Ok this is just silly...

AfghanAnt · October 21, 2008, 11:15:39 AM

[spoiler]

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So there appears to be a Black Pantheress coming...while I am a fan of FemLoki, that is a male character as female that made sense because Loki has always been a shape-shifting, sexually ambiguous character in Norse myth however with Ms. Sinister (urgh...) and Black Pantheress (double urgh...), I really don't know what they are thinking.

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 11:19:40 AM

Yeah we got too many female versions coming out right now. Also why is Hudlin still writing Black Panther?

Kinda like the costume though. Reminds me of Batgirl.

AfghanAnt · October 21, 2008, 11:44:45 AM

Quote from: Podmark on October 21, 2008, 11:19:40 AM
Yeah we got too many female versions coming out right now. Also why is Hudlin still writing Black Panther?

Kinda like the costume though. Reminds me of Batgirl.

I agree it is a costume look character but really another female counterpart of a male character? Urgh...

murs47 · October 21, 2008, 11:51:13 AM

I wonder if it's T'Challa's sister(forgot her name) or Storm.

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 11:54:29 AM

Quote from: murs47 on October 21, 2008, 11:51:13 AM
I wonder if it's T'Challa's sister(forgot her name) or Storm.

One of the comments in the newsarama article said it will be his sister. This was probably speculation though.

Mystik · October 21, 2008, 11:55:38 AM

well if tchalla doesn't die (maybe he joins the x-men or avengers) and its t'challa's sister (not storm), I 'll be okay with it (since they've been setting her up to be the next panther since issue 1)

why all the hate on ladies ? I say bring on the women, -especially when its a natural progression story wise (panther) or when its completely in character (loki)

AfghanAnt · October 21, 2008, 11:58:58 AM

Ok, I agree with you Mystic. If she has been built up to take his place since Issue 1 or in character, sure why not, but Ms. Sinister? Can someone explain that for me? The last issue of Carey's X-Men was the one when Xavier became Sinister. Is she his female copy like X-23 or she just Sinister who's genes became female?

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 11:59:41 AM

Quote from: Mystik on October 21, 2008, 11:55:38 AM
why all the hate on ladies ? I say bring on the women, -especially when its a natural progression story wise (panther) or when its completely in character (loki)

I don't think it's anything against ladies in particular, just how often it's been happening in the last few months. Generally I actually like female versions of males (and vice versa).

Lady Bullseye
Loki
Ana Kravenoff
Black Panther
Ms Sinister
anyone else I'm missing?

Previsionary · October 21, 2008, 12:07:04 PM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 11:58:58 AM
Ok, I agree with you Mystic. If she has been built up to take his place since Issue 1 or in character, sure why not, but Ms. Sinister? Can someone explain that for me? The last issue of Carey's X-Men was the one when Xavier became Sinister. Is she his female copy like X-23 or she just Sinister who's genes became female?

Ms. Sinister is hard to explain because we "just" got her name a few issues ago. Everyone thought she was the old croon who was trying to kill Xavier, but that's out. I assume more info will be given either during Original Sin or afterwards. I'm fine with her as long as she doesn't suddenly get involved with Cyclops, or even worse, try to seduce him. That's just a horrible image!

Mystik · October 21, 2008, 12:09:35 PM

Quote from: Podmark on October 21, 2008, 11:59:41 AM
Quote from: Mystik on October 21, 2008, 11:55:38 AM
why all the hate on ladies ? I say bring on the women, -especially when its a natural progression story wise (panther) or when its completely in character (loki)

I don't think it's anything against ladies in particular, just how often it's been happening in the last few months. Generally I actually like female versions of males (and vice versa).

Lady Bullseye
Loki
Ana Kravenoff
Black Panther
Ms Sinister
anyone else I'm missing?

that's understandable, didn't know there was a new kraven (sister,wife or daughter?) and i dont know what the heck is up with sinster (new char or same just fem?)

its like my beef with everyone having kids all of a sudden (batman,superman,hulk,wolverine wildcat etc)

Previsionary · October 21, 2008, 12:13:22 PM

Mmmk, I just thumbed through my book again. Ms. Sinister is Amanda Mueller who was in that Xavier storyline (I checked 5 sites for confirmation). I guess I blocked it out (though she calls herself Claudine). She-kraven is Kraven's daughter or something. There was a family tree in her final issue (incorrect though).

