Quote from: AfghanAnt on September 14, 2007, 12:31:07 PM

Quote from: BentonGrey on September 14, 2007, 11:18:04 AM

Quote from: AfghanAnt on September 14, 2007, 11:08:54 AM
Tony's a playboy drunk who only think about what he can do to make the future he see.
Reed can be a cold scientist who further keep his little toys to himself instead of actually helping people.
Hank's a nutjob who has hit his wife and created evil robots.

Bad writing
Sometimes
Terrible writing

I fixed my word usage and grammar. I was thinking too many thoughts at once.

I agree with you it is bad writing sometimes but Marvel selling twice as much as DC right now. Thor has been the number comics repeatedly since and Ironman has gone from one among many to the One. For all the hatred of Ironman recently, he really has become a character I am interested in. He wants to save the world and despite what people might think of him, he's actually trying to make a difference the only way he knows how.

I wasn't really talking about modern comics with that little bit right there, I was more referring to the past portrayals of these characters as anything but heroes.  Hank the wife beater.......man, he rivals Aquaman for most mistreated character in comics.

I remember reading an Avengers TPB collection from some years ago (not that far gone though) and being surprised that Hank and Jan were back together.  They were getting remarried, had already reconciled, and seemed to be very much in love.  It was wonderful, they were actually healing the characters, showing growth and progress.........but, they can't let things like that be.  They don't know how to write new stories without torturing their characters.....so, Hank goes back to being a pill, he and Jan split again, Jean Loring cheats on Ray Palmer, goes nuts and kills people, Barbra Gordon gets shot and paralyzed, Blue Beetle gets shot in the head......I don't know, it just turns my stomach.

Bent, I agree with you on some of those DC changes but Babs being shot was a part of a journey for me. It make Batman and his family that more real (except of course Red Hood who should have stayed a dead Robin). After they crippled her, they didn't just write her off, she became something more important than female Batman, she became a character that, despite her physical weakness, is mentally strong and brokers information about anything that can be known to heroes that need her. I think the character has more respect as Oracle than she ever had as Batgirl. DC writes female counterpart character as cannon fodder. Through out the 60's and 70's both Batgirl and Supergirl were treated like they were more concern with getting married and boys than fighting crime. Even today, Supergirl is still being written as a guy's wet dream (I miss PAD's Supergirl).

What I am getting at is, change is good sometimes and even though I'm not 100% sold on Tony's personality lately, I do like what he is trying to do for the world.

Well, I agree that they've actually turned Babs' tragedy into a good thing, like Barry's death and Wally's tenure as the Flash.  I was talking more about the initial event.  They torture their characters (both companies in equal measure, I imagine, I just happen to know more about DC history because of my project), and I don't enjoy watching these characters twisted around.  Well, I suppose I'm really just contributing to this thread getting even more off topic.  I think I will start a separate thread for this sometime.

Thor smashed him good. So, is this during Hulk's War, or after?

I'm fairly certain the chronology is
Tony gets in Nova's face. Nova Leaves.
Tony gets in Thor's face. THor lays the smackdown.
Tony gets smashed through avengers tower by Hulk.

I'm a little confused- I know Ultimate universe Hank was a wife beater, but I didn't think they'd carried that particular bit of lunacy over to the 616 universe!?!

And if they haven't, you need to clearly indicate which version of the character you're talking about; because Ultimate Hank is effiectivley a whole new character it doesnt violate ANY history to make him a wife-beater...

Quote from: bredon7777 on September 15, 2007, 05:36:05 AM
I'm a little confused- I know Ultimate universe Hank was a wife beater, but I didn't think they'd carried that particular bit of lunacy over to the 616 universe!?!

And if they haven't, you need to clearly indicate which version of the character you're talking about; because Ultimate Hank is effiectivley a whole new character it doesnt violate ANY history to make him a wife-beater...

Bredon, I had to do a double take on your post. :P The ultimate universe characters aren't "all new". They're basically the same templates with a few changes. If anything, things from 616 carried over into Ultimates. If I recall correctly, Hank began to hit his wife during his yellowjacket stage. Let's just call Hank the tragic hero who had a lot of mental distress in his time.

