Atrocities

[BentonGrey]

I'm speechless.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071209/ap_on_re_us/missionary_shooting;_ylt=Ahqv8ZRpMYNrYwSbwwyjqI5H2ocA

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071209/ap_on_re_us/church_shooting;_ylt=ApD25CzfYM8IigENUo7S75NH2ocA

What in the name of all that is good and holy is wrong with people?

[Gremlin]

Wow.  That's just disgusting.

[Uncle Yuan]

And what's going on in Colorado?

[detourne_me]

Have you seen the documentary "Jesus Camp" or any of Richard Dawkins documentaries about evangelism?
I really hope that these incidents are connected, meaning that theres only one person angry enough out there to do these horrible things to innocent people.

[Lionheart]

It's FUD-spreaders and hatemongers like Dawkins that lead to some of this stuff; this type of "anger" is learned, not earned (usually). But I'd best not get wax philosophical here; this forum isn't the place.

Hopefully these were connected and stopped in their tracks. Our hearts and prayers go out to the families and friends of the innocent victims of these senseless crimes.

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

The latest news is that it was only one gunman.  It turns out that the youth center had an office at that church.  Two of the people gunned down at the church frequented the youth center.  He apparently had been kicked out of the center three years before.

The saddest part is that he comes from a devoutly Christian family, which makes it more shocking.  In fact, he sounds a lot like me and a lot of other people I know.

Here's the original article, so you read it for yourself.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-12-10-colorado-monday_N.htm?csp=34

[GGiant]

 :o :blink: :wacko:

[lugaru]

Have you seen the documentary "Jesus Camp" or any of Richard Dawkins documentaries about evangelism?
I really hope that these incidents are connected, meaning that theres only one person angry enough out there to do these horrible things to innocent people.

I hear you. It was not fun spending time as a closet athiest around people who were against interratial relationships (and Me being Mexican) and against pretty much all things progressive or smart. Still this appears to be the case of somebody snapping and taking it out on those close to him, in this case other church people. Happens all the time where I live, you just dont hear about it much given it's inner city and non whites (i.e. not the main news demographic).

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

around people who were against interratial relationships

I do hope you don't think most conservative evangelicals are like this.  I know they exist, and they make me mad, but they aren't everybody.

[detourne_me]

I've been trying to refrain from being inflammatory here... i know its a whole bundle of touchy subjects. I just want to get a couple things straight about my opinion,  keeping in mind i don't have a lot of the facts and i'm thousands of clicks away from Colorado.
personally i think i'm a polytheist,  every religions correct as far as i'm concerned. My girlfriend who I love very much is Christian, and i would never think of compromising her beliefs (questioning them sometimes).  Whatever you want to believe in is fine with me, as long as you don't hurt others because of your beliefs, or if they don't follow yours.   I also despise those that impose their own beliefs on other people (thats why i'm generally opposed to all aggressive missionaries, i can live with those that bring medical aid to third world nations without dogma)

Now from what little media i've learned about that certain church in Colorado, I don't like it.  However i do want to say that it's a terrible tragedy that all these young people have died. I highly doubt that any of them played a part in the young man's dismissal from the missionary program.  5 young people have died needlessly.
But on the other hand,  what type of church has armed security guards?  has the church been inciting other people to violence, as to the fact that they would need to hire ARMED security guards?

I completely understand and support the fact that not all Evangelicals are like them, i think thats a good thing. 

[catwhowalksbyhimself]

But on the other hand,  what type of church has armed security guards?  has the church been inciting other people to violence, as to the fact that they would need to hire ARMED security guards?

It's a mega church.  I think they said it had over 10,000 members.  Probably more.  That's big enough to have trouble show up.  In addition, they did NOT hire a security guard.  She was a volunteer.  Her day job is a police officer.

[detourne_me]

Assam, who said she has worked previously in law enforcement, is among a dozen volunteer security guards at the church, senior pastor Brady Boyd said. Boyd said they were a necessary precaution because of "the prominence of the church."

sorry, i thought they were hired.

my point still being that a church (in a first world country) that needs security guards... is a bit upsetting.

i don't even think the Jewish synagogue in Norway has guards,  even though its been under attack with automatic fire before.

[El Condor]

For me, what's more concerning than where this attack occured is how we've become a culture where more and more emotionally sick people see spectacular and deadly violence as a legitimate way of releasing their pain.  The gunman's "now I'll be famous" line in his written note is, sadly, telling.  How did we get here, and how do we turn this around?

EC

[gdaybloke]

While we feel for those touched by this tragedy, please keep in mind the forums rules regarding discussion of religion and politics.

Thank you
Gday

[BlueBard]

Assam, who said she has worked previously in law enforcement, is among a dozen volunteer security guards at the church, senior pastor Brady Boyd said. Boyd said they were a necessary precaution because of "the prominence of the church."

sorry, i thought they were hired.

my point still being that a church (in a first world country) that needs security guards... is a bit upsetting.

i don't even think the Jewish synagogue in Norway has guards,  even though its been under attack with automatic fire before.