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 12:18:01 PM

Ana Kravenof is the daughter of Kraven. I worked out the family tree back when the issue came out.

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 12:18:57 PM

Quote from: Previsionary on October 21, 2008, 12:13:22 PM
There was a family tree in her final issue (incorrect though).

What was incorrect about the family tree? Didn't look too cloesly at it.

AfghanAnt · October 21, 2008, 12:22:05 PM

Wait so Ms. Sinister is Cyke's great-granny? WTF?

Also what happened to Kraven's son?

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 12:23:56 PM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on October 21, 2008, 12:22:05 PM
Wait so Ms. Sinister is Cyke's great-granny? WTF?

Also what happened to Kraven's son?

One's been dead since the clone saga, another died in a mini a few years ago I think, and Al Kravenoff is still around.

Previsionary · October 21, 2008, 12:26:54 PM

I don't remember what was fully incorrect, but I remember a bunch of fans going on and on about the dates and how it made She-kraven a 12-14 year old girl. Things I wouldn't pay attention to. ^^

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 03:58:21 PM

Quote from: Previsionary on October 21, 2008, 12:26:54 PM
I don't remember what was fully incorrect, but I remember a bunch of fans going on and on about the dates and how it made She-kraven a 12-14 year old girl. Things I wouldn't pay attention to. ^^

Oh yeah I noticed that. I just thought thats how old she was.

Talavar · October 21, 2008, 04:10:29 PM

So, Ms. Sinister is the old lady from the recent X-Men Origins storyline? Her plan worked then?

I'm personally not a big fan of female versions of male characters - or vice versa - can't we be a little more creative than that? I mean, Barbara Gordon's far more interesting as Oracle than she was as Batgirl, and I've got no love for Supergirl, or other Batgirls - let alone the recent rash of characters like this. Marketing trumps creative interests though, so we're stuck with them.

AfghanAnt · October 21, 2008, 04:25:57 PM

I think female counterpoints are important in storytelling as long as it not a gimmick. Sometimes they serve at the young, naive sidekick (original Kara Jor-El Supergirl concept) or they are only a counterpart in name and completely independent (Jessica Drew Spiderwoman).

One of my all time favorite female inspired male character is Supergirl because it is so natural that this character would exist. She is everything Kal is not. She is flawed, she is doubtful, she is more alien and human all at the same time. I especially loved PAD's Supergirl because she wasn't his cousin, she wasn't in his shadow, she was her own woman (women) in her own right who believe in Superman's code. While I have always loved Superman more, I've always connected more to Supergirl because she did mess up while Superman could do no wrong. This is also the reason I hate the new Supergirl. She messes up because she wants to, she isn't perfect because she'd rather not be like her cousin. To me this is Supergirl only in name not in spirit. She could careless about the Never Ending Battle, she wants to hang out and hit on cute super powered boys, she is the opposite of what a Supergirl should be.

I do agree with you about Babs being Oracle but look what had to be done to make her more interesting. She had to be beaten and crippled to be a good character (a recurring theme in comics toward female counterparts). In a way, the female characters are stronger than the male character because they have been beaten, abused, and depowered but still they are heroes (unless you are Black Mary Marvel then you are just turning a good girl bad to make her edgey).

Talavar · October 21, 2008, 04:46:13 PM

They didn't have to do those things to Babs to make her Oracle - they needed to do them to explain why she just didn't keep being Batgirl. If you take 'Batgirl' out of the equation, and took Barbara Gordon, a female librarian who was super-smart and good with computers as your starting point, it's not mandatory that she even be paralyzed. If you feel that adds something to the character, well, it could have been an earlier accident or condition, but most people aren't capable of jumping rooftop to rooftop and beating up hardened criminals anyway, male or female, so it's not really necessary to the character (as I've described her) that she be confined to the chair.

