......do yourself a favor and stay away from Michael Golden!

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19898&PN=1&totPosts=109 (Note: contains some harsh language)

Stories like this are a reason why I am NEVER getting a commission from any artist who requires full payment up front.

*edit: Update: What happened wasn't an isolated incident, apparently, as someone else just received their art from Golden, and they paid more than the other person did:

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19898&PN=1&TPN=10 - read the post by Michael Finn.

Holy cow. I just lost a ton of respect for Golden. And got a lot more for Byrne.

Well if you scroll down John Byrne offered (I assume that is Byrne) to give him a commission for free. Hopefully that will do a little to restore you faith in artists. :D

 :huh:....wow.... that is screwed up on *so* many levels.  This guy has the time to whip out a crank piece of art for a paying customer, but couldn't be bothered to actually draw what he was contracted for for a good 6+ months?  I am so shocked by the level of immaturity and unprofessionalism that I just have no words to express myself fully.  While I'm not familiar with the artist in question, if he works for Marvel, then I'd say that the corporate views on customers is rubbing off on at least one artist.  :thumbdown:

For those who aren't aware of Michael Golden, he is mostly known for doing The Micronauts and the first dozen or so issues of The `Nam for Marvel. I think he still does covers occasionally, but rarely does any other comics work now.

I have no doubt that if Byrne does a Dr. Strange for Gerry, it'll turn out great. The are a couple of Dr. Strange commissions that he has already done before, and both of them look awesome. Gerry's is one of my favorite posters over there, so I am really happy to see JB do this for him.

Well, that's a real dick move on Golden's part, although I still like his work as an artist (I try as much as possible to not let an artist's perceived or actual personality colour my appreciation of their work). Still, I don't know what it says about me that I still found the whole situation a little funny... not laughing at the buyer's misfortune, of course, but the fact that Golden had the temerity to create an obviously insulting piece.

I have the same rule and that is how I can still enjoy Alex Ross art even though he can be an annoying....this is a family forum so I'll stop now lol.

Good for Byrne, that is a hell of a thing to do.

-MJB

I notice that both Golden and his agent are scheduled to be at Wizard World Chicago.

I wonder what type of reception they'll get.

Quote from: Zapow on July 30, 2007, 09:08:46 AM
I notice that both Golden and his agent are scheduled to be at Wizard World Chicago.

I wonder what type of reception they'll get.

Ya know, and entrepeneur-type might stand to make a bit of profit in selling rotten fruit & veggies a row or two away from their table. :twisted:

Or he might make copies of that comissioned piece of crap with a warning on it and circulate.

I'm just sayin'.

I updated the first post. Seems Golden did the same thing to someone else, and they paid more money than the first guy did.....

Here's Michael Golden's reply to all this. Reading it seems to confirm everything the disgruntled buyer said in his original post (Golden, in fact, calls the account reasonably accurate save for a few omissions), except that from Golden's POV, he didn't violate any of the implied and/or agreed upon terms of the deal, most importantly the following (since lateness of delivery was being touted as the central issue prior to receipt of the actual artwork):

Quote(a) Commissions come after an artist's 'real' deadline work, so don't be surprised if the time frame changes at some point along the way.

Anyway, from reading all the factually relevant posts (Turnbull's, Golden's, Renee Witterstaetter's account on today's Lying In the Gutters column), it seems more to me like a case of a buyer (or a group of buyers) understandably dissatisfied with the artwork they paid for, but at the same time, it appears that the timeliness of delivery shouldn't have been that big of an issue.

Not trying to defend Golden's actions here (what he did was still unprofessional, and knowing that he was under no real enforceable condition to deliver within a particular date, he should've just taken his time and delivered a piece actually worth $500) but it looks like the pressure that was put on Golden to deliver the commissioned art by a particular date had no real basis apart from the buyers wanting it by then.

Actually, ZD, Gerry (and some of the others) supposedly have evidence refuting 90% of what Michael and Renee have said.

They say that 4 friends, including Gerry, all approached them together at a con and were given a discount rate. When, in fact, they each approached them individually at separate conventions.

They say that the 4 forced Golden to move them ahead of other people on the list, when in fact Gerry says he has written documentation showing that he was to receive the artwork within a month and a half and when it didn't materialize they kept putting him off with flimsy excuses each time he inquired, until he was finally sent that piece of "art". Gerry says he placed the order for the commission back in October, while Michael and Renee say it only happened a few months ago.

