http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Blaster&Number=8688051&bodyprev=#Post8688051

Anyone who's played a blaster into the mid to late game knows how useless this inherent really is. Well, castle has opened the doors to our suggestions as well as giving 3 examples of ideas they've come up with internally. If you got any suggestions, go post em.

Granted I've only played him to 14, but I like Defiance on my fire/fire. I like to intentionally get to max Defiance and then see how long I can hold it. :D

I don't know that I have a good opinion.  I don't have a lot of blasters in play and none above 16, but I tend to ignore Defiance completely.

It seems to me that the main problem is that it is useless when mezzed, as has been stated.  All of the blaster's powers are, frankly.

So what if Defiance ramped up personal mezz protection instead of damage?  It would reflect the Blaster's determination and temperament and keep him in the fight longer, especially at higher levels.  He/she is able to break free of status effects by virtue of willpower, desperation, and anger.

And forgive me for not knowing how it works, but what if the increase in mezz protection was able to act as a kind of a break free when it hits a certain point?

Done carefully, it would not necessarily prevent the Blaster from being mezzed, but it would give him a second chance in battle and make him more resistant while Defiance is at peak effect.

Granted, it still doesn't prevent the Blaster from getting KO'd in the first place.  But the best defense is a good offense, and keeping them in the fight instead of mezzed could be at least somewhat effective.  And wouldn't you rather carry wakies than breakfrees?

Thoughts?

Quote from: BlueBard on July 13, 2007, 07:13:23 AM
And wouldn't you rather carry wakies than breakfrees?

Nope, I'd rather be mezzed than dead.

I've never liked Defiance, and I would love to see it changed completely. Its next to useless when you're in a group unless there's no healer or taunters around to keep you from being damaged long or damaged at all, and its an ability that requires you to risk suicide to use it.

I stand by what I've said before: It would have made more sense to give Defiance to Scrappers and give Blasters critical hits, because Scrappers are supposed to be taking damage, while Blasters are too squishy to make Defiance useful in most situations.

When Defiance came out, GhostMachine was either already 50 or fairly close to it. However, I also have Captain SWAT, and with the exception of one Safeguard I did on GM where I was out of greens and was immobilized, I've never been in a situation on either character where I'd use Defiance to do extra damage instead of either fleeing or popping a green.

How would I change Defiance? Well, I have a few ideas:

1. Make it similar to Domination, where its powered up when you attack more, except when you activate it it either increases your Defense or damage (of ranged attacks only; no effect on AEs or melee range) temporarily. Maybe make it so it only works with powers from your Primary.

2. Each time you are hit, your defense increases, starting when you are at 75% of your hit points. Defense increase gives a slightly better increase to defense vs. ranged attacks than vs. other types. When you have taken dmg leaving you with only about 25% of your hit points left, you are virtually unhittable by ranged attacks for a short period of time (about the same as the duration of a Break Free). Defense does not apply to area effect or other non-targeted attacks, and does not protect against status effects, except for the possibility of them missing.

Quote from: Ephemeris on July 13, 2007, 08:32:49 AM

Quote from: BlueBard on July 13, 2007, 07:13:23 AM
And wouldn't you rather carry wakies than breakfrees?

Nope, I'd rather be mezzed than dead.

Point being, if a Blaster had Mezz resist as an inherent, he wouldn't need to carry a lot of breakfrees... saving room for awakens that will be needed WHEN (not if) the Blaster goes down.  Blaster gets mezzed, Blaster is probably going down anyway... he just doesn't get a parting shot in.

You know what's really goofy?

The Devs are willing to change how Defiance works... but they aren't willing to change the name of the inherent power to something else more suitable, and they'll veto ideas that don't fit the name.  As if that had more weight than game balance.

What's so special about the name 'Defiance' that they can't change it?  Sheesh.

And I know they'd never swap inherents between Scrappers and Blasters, and heaven forfend if they'd ever give the same inherent to two different archetypes.  Sometimes I think they carry the 'unique flavor' thing a bit too far.

