Patch notes: http://www.cityofheroes.com/news/patch_notes.html

QuoteBlasters' earliest abilities come so naturally to them, that they are accessible even in states that normally prevent them from using powers, such as being Held, Slept or Stunned

Interesting part of defiance here.  So you think its just the level 1 powers, the first two (primary and secondary) you choose at character creation?

Now what about having that for defenders too.  I think i have more trouble with status effects on defenders than blasters, but both are equally as squishy and vulnerable.

Quote from: Camma on December 11, 2007, 06:55:25 AM

QuoteBlasters' earliest abilities come so naturally to them, that they are accessible even in states that normally prevent them from using powers, such as being Held, Slept or Stunned

Interesting part of defiance here.  So you think its just the level 1 powers, the first two (primary and secondary) you choose at character creation?

Now what about having that for defenders too.  I think i have more trouble with status effects on defenders than blasters, but both are equally as squishy and vulnerable.

It's the first two from your primary and the first from your secondary. And of course people are arguing that Energy Manipulation is getting away with murder again, heh.

From reading discussions it seems that since defenders don't need to go into combat, or can debuff their foes, that somehow means they get no difficulties from mezzes. Remember, you guys are the balanced ones, they're apparently bringing blasters up to meet you.

Hm, interesting approach.  Sort of a blend of the Mezz protection and Damage output approaches.

I predict that those powers will be increasingly slotted with Recharge to get the most out of them during mezz effects.

It still seems kludgy to me, but I guess time will tell.  Truthfully I still would have preferred to see powerset-specific damage resistance.  (vs Fire for Fire Blasters, etc.)  This will probably be a bit more useful though, and infinitely easier to code I'm sure.

Me likey.

Me no likey.

Considering how completely my dom owned Blasters in RV (unless they have Break Frees, I *will* kill them and take no damage before they get out of Boost+Hold), this is probably a smart change. For PvE it's only good, and in PvP it's *probably* good.

Quote from: Ephemeris on December 11, 2007, 09:01:47 AM
Me no likey.

I have my own mixed opinions on the topic, but I'm interested in yours... why don't you like it?

I presume this change saw the light of day on Test?  Anyone have any practical experience with it they can share?

I have to wonder about the effects in PvP and PvE.  The change seems to make it so that you simply cannot stop a blaster from attacking (other than knocking them down).  That's better mezz protection than even Tanks get, in a way.

I played with this in i11 beta, before the took it out. It's an interesting experience. The overall damage boost was nice, at least when my health was full.

As for Defenders; I think "looking at Vigilance" was next on BAB's plate.

Quote from: captainspud on December 11, 2007, 09:29:51 AM
Considering how completely my dom owned Blasters in RV (unless they have Break Frees, I *will* kill them and take no damage before they get out of Boost+Hold), this is probably a smart change. For PvE it's only good, and in PvP it's *probably* good.

Most blasters don't PVP in RV. The real test of PVP is in Sirens where all the cookie cutters have access to their best powers and everyone else is left lacking. RV is a corrupter haven, see teams of 4 or more in there all the time.

Quote from: Midnight on December 11, 2007, 09:48:13 AM
As for Defenders; I think "looking at Vigilance" was next on BAB's plate.

No!  Don't touch my Vigilance!

On a full team my defenders rarely ever run out of endurance, especially with end reducers.  I like it just the way it is.  Soloing, or in small teams needing a lot of buff/debuff, my defs have to constantly stop and tank up.  I don't wanna go back!

The argument against Vigilance has always been the same as the argument against defiance, "You have to not do your job in order to get any benefit." Of course this is a load of bull; the point of both was to ease the strain on the player by giving them a boost when things went bad.

Most people, of course, aren't able to percieve the overall difference in damage because they're too busy mashing buttons (and they don't have raw numbers), but they still manage to kvetch about it.

Vigilance does make a difference.  I can feel the difference when it's kicking in and when it's not kicking in so much, even if I couldn't crunch the numbers on it if I wanted to.

The old Defiance did too.  The problem with it was that it was tied to the character's health and not the overall health of the team.  So you could play safe and only get a little benefit, or go for the gusto and get really good damage before you go down in flames.  Then the team is short a Blaster.  I don't know many Blasters that play it safe, and that's not really what the AT is good at.  Personally, I never liked relying on the old Defiance even as a last-ditch effort.

