Huh? Wait a minute. Need some clarification about Force Unleashed plot

[captmorgan72]

I was watching the very cool trailer of Force Unleashed 2 at this site, http://www.lucasarts.com/games/theforceunleashed2/game/index.html.

In the character description of Starkiller it says this, "With his death, Starkiller robbed Vader of the opportunity to destroy the Emperor." I have played Force Unleashed tons of times and I remember Vader telling Starkiller that he never intended to kill the Emperor with him. He only used Starkiller to assemble all the would be leaders of the Rebellion in one place, so he could capture them. Starkiller was only a weapon for Vader to use for this purpose and the destruction of Jedi that escaped order 66.

I never understood Vader's reasoning though. Vader could have destroyed the Emperor with Starkiller at his side and become the new master of the Sith. Why didn't he do this is beyond me.

[Reepicheep]

The emperor was always aware of Starkiller's existence regardless of what Vader told him. It wouldn't have been a surprise attack.

I'd say there is something wrong with the description you picked up.

[captmorgan72]

Then apparently Lucasarts forgot what the story was in Force Unleashed. They wrote that Vader wanted to kill the Emperor with Starkiller. For anyone who played the game, they would know this is obviously not correct.

[JeyNyce]

I think at one point Vader wanted Starkiller to kill the Emperor, but once the Emperor found out Vader threw starkiller into outer space and then revived him.  Remember the Emperor said to Vader to choose your loyalty?

[captmorgan72]

That's true but remember what Vader said to Starkiller when he brought the Imperial forces to capture the Rebel leaders. Starkiller screamed at Vader, "you promised not to interfere." Vader replied, "I lied, as I have from the very beginning". Starkiller then said, "you never intended to kill the Emperor did you?" Vader responded, "no, not with you."

So Vader admitted to Starkiller that his plan was not to kill the Emperor but to use Starkiller to destroy Vader's enemies.

[captmorgan72]

As Force Unleashed 2 gets closer, the original story was still bugging me. I think I understand it now though. Tell me what you guys think.

Vader raising him and training him as his "secret apprentice" was part of his sith training. Learning to manipulate and control him as he was manipulated and controlled by Sidious. At the beginning of Force Unleashed, Vader was still fairly new to his new role as a sith lord. It wasn't that long of time between the events of Episode 3 and the beginning of Force Unleashed. I also believe that Sidious told Vader he knows about Galen and to call him to his ship. Vader and Sidious then create a very risky plan that would convince Galen that Vader still intends to kill the Emperor with Galen at his side. To gather together all the would be leaders of any kind of resistance that could prove a problem for the Empire. Then Vader would capture them all and present them to Sidious. Success would mean Sidious would be pleased with Vader. So this was all a test for Vader.

I don't think now that Vader ever thought about trying to kill Sidious and take his place. He is not ready for that yet. Sidious would easily destroy Vader in a direct assault, so to take him out would require careful planning and manipulation. Things that Sidious is the best at. So this was Sidious training Vader in becoming powerful as a sith lord, powerful enough to eventually take his place.

[Mr. Hamrick]

As Force Unleashed 2 gets closer, the original story was still bugging me. I think I understand it now though. Tell me what you guys think.

Vader raising him and training him as his "secret apprentice" was part of his sith training. Learning to manipulate and control him as he was manipulated and controlled by Sidious. At the beginning of Force Unleashed, Vader was still fairly new to his new role as a sith lord. It wasn't that long of time between the events of Episode 3 and the beginning of Force Unleashed. I also believe that Sidious told Vader he knows about Galen and to call him to his ship. Vader and Sidious then create a very risky plan that would convince Galen that Vader still intends to kill the Emperor with Galen at his side. To gather together all the would be leaders of any kind of resistance that could prove a problem for the Empire. Then Vader would capture them all and present them to Sidious. Success would mean Sidious would be pleased with Vader. So this was all a test for Vader.

I don't think now that Vader ever thought about trying to kill Sidious and take his place. He is not ready for that yet. Sidious would easily destroy Vader in a direct assault, so to take him out would require careful planning and manipulation. Things that Sidious is the best at. So this was Sidious training Vader in becoming powerful as a sith lord, powerful enough to eventually take his place.

One important thing to note here.  Vader is essentially responsible for The Rebel Alliance no matter how indirect that responsibility may be.  Who eventually becomes the two biggest figureheads of The Rebel Alliance?  Luke and Leia Skywalker, the children of Darth Vader.

The "secret apprentice" thing brings a few points to my mind.

Vader really can't be there to be a father for Luke and Leia so he tries to become a father to Starkiller.  Sidious allows it because it he is powerful in the Force and better to have as an ally than enemy. 

Vader hates Sidious.  No matter how loyal Vader is to him, that loyalty is a begrudging one.  What better way to express that then to covertly aid the resistance. 