I've always thought Blasters should get a bonus for being in that "sweet spot" -- a certain distance from the target where they get rewarded for doing what they're designed to do (ranged damage).  It would always be on, but would be far enough away that melee and short range attacks wouldn't get a bonus.  It might also be interuptable - that would add some kind of risk factor and would keep it from getting too powerful.

I never really payed much attention to Defiance. :oops:

-MJB

Quote from: GhostMachine on July 13, 2007, 10:05:32 AM
I've never liked Defiance, and I would love to see it changed completely. Its next to useless when you're in a group unless there's no healer or taunters around to keep you from being damaged long or damaged at all, and its an ability that requires you to risk suicide to use it.

I stand by what I've said before: It would have made more sense to give Defiance to Scrappers and give Blasters critical hits, because Scrappers are supposed to be taking damage, while Blasters are too squishy to make Defiance useful in most situations.

When Defiance came out, GhostMachine was either already 50 or fairly close to it. However, I also have Captain SWAT, and with the exception of one Safeguard I did on GM where I was out of greens and was immobilized, I've never been in a situation on either character where I'd use Defiance to do extra damage instead of either fleeing or popping a green.

How would I change Defiance? Well, I have a few ideas:

1. Make it similar to Domination, where its powered up when you attack more, except when you activate it it either increases your Defense or damage (of ranged attacks only; no effect on AEs or melee range) temporarily. Maybe make it so it only works with powers from your Primary.

2. Each time you are hit, your defense increases, starting when you are at 75% of your hit points. Defense increase gives a slightly better increase to defense vs. ranged attacks than vs. other types. When you have taken dmg leaving you with only about 25% of your hit points left, you are virtually unhittable by ranged attacks for a short period of time (about the same as the duration of a Break Free). Defense does not apply to area effect or other non-targeted attacks, and does not protect against status effects, except for the possibility of them missing.

Like most objectives in this game risk=reward.  Risk death for the potential to destroy the enemy quickly.  Sound fair?  It does to me. 

The only AT's that are supposed to take damage by design are brutes (fury) and tankers (gauntlet)  Scrappers, like stalkers, have defenses in case they get into trouble.  Blasters were given defiance because datamining or polling showed that blasters were dying to enemies that had a sliver of health left.  Defiance was intended to push the blasters over the top in those engagements.

I tend to play blapper type builds, not /devices.  Any defiance that doesn't effect secondary powers is less than ideal.  It would actually cause more deaths than the system in place.  A blaster's highest single target damaging attacks (boss killers) come in melee range and usually include a secondary effect.  Why would you want to not allow boosts to the attacks that will beat the greatest threats to your blaster's life?

Quote from: BlueBard on July 13, 2007, 01:25:08 PM

Quote from: Ephemeris on July 13, 2007, 08:32:49 AM

Quote from: BlueBard on July 13, 2007, 07:13:23 AM
And wouldn't you rather carry wakies than breakfrees?

Nope, I'd rather be mezzed than dead.

Point being, if a Blaster had Mezz resist as an inherent, he wouldn't need to carry a lot of breakfrees... saving room for awakens that will be needed WHEN (not if) the Blaster goes down.  Blaster gets mezzed, Blaster is probably going down anyway... he just doesn't get a parting shot in.

I'm under the opinion that mez protection would break the most damaging AT in the game.  Mez resistance would not relieve the blaster of needing breakfrees, because it would only effect the duration of the status effect on the blaster. It would just get the blaster back into the fight faster than it currently does.

As for your scenario...blaster gets mezzed, blaster hits a breakfree (if it wasn't used in anticipation of the mezzing mob), blaster continues his barrage.

