about watchmen

[bearded]

what do we think about 'before watchmen'?
i have an urge to boycott it, due to alan moore's strong feelings, but man, do those covers look good...

[Panther_Gunn]

what do we think about 'before watchmen'?
i have an urge to boycott it, due to alan moore's strong feelings, but man, do those covers look good...

If we boycotted everything according to his strong feelings, there'd probably be very little we could entertain ourselves with.  Hasn't he turned into the old grump of comicdom?  (not saying he doesn't have a reason to feel slighted, just sayin'...)

[bearded]

i've read and listened to his arguments, and they sort of make sense, in that it's a piece of work unto itself, and anything derivative will weaken it. at the same time, the characters are not, honestly entirely original. they are derivatives themselves. i think it would be great if dc made the original's with the same stories, call it 'watch these men'.
also, if moore hates the idea of people using his characters, how can he explain league of extraordinary? is it cause they are all public domain?

[Podmark]

I'm pretty indifferent about it right now. It doesn't bother me that DC is making them, but I'm not planning to pick any of them up right away. If I hear any are good I may get a trade.

[Cyber Burn]

I'm pretty indifferent about it right now. It doesn't bother me that DC is making them, but I'm not planning to pick any of them up right away. If I hear any are good I may get a trade.

I would Consider the Comedian or Rorshach, if finances didn't stink so bad.

[murs47]

I'm pretty indifferent about it right now. It doesn't bother me that DC is making them, but I'm not planning to pick any of them up right away. If I hear any are good I may get a trade.

Ditto.

[detourne_me]

Not once LXG, but also Moore's Lost Girls turned public domain characters into pornography.

As a selfish anarchist I have no problem with DC's or Moore's recent actions.  I'll probably pick up the Darwyn Cooke/Amanda Connor book because I love those creators

[lugaru]

I'm not really offended by the concept, but in no rush to read either. I'll get to it when it is done and the hype has blown over.

[laughing paradox]

Read it, enjoyed it. Silhouette's vignette was probably the best.

[DrMike2000]

The Silk Spectre looks interesting because its a move away from the grim and gritty feel that made Watchmen famous. That and I love Amanda Conner's work from Power Girl and Terra.

I was toying with the idea of getting Minutemen too, but the preview didn't do it for me.

I wouldn't consider boycotting them for Moore's sake, or feel that they cheapen the original work in any way. I'll probably have a look at a few of them and judge them on their own merits.

[deano_ue]

alan moores a bloody nut, yes he has produced some excellent work but he lost a lot of credibility when he just decided to rant and insult rather than get a point

his main argument is about how companies do not respect creators feeling and rights with before watchman, i'm sorry mr. moore but i'm sure the creators of dorthery, alice, wendy, peter pan etc would absolutely  love the lost girls

[BentonGrey]

Ha, excellent TUE.  That's a good point.

For my part...well....I don't really think these stories are a great idea. The original Watchmen is an incredibly important book, culturally, but it's not a book I really enjoy. It's amazingly well written and illustrated, and the story itself is pretty incredible. In fact, it is a great story, but it isn't a good story, not in the sense of an edifying view of literature (which I happen to hold). I reread it before the movie came out, and I was struck by how well-crafted it was, but I was also struck with the bone-deep sadness that its relativistic message carries. It is, along with many other things, a lament for a Platonic view of the world, with concrete good and evil. It is a surrender to the idea that we're all alone, and we have no meaning but that which we craft for ourselves. It's Matthew Arnold and John Paul Satre all rolled up in one.

I don't think that anyone in that list of creators, except perhaps Darwyn Cooke, can achieve that level of meaning and depth, and I'm far from certain that anyone should really try.

However, regardless of my misgivings on the subject, or Mr. Moore's, for that matter, DC is publishing these books.  I have to say, the interview Prev. recently posted with Darwyn Cooke is a fairly excellent example of why, all other concerns aside, I'm not terribly interested in these books:

"In his other mainstream superhero work such as The New Frontier, Catwoman and The Spirit, he hasn't delved too deeply into violence and sexuality. However, with Minutemen Cooke's enjoying dealing with homosexuality, sadism, opportunism, greed, self-interest and, "because it has to have it in order for me to be passionate about it, somewhere in the kernel of it is the heroic ideal," he says."

Yeah...no thanks, real life is full of enough sadism, opportunism, greed, and self-interest for my tastes.  I'll stick with four color worlds that present a brighter canvas.

[detourne_me]

It's not that bad BG.  Darwyn is still playing it pretty safe... No more titilating than the Catwoman he did with Brubaker.

Spoiler

The bit about homosexuality so far was just Nite Owl's admiration for the silhoutte, regardless of her sexuality she was one of the most upstanding members of the minutemen.
I do think it's nearly impossible to get to that same level of craftsmanship too though,  the issue starts out well, invoking some of the symmetrical imagery found in Watchmen...but that quickly falls to lots and lots of exposition.

