"Heroic" Characters

[Blitzgott]

Whose characters do you think should have the heroic attribute? That's something that I always had trouble handling, since almost all heroes had their special moment where they showed why they deserved to be called a "hero". Then again, I don't think ALL characters should have the heroic attribute. It would only serve to take away it's value and meaning.

Off the top of my head, here are some of the heroes I gave the heroic attribute to and why:

Colossus: I never really saw Colossus as much of an "heroic" character, despite his flawless antics. But, when I stopped to think about it for a moment, the dude sacrificed himself to save all mutant-kind. I think that's one damn heroic act, and therefore I believe he deserve the extra hero point.

Cyclops: The main reason I gave him the heroic attribute is because he is the field leader of the X-Men. I believe that any leader must have something inspirational about him that gains the respect and confidence of his peers, specially if you lead a group like the X-Men.

Captain America: Now this one was easy. Cap is pretty much the living manifestation of heroism. His actions speak for themselves for why he deserves an extra hero point. In fact, I gave him TWO extra hero points just because he doesn't have any super-human powers and, yet, fights off the same threats as the big guns without fear. That, in my book, is classified as "double heroic".

Spider-Man: I gave him the heroic attribute because of his flawless antics and that "with great power comes great responsibility" "phylosophy" he follows to a fault, and also because of the fact that he does his best to protec the very people who consider him an anomaly and either are always talking trash about him in the press or otherwise or just plain trying to screw him over.

Daredevil: It would just seem odd if the "Man Without Fear" didn't have the heroic attribute.

Batman: Batman is, more or less, DC's Captain America, so it wouldn't be appropriate if he didn't recieve the heroic attribute. He has the guts to face off the same threats as the big guns and that indomitable willpower that pulls him through any pinch.

Superman: Superman sacrificed himself for the good of the planet more times than Invisible Woman changed her haircut. He is also the most "goody two shoes" hero EVER. I don't see any reason for why he shouldn't recieve an extra hero point.

Wildcat: He is a middle-aged dude who neither has super-human NOR peak-human physical attributes, no super-powers, no super-gadgets, and yet is not afraid to go against any threat using only his wits and his fists. I think that more than qualifies him as an "heroic" character (if not a foolish character).

Well, that's about all I can remember. What are your thoughts on this? Do these heroes I mentioned deserve an extra hero point? And what other heroes should have it as well?

[detourne_me]

I like your rationale,  but i just don't see the game mechanics working that way,  I usually only give extra hero points to characters that miraculously come back from the brink of death,  so usually spider-man, batman, and wolverine get the hero points,  so do some villains that just never seem to stay down.  but i think the most deserving of the extra hero points has to be The Thing, both in being an actual hero that never gives up, and because it makes sense in game mechanics, the Rock type is less defensive than say the Metal Type,  and Ben always does take a licking when he faces off against guys like the Hulk or Thanos,  but he always gets back up.

[UnkoMan]

I tend to view the extra hero point in the same way, detourne. Fellas who just don't know when to quit.

[Blitzgott]

I see your point, but I like giving the heroic attribute more meaning that what you described. I simply couldn't EVER give it to any villain, no matter who. That's because, the way I see it, this attribute represents more than just stubborness and unwillingness to say down, but also a trait in the personality of the character. See the Freedom Force heroes, for example. Tombstone is undead. If we followed your way of thinking, then he should have at least an extra hero point, because it certainly is not easy to put down someone who has already died. But no, the dude only has the standard single hero point that every character, hero or otherwise, starts with. Now see with me, if you will, some of the characters that have the heroic attribute: Law and Order, all the WW2 heroes, and Minuteman. There are more, but those are the main representatives and more akin to the point I'm trying to make. Minuteman is the very personification of the american fighting spirit; Law and Order represent their namesakes, and the three WW2 heroes are humans with great courage and sense of patriotism. All of them have reasons in their backstory to have the heroic attribute. So, all in all, the heroic attribute, at least for the folks at Irrational, is meant for TRUE heroes. I like to think the same way. There's a much simpler way to simulate a hero or villain being way too tough or stubborn to bring down: give him high endurance. The heroic attributes is supposed to simulate an inner reserve of strength that only heroes who have a great sense of responsibility and heroism can tap into when they are in the brink of defeat.