I'd like to see absorption type of inherent, where specific damage types directed at the blaster could be projected by the blaster at targets.  You could... 
1) Base it on their primary or to a lesser degree on their secondary...so a fire/nrg blaster would build up defiance based on fire damage taken at a fast rate or nrg damage at a slower rate.  Maybe have a built in resistance to each primary/secondary damage type included with defiance, fire/nrg resistance in this example.  A blaster would still receive damage from any other damage types at the existing rates.  The biggest drawback with this system are those blasters with an exotic damage type (ice) would have trouble building defiance because of a lack of ice based mobs in the game. 
OR...
2) Allow the blaster to build defiance by taking any type of damage.  Whichever damage type has accounted for the greatest portion of defiance would be the damage type that defiance projects.


Long live the glass cannon!

Just give em domination. Except instead of boosting damage when you click it, make it a 1 minute recovery/regen/mez/defense protection power. Make it build at the speed the original domination did, the old slow version, and make it unaffected by recharge boosts like hasten. If need be, let it build slower.

It'll basically be equivalent to a tier 9 scrapper godmode power, and let blasters handle bosses and EB's easier, or just those times when the poo hits the twirly thing.

Quote from: MiddyDefiant Stance (Defiance)
+Damage, +Acc, +DamRes
-Def, -Movement

Quote from: _Castle_That's a good idea! I like it.

Quote from: Midnight on July 13, 2007, 07:16:30 PM

Quote from: MiddyDefiant Stance (Defiance)
+Damage, +Acc, +DamRes
-Def, -Movement

Quote from: _Castle_That's a good idea! I like it.

Oh sure, castle quotes you all nicey nice, but when States quotes me...well...

:thumbup:

Heh. I'm thinking Castle is more personable than States anyways. ;)

Does it sound like a good idea?

-Sigh-

Sometimes this is what I hate most about not being a subscriber anymore.  Not being able to take an active part in the discussions on the boards anymore.  I would so be all over this and another bit about redesigning the AR gun in the forums.  Redo the gun... give us a gunbut smack as a brawl and make all grenades thrown --- I am so down with that. 

Glad I can still at least express my ideas and thoughts here is limited is it would be.

Some good ideas here.  :)

Anything is better than what we have now.

Defiance's biggest problem is how it is DEPENDANT on putting yourself in a bad position and making a poor choice.  Risk = Reward?  I don't think so.

Most of the other inherants are dependant on randomness or using your main powers to strengthen your secondary powers.  Defiance needs to follow along those lines.... not as a reward to play with a constant deathwish.

RTT

Middy, where did you post that?  I looked through that thread but can't find it.

Quote from: Arcanaville
(from Arcanaville's Mechanics of Defiance thead, on the CoH forums)

Just for fun, here are some interesting defiance points:

Code:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

100.00%   0.55%   full health
57.00%   10.88%   assault (10.5%)
45.00%   25.00%   small rage
42.00%   30.78%   circa one-shot death from average boss
41.00%   32.99%   Fortitude (31.25%)
35.00%   50.00%   Large Rage (50%)
31.00%   65.98%   Aim (62.5%)
28.00%   81.23%   Perma Rage (80%)
25.00%   100.00%   Build Up (100%)
15.00%   200.00%   Circa one-shot death from average LT
9.00%    303.14%   Damage Cap (assuming 3-slot damage)
8.00%    324.90%   Circa one-shot death from average minion

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also from the same thread (ignoring his suggested fix to avoid confusion):

Quote from: Arcanaville
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Health%current   
100   0.55%   
90   1.10%   
80   2.21%   
70   4.42%   
60   8.84%   
50   17.68%   
40   35.36%   
30   70.71%   
20   141.42%   
10   282.84%   
9   303.14%   
5   400.00%   
1   527.80%   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Saying that you've never used defiance is untrue, unless you pop a green, run or phase shift at the first scratch you receive.  If you're doing that then you shouldn't be receiving defiance because you're not acting defiant.

If you choose to stay on the fringes of combat and not take much damage, you'll still be receiving a defiance BONUS.  This is where risk vs reward comes into play... don't risk your health and receive a small damage bonus OR risk your health and recieve a large damage bonus.  Seems /devices blasters seem to like defiance the least, maybe it's because that secondary is more 'defenderish' than the other blaster secondaries.