If Defiance really worked like Vigilance, you'd get a huge damage boost just as your team as a whole is starting to take lots of damage.  I'm not sure that's better, I don't think it is, but that would be a more direct comparison.

I think a Blaster should get damage and accuracy bonuses when -any- team member is in danger of KO.  Then they'd be really useful in a pitched, desperate battle... unless of course they got mezzed.

Vigilance becomes useless after stamina. It's great at the low levels, but past the 20's it really doesn't do much.

I'd rather defenders get a form of "criticals" where any time they activate a primary power it has a small chance, say 10%, to double in effectivness. Doubles heals, doubles the -res from a toggle, doubles the -acc, doubles the damage boost, whatever. Give a nice "critical" animation of some sort when it happens so people can see it, and you're golden.

The problem people had with Defiance and Vigilance was mostly, imho, the fact that you don't notice the effects. Tankers experience the same thing with Gauntlet. When a scrapper crits, you can tell. Containment and Scourge are right in front of your eyes, Domination you actually have to interact with, the MM one is easily noticeable as well. And Fury speaks for itself. But Defiance, until now, was barely noticeable. I noticed Vigilance, but only in the 1-15 range or so. And Gauntlet is just part of the entire aggro control package, and has been broken so many times you can never actually know for sure if it is working.

People like to see when things are working, if they don't they complain that it isn't working.

Conceptually, I always really liked the idea of the old Defiance- made me think of those comics where the hero manages to put everything into that one last shot, just before he goes down. On the otehr hand, my blaster rarely got to benifit from it. I'm convinced that there is a way to make the concept work as a worthwhile special abiltiy, with some tinkering.

On the other hand, I've found that the lack of resistance to mezz effects is the single hardest part of soloing my blaster. This sounds like it will help. Although, on yet the other hand, that was one of the things that forced me to play creatively, which I enjoyed. I found that the otherwise-useless ranged knockback power was actually useful in these cases- if a Rikti mentalist, for example, had him held, I'd  just target the mentalist and keep hitting the icon for that power. As soon as the effect wore off, the rikti would get knocked down (and back), meaning he'd have to get back on his feet before trying to hold my character again- and the extremely fast animation time of that power helped keep the Rikti from getting off one more attack before going down. Now, the power will be completely useless. Oh, well...

Quote from: Verfall on December 11, 2007, 01:04:57 PM
Vigilance becomes useless after stamina. It's great at the low levels, but past the 20's it really doesn't do much.

I'd rather defenders get a form of "criticals" where any time they activate a primary power it has a small chance, say 10%, to double in effectivness. Doubles heals, doubles the -res from a toggle, doubles the -acc, doubles the damage boost, whatever. Give a nice "critical" animation of some sort when it happens so people can see it, and you're golden.

The problem people had with Defiance and Vigilance was mostly, imho, the fact that you don't notice the effects. Tankers experience the same thing with Gauntlet. When a scrapper crits, you can tell. Containment and Scourge are right in front of your eyes, Domination you actually have to interact with, the MM one is easily noticeable as well. And Fury speaks for itself. But Defiance, until now, was barely noticeable. I noticed Vigilance, but only in the 1-15 range or so. And Gauntlet is just part of the entire aggro control package, and has been broken so many times you can never actually know for sure if it is working.

People like to see when things are working, if they don't they complain that it isn't working.

Well, there you go... I only have two Defenders at or above 20 and a handful of other AT's.  I wouldn't have noticed the difference. :D

And I wouldn't argue with some sort of visual status effect that accompanies whatever Vigilance gets morphed into.  Defiance, at least, had some sort of visual cue even if it wasn't dramatic and didn't clearly show what it was actually doing.  The current form of Vigilance is pretty much invisible.

Quote from: Alaric on December 11, 2007, 01:18:26 PM
Conceptually, I always really liked the idea of the old Defiance- made me think of those comics where the hero manages to put everything into that one last shot, just before he goes down. On the otehr hand, my blaster rarely got to benifit from it. I'm convinced that there is a way to make the concept work as a worthwhile special abiltiy, with some tinkering.