AfghanAnt · October 21, 2008, 04:52:41 PM

Quote from: Talavar on October 21, 2008, 04:46:13 PM
They didn't have to do those things to Babs to make her Oracle - they needed to do them to explain why she just didn't keep being Batgirl. If you take 'Batgirl' out of the equation, and took Barbara Gordon, a female librarian who was super-smart and good with computers as your starting point, it's not mandatory that she even be paralyzed. If you feel that adds something to the character, well, it could have been an earlier accident or condition, but most people aren't capable of jumping rooftop to rooftop and beating up hardened criminals anyway, male or female, so it's not really necessary to the character (as I've described her) that she be confined to the chair.

I strongly disagree. Some of her appeal stems from where she has been and what she knows as well as what has happened and what she has become. There are tons of characters who are just like Babs but what makes her story unique is she was Batgirl and it was taken away and she had to find other ways to fight crime. If anything she is a good example of have a female counterpart can be better characters to write and humanize then crazy, crime-obsessed male counterparts.

However, I can not say the same about Batgirls after her.

Edit:
Another reason why Babs is fundamentally a better character than her male counterpart (sorry diehard Bats fan), they were both crippled and while he gave up and past the torch on, he also brooded. Babs learned a new skill and reinvented herself. It is so hard to reinvent male characters because comic fans go apes ("You gave Superman electric powers, that dumb" or "Only Bruce Wayne is Batman"). You can't touch them and even though you can tell a really good story with them they don't grow and are doomed to repeat previous battles and histories.

Talavar · October 21, 2008, 06:19:53 PM

Yes, they can do those interesting character things with side-characters that marketing will never allow them to do with the core characters - but marketing still wins the day. There's a reason all of the Robin's - excluding Spoiler, who DC themselves basically don't count - are virtually identical (male, white, black hair) and the reason is selling Robin merchandise. And Supergirl went through a lot of interesting changes, only to get them all negated when editorial wanted to simplify the brand.

I agree that writers can tell more interesting stories with the side-characters based on the originals, but they're still hampered by marketing constraints, and they could tell the same stories equally well - or better - with original characters, and without diluting the original. Superman being the last surviving member of a doomed race has a lot more weight to it when Supergirl, Power Girl (who I preferred not being Kryptonian), Krypto, and half a dozen other survivors are hanging around Earth as well.

If DC hadn't done something else with the Barbara Gordon character that generated revenue, she'd probably be Batgirl again, magically cured or the gunshot written out of history, or there'd be a situation with the Batgirls like there is with the Spider-women over at Marvel: 2 or 3 concurrent characters with the same name but otherwise unrelated. Instead of that, they just make a new Batgirl, and Babs gets to be Oracle.

If Oracle was first being created as an original character, I dont' think it would be necessary for her to have been Batgirl. Some other element of tragedy could work equally well - the element of reinvention that you like could be held over without her having been Batgirl.

However good the stories may end up being, characters who owe their existence solely to trying to (badly) market the same character to girls or a company registering a trademark just so their corporate rival can't (Wonder Man anyone?) bother me.

Podmark · October 21, 2008, 08:30:09 PM

I certainly get what you're saying Talavar, but seeing as Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Superboy (Kon-El), Wonder Girl (Cassie), Spider-Girl all rate among my favorite characters I really don't have a problem with it. End of the day if I like the character then thats enough.

Also I'd argue that without the strenght of a backstory of being Batgirl in the past, a original Oracle character would have long since faded into obscurity. Her deep connection to the Bat mythos has a allowed her to carry a team book based around her for far longer than I would have imagined.

BWPS · October 22, 2008, 07:14:32 AM

Everyone knows Brian Michael Bendis (or whatever he's calling himself this week) totally just downloads fan fiction and says, "Eh, good enough." That's why Loki and Black Panther are women!

AfghanAnt · October 22, 2008, 07:54:47 AM

Quote from: BWPS on October 22, 2008, 07:14:32 AM
Everyone knows Brian Michael Bendis (or whatever he's calling himself this week) totally just downloads fan fiction and says, "Eh, good enough." That's why Loki and Black Panther are women!

JMS made Loki a woman and Hudlin has been planning for T'Challa's sister to become the new Black Panther for a while.