As Arcanaville suggested on page 6 of the defiance suggestion thread, maybe actually showing the damage defiance does seperately would change attitudes.  As it is now, it's out of sight and therefore out of mind.

Quote from: RTTingle on July 14, 2007, 08:47:32 AM

Sometimes this is what I hate most about not being a subscriber anymore.  Not being able to take an active part in the discussions on the boards anymore.  I would so be all over this and another bit about redesigning the AR gun in the forums.  Redo the gun... give us a gunbut smack as a brawl and make all grenades thrown --- I am so down with that. 

I absolutely agree.

Quote from: Tortuga on July 14, 2007, 10:12:10 AM
Middy, where did you post that?  I looked through that thread but can't find it.

T'was a PM. I believe my subject title was 'Too Embarassing to Post in the Defiance Thread'

Well...

...looks like Castle has spent up as much time as he could on the defiance issue and the suggestions.  Keep yer' fingers crossed and lets hope they come up with something better for Defiance.

RTT

I definitely agree with Cloak about changing the gun, but one thing I'd also like them to do is, remove the gun from the Munitions Mastery set. Its damned stupid that the set uses the assault rifle for its attacks, when not every Blaster is an AR Blaster. They could make a rifle version of the Crey cryo pistol accolade for the Cryo Freeze Ray, a modified version of the 5th Column\Council rocket launcher (ie, shrink it down and recolor it) for the LRM, and have the Sleep Grenades be thrown.

And Ephy, not every Blaster is a blapper. I'm sure most blappers probably love Defiance as-is, but the risk is most definitely not worth the reward in most cases. I don't care for it on my other Blaster, Captain SWAT, who is a borderline Blapper either. (He's AR\Energy, and the only attack I have from that set so far is Power Thrust, which I only use if enemies get too close - I don't generally run up to them unless its a single minion by itself)

The problem with changing the supersoaker in the Munitions set is the redraw.

And: Basing your opinion of blapping and defiance on Power Thrust is problematic because... well... Power Thrust sucks, even at 300% damage.

Quote from: GhostMachine on July 21, 2007, 12:51:33 PM
And Ephy, not every Blaster is a blapper. I'm sure most blappers probably love Defiance as-is, but the risk is most definitely not worth the reward in most cases. I don't care for it on my other Blaster, Captain SWAT, who is a borderline Blapper either. (He's AR\Energy, and the only attack I have from that set so far is Power Thrust, which I only use if enemies get too close - I don't generally run up to them unless its a single minion by itself)

I know not all blasters are blappers (ex. /devices, all other secondaries have blapping potential).  I disagree with your assessment of defiance's risk vs reward.  Your borderline blapper has one 'defensive' power from it's secondary (which is rarely, if ever, used on my blapper).  Blappers have an offensive, all or nothing, mindset.  Saying you don't like defiance on your 'borderline blapper' is like saying 'I don't like gauntlet, but I've only taken the one tanker secondary power which was required.'  The tank isn't going to receive the maximum benefit of gauntlet nor is the blaster going to receive the maximum benefit of defiance if he ignores his secondary.

Quote from: Ephemeris on July 21, 2007, 02:59:11 PM

Quote from: GhostMachine on July 21, 2007, 12:51:33 PM
And Ephy, not every Blaster is a blapper. I'm sure most blappers probably love Defiance as-is, but the risk is most definitely not worth the reward in most cases. I don't care for it on my other Blaster, Captain SWAT, who is a borderline Blapper either. (He's AR\Energy, and the only attack I have from that set so far is Power Thrust, which I only use if enemies get too close - I don't generally run up to them unless its a single minion by itself)

I know not all blasters are blappers (ex. /devices, all other secondaries have blapping potential).  I disagree with your assessment of defiance's risk vs reward.  Your borderline blapper has one 'defensive' power from it's secondary (which is rarely, if ever, used on my blapper).  Blappers have an offensive, all or nothing, mindset.  Saying you don't like defiance on your 'borderline blapper' is like saying 'I don't like gauntlet, but I've only taken the one tanker secondary power which was required.'  The tank isn't going to receive the maximum benefit of gauntlet nor is the blaster going to receive the maximum benefit of defiance if he ignores his secondary.

