Netflix is making Daredevil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, AND Jessica Jones shows!

[Shogunn2517]

Marathoned it from start to finish last night, probably shouldn't have (Sleep schedule is waaaay off now) but this might be my favorite of the Netflix shows so far. It still has it's moments, but this is also easily the most tame of the 3 series... though I would warn anyone who would watch this and not the others that this does reference the other series (particularly JJ, for obvious reasons) pretty heavily. Not in a "You HAVE to have watched them" kind of way, but they'll talk about punisher or about some things that happened to luke in passing, and you might be lost in those moments. If it has any sore spots, it does have some political charge (not anything specifically along party lines, but as was said going in, this IS a bulletproof Black Man)

That being said, this might well be my favorite of the 3. Good amount of action, great characters, respect for history, great humor... even an honest to goodness Supervillain fight. So while I suggest people know about plot points from the other series going in, I urge anyone who's been on the fence for some of the admittedly darker stories to watch this one. That being said...

Spoiler

I think the weakest element in the whole series was the transition from Cottonmouth to Diamondback. We go from one black gangster who's obsessive about Luke Cage to the point where he self-destructs to another Gangster who's obsessive about Luke Cage to the point he self destructs. Like... I know the history of the characters and how big a deal Diamondback was to the formation of Cage, but he had been built up as this dude who was getting tired of Cottonmouth's single minded drive and was gonna come back and replace him... to just another dude who had a crazy obsession with Cage. Except unlike Cottonmouth, who we've seen has a code of ethics and was a genuinely interesting character(I honestly did feel bad for him when he found out his lieutenant shot up the barber shop), Diamondback was just a crazy person with a grudge match against Cage for reasons that we hear about, but never see. Aside from the growth of Shades and Cottonmouth's cousin, the replacement served no purpose, and I'd rather they have used Diamondback for a second season.

Still, that's really not a huge deal, especially compared to how DD Season 2 went waaay off the rails in the second half of the story. I do like how things have been set up for season 2/the Defenders, and I loved the respect the series showed Harlem, both it's people and it's history.

Also, the bit with the costume might have been my favorite bit in the whole show.

"I look like a damn fool!" 

I dig what you saying Tomato.  Not sure if I fully agree with some parts.

Spoiler

I don't think watching the other series are as critical.  I know there's Trish Talk, Claire's lawyer references and Pop bringing up Jessica Jones, but I still think it's to the point where you'll be wondering what happened.  Dont think people will be as lost, though it might color things differently though.   That and I hear you about the stark villain change.  Now that you mention, it seem like Diamondback only came out of nowhere after/because of Cottonmouth and not because of his hate of Luke.  That and I kinda do wish Cottonmouth stayed around longer because Marsheali Ali CRUSHED IT.

But definitely agree with all you said above.

[Tomato]

Spoiler

It's mostly in regards to Claire, who has been a recurring character in every season thus far. Her relationship with Luke was established in JJ, and while they do a good job of summing it up for people who came in late, there's subtleties about her character you'll miss if you didn't see her progression across the previous 3 shows. Plus, the ultimate fate of Luke's wife (who is established far more here than in JJ) is glossed over because it was a major plot thread in JJ, which might be a little frustrating for people. It's not game breaking, but as I said, it's more prevalent than in other shows because so many main characters showed up in previous series.

[Shogunn2517]

Spoiler

It's mostly in regards to Claire, who has been a recurring character in every season thus far. Her relationship with Luke was established in JJ, and while they do a good job of summing it up for people who came in late, there's subtleties about her character you'll miss if you didn't see her progression across the previous 3 shows. Plus, the ultimate fate of Luke's wife (who is established far more here than in JJ) is glossed over because it was a major plot thread in JJ, which might be a little frustrating for people. It's not game breaking, but as I said, it's more prevalent than in other shows because so many main characters showed up in previous series.

Spoiler

Honestly, I wouldn't say just with Claire.  I had a friend come in town and gushing over the show I decided to let him watch the first 5-10 mins and I found myself explaining who Reva was and the shotgun incident Pop was referring to in the second scene.  I suppose I didn't have to, but i wanted to give context that Luke Cage didn't.  But I see your point though. 