Galen's loyalties are conflicted through much of the first game.  He is a pawn and he slowly realizes it.  He becomes a pawn because of what he has essentially been raised to be, a jedi killer, coming into conflict with other factors.

Gathering the leaders served different purposes to different parties.  Sidious wants the dead.  Vader wants them dead publicly but also knows that this resistance is protecting his children so only so much can really be done.  The conflicted parts of Vader are essentially his cyborg nature (as programmed by Sidious) and his human love for his kids.

Lots of other factors come into play there.

[captmorgan72]

Vader doesn't know his kids exist yet though. He doesn't discover that until Empire Strikes back and Return of the Jedi.

[Mr. Hamrick]

He knows Padme was pregnant when she died.  And he knows that he will never get to be with those kids as a father.

[Spe-Dog]

Vader did plan and probably always planned to destroy the Emperor but not with Starkiller, but with Luke or presumably any progeny he had with Amidala. Even though he heard from Sidious that she died, it was never confirmed for him that any kids did and that was his endgame. Starkiller was just a tool for use in the interim. Sidious had to know about Starkiller and that is why Vader never could launch this plan to destroy the Sith Lord with him.  Although Sidious has to know that Vader was always going to betray and replace him, or at least try, as that is how the Lords ascend and that has always been the cycle with the Sith.

[JeyNyce]

That's why in the Star Wars universe, you can only have 2 Sith Lords. The student will kill the master and take over.  Lucas never explain when Siths started killing each other

[Mr. Hamrick]

That's why in the Star Wars universe, you can only have 2 Sith Lords. The student will kill the master and take over.  Lucas never explain when Siths started killing each other

Problem is that there has been two Sith Lords in the past.  Specifically in the time frame where "Knights of the Old Republic 1 and 2" take place.  Specifically in KOTR 2, there are three Sith Lords.  You had Darth Traya, Darth Nihilus, and Darth Sion and all three behaved as though they were Sith Lords.  I suspect there was a fourth as all three of them died in the course of the game.   If they were not Sith Lords then what were they?   They were obviously Sith Masters but weren't they identified as Sith Lords in the game as well. They certain were not anyone's apprentice, especially not Traya.

I would say the one master and one pupil thing developed over time but was not an initial set-up.  If that is the case, then there is a very clear explanation of why it likely started to occur stated in one of the KOTR games.  I believe it was the first.  It is basically stated that the Sith were dwindled into very small numbers.  Thus, it is likely that a power grab amongst the remaining was the Sith.  Another issue here is the boundary between "Sith Lord" and "Sith Master" which seems to be a grey area.


Back to the whole Emperor and Starkiller and Vader thing, I've always thought that even though he was Vader's Apprentice that the Emperor wanted him to replace Vader.  Vader was viewed as damaged goods essentially.  Vader wants one thing out of the equation and the Emperor wants another.

[Reepicheep]

I'm pretty certain that Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus were both apprentices of Traya. That may have been over individual timespans, however, because it was not until Nihilus and Sion were both fully trained that the triumvirate was created. It was conflict of interest that lead Nihilus and Sion to conspire against Traya.

I don't think thats a universal rule - as in, the galaxy has only two Sith lords. Just within the master/student relationship. My guess is that its to enforce masters to take on a student, to keep Sith teachings alive. I'd guess that having more than one student (though, as Yoda said, that is an impossible feat on the light side) isn't frowned upon too much, provided that the master has at least one.

Sith being Sith, of course, the rules are likely to be broken. Darth Sion, for example, is void of sith theory knowledge as well as being a lonesome soul so is never written to have undertaken a student. Arguably, Visas Marr was the student of Nihilus. Vader and Starkiller is another example of the rules breaking.

[captmorgan72]

The rule of two was created by Darth Bane. This site explains it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

[JeyNyce]

The rule of two was created by Darth Bane. This site explains it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

You have to warn people about that site........I was there reading information for the last hour & a half.  Very informative site.

[Mr. Hamrick]

The rule of two was created by Darth Bane. This site explains it.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rule_of_Two

You have to warn people about that site........I was there reading information for the last hour & a half.  Very informative site.

Actually, that was the site that I got much of the information I was basing my opinion on from.  The Rule of Two  has not been a constant in the history of The Sith.    The point that I was attempting to make is that the rule has been proven flexible over time and not been a hard and fast rule. 

And Reep, Scion, Nihilus and Traya all considered themselves to be Sith Lords.  However, Traya did make one of them her servant at one point.  They were not equal in power but nonetheless all called themselves that.

I've always found it a bit murky trying to figure out how some the hierarchy worked.  The post Bane "Rule of Two" actually makes it a bit easier.  Even with Vader taking on an apprentice, there was a hard and fast chain of command in place.  Regardless of the motives that the Emperor may have had for allowing it.