Heroes and domestic violence

[HarryTrotter]

This is a bit sensitive so some explaining first.Muh Phoenix is a parody/abridged version of AvX.And pretty much makes fun of everything.Captain pisses on sea otters,Luke Cage is only here to fill a quota etc.AND in every apperence by Hank Pym somebody mentions he likes to beat up girls.Allusion to the infamous scene when he hit Wasp.Eventually Hank responds with: Im not the only one!And the scary part:he really isnt!Spiderman and Reed Richards are also responsible.And Ultimate Hank has this as a hat.So...a trend?

[HarryTrotter]

Or a shorter version.Why in a moment of angst the hero has to hit his wife/girlfriend?Strictly from a storytelling perspective,why was it so widespread?Mostly at Marvel.

[Tomato]

This is going to be a veeeerrrrry sensitive subject for a lot of people, so I recommend everybody posting try to keep a clear head and keep this as clinical as possible.

The short answer to your question is that we've come a long way in terms of what is and is not acceptable in terms of how men can treat women. Once upon a time, it was perfectly acceptable for a husband to beat his wife in public. Again, we've come a looooong way since that point, but many of the comics were written in the 60s. Plus, like it or not, comics (particularly Marvel ones) have always tried to go for a certain amount of shock value... in the same way killing off a character only happens for shock value, hitting one's significant other was taken as something that, especially in the 60s, you could get away with without permanently damaging a character... Unlike what would happen if it occurred today.

The biggest issue with it happening to Hank Pym though, is that Hank really doesn't have the same slew of memorable moments like you see with Reed and Peter. Peter in particular has gone through all kinds of nonsense... he's given birth to himself, for goodness sake. In the wake of all that, it's easy to forget one stupid moment and write it off as a product of its era. But Hank has gone for years without appearing in any marvel book, decades only appearing in only team books, and generally not having as many Hank Pym specific stories. As a result, that one story has gotten blown out of proportion... it's one of the few truly memorable Hank Pym story lines, and as a result writers KEEP HARPING ON IT. From the insanely abusive version of Hank from the Ultimate universe, to the constant back and forth of some writers making him well adjusted only for others making him go back to his cycle of issues... it's a wonder so many people have any fondness for the character left.

[HarryTrotter]

Im speaking strictly about the storytelling angle and such.Hanks moment was in the 80's I belive, and that tends to be flanderized,even by writers.Not that Im defending him.Spidermans was in Clone Saga.I guess you could say it was overshadowed by everything else in the story?But still,it did happen.But,IIRC Reed actually hit Sue on 2 or 3 occasions?

[Cyber Burn]

I've always had an issue with this. Pym has been written as a Character with Mental Health Issues, specifically, Bi-Polar Disorder. Marvel seems to use that as a justification for his behaviors. I'll just say that I find this to be inexcusable, and just because someone has Bi-Polar Disorder, that is NO excuse to ever lay their hands on a woman.

On that note, I'll drop out of this conversation, because it hits too close to home.

[HarryTrotter]

Thats another problem.This is just something too real to use as a story prop.Unlike Alien Invasions,this actually happens.

[Tomato]

Well, having been reading articles on the Hank stuff lately, the sad thing about hank's was that it wasn't really intended to be as bad as it was. The intent of Hank's scene (according to writer Jim Shooter) was that he was supposed to hit her on accident... but the artist (Bob Hall) was relatively new, and the panel he came back with had this wildly exaggerated shot of him just smacking Janet in the face. But due to deadlines and other issues, there wasn't time to have that panel re-drawn... so it went through, and the rest is history. I have a few articles about it I could link to, but it's an easy google search if you're interested.

As for Spiderman, I honestly couldn't remember when his slap had happened, but it totally makes sense that it happened during the clone saga stuff. Again, part of the intent behind it was pure shock value... and that's pretty much all that was happening in the 90s. The Clone Saga is probably the worst expression of that, a story that started out as a simple tale with a planned out ending (Peter would get a happy ending with MJ, and Ben would replace him has Spider Man), but which spiraled out of control into a mess of story extensions and changes (mainly because Spiderman was the only one making a profit for the company) until everyone just wanted the dang thing to end. So them throwing in stuff like Peter hitting MJ to stir up controversy to sell the books was pretty much par for the course in that era. And thanks to that being a plot point in the Clone saga, a series most fans like to pretend never happened, it's something that's just tossed in the giant "stupid spiderman story plot" pile like the missing Spider-baby and the twin Gwen Stacy children.