[detourne_me]

Spoiler

Does anybody know what's up with Commanche? He was mentioned as another prisoner at Seagate, but I don't think he was in Harlem at all.  At first I thought Diamondback was Commanche, cause he had the sniper rifle and was dropping Warriors quotes. Maybe Season 2?

Also, I'm not that familiar with the original Diamondback, but I thought it was pretty interesting that his super-suit reminded me of Rock Python, a Serpent Squad villain.

[spydermann93]

Spoiler

Does anybody know what's up with Commanche? He was mentioned as another prisoner at Seagate, but I don't think he was in Harlem at all.  At first I thought Diamondback was Commanche, cause he had the sniper rifle and was dropping Warriors quotes. Maybe Season 2?

Also, I'm not that familiar with the original Diamondback, but I thought it was pretty interesting that his super-suit reminded me of Rock Python, a Serpent Squad villain.

Spoiler

Diamondback in the comics

http://comicvine.gamespot.com/diamondback/4005-25689/

Oddly enough, though, everything else about Styker seems pretty darn close, even his suit.

Willis Stryker: http://comicvine.gamespot.com/willis-stryker/4005-44388/

[BentonGrey]

A page of spoiler conversations...hmm, apparently I need to finish this series. 

So, we watched the first episode last night, and we really weren't that impressed.  I had pretty high hopes after how amazing Daredevil was, but the quality just wasn't as good. It was also uneven, and the writing and delivery often felt forced.  I'm particularly interested in Shogunn's reaction, as the show felt 'inauthentic' to me.  Of course, I'm very much unfamiliar with that world, so I suppose the fault is mine, especially given Shogunn's enthusiastic endorsement of its portrayal. 

While Daredevil employed gratuitous violence to prove it could ('guess what, we're not on cable!'), this show seems to be doing the same thing with gratuitous sex and nudity, which I didn't care for either.  Still, there were things about it I liked, some clever moments and some good staging. The political angle was pretty intriguing, and I'd be curious to see where it will go. The main character is likeable and interesting as well, but the total effect was disappointing for us.  Given all of the positivity here, I'm encouraged, and we'll definitely keep watching it, though I may have a hard time talking the wife into that.

[Tomato]

No spoilers, but Benton, I will say that I was sort of in the same boat about the nudity(I defend it's presence in Jessica Jones up to a point due to the nature of that show and the themes it deals with, but its only purpose in Luke Cage is to establish the weird relationship between Cage and Knight, and the bar scene and the scene afterwards do that well enough)... but that scene is weirdly the only instance of it. Sure, they do refer to it a lot (I hope you like the coffee metaphor, it'll be used a LOT) we do get a LOT of shirtless cage (notably the origin sequence) but that's not nudity so much as fan-service. Beyond that, there's really not time for it.

[Shogunn2517]

Very quickly about the sex, I said before that in Jessica Jones, I thought those scenes, which were rather "hardcore" were party of the story.  Two super strong people finding out that there is someone like them and they are using that strength without limit because they can.  That said, the scene in Luke Cage was a might different.  They didn't show the actual act.  Up until Misty left and we got a boob shot, I've seen similar in on cable tv.

A page of spoiler conversations...hmm, apparently I need to finish this series. 

So, we watched the first episode last night, and we really weren't that impressed.  I had pretty high hopes after how amazing Daredevil was, but the quality just wasn't as good. It was also uneven, and the writing and delivery often felt forced.  I'm particularly interested in Shogunn's reaction, as the show felt 'inauthentic' to me.  Of course, I'm very much unfamiliar with that world, so I suppose the fault is mine, especially given Shogunn's enthusiastic endorsement of its portrayal. 

