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Is anyone else as upset  :angry: :( as I am about their deaths (revealed in The Initiative#1)?   Sasquatch is the only survivor of the Collective's rampage.  I love the original Alpha Flight and was hoping they'd have a come back someday...I guess it's not to be...

Guardian (poor Mac can't catch a break...It's back to being dead for him....He really, really died back in AF vol 1, #12, if you ask me), Vindicator (Heather Hudson, one of my very favorites, cool gal and great leader), Shaman (I didn't think Marvel had the guts to kill off another Native American/Canadian character again...He was a great character with great depth) and Puck (I loved that little guy)....Oh yeah Puck II and Major Mapleleaf II are dead as well (I didn't care so much about them, though).

The thing that bothers me almost as much (if not more so)...Is that American citizen, Michael Pointer (former host of the Collective), killer of said Alpha Flight members (against his will, of course)...Will be wearing the Guardian costume in the Omega Flight series as pennance.   :doh: :thumbdown:

R.I.P.  Alpha Flight  :(

Sigh...  :(

Sadfully,

Dana

Hmm interesting stuff, hadn't heard that yet.

Take some solace that there is a duplicate (or originals I'm not really sure) in like space or something right now. (Did anyone actually read that story and want to make sense of it to me now?)

The Marvel Handbooks state that the Temporal duplicates of Alpha disappeared after a while and the original Alphans returned from space (that was an awfully quick trip to the Plodex homeworld and back).  The handbooks then went on to state that it was the real AF who got creamed by the Collective...Sigh.

Dana :(

man that kinda sucks. But I'm kinda glad they did away with that duplicate thing it was just confusing.

Bendis is a pain at killing people.

This is almost as disappointing as the death of Wilbur Day.

See, where Alpha Flight, Ant Man, Jack Of Hearts etc went wrong is they haven't KILLED enough people.
If they were mass murderers like ares, the collective, bullseye etc etc they would have a glowing future at Marvel.
Instead they all just had those boring morals, tedious principles, out-of-date tendencies to help people.
If only they had torn someone in half, or had lots and lots of guns.
 

Yeah, I swear, it's about time they killed off that old fossil, Steve Rogers, the Punisher is the Captain America for the modern Marvel!

Quote from: tommyboy on March 08, 2007, 10:00:04 AM
See, where Alpha Flight, Ant Man, Jack Of Hearts etc went wrong is they haven't KILLED enough people.

Actually Jack did kill the guy who kidnapped Scott's daughter just prior to his "death". I still think Jack could easily be brought back.

Quote from: Podmark on March 08, 2007, 11:49:02 AMActually Jack did kill the guy who kidnapped Scott's daughter just prior to his "death".

Right. They had him kill someone, AND killed him off, at the same time. Obviously, covering the bases.

Quote from: Podmark on March 08, 2007, 11:49:02 AM

Quote from: tommyboy on March 08, 2007, 10:00:04 AM
See, where Alpha Flight, Ant Man, Jack Of Hearts etc went wrong is they haven't KILLED enough people.

Actually Jack did kill the guy who kidnapped Scott's daughter just prior to his "death". I still think Jack could easily be brought back.

One guy?
One lousy guy?
Feh!
That's why I said they haven't killed ENOUGH people.
Double digit body counts.
Triple digits.
Tens of thousands.
Those are PROPER numbers of people to have killed.
Hey, maybe they could get Galactus to join the "mighty avengers" as a fill in for Ares when he has a PTA meeting?
Heres the way it goes in the New Bendis Flavoured Marvel Universe:
Try to stop a defile or mugging(like Jack Flagg)= get locked up without trial for life in an alien dimension and/or get paralysed by Bullseye.
Kill everyone in your hometown plus hundred/thousands of others (like the collective)= go free with big government salary and get to wear the costume of someone you killed.
Make Mine Marrrrrvlllll... 

Haha, Tommy, you're killing me!  I didn't realize that you were this bitter....I can't say I blame you, and I feel the same way ^_^

Quote from: tommyboy on March 08, 2007, 01:09:38 PM

Quote from: Podmark on March 08, 2007, 11:49:02 AM

Quote from: tommyboy on March 08, 2007, 10:00:04 AM
See, where Alpha Flight, Ant Man, Jack Of Hearts etc went wrong is they haven't KILLED enough people.

Actually Jack did kill the guy who kidnapped Scott's daughter just prior to his "death". I still think Jack could easily be brought back.

One guy?
One lousy guy?
Feh!
That's why I said they haven't killed ENOUGH people.
Double digit body counts.
Triple digits.
Tens of thousands.
Those are PROPER numbers of people to have killed.
Hey, maybe they could get Galactus to join the "mighty avengers" as a fill in for Ares when he has a PTA meeting?
Heres the way it goes in the New Bendis Flavoured Marvel Universe:
Try to stop a defile or mugging(like Jack Flagg)= get locked up without trial for life in an alien dimension and/or get paralysed by Bullseye.
Kill everyone in your hometown plus hundred/thousands of others (like the collective)= go free with big government salary and get to wear the costume of someone you killed.
Make Mine Marrrrrvlllll... 

You make some striking points Tommy, but Pointer didn't kill Alpha Flight (and blow up Alaska) "Xorn" did, or whatever crazy explanation Bendis made up.

Though really it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Out of the entire lineups of the Mighty and New Avengers how many have killed people?

Ares = yes
Black Widow = probably
Iron Man = none that I know of
Ms. Marvel = no
Sentry = He ripped the Carnage symbiote in two, but that doesn't count.
Wasp = no
Wonderman = no

Doctor Strange = no
Echo = yes? (don't know much about her)
Ironfist = not that I know of
Luke Cage = not that I know of
Ronin = who knows
Spider-Man = no
Spider-Woman = I don't think so
Wolverine = yes

Thats like four that I know kill regularly, which is still high for world renowned super teams. The Widow only really kills when it's her mission, so she knows when to reign it in so it's really only three.

Now the fun one the Thunderbolts:

Green Goblin = yes
Moonstone = I can't recall anyone but she'd do it
Songbird = no
Venom = yes but I don't think Scorpion killed many people before becoming Venom.
Bullseye = yes
Penance = none voluntarily
Radioactive Man = I don't know, but he's not a killer
Swordsman = again I'm not sure

So out of the all new all murderous Thunderbolts we get a kill score of 3/8 members with a couple who are certainly capable but I can't recall any actual evidence. Really the only ones who could qualify as heroes are Songbird and R-Man, and hopefully Penance but we don't know yet if Ellis is going to turn Speedball into a murderer.

That was fun I should go through all the super teams :D

If we're talking about kills in general, then Iron Man did completely destroy that Mallen guy in the extremis arc...

At the risk of further derailment of the thread:

Ares = yes--------- (thousands, possibly millions over the course of the several thousand years of being god of war).
Black Widow = probably? ------She now is ALWAYS shown carrying guns rather than the non-lethal Widows Bite, so I'd say yes.
Iron Man = none that I know of? --------How about a plane full of people in recent Iron Man comics? Oh, sure he was "controlled", but isn't he always. Lets just remind ourselves of the napalm he sold to be used on Vietnamese children then.
Ms. Marvel = no? -------------Master of the World Avengers #48.Plus Air Force Intelligence officer, so likely to be willing to kill.
Sentry = He ripped the Carnage symbiote in two, but