Reed though... I honestly don't reed enough FF to have context for that one/those ones. If someone a bit more knowledgeable wants to give context for those, that'd be helpful.

[HarryTrotter]

I did read Jim Shooters blog about it.And there is no way to know if it happend like that,IMO.Or Jim is just trying to remove the blame from himself?
Spiderman-I cant recall the exact issue it happens in,but it could probably be googled.In one of his MANY,MANY angsty fallouts during the Clone Saga Peter lashes out at Ben for no real reason.MJ(preagnant at the time,mind you) tries to calm him down.Peter pushes her across the room and into a wall.Then seeing what hes done,storms out in regret.

[Tomato]

So I did a bit of digging since writing the last post (I actually wrote it a bit ago, but it didn't post immediately because Cyber posted first and I had switched tabs and didn't see the review your post message) and honestly... in these cases, context is kind of important. I still want to get a bit more information on reed's slap (which he only did once, but there's a What If where he slaps Franklin too, which is what I think Spade is thinking of), but to give a bit of context:

I mention Jim Shooter's account, but the context of it was also backed up by Bob Hall.

I was I wasn't really a pro at that point. I was a fan with some skill. I could not have drawn the panel the way Jim wanted it. In fact, I remember re-drawing that particular panel several times — not for Jim but because I didn't like the results. The final panel was the point where I gave up and thought — I know how to do Marvel action — I'll make it Marvel action cause nothing else I've done seems right either.

That said, even in the context of the story, Pym wasn't exactly stable. At the time he hit Janet, he was busy building a giant robot that would destroy the Avengers until Hank came in and saved the day by hitting its one tiny weak spot. Like, even if you ignore the slap altogether, HE WAS BUILDING A DEVICE TO BEAT UP THE AVENGERS because they were considering kicking him out (which was occurring because his mental health issues had caused him to use excessive force on a super-villain. Go figure). I'm not trying to put down the wife beating stuff, but there were a lot more issues with the story than just that.

As for Peter, that one... it's really more forgivable in context. Firstly, the hit is a complete accident... frustrated with the constant back and forth of whether he's a clone, Peter begins attacking Ben Riley. Mary Jane tries to pull him off and calm them down, and when Peter tries to shake her off, he underestimates his strength and sends her flying... then the next panel is him reacting with horror at what he's done. What he does next isn't exactly heroic (he leaves because he's afraid of hurting her again... that's reeeeaaaalll nice Peter. Responsibility ftw right there) but it's made clear he didn't mean for it to happen.

Reed's is a bit... iffier, at least from what I can tell. Sue turns evil (as one does) and, rather than building a super-awesome device that turns her brainwaves back to normal or whatever, Reed just smacks her across the face. It's cold, deliberate, and more than a little troubling. Whereas Hank's issues were clearly a result of stress and his mounting mental health issues (which I have a certain experience with... as Cyber says, it's not an excuse for the hit, but I also don't feel like this is a case where Hank was abusing her behind closed doors or anything), Reed Richards, one of the smartest men on the planet, decides the quickest way to deal with his wife turning evil is to hit her in the face. Not a moment that's really defensible.

[HarryTrotter]

For all his talk about responsibility,Peter Parker ALMOST NEVER accepts that his responsible for for something.The situation in question being another example.
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_medium/0/40/1892613-petehitsmj3.jpeg
The page is here,so I leave it to people to decide was it an accident or not for themselves.This was after the infamous test result(which were never really revealed) and Peter was on the edge,I know.But,its not an EXCUSE.

In Reeds case,however,he wasnt enraged.He was calm and calculating and he KNEW what he was doing.Which really makes it much worse.Thats just one incident.Im not an expert on FF,but I alone know a few more.In early stories(and some later ones) Reed is an emotionally abusive jerk and all around sexist.

And there is that one time he shut down his sons brain. 
On a slightly different theme,cracked.com has a list of 6 worst super-hero husbands.
http://www.cracked.com/article_16512_the-6-worst-comic-book-super-husbands.html

ALL 3 persons mentioned here are on the list.Together with Cyclops,Hawkeye and Hulk.Notice a strong Marvel theme. 