While Daredevil employed gratuitous violence to prove it could ('guess what, we're not on cable!'), this show seems to be doing the same thing with gratuitous sex and nudity, which I didn't care for either.  Still, there were things about it I liked, some clever moments and some good staging. The political angle was pretty intriguing, and I'd be curious to see where it will go. The main character is likeable and interesting as well, but the total effect was disappointing for us.  Given all of the positivity here, I'm encouraged, and we'll definitely keep watching it, though I may have a hard time talking the wife into that.

But no worries, Benton.  You're entitled to your opinion and it's as valid as the next.  But I'm just saying for me, the cultural references made the show connect to me THAT much more.  Like a scene with some guys in a Barbershop talking basketball.  I've done that.  I work in politics and I KNOW politicians like Mariah.  I know personalities like Cottonmouth.  May not be criminal, but it's completely familiar.  Not to spoil too much but there's a line where Misty talks about a soror "skee-weeing out of here" and I knew EXACTLY what she meant.  That's my mom's sorority and my girl's.  Things like that.  They just made it make MORE sense, to me at least.

But again, that's what I'm curious about.  To those that might be unfamiliar with the world, would it still connect.  I've had friends that really connected.  Some not so much but enjoyed the show.  And then there's Benton.    But again, I think I was as curious about your impressions as you are mine.  Feel free to finish the series and let us know.

[spydermann93]

I'm not connected to the world, but I definitely appreciated it.  A lot of likable (and unlikable) characters filled the show and pretty much all in a good way.  I really felt sad when certain things happened to particular characters and upset when certain things didn't go our heroes' way.  I'll agree with Benton that it wasn't as good as Daredevil Season 1, but it was a close second for sure.  I could feel the heart in all of the characters.  Cottonmouth, while I didn't like him, was excellently acted.  Luke was charming; Misty wasn't some dependent cliché side character; Pops was genuinely likable; etc.  Really great series.

@Benton: Yeah, the first episode was a bit odd and the last few were a bit... strange I guess would be the word to describe it, but it really does get better as it goes.  Tomato is right in that we don't see ANYTHING like that at all for the rest of the show (ok, there's a kiss or two, but that's it), so if that bothered you, it won't any more.

[BentonGrey]

Like I said guys, the positivity here is certainly encouraging.  We'll definitely stick with it.  I'm glad to hear that the raunchy stuff from the first episode isn't everywhere. 

Shogunn, I appreciate your response, but I'd say that my opinion is definitely not just as valid as yours, considering I don't know the the world being painted.    Lady Grey and I were wondering if the false notes we were hearing were a lack of authenticity or just a matter of poor delivery.  It sounds like it is definitely the latter, which is a much better problem to have and one more easily forgiven.  Plus, it's a lot more likely to get better over the course of the show.

I'm very interested to see how the rest of the show stands up.

Ohh, did anyone else feel like the scene with the thugs shaking down the restaurant folks for a political contribution felt a bit off?  Protection money under the guise of politics is one thing, but it sounded more like they were after an actual donation which just seemed...odd.

[spydermann93]

Oh, no. It was robbery; not a donation.  I mean, they'll call it a "donation", but that most certainly wasn't what it was.

And about my post really quick (I just want to clarify): When I said that I didn't like Cottonmouth, I mean I didn't like what he did. His character and the acting behind him was phenomenal. He's a great addition to the MCU's villain cast

Spoiler

Until his crazy cousin does him in

[Tomato]

To be fair Benton, there ARE criticisms of the series' later episodes... but those criticisms are all in the spoiler tags because they relate to the second half of the series. So while I'd say it's still my favorite of the three shows, please understand that it's not to say it's above criticism. It certainly isn't, and I could not blame you if you don't like it as much as the others. But I do feel there's a LOT of good moments I think you should see before making the call one way or the other (the origin episode about midway through the series is a major highlight)

[Talavar]

News out of New York Comic Con:

Spoiler

Sigourney Weaver has been cast as the villain for Defenders, which is apparently only 8 episodes.  Karen Page is going to be in Punisher's own show, which is apparently filming already.  And Iron Fist footage was shown, some of which has hit the web, and he does get a glowing hand effect.