The ONLY thing I fault Gerry for is that he never said it was supposed to be an inked, sketch quality type of artwork - he had us believing it was supposed to be a commission quality piece. However, that picture that Golden did is unacceptable, as he took certain liberties and delivered what is essentially garbage; you can't see Dr. Strange's face, the cape takes up most of the page, and it looks like something that could have been done on a much smaller piece of paper. And that's not counting the spelling error. Bottom line is, Gerry got hosed, and apparently so did Michael Finn with the Micronauts piece he commissioned.

It might be acceptable for an artist to delay someone once or twice, but several times and for almost 8 months after the original promised date of delivery, is just plain wrong.

And if the fans in this case are as bad as Golden says they are, then WHY is Michael Finn sending Gerry a piece of Dr. Strange art from his own collection?

Bottom line is, Michael Golden comes off looking less than stellar in this whole thing and should NOT be getting paid in advance if he can't deliver on time and then tries to make dissatisfied customers look bad, and anyone who reads about what happened and decides to get a commission from Golden - even if its a sketch at a con - deserves what they get. Even if 100% of what Golden and Renee said was true, that's no way to treat a fan.

And if Golden is as slow as a lot of people say he is, should he really be doing cons at all when he's got a big backlog of commissions to do? People who have already paid you should come before people at a convention, and you really shouldn't be taking new orders when you're nowhere near getting half the stuff you've already got on your plate done. Most artists close their orders down when they're jammed instead of taking on new ones. Look at Bob Layton, for example; I visit his site every once in a while, and he actually posts updates on his commissions on his site from time to time so that people know where they stand with him and he stops taking commissions when he's swamped. Byrne also does the latter.

People can say all they want about Byrne's ego and attitude, but at least he actually cares about his fans and is professional. All the Byrne haters over at TCJ and other boards refuse to see that and keep on bashing Byrne while a lot of them have been defending Michael Golden despite the evidence, which really astounds me.

Michael Golden was on my list of artists I want to get commissioned artwork from when I have the finances to do so. Due to what has happened, he is off the list. Permanently.

Looking at what Golden posted about his pricing, I could probably get 3 to 4 high quality Byrnes for what one Michael Golden artwork would cost.....and I'd have all the Byrnes in my hands before Golden even got anywhere near mine.

I met Michael and Renee at the Paradise Toronto Comicon, they were both pleasant enough to chat with and whatnot; Renee even did a stick figure for my collection of "random people" sketches - it's on the same page as Gail Simone's and Robyn Moore's.

That said, there's no way I was forking over the asking price for a con sketch, I got better value for money hitting up the nobody's. And Tom Grummett.

Quote from: gdaybloke on July 31, 2007, 07:28:51 PM
I met Michael and Renee at the Paradise Toronto Comicon, they were both pleasant enough to chat with and whatnot; Renee even did a stick figure for my collection of "random people" sketches - it's on the same page as Gail Simone's and Robyn Moore's.

That said, there's no way I was forking over the asking price for a con sketch, I got better value for money hitting up the nobody's. And Tom Grummett.

Get anymore Stilt Man sketches for your collection, Gday? :)

(You should really get a CAF account and post your collection, btw. I'd love to see people's comments about all those Stilt-Man pics!)

Quote from: GhostMachine on July 31, 2007, 07:22:17 PM
People can say all they want about Byrne's ego and attitude, but at least he actually cares about his fans and is professional. All the Byrne haters over at TCJ and other boards refuse to see that and keep on bashing Byrne while a lot of them have been defending Michael Golden despite the evidence, which really astounds me.

Actually, what seems a tad confusing to me is the juxtaposition of Byrne in this whole matter, since I don't see what he really has to do with Golden's situation and vice-versa (apart from offering the disgruntled buyer his own Dr. Strange piece). Seems to me like the whole thing has taken a life of its own (or more probably, co-opted) and has become just another front in the war of words between the Byrne-supporters and the Byrne-detractors. And I don't really mean any offense to you GhostMachine, when I say that. It just looks that way from my point of view as a Byrne-neutral observer.   

Quote from: GhostMachine on July 31, 2007, 08:12:56 PM
Get anymore Stilt Man sketches for your collection, Gday? :)

(You should really get a CAF account and post your collection, btw. I'd love to see people's comments about all those Stilt-Man pics!)

Oops, I should send GDay that Stilts sketch someday. :P

And GM....damn you and that awesome Iron Man sketch! Me so jealous.