[kkhohoho]

To be fair, DC isn't much better. I've been reading some old Flash comics, and while Barry usually didn't have a lot of character flaws, he could get astonishingly petty when it came to his bride-to-be Iris. On one such occasion, he used the Mirror Master's mirrors to spread images of himself all across town, just to force Iris to think about him so much that she had little choice but to get back together with him. And of course, Silver Age Superman and Lois were both douchbags, though I suppose that means they were made for each other.

[HarryTrotter]

To be fair, DC isn't much better. I've been reading some old Flash comics, and while Barry usually didn't have a lot of character flaws, he could get astonishingly petty when it came to his bride-to-be Iris. On one such occasion, he used the Mirror Master's mirrors to spread images of himself all across town, just to force Iris to think about him so much that she had little choice but to get back together with him. And of course, Silver Age Superman and Lois were both douchbags, though I suppose that means they were made for each other.

I agree with all of that.But using heat vision to burn the dinner isnt the same as physical violence.Sure its mean spirited,but Superman didnt hit Lois at least.
I will probably be accused for double standards here but there is only one example that comes the mind.Black Canary hits Green Arrow for starting his own Justice League with Hal Jordan.Ofc,If you know how that worked out,you cant really blame her. XD

[hoss20]

Going back to the original post, the question was: is portraying domestic violence in comics a trend and why was it so widespread, particularly in Marvel comics?

Admittedly, Hank's transgression does continue to be brought up. I do agree with Tomato that context can alter the perception of the this terrible act, as well. Peter did strike out at Mary Jane when he was in a fury while attacking Ben Reilly. It doesn't excuse the act, but it was unintentional and Peter clearly demonstrated remorse. I believe Reed may have slapped Sue on two occasions. On the last, as Tomato cited, Sue was being possessed by the villain, Malice. I don't know the situation, but it could very well have been that she was wreaking havoc and Reed didn't really have time to build some sort of mind-altering device. Perhaps those who own the comics with these acts in question could enlighten those of us who only know of these things via the internet.

The main point I'm trying to make is the most recent of these episodes occurred some twenty years ago, with Reed's transgression happening thirty years ago, and Hank's a few years before that. Believe me, I subscribe to the fact that doing this just one time is once too many. I'm merely asking why an act that has taken place less than a handful of times in the 50+ years of Marvel Comics, with the last time being decades ago, is being referenced as widespread or a possible trend.

Guys, please feel free to update me on the frequency of the type of behavior being discussed, as I don't collect as avidly as I used to. If this type of stuff has been happening more recently and more frequently, then it will certainly change my opinion.

[JeyNyce]

Going back to the original post, the question was: is portraying domestic violence in comics a trend and why was it so widespread, particularly in Marvel comics?

Admittedly, Hank's transgression does continue to be brought up. I do agree with Tomato that context can alter the perception of the this terrible act, as well. Peter did strike out at Mary Jane when he was in a fury while attacking Ben Reilly. It doesn't excuse the act, but it was unintentional and Peter clearly demonstrated remorse. I believe Reed may have slapped Sue on two occasions. On the last, as Tomato cited, Sue was being possessed by the villain, Malice. I don't know the situation, but it could very well have been that she was wreaking havoc and Reed didn't really have time to build some sort of mind-altering device. Perhaps those who own the comics with these acts in question could enlighten those of us who only know of these things via the internet.

The main point I'm trying to make is the most recent of these episodes occurred some twenty years ago, with Reed's transgression happening thirty years ago, and Hank's a few years before that. Believe me, I subscribe to the fact that doing this just one time is once too many. I'm merely asking why an act that has taken place less than a handful of times in the 50+ years of Marvel Comics, with the last time being decades ago, is being referenced as widespread or a possible trend.

Guys, please feel free to update me on the frequency of the type of behavior being discussed, as I don't collect as avidly as I used to. If this type of stuff has been happening more recently and more frequently, then it will certainly change my opinion.

Outside of the Pym issue years ago, I haven't even notice domestic violence in comics, unless the person is a villain (Joker/ Harley).  Have anybody notice this in comics lately?

[HarryTrotter]

Could be like Tomato said,that Peter and Reed have a LOT more "events" to them.Its easier to bring up the deal with devil.Which ironicly erased this situation.
And sadly,to some fans,this is the most notable thing Hank has done.And writers just cant avoid touching something so dramatic in the characters history.
And my earlier point,nobody call out Reed for this,yet in his case it definitly wasnt an accident.
In a more general sense,most of the heroes dont have families so issues doesnt come up that often.Some have suffered it growing up.And many have encountered it.I could probably name a few Batman examples...