[stumpy]

Been watching this series over the past couple of weeks and just finished season 1 tonight. I have to say, this was really good. When I was a kid, quite possibly my first comic book purchases were Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes #250 and Power Man and Iron Fist #54 (I think). So, I was pretty excited to hear this series was coming to Netflix. I have enjoyed it as much as Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

And, it has be generally very good. The characters are interesting, the acting has been good, and the plot lines not too unbelievable (which is kind of the benchmark for shows like this). And, of course, the music. When Harlem's Paradise is almost ruined during one episode, both my gf and I were worried that the show wouldn't have the opportunity to showcase the music that adds so much flavor to the show, IMO.

Spoiler

I do agree that Cottonmouth was more interesting (and played in a more compelling way) than Diamondback. I understand that they are setting the scene for future seasons in which Mariah is the main opponent. I think she is pretty good and will be a compelling player in the story. Who knows if the Rat Pack will be make an appearance.

BTW, spydermann93, the Diamondback to whom you posted a picture is from Captain America's cast of characters. The Diamondback from the Power Man series predates her, I think.

[BentonGrey]

We watched the second episode tonight, and we both felt it was significantly better.  I'm looking forward to finishing this series.

[spydermann93]

BTW, spydermann93, the Diamondback to whom you posted a picture is from Captain America's cast of characters. The Diamondback from the Power Man series predates her, I think.

Oh, really? I thought they just changed the SS Diamondback (because Cottonmouth was a villain in the show, too). But hey, that's interesting to know!

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

Official Iron Fist trailer.  Looks interesting so far.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9OKL5no-S0

[Silver Shocker]

So as some of you have probably heard by now, Iron Fist is getting terrible reviews.

Lead actor Finn Jones (Danny Rand/Iron Fist) responded by saying it's for the fans and not for critics. Which is a pretty good response, as far as these things go. The only problem I have is that all of the other Marvel Netflix series got very good reviews. Even Luke Cage, which was easily the weakest series, got a 96% on Rotten Tomatoes. Hell, even the thoroughly mediocre Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D is currently running pull quote-filed ads in Marvel comics right now that are a source of unintentional comedy for me. Iron Fist must be pretty poor to get this response. All the MCU films also good good reviews, including Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2 and 3, and the two Thor films. I was expecting IF to be in line with Luke Cage (which was decent, but not great) so I'm actually surprised by this.

And before anyone brings up the race angle, the reviews address that the problem is not the White Savior cliche, or anything like that, but that the show features uninteresting characters, weak storytelling and surprisingly mediocre fight choreography. Obviously, I haven't seen it yet, but those are the areas that, if poor, could sink the enterprise, since those were areas where DD and the others excelled, and this production doesn't feature as impressive a cast as DD or JJ.

[Edit] So I forgot about this, but I should probably bring up that critics have only seen the first 6 episodes of the show, meaning it's possible it picks up in the second half.

[spydermann93]

Yeah, I've been hearing that critics have been panning the show pretty hard, but I'm still going to give it a go. I haven't disliked the Marvel Netflix shows yet, so I remain optimistic.

[Shogunn2517]

So as some of you have probably heard by now, Iron Fist is getting terrible reviews.

Lead actor Finn Jones (Danny Rand/Iron Fist) responded by saying it's for the fans and not for critics. Which is a pretty good response, as far as these things go. The only problem I have is that all of the other Marvel Netflix series got very good reviews. Even Luke Cage, which was easily the weakest series, got a 96% on Rotten Tomatoes. Hell, even the thoroughly mediocre Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D is currently running pull quote-filed ads in Marvel comics right now that are a source of unintentional comedy for me. Iron Fist must be pretty poor to get this response. All the MCU films also good good reviews, including Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2 and 3, and the two Thor films. I was expecting IF to be in line with Luke Cage (which was decent, but not great) so I'm actually surprised by this.

And before anyone brings up the race angle, the reviews address that the problem is not the White Savior cliche, or anything like that, but that the show features uninteresting characters, weak storytelling and surprisingly mediocre fight choreography. Obviously, I haven't seen it yet, but those are the areas that, if poor, could sink the enterprise, since those were areas where DD and the others excelled, and this production doesn't feature as impressive a cast as DD or JJ.