Hell, I played Aimee as a blapper, and if her health got to half and no one was around to heal it, she got the hell out of dodge. Taking a few more hits to get into defiance was just not worth the one shot possibility. Usually by this point the minions are dead, which means anything left has a good chance to take me out in 3 shots or less. Waiting till my hp on the lowest hp toon blue side gets to the the 1/4 mark to get the same effect I get from my a click power already sitting in my power tray is not a good risk vs reward equation. If anything, Defiance would have been better for tanks since in a lot of cases the tanks hp at 1/4 is almost on par with a blaster at 3/4 to full.

Every other inherent did something noticeable. Some moreso than others, but none of them require you to damn near kill yourself before they do anything effective. The defender one somewhat requires you to damn near kill your teammates, and its use falls off once stamina comes into the equations, but for the first 20 levels I found it extremely useful. And you can see your end bar not moving as your teammates take damage.

Defiance was a decent idea, but the way it worked in-game was not equal to the vision the devs had for it. Nevermind the fights it could start if a blasters wanted to run in defiance mode but the defender wanted to heall him. For a defender, seeing yellow orange or red on his team bar was not a good thing.

I wasn't trying to say that I didn't like Defiance and had a borderline blapper, although that's what it came out sounding like. I was trying to say that I have a blaster that isn't Devices and doesn't care for Defiance, either. That's what I get for posting when I'm half awake.....

However, I can tell I still wouldn't like it even if I did play as Blapper and had other energy manip attacks.

And Middy, I know Power Thrust sucks. Hence why I only use it the way I mentioned. Its to get an enemy off me as a set-up for one of my gun attacks and nothing more.

P.S. Ver's first two paragraphs after throwing in his 2 cents on my comments are pretty much why I hate Defiance. Its a turd of an ability as it stands.

A lot of what I sawproposed and that caught Castles eye still seemed based of the HP bar.

Anything based off that HP bar is a bad idea.  Especially with something like a Blaster who has low hps to begin with and any shot could be the one that kills them.

The whole idea behind it is just awful, it promotes making poor decisions.

It should be something that rewards play or is just random.

Honestly, from what I read, everything was very complicated in regards to defiance.  Why?  I still say Blasters should just get the random reward like Scrappers with a critical hit.  I don't buy that whole keeping critical hits "unique" argument either.  Blaster having critical hits wouldn't change how scrappers play one way or the other... so it holds no water.  Load of crap.  The whole Defiance thing has gotten too complicated and rather than solving the problem simply... like they could by giving it something similiar to critical hits... like they should have done in the first place... its gotten to this point.

Nice to see the Devs trying to fix it and reaching out to the community, but they're making it more complicated than they should.


RTT

The thread in the official forums is too large to follow at this point.  I have no idea what proposals are on the table, so I'll just have to take the breadcrumbs I receive here.

But I agree with RTT... forcing Blasters to put themselves in danger of being one-shotted just to get a damage bonus pretty much defeats the whole idea of the AT, IMHO.  And does nothing for the Devices folks.

And as I said before, I think the Devs take the whole 'uniqueness' bit way too far.  Many of the powersets overlap AT's, so you can hardly claim that each AT is 'unique'.  It's the flavor of the AT they should be striving to preserve, not specific powersets or powers.

And trying to preserve Defiance come heck or high water is not the best solution.

The AT is all about Offense, and it specializes in Ranged Offense.  The only defense a Blaster has is his Offense.  The inherent should complement that and Defiance doesn't do a good job in that respect.  I never rely on it... I don't like XP debt.  I agree, the Critical would have suited the AT much better than a graduated damage boost that hinges on the Blaster being ready to drop before they get the full benefit of it.

Can there be anything more counter-intuitive than telling a healer not to heal?  The whole concept makes healing powers much more complicated than they ought to be and damages the effectiveness of characters who have them.