[kkhohoho]

I could probably name a few Batman examples...

Indeed.

[HarryTrotter]

^I meant more like where he helps the victims of abuse.
But,yeah,Batman has a few moments himself.CoughASBARcough.

[kkhohoho]

But,yeah,Batman has a few moments himself.CoughASBARcough.

Are you kidding? Batman had nothing to do with that. Blame Crazy Steve and Dick Grayson Age 12; they're the ones responsible for that POS. (And Bonkers Betty didn't really help matters...)

[HarryTrotter]

^Another Linkara fan,I see. XD
Okay,a serious example.The City of Crime touches upon many social issues in Gotham,domestic violence being one of them.You should read it if you havent.Its one of the darkest Batman stories.For example Penguin and Mr Freeze were selling babies.

[BentonGrey]

^Another Linkara fan,I see. XD
Okay,a serious example.The City of Crime touches upon many social issues in Gotham,domestic violence being one of them.You should read it if you havent.Its one of the darkest Batman stories.For example Penguin and Mr Freeze were selling babies.

Annnnnnnd that sentence is a good synecdoche of why I don't read modern mainstream comics....

[SickAlice]

I think it boils down to something I iterate often about entertainment creators not always being suitable to bringing sensitive issues into the arts and falling short, best intentions and such. Marvel does do it more, lets be real but that's the whole dingy true to life real world gamble was always been their selling point so they'll push it harder. DC isn't clean here either though especially in the early days you know? I mean jeez how about the old Superman and Captain America " Slap A Jap " War Bonds books huh? But Marvel just tries to push the big issues to give characters depth especially when its much needed. Reed was a different scenario though and a little too much of a gimme. That was a situation like the War Bonds books where it was era driven much going with the really old example your using here. It's been a long time since Reed was such a, well pig and since Sue was such a well, Sue!

It took a lot for them to redeem any of that and move forward but the point is they have done so. I think that's maybe the important thing. I mean if a person goes there whole as a Puritan more power to them but the whole point of pushing an agenda and educating the masses about terrible things isn't to change the ones who are already on the right side of the fence but to change the ones who are in the wrong. Likewise the country of these comics origins is plagued with with the same backsliding traits as the comics reflected then so tit for tat. Why the hero though is pretty easy: Because the depth of the violation isn't concrete when it's applied to a villain since doing bad things is their stock and trade. Having a bad guy do it just polarizes the intended impact on the reader. Like why couldn't we say bring up Bullseye in this, amiright? He's pretty cruel to women. Or Sabretooth? Or that time Venom raped someone? And so on. Because you wouldn't read that and be thinking about how wrong it is just what a typical scum the villain character is. But true to life is in the real world it's not some cackling assassin doing these because it's their trade, not some man-beast or alien creature. It's a person who looks and acts like you and me and goes to work and has kids that strikes their loved ones or verbally abuses them, or hurts someone or murders someone. We don't have dramatic super villains in real life short of an imagined archetype to shift blame on when people lose hope for a better world and are in denial. Hence the gravity of such actions.

To say that's the angle in story telling anyways, the problem as I say again is all too often maybe the person telling the tale isn't the person qualified to do so and the end result is flubbed and additionally these aren't people, they're products at the end of the day. Bugs Bunny used to smoke and drink you know of course but they just glossed it and changed him with whatever was p.c. for the times because $. So what're going to do? It's not going anywhere so like capes I say good with the bad for the things you enjoy, in this case comics. Also have to note Bentons comment which is you'll find more agenda pushing in mainstream comics than otherwise because there's just always going to be a lot of dictation and marketing handed down in those products. Realistically they should show these characters attending anger management classes and making an honest effort to atone for their shortcomings, after all it's what I think a real hero would do but then again " sell sell " and I'm certain corporate decides people aren't up to reading comics like that anymore than ones about Tony Stark in twelve step programs or Wolverine working to pay child support. It is what it is.

[kkhohoho]

^Another Linkara fan,I see. XD
Okay,a serious example.The City of Crime touches upon many social issues in Gotham,domestic violence being one of them.You should read it if you havent.Its one of the darkest Batman stories.For example Penguin and Mr Freeze were selling babies.