Its all in the way you look at it, dude.  From where I sit , the Ultimate characters are all new characters that, through a wacky coinicdence share names and a little bit of history with the 616 characters- which is why it doesn't really violate any history when they change things in the Ultimate universe.

For example, IIRC 616 Hank hit Jan ONCE, which either prompted or cured the mental breakdown that made him Yellowjacket, I dont remember which.

They gave the new Ultimate Hank a History of being a wife beater- but Ultimate History doesn't violate that 616 character's history in any way, even though they can be drastically differnt.

I think of the ultimate heroes as slightly altered templates of the originals thrown into new situations (or rewritten situations) with a more modern story telling technique and plot devices going on [nuture vs. nature in a sense]. It's hard to think of them as new characters because marvel at the moment is just rehashing their old stories instead of actually adding new dimensions (IE: layers, not worlds). Hank the wife-beater in ultimates is just the original story expanded...just like his current storyline of trying to get back in the ultimates [avengers] good graces. And just like real life, if a man hits his wife once, of his own free-will, he is usually labeled a wife-beater...specially in modern age. Not to mention that 616 Hank did try to kill his wife at one point, but that story is mangled in my mind at the moment. Just to add, didn't 616 Hank also emotionally/mentally/verbally abuse Janet? Anyway, I don't recall anyone saying that ultimate marvel messed with anything in the main universe. I believe it's common knowledge at this point that ultimate marvel has its own history.

On topic:

I loved the thor vs. Ironman fight...but that may be just because I dislike Ironman more than I ever did after civil war happened. So now it just feels like I enjoy any issue where Tony is kicked off his high horse, even if it's for a moment. In fact...I'm pretty sure tony has a few more beatings coming up since everyone seems to be gunning for him now. That is, if he's not dead, a female ultron, or replaced by some random robot. Getting off tony for a bit, Reed Richards seems to be going back into his old character from what I read. I'd still like for Reed and Johnny to have a talk about his lack of visiting his hospital bed though.

So, 616 doesn't mix with Ultimates, that's correct. However, recently the FF have traveled to where the Ultimates Marvel Zombies where. In addition, in Ultimate Power #6, the Ultimates and  New Squadron Supreme are being visited by......wait for it........ The Original Squadron Supreme. Eh, I lost track on what I was gonna say.

Getting back to topic:
WELCOME BACK, HEIMDALL! :thumbup:

Quote from: thanoson on September 15, 2007, 08:58:33 AM
So, 616 doesn't mix with Ultimates, that's correct. However, recently the FF have traveled to where the Ultimates Marvel Zombies where. In addition, in Ultimate Power #6, the Ultimates and  New Squadron Supreme are being visited by......wait for it........ The Original Squadron Supreme. Eh, I lost track on what I was gonna say.

I, nor do I recall anyone else stating, didn't say they didn't mix. I said, "they each have their own histories." and they do. As an aside, marvel zombies takes place on an alternate earth...they were just "introduced" in ultimate fan4. In fact, what you were referencing to (galacta-zombies) happened after the ultimate fan4 arc, but eh, whateverage.

As for ultimate power...I haven't read it and I don't really plan to until all the issues come out. I thought it tied "Supreme Power" into the ultimate universe since supreme power was a max comic (IE: not in mainstream continuity)...so yeah. I don't think squadron supreme even takes place on 616 earth...so I don't know if I'm following your point there.

But really, sometimes it's hard to discuss things when statements are pulled out of nowhere. Maybe I missed something... *shrugs*

On topic:

Thor recovering all his old friends seems like an interesting idea, but it looks like that plot may go on for a year or so. I wonder if Thor will help out against Hulk since the heroes need all the help they can get.

Quote from: Previsionary on September 15, 2007, 10:27:59 AM
On topic:

Thor recovering all his old friends seems like an interesting idea, but it looks like that plot may go on for a year or so. I wonder if Thor will help out against Hulk since the heroes need all the help they can get.

Nope.....they've said no Thor in WWH. :(