On the other hand, I've found that the lack of resistance to mezz effects is the single hardest part of soloing my blaster. This sounds like it will help. Although, on yet the other hand, that was one of the things that forced me to play creatively, which I enjoyed. I found that the otherwise-useless ranged knockback power was actually useful in these cases- if a Rikti mentalist, for example, had him held, I'd  just target the mentalist and keep hitting the icon for that power. As soon as the effect wore off, the rikti would get knocked down (and back), meaning he'd have to get back on his feet before trying to hold my character again- and the extremely fast animation time of that power helped keep the Rikti from getting off one more attack before going down. Now, the power will be completely useless. Oh, well...

Actually people are saying that power is one of the bad things about the new Defiance. The rest of the sets get useless immobs, but energy manipulation gets a power that can clear off any melee attackers that are around if the blaster gets held. Useless? More like the best secondary attack of all the sets.

Not only does energy manipulation have ridiculous damage and over powered stunning capabilities, it now has the sole useful power in mez mode. Why has that set not been mutilated like my beloved Invul was?

Cause the Devs like playing Energy Blasters?

Quote from: Verfall on December 11, 2007, 01:23:55 PM

Quote from: Alaric on December 11, 2007, 01:18:26 PM
Conceptually, I always really liked the idea of the old Defiance- made me think of those comics where the hero manages to put everything into that one last shot, just before he goes down. On the otehr hand, my blaster rarely got to benifit from it. I'm convinced that there is a way to make the concept work as a worthwhile special abiltiy, with some tinkering.

On the other hand, I've found that the lack of resistance to mezz effects is the single hardest part of soloing my blaster. This sounds like it will help. Although, on yet the other hand, that was one of the things that forced me to play creatively, which I enjoyed. I found that the otherwise-useless ranged knockback power was actually useful in these cases- if a Rikti mentalist, for example, had him held, I'd  just target the mentalist and keep hitting the icon for that power. As soon as the effect wore off, the rikti would get knocked down (and back), meaning he'd have to get back on his feet before trying to hold my character again- and the extremely fast animation time of that power helped keep the Rikti from getting off one more attack before going down. Now, the power will be completely useless. Oh, well...

Actually people are saying that power is one of the bad things about the new Defiance. The rest of the sets get useless immobs, but energy manipulation gets a power that can clear off any melee attackers that are around if the blaster gets held. Useless? More like the best secondary attack of all the sets.

Not only does energy manipulation have ridiculous damage and over powered stunning capabilities, it now has the sole useful power in mez mode. Why has that set not been mutilated like my beloved Invul was?

Heh... That's not the power I was talking about. I was talking about the single-target push power in the Energy Blast set.

Quote from: BlueBard on December 11, 2007, 09:31:09 AM

Quote from: Ephemeris on December 11, 2007, 09:01:47 AM
Me no likey.

I have my own mixed opinions on the topic, but I'm interested in yours... why don't you like it?

I presume this change saw the light of day on Test?  Anyone have any practical experience with it they can share?

I have to wonder about the effects in PvP and PvE.  The change seems to make it so that you simply cannot stop a blaster from attacking (other than knocking them down).  That's better mezz protection than even Tanks get, in a way.

I don't like the changes for two reasons:
First is my blaster's playstyle.  I enjoyed living on the razor's edge, that was the thrill of being a blaster.  It was fun healing for blasters living on the edge.  This change seems to lack intensity.  The easiest fix would of been to have 'Defiance' appear over an enemy's head whenever it was kicking in.  Or maybe flattening the damage curve so the benefits kick in sooner.  I think the devs overthought these changes.

Second reason why is because both my favorite AT's are control oriented.  It makes no sense that any AT should be able to engage an enemy from a mezzed state.  Why shouldn't my dominator or controller be able to attack from death after being 2-3 shotted by a blaster or stalker?  Because that would be stupid and yet at the same time makes about as much sense as these blaster changes.  The blaster should have to break the mez to attack by using a breakfree, receiving a buff from a teamate or waiting until the duration has worn off.

My blaster was one of the few toons that I'm still levelling up on blueside that I enjoyed playing.  These changes only make me want play him less.