Annnnnnnd that sentence is a good synecdoche of why I don't read modern mainstream comics....

Actually, I did a quick check on Wikipedia, and 'City of Crime' was written a good 10 or so years ago. So it's not that modern. Not really a big deal, but I figured I might as well point that out.

[HarryTrotter]

Ofc,I was talking about some early stories of the FF,where Reed is a total douchebag to Sue.Seriously,all their dialogue is Shut up,woman!But different era,different values,like some said.
Anyway,problem is that in some cases one thing overshadows EVERYTHING else the character did.
IDK,Mephisto was enemy of Ghost Rider and Dr Strange for 40 years,but people mostly remember him for undoing Spidermans marriage.Or first thing about Roy Harper?Heroin addiction,right?

[kkhohoho]

Or first thing about Roy Harper?Heroin addiction,right?

"MY WARD IS A JUNKIE!"

Anyway, it's like in real life; your most (in)infamous moments are going to be the ones that define you to the general public, regardless of whatever else you've done unless you've had enough other notable moments under their belt to make up for that. Just look at Nixon; he did some good things, like his relations with China, but then the outcome of Veitnam along with Watergate happened, and he's been demonized ever since. (Perhaps rightly so, but who knows?)

Going back to fictional examples though, (although Nixon does -- or did -- exist in the comics, as a Supervillain no less,) let's talk about Wanda, the Scarlet Witch. She was a classic, core member of the Avengers, and it seemed like there was nothing that could take away from that. And then John Byrne got his hands on her, axing her children and turning her into a crazy nutter, and while later writers would do their best to forget all about it, Bendis followed up on it a good 15 years later, turning her crazy again, and not only had her 'disassemble' the Avengers, but also had her utter three little words ("No More Mutants",) while he was at it. And these days, that's what she's mostly remembered for, with Avengers AoU only beginning to net her back her reputation. It's sad to say, but these are the only notable storylines she's had aside from her romance with the Vision, and that was trashed under the rug by none other than Byrne, and so these are what tend to define her rather than most everything else she's done.  I can't remember who said it, but there's an old saying that goes something like this: 'Reputation takes a lifetime to build, but only seconds to destroy.'

[daglob]

Sometimes it's like the creative team say "This'll be a GREAT story!", and, while it might be good, they don't  think about what the story means for the future of the character-I mean the LLLOOOONNNGGG term future of the character (who would have thought that Hank Pym would still be around 50 years later). It's why we end up with crisises, zero hours, 52s, and so on. The flip side is to write stories that don't really change the character much, have no real long term effects on the character, and, while entertaining perhaps, aren't really relevant to anything. See DC in the '60s (considering I'm stuck in the Silver Age, that isn't really a complaint).

[kkhohoho]

See DC in the '60s

Unless you're the Doom Patrol, in which case you don't give a rats' arse about what the rest of DC is doing and just do whatever the heck you want. (Which is part of why it was so awesome.) Heck, I even think its' portrayal of Elasti-girl bucked the trends present in most female characters of the era, and while she was a bit boring, she made up for that by actually being kick-arse, and being a strong-willed woman who wouldn't take no crap. (Well, compared to most other female characters of the era, anyway.)

[HarryTrotter]

For its time,Elasti-girls portrayal was actually pretty progressive.
And some thing are just too tempting for the writers not to touch I guess.Hey,Aunt May died once and Peter came to terms with it.But the NEXT time she dies...
That sounds weird when I write it down. XD

[daglob]

See DC in the '60s

Unless you're the Doom Patrol, in which case you don't give a rats' arse about what the rest of DC is doing and just do whatever the heck you want. (Which is part of why it was so awesome.) Heck, I even think its' portrayal of Elasti-girl bucked the trends present in most female characters of the era, and while she was a bit boring, she made up for that by actually being kick-arse, and being a strong-willed woman who wouldn't take no crap. (Well, compared to most other female characters of the era, anyway.)

I should have said "most" of DC. The Doom Patrol, Metamorpho, and Plastic Man were my favorite DC comics. I also have fond memories of The Metal Men. Can you imagine Mento actually hitting Elasti-Girl.

And living to tell about it, anyway.

There is a kind of fantasy world involved in many John Wayne movies (which I enjoy, and consider as realistic as any Warner Brothers cartoon).