post-Crisis Luthor before Post-Crisis Luthor. He may not have lasted long, but hell if he didn't leave a heckuva impact.

Though of course, Tony's ultimate foe will be always be himself, as is it with all of us who play the great game of life. That will be $10 for the zen quote of the day; $20 if you want to buy the full book. ;)
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2016, 12:35:15 AM »
Scarlet Witch-Chthon. While he's only sparingly appeared recently, Chthon and Scarlet Witch have a history that goes back to her childhood. If you go by the pre-Uncanny Avengers stories, Chthon was the one who ensured Wanda's powers were chaos magic instead of something else (taken from the MU handbook of 2009). From that point on, Chthon would keep popping up in Scarlet Witch's life - most of the time influencing her towards something or possessing her. If not for Chthon, Wanda might've never went mad with her reality-warping powers because she'd never have had them.
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Offline HarryTrotter

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2016, 06:39:46 AM »
Everyone is their own worst enemy?And I thought Daredevil is the only one with that going on.
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Offline Deaths Jester

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2016, 09:04:48 PM »
Black Widow.  At one point I would've said that Widow's greatest enemies were either Iron Maiden, Darius Dram, or Snapdragon.  Unhappily, all three of those have kind of disappeared over the years as villians.  I still want to say Iron Maiden, though, because Widow and Maiden came up through the Red Room together and were always very...competitive. The two of them against each other always seemed to work best compared to others, including Yelena.

The easy ones are Cap and Red Skull, Vision and Ultron, and Thor and Loki.
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Offline windblown

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Re: Archenemies (Avengers 19Nov16)
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2016, 10:13:59 PM »
Layla Miller was declared the nemesis of Quicksilver in X-factor, I think that feud was not followed after the end of the series though.