Although...that much exposition is pretty true to character for Hollis Mason (since he wrote a tell-all and everything). I just hope we'll get some more POV issues from other minutemen later.

It will be interesting to see how everything plays out.
hmm, speaking of 'playing out' and Watchmen.... I might go play The End is Nigh again. heh, see how it stacks up to Arkham City.

[MJB]

I am whole heatedly in favor of creator rights. BUT in this case I feel that DC can do what they want. I'm sad that they decided to leech onto Moore/Gibbons' work but that is the nature of the beast. I agree with others that Moore really doesn't have much ground to stand on after he did LXG & Lost Girls.

I, for one, will not be buying these books. That is not a "boycott" as it is a necessity. I haven't purchased comics for a while due to the price hike.

I'm interested in the story as a whole but I'm not going to hold my breath for a masterpiece.

[Figure Fan]

I'm interested in the story as a whole but I'm not going to hold my breath for a masterpiece.

Ditto.

[DrMike2000]

I guess I'm with Benton to some degree.

I'm not averse to sex or adult themes with superheroes, far from it, and the way Darwyn Cooke handles these things is very tasteful and not at all salacious.
But I'm kind of turned off by the Watchmen universe as a whole. I'd forgotten just how grubby and miserable it was. Sure, there's the ride down into despair in the original series, and then the ray of hope with Doc realising just how amazing human life is, Malcolm the psych refuting Rorscach's miserable world-view, but its still not a lot of fun.
Cooke does a great job with attempting to resuce the characters such as Silhouette and Mothman, who were a one-note lesbian and alchoholic respectively in the originals, and depcited here as courageous admirable individuals with a bit more depth, and promise of more to come.
Likewise, Silk Spectre does a great job of fleshing out the relationship between Laurie and her Mom, but its such a drab world.

Give me a complex world full of time travel and gorillas with jetpacks anyday. Thats what I come here for.

[detourne_me]

I understand your POV Doc. I was just thinking to myself that I've bought all of the number ones so far and there's still three more left.  That 7 titles, and if they all run longer than two issues it's longer than the original Watchmen already.
I'll give the rest of the titles a shot before I start culling from the herd.

The series is quite miserable, and there was a bit in the Nite Owl issue that really hammered home the fact.
During the first meeting of the Crimebusters, Captain Metropolis was pairing up heroes to talk to each other/break the ice. And rorshach's slip was originally called to be paired up with Doc Manhattan. But big blue rearranged the letters to be Silk Spectre.
I don't remember this happening in the original, but it really nails the creepy factor of doc manhattan perving on Laurie while Janey is next to him.

And oh yeah... The pirate comics in the back? Waste of space.  I'll read em all in one go when the first series is complete, but really without the context of the newspaper stand and the kid reading a comic.  These just don't make any sense.

[docdelorean88]

alan moores a bloody nut, yes he has produced some excellent work but he lost a lot of credibility when he just decided to rant and insult rather than get a point

his main argument is about how companies do not respect creators feeling and rights with before watchman, i'm sorry mr. moore but i'm sure the creators of dorthery, alice, wendy, peter pan etc would absolutely  love the lost girls

I agree ENTIRELY with this. The man is a legend for a reason, and i agree that culturally Watchmen is a cultural breakthrough, but as great of a story it is, i dislike it in a superhero context. Though, anymore i feel Moore disagrees with things just for kicks. The man disagrees with everything these days. THAT being said, i really would love to see the characters cleaned up a bit.  Nothing wrong with controversial topics, but there is a way to do it. For instance, in JL: Identity Crisis, the scene with Dr. Light and Sue... executed with incomparable taste. Want to do a drug bust plot line, fine. Murder, ok. Idk, something about watchmen rubbed me the wrong way, but the above statement is entirely correct (in my opinion).

[bearded]

i've just read some of moore's other work, top ten, smax, tom strong, promethea.
wow.
that is some really twisted stuff. first five issues of top ten is amazing. and then, wow. he is a dirty dirty old man. that stuff makes lost girls look innocent. am i overreacting?

[DrMike2000]

Alan Moore's never shied away from writing about sex, Bearded. He's said as much in his interviews, that you can't really get to grips with a fully rounded character without exploring their sexuality. His work on Swamp Thing is a great example of this - he tastefully explores how a vegetative entity ermm, does it, and how people react, and writes a really good tale with some excellent political points in it.
I'd say the same with Promethea, and I guess Watchmen.

Top Ten, however, came across a just a bit too vitriolic. He portrays the Justice League analogues as a child sex ring with their junior sidekicks, and it just comes across as "Raaar! I hate superheroes, they're all pervs! Batman and Robin, whats up with that!?! etc..."

So I wouldn't call him a dirty old man. I think hes got a lot of interesting stuff to say on the subject. But Top Ten felt like we'd caught him on a very bad day, writing something defamatory without any trace of his usual humour.