Is the fact that a church -has- security guards more upsetting to you than the fact that they might -need- them?  Because that's the way your posts are reading to me.  It doesn't particularly matter whether they were volunteers or paid professionals.

Churches are subject to vandalism and theft all the time, just like any other 'public' place.  And one need only read the news occasionally to understand that churches are sometimes the target of violence because of what they represent.  And not just fundamental evangelical churches, either.

Schools shouldn't have security guards any more than churches, but the fact remains that they appear to need them in light of mounting incidents of senseless violence.

Or is it your opinion that churches should for some reason leave themselves wide open to terrorism?  Christianity does not require its' faithful to be either deluded or stupid.  Quite the contrary.

Edit:  I'd like to amend this slightly... I don't want to suggest that any church, mosque, or synagogue that chooses not to use security guards is either deluded or stupid.  That is not my intent.

[BentonGrey]

Thank you BB, I think you captured my thoughts exactly. 

This isn't a place to discuss your disagreements with the theology of the churches involved.  This is a place of mourning and support for the victims in a terrible tragedy.  If you want to complain about "aggressive missionaries" or the policies of the church, I politely ask you to refrain from doing it in this thread.

[lugaru]

around people who were against interratial relationships

I do hope you don't think most conservative evangelicals are like this.  I know they exist, and they make me mad, but they aren't everybody.

One thing I've learned is that churches tend to be extremely independant, you can see two side by side with entirely different methods. So yeah, even though I'm an athiest I'm a huge christian apologist, I enjoyed my brief stint as a christian growing up and harbor none ill feelings. I do know that there's a lot of churches that do really weird stuff in the name of Jesus (one friend has told me some major horror stories of the church where he was brought up) but the stuff they do separates them from the mainstream. About that church and their racist policies... that was that church, I totally understand that.

About an armed volunteer it makes sense to me at a MEGA church as much as it makes sense at a wall mart or baseball stadium or whatever. It's not like she's there to drag people into the church at gun point, she is there in case of the absolute worse happening, like it just did.

[Verfall]

A few people die in a church with a shady past, it's an atrocity?

I wonder how many people died in Iraq this morning, or Afghanistan, or of starvation in the numerous hell holes we've got on this planet.

Deaths are sad, but perspectives sometimes are even sadder.

[Mr. Hamrick]

While we feel for those touched by this tragedy, please keep in mind the forums rules regarding discussion of religion and politics.

Thank you
Gday

I think that line got crossed a couple of blocks back.  I'm trying to refrain from opening my mouth further here.

[captainspud]

My favourite part about this kind of incident is how the news and the talking heads get all up in arms about, "How can this be prevented?  How can we stop it from happening again?"

The answer's easy: You can't.

There will always be crazy people. Every once in a while, one of them is going to wake up and have "a bad day", and flip out. When this happens, random people are going to die. This has always happened, it will continue to happen. Be sad for the people who suffer from it, but there's no point living in fear of it and barricading your life against it-- if a crazy man wants you dead, he'll find a way to do it. "Run, and you'll only die tired." Worry, and you'll only die panicked.

I don't remember what it's from, but there's a quote that always stuck with me: "There is no way to defend yourself against the threat of a single dedicated person who wants to trade his life for yours."

The moral of this story: the world isn't made of nerf. It has sharp edges, and no amount of padding will make them completely safe. Don't spend your life calculating how it's going to end. All your precautions, and you could still get smoked by a falling toilet seat from space tomorrow morning.

Signed,
Captain Spud
Official FR Bringer of Cheer

[BentonGrey]

The wrongful death of an innocent is always an atrocity, and I doubt that those two kids, just teenagers, have done anything in their short lives to deserve getting gunned down in cold blood.  If you can't understand that, I'm very, very sorry for you.  Have what opinions you want, but I'm going to ask everyone one more time to respect the spirit of this thread.

Well Spud, in a way, I agree with you.  There is nothing we can physically, actively do to keep this sort of thing from happening, short of turning the nation into a police state with armed guards in every public building.  However, you have to wonder what is wrong with our culture that causes things like this to keep happening.  Perhaps there are some long term changes that we can make to curb whatever dark tendencies are behind these things?  I'm afraid I'm not wise enough to see how, though.

[captainspud]

The rate of loonies killing people isn't any higher these days, it's just that a) the media loves these stories, so we hear about them more often and for longer than the stories deserve, and b) crazy people have access to more effective implements of death. One loony can kill a lot more people these days than he could before automatic and semi-automatic weapons existed and were easily acquired.

[BentonGrey]

The rate of loonies killing people isn't any higher these days, it's just that a) the media loves these stories, so we hear about them more often and for longer than the stories deserve, and b) crazy people have access to more effective implements of death. One loony can kill a lot more people these days than he could before automatic and semi-automatic weapons existed and were easily acquired.

I'd disagree Spud, at least in part.  It may not be too much different in America, but that is why I said "our culture" take a look at Switzerland, where every citizen is armed with an assault rifle and the violent crime rate is almost nonexistent.  What is the difference between them and us?

[Midnight]

The odds of return fire are higher?