But to each it's own. I don't dismiss your way of thinking and find it a very interesting way of seeing and handling the heroic attribute, but I like my way better.

P.S.: BTW, I totally agree with Thing having the heroic attribute.

[stumpy]

This is one of those matters of taste in character design. To wit, do you use the attributes (and materials, btw) according to their names and descriptions, or do you use them according to how they function in the game. For most attributes, there isn't much of a conflict. But, I would agree that HEROIC is one where the description implies one thing and what actually happens doesn't necessarily imply that same thing.

A more obvious example is an attribute like NEUTRALIZE whose description implies sort of a specific thing ("your skin exudes a thin film of anti-acidic chemicals..."), but I think everyone uses the attribute for its in-game function of giving better acid resistance, regardless of the rationale. Another example that comes up quite often is whether Superman should have the BEDEVILED trait to reflect his lack of invulnerability to magic. Some people give it to him, but I never do. The description sort of fits, but that would make him vulnerable to ink or mundane smoke attacks (blindness), entanglement with glue or wires (stasis), and so on, in addition to those attacks when the rationale is magical.

For similar reasons, there are characters who in comics I would say are energy beings, but I don't make their materials energy in the game because they shouldn't have the vulnerability to energy, radiation or electricity, nor the resistance to crushing and piercing damage.

Anyway, good discussion.

[wickerman]

I like the thinking that is going into some of this, but the mechanic end of things kinda bothers me.

For instance, if you give the Thing heroic (and BTW, you have me VERY seriously considering doing so!) and you don;t give it to - for instance - She Hulk, they are no longer int he same weight class.  Hulkie would have to beat Ben twice to put him down.  That's pretty darn tough to do.  Guys like Sub mariner and Iron Man might want to think twice before taking on 2 fresh and ready to go Ben Grimms. 

Granted, I have kinda reduced this to a VS match, but you are also reducing  Magneto's chances against the X-dudes with Cyclops and Colossus gte to come back from the dead an extra time a piece. 

Still like I said, an interesting idea...  just throwing out some thoughts..

[HumanTon]

For instance, if you give the Thing heroic (and BTW, you have me VERY seriously considering doing so!) and you don;t give it to - for instance - She Hulk, they are no longer int he same weight class.  Hulkie would have to beat Ben twice to put him down.  That's pretty darn tough to do.  Guys like Sub mariner and Iron Man might want to think twice before taking on 2 fresh and ready to go Ben Grimms. 

Well of course you can also fiddle with Ben's Endurance to balance stuff out.

The Thing is a difficult one, though, since his traditional sparring partner is the Hulk ... but it's always made clear in the comics that the Hulk is much stronger than Ben, and the only way Ben ever has a chance of winning is through a combination of determination and outthinking old jade jaws. That's a bit hard to represent in FF. The best I've managed is: 1) make the Hulk Ben fights a Silver Age Hulk, who wasn't quite as buff (in particular, no regeneration), 2) give Ben Heroic to represent determination, 3) give Ben Heavy Hitter, Heavy Lifter, and a really good stun attack to simulate his better combat smarts, and 4) most importantly, give the Hulk Ben faces a Weak Spot.

[detourne_me]

I simply couldn't EVER give it to any villain, no matter who.

thats why i wish Unheroic could be stacked in a custom attribute,  but unfortunaely it can't.  I usually give unheroic to all minions and lesser characters.   I wish that the standard was no hero points.

[Talavar]

I don't know, having some, major villains with heroic kind of works, in my mind.  There are many instances where heroes have thought the villain to be beaten, only for the villain to suddenly rally and imperil them all again.  And it's incredible common for this to happen with the villains of horror movies in particular.

[stumpy]

I simply couldn't EVER give it to any villain, no matter who.

thats why i wish Unheroic could be stacked in a custom attribute,  but unfortunaely it can't.  I usually give unheroic to all minions and lesser characters.   I wish that the standard was no hero points.

UNHEROIC can be used in a custom attribute in FFX. I don't recall when it was added, but I am pretty sure it has been there since 2.6 for the original game...