Anyways, I've been reading the ongoing Golden/Turnbull battle. I really hate these sorts of things, because the number of great comic artists from my youth are rapidly declining (either passing on the industry or passing on in general)...and here's one of them who is turning people off. 1% of me feels sorry for him, but the other 99% says what he did was very wrong and had I been in his position, I would've at least offered a refund to make amends. Unfortunately, we'll never truely know why the participants acted as they did, but hopefully things balance in the end.

Zulu, the Byrne juxtaposition is because Gerry and one or two of the others who were involved in the Golden situation are regular posters at Byrne Robotics, and Gerry happens to be one of my favorite posters there.

Byrne does get a lot of critcism because he's always been one of the more outspoken creators in the field and isn't afraid to say what he thinks, even if it comes off as bashing another creator in some people's eyes. However, Byrne is dead on about the current state of the industry and a few other things, and a lot of people refuse to even concede that and would rather rip the guy and his work. And Byrne does seem to genuinely care about his fans and the quality of his own work, which is a lot more than I can say about a bunch of other creators.

Btw, Byrne is doing a Star Trek one-shot for IDW that's about....The Romulans. Don't know when its coming out, however, but the cover he posted looks pretty cool. Speculation is that its about the Romulan crew from the TOS episode "Balance of Terror" (which happens to be my favorite episode!), but Byrne won't confirm or deny it.

psycho, I had to stand in line for over 2 hours to get that Iron Man sketch, and it was definitely worth the wait. And JR Jr actually talks to the fans while working, which made the experience even more worthwhile. His run on Iron Man with Bob Layton inking his work back in the 80's is one of my favorite runs on a comic of all time.

The thing that bothers me is that from what I gather, Golden felt that these fans were being rude, badgering him for their pieces.  This supposedly went on for months BEFORE he actually got to their work.  You know what?   Before he eventually started on the pieces, Golden should have apologized for not being able to meet their deadline and refunded their money.  Since the work wasn't started, it would have been the opportune time to do it.  I know I've done the same when I had a customer that did not make me feel comfortable.  Just send them away in the most diplomatic manner possible to save you from the headache.

Pyro, I agree with you. The problem is, Golden has a reputation for being slow and now he's going to have an even worse reputation for the way he handled all this.....and possibly as a liar if Gerry and the others can indeed back up what they've said.

It also goes to show that artists should NOT be paid up front for work, and should not be able to say they don't give refunds. I can see an artist taking a deposit....maybe 25% of the full price - 50% if you've earned a rep for actually doing quality work and getting it done in a reasonable time. However, in my own opinion, if Golden is charging 2k for his best work as he says he is, he's overpriced. There are creators a LOT more in demand who are known for doing more work who don't even charge that much, and most don't get paid in full up front and not give a reasonable time estimate for when it will be done. Golden should really change his practices not just for his own benefit, but because it would save him the hassle if he gets swamped with more work than he can handle, which I suspect may have been the case here.

Look at John Byrne or Bob Layton, for instance. Sure, Layton is only really known for his work on Iron Man, but a. He doesn't charge a fortune - last time I looked, he charged $150 for a single figure - and its inked, not just penciled - $450 for a cover recreation - and b. He doesn't take on more work than he can handle and frequently updates his site to let people know how his commissions are going. Byrne doesn't give prices - you have to go through his agent, Jim Warden and make an inquiry - but Byrne always delivers quality work (although, he does occasionally make mistakes such as an Invisible Woman with 6 fingers, but he's only human), he gets it done in a reasonable amount of time and he doesn't accept payment until the work is done and he cuts off accepting new work when he's got a full plate.

I was considering getting a commission of Marionette and Acroyear fighting Baron Karza from Michael Golden once I'm financially solid again (I'm unemployed at the moment, and my job prospects don't look good), but instead I've marked that off my list permanently due to how this has all been handled.

In terms of pricing for art (commissioned or otherwise), I don't think there's really such a thing as "overpriced". The monetary value for something as ephemeral as aesthetic appreciation will always be arbitrary and is usually determined by what the market and seller are willing to bear. In Golden's case, he probably put a value of $2000 because he thinks it's worth that amount, and that he believes people are willing to pay that much for it (I'd be interested to hear if he's actually sold any commissioned comic book art at that price). Obviously, other artists value their work differently. I sold paintings briefly for a living and you'd be surprised at the range art goes for (and how much an artist is willing to lower his price just to make a sale). You can't really put a fixed price on any of it (although there are always helpful rules-of-thumb based on size, medium, etc.), and as they say, there's no accounting for taste... some paintings I sold for hundreds of dollars I wouldn't even spend my time in a gallery looking at. 