[BlueBard]

We've had the media for quite a few years now, so I'm not sure I agree with that point.  For that matter, crazy people have always been able to get ahold of whatever they needed to kill people.  I believe it is fair to say that in some places and in some cases random violence is worse than ever before... and in some places and some cases it has been much worse.

The disturbing part is young people, kids even, who not only have the desire to kill but somehow also have access to the resources to do something about those desires.  That is an atrocity, whether it happens here in the US or in places like Darfour.  It says something very unpleasant about the culture in which it happens.

Throw out whatever you may know about the church's past or theology.  I don't know anything about it and couldn't comment on it here if I did.  It is besides the point.  Other churches of different denominations and faiths have been attacked in similar ways for even less reason.  It is not in Iraq or Sudan or Afghanistan, places where suffering abounds.  That is also beside the point.

The point is that we are poor, flawed humans as a race and that is indeed something to mourn over.  And that's all I can say about it.

[stumpy]

(Several people have posted since I started writing this, so I want to be clear this isn't directed at any particular post.)

My thoughts on the media reaction to this are pretty close to captainspud's. There is no way to be absolutely safe, either in a car, on a plane, in a church or even in your own home. It is totally reasonable that people choose to take precautions to mitigate risks, seatbelts, security guards, whatever compromise between "safety" and "living the rest of your life" that let's them carry on. But, when I hear media types speaking in terms of "How can we make sure this will never happen again?" and various public figures acting as though that's a reasonable policy goal, I worry that we are being sold a bill of goods. Anyone who promises a perfect system ought to be laughed off the podium by serious people.

As an aside, there is a lot of talk about "the rising tide of violence" and assumptions that these incidents are becoming more commonplace. Is there any evidence that that's really the case? I don't know about church shootings, but, for the most part, there isn't more per capita violence today than there was 10, 20, whatever years ago. It's just that now, much more is reported and, particularly when there is a dramatic incident, you can bet there will be reporters with cameras "reporting, live, here in front of X, where today a grisly shooting took place..." And, the prevalence of cell phone cameras and video surveillance means that many incidents that might have wound up in the newspaper's police blotter years ago are now played (sometimes over and over) on the nightly news.

(I am definitely not trying to diminish the impact of what happened in this case. But I remember trying to find statistics for the "wave of church arsons" in the mid nineties and "dramatic rise in school violence" during the late nineties and not being able to find any evidence that there was a statistical rise in either. I am just saying, it's worth considering that a lot of reporting of a few dramatic and horrible cases doesn't mean that there is a general trend.)

[Renegade]

I'm reminded of a story I read about a man who threw acid on a crowd of people. The story was in a small column on the front page of the LA Times.

The reprinted first edition of the LA times, from the 1880's.

I was struck then how such acts of violence have always been around, it's just that now we hear about them a lot more than we used to. What once would've been local news has more of a chance of becoming national news these days. You can blame this on the prevalence of 24 news channels that need news items to fill their programming hours. You can also blame the corporate control of the news that is more interested in garnering ratings with any sensational story than actually reporting news in a meaningful way.

For example, there have been several news stories about people finding nooses hung in schools and businesses the past couple of months. We hear about these thing on the news all day now, but how many of the thousands of actual lynchings that used to happen in this country were reported as news during the decades when they were happening?

[Figure Fan]

I agree with Spud, Stumpy, Renegade, and also Midnight's reasoning behind the lack of violence in Switzerland.

I have nothing to add, really.

[Protomorph]

I guess I'll weigh in...

What keeps a person from killing another? The knowledge that it is reprehensible? The threat of the consequenses? What happens when you remove these things (and others I haven't thought of) is that people go ahead with their murderous thoughts. In order for a society to prevent these things from happening, it would have to prevent these reasons from becoming irrelevant. It just isn't possible in all cases. Someone with no hope/morality in their mind or who commit suicide after the fact (thus escaping legal problems) cannot really be stopped, except during the commission of the crime, and even then the intent was still there. These things will happen, and they will continue to happen, so long as these people do not get the help they need in their darkest hours.

A guy gets kicked out of a school, so he goes for retribution. Another guy loses his job, kets kicked out of his house, and is dumped by his g/f, so he guns down random shoppers. Another guy, some months ago, doesn't get a girl, so HE guns down random people at his school. And, of course, there was Columbine....nuff said about that.

The question needs ot be asked, "Why?"  The problem is that the wrong "Why?" is being asked. Not "Why did he do it?" but rather, "Why did he think he was justified in doing this to other people?" There are reams of statistics of people who merely commit suicide after events in their lives go sour, taking nobody with them (my sister-in-law was one such person). What makes them different than the ones who feel they must make the world pay? What needs to be done to avert THAT mentality?

There are some easy answers. And they are wrong. The only true answers are much too complicated.

[ow_tiobe_sb]

There are some easy answers. And they are wrong. The only true answers are much too complicated.

Agreed, Proto, and I would venture that those answers could be derived (in approximations, to be sure) from a study of both socioeconomic conditions (which would speak to the U.S. vs. Switzerland issue) and personal hardships/gender expectations (as Columbine and Omaha have demonstrated).

ow_tiobe_sb
Phantom Bunburyist and The Prat in the Hat