[Edit] So I forgot about this, but I should probably bring up that critics have only seen the first 6 episodes of the show, meaning it's possible it picks up in the second half.

BTW, not for nothing, you have to admit it's just your opinion that Luke Cage is "easily the weakest" series, when it did score better on RT than the other three.  I don't think that qualifies as "easily".

[HarryTrotter]

Or it could be that people just got tired of origin stories...

[BentonGrey]

Yeah, things are looking pretty grim for this show.  I think part of the reaction seems predicated on the backlash the character generated because of his origins, but the reviews definitely go beyond that.

[kkhohoho]

[Edit] So I forgot about this, but I should probably bring up that critics have only seen the first 6 episodes of the show, meaning it's possible it picks up in the second half.

That doesn't really make things better. 'Well, the first six episodes were crap, but if I'm somehow still sticking with it by this point, then maybe the second half is marginally better by comparison.' The point being that as good as the second half may or may not be, you still shouldn't have to wade through six episodes of sludge to get there.

[Ouflah]

That doesn't really make things better. 'Well, the first six episodes were crap, but if I'm somehow still sticking with it by this point, then maybe the second half is marginally better by comparison.' The point being that as good as the second half may or may not be, you still shouldn't have to wade through six episodes of sludge to get there.

I completely agree.

Too bad it's getting poor reviews. Since I heard Iron Fist was going to be getting his costume, I planned on trying it out.

[Shogunn2517]

In all seriousness though, are people seriously being critical of Iron Fist because he's not Asian?  Why would anybody be mad at the show and not Roy Thomas who wrote it?  I mean "Danny Rand" isn't the most Asian of names I've heard of....

Am I missing something?

[kkhohoho]

In all seriousness though, are people seriously being critical of Iron Fist because he's not Asian?  Why would anybody be mad at the show and not Roy Thomas who wrote it?  I mean "Danny Rand" isn't the most Asian of names I've heard of....

Am I missing something?

Probably. Aside from most people not knowing who the heck Roy Thomas even is, (shame that,) Iron Fist the TV show isn't Iron Fist the comic, so while it should more or less stay true to its source material to a certain extent, it can also and perhaps is even expected to make some changes for both a new medium and a new decade. What was even then only somewhat acceptable in 1974 isn't so acceptable in 2017, and because of that, they aren't going to let a case of Mighty Whitey fly. It doesn't matter to them whether or not Danny Rand was originally white or who was responsible for making him white, or even that his name isn't Asian. Heck, if it isn't a very Asian name, they could have just changed it. What matters to them is having better representation and not letting a white man be the master of an Asian dominated artform over all other Asians, source material be damned. Nothing more, nothing less.

[BentonGrey]

Yes Shogunn, they are.  Several reviews I saw seemed to indicate that they were primed to dislike the show because of the politically incorrect character (though their complaints obviously seemed to go much deeper than that initial bias).  I think that's just silly in context.  The character was created in the 70s, and the show is just adapting it.  Kk is right, and that won't cut any ice with a lot of folks.  Still, it isn't like Marvel's shows are lacking diversity anyway.  You're not dealing with the Silver Age Marvel U where every character is white.  In the Marvel TV universe you've got several minority characters on Agents of SHIELD, Luke Cage headlining a series and working with a mostly black cast, and more.  If they're faithful to the character AND there isn't really a diversity problem AND folks get upset when Asian characters are all about martial arts anyway, it seems like trouble over nothing.  It's not like we're talking about a Kung-Fu situation, where an Asian character is being portrayed by a white guy.

[Ouflah]

where an Asian character is being portrayed by a white guy.

*cough cough* Ancient One *cough*

[spydermann93]

Uhh, excuse me. Swilda Tinton is clearly a female *pushes up glasses nerdily*

[BentonGrey]

Haha, exactly, and that was done in part to avoid the 'old Asian master' sterotype, which just put them in hot water for a DIFFERENT reason.