Quote from: GhostMachine on July 31, 2007, 08:12:56 PM
Get anymore Stilt Man sketches for your collection, Gday? :)

(You should really get a CAF account and post your collection, btw. I'd love to see people's comments about all those Stilt-Man pics!)

Um.... I already have a CAF gallery. Heh.

Picked up a coupla more Stilt-Mans are the Paradise con, also a Beta Ray Bill (he's swoonworthy). Heading to the Toronto Comic Arts Festival on the 19th of August, word is my pal Mel has a Dazzler for me.

Both Michael and Renee have responded over at TCJ (a board I'm loath to visit, because I feel my brain cells dying whenever I'm through reading there), and I'm beginning to think neither side in this is telling quite the whole truth but that neither side is outright lying or trying to be misleading either - however, I do suspect Michael and Renee saying that Gerry and 3 others essentially ganged up on him and made him move them ahead of others is false, because Gerry and one of those other three (Michael Finn) have pretty good reps and don't seem like the type who would do something like that. However, I'm growing more suspicious of Gerry simply because he claimed to have written documentation of a promised one and a half month delivery and hasn't produced it; if he did and its handwritten by Michael or Renee and dated, then their reps would quickly go down the drain. Yet Renee insists he doesn't have that documentation. I doubt she'd be stupid enough to make that claim if she knows he does possess it.

The way that Michael and Renee have handled the entire thing has been horrible no matter what the real truth is, however.

Someone at a blog I read with an article on it has posited an interesting theory: Its quite possible that Michael Golden simply doesn't have it any more and his talent has degraded, because several people have posted various artworks that he has done for them over the past year or two that don't even resemble his art from when he was working back in the 80s. And I don't mean in a good way; artists' style and skill does evolve, but when your work is barely recognizable as yours and looks more or less like crap in some cases. Of course its quite possible that the pieces of art posted were rushed, which is why they look bad.....

There's an Elektra sketch that Golden did for someone - for $175.00 - that's been posted a few places, and it looks pretty bad. Someone made a smart remark that they didn't known Ian Astbury from the Cult had breasts, and I admit I had a good chuckle over that, but they really weren't that far off..... I also recall seeing a Jean Grey Phoenix sketch by him somewhere that had really stubby arms and serious lack of any detail; possibly acceptable in a free sketch or one you charge minimally for, but NOT in something you charge $100+ for.

Keep in mind some artists who are true legends, like Carmine Infantino, apparently charge less than Golden for sketches, and Gene Colan still does art for fans without much deterioration of his skill, and he'll be 81 in September.

Bottom line is, Golden should NOT be getting paid in full in advance and if his skill HAS deteriorated that bad, he's getting SEVERELY overpaid.

*edit* Gday, I checked your gallery out, and I'm surprised you haven't had more comments. You've got a lot of really good pieces of art in there - despite me never having heard of about 90% of the artists, but still. I'm afraid my gallery is gonna remain pathetic for a while, as I likely won't be getting any more original art until next year's Adventurecon; stuff I consider bidding on on eBay quickly ends up out of my price range, unfortunately....

Browsing thru GDay's CAf site, I would take GDay's "Possum vs Dazzler" (or even the She Hulk, if you want to go for technical skill) over that Golden Dr Strange anyday....and I'm sure they didn't cost $500 either. I hope Blair Kitchen or Tom Grummet show up at the next con around here. They're on my sketch radar. :)

Off topic: Panda, you can keep tabs on Blair Kitchen through his site - http://www.possumpress.com. If you'd like a sketch, he'll toss one in with the comic if you buy one online - tell him Chris Miller sent ya ;)

I ordered the first two issues of the Possum. Hope you don't have to specifically ask for the sketches to get them.....

Did you want anything specific in the sketches? Otherwise you'll get generic Possum poses

Quote from: gdaybloke on August 02, 2007, 04:12:58 AM
Did you want anything specific in the sketches? Otherwise you'll get generic Possum poses

Nope. I just clicked on the links to add them to my Paypal cart, then paid once I was done. Didn't leave any notes or anything.

I was just going to order the first issue, but after seeing the cover to the second with the Possum fighting luchadores, I pretty much had to order the second issue as well!

Back on the subject of this thread, the situation *may* have been resolved. Renee posted over at TCJ saying that Gerry and Michael had resolved everything, but Gerry hasn't said anything about it anywhere yet.

Continuing the derailment for one more post, I sent Blair a message with a link to this thread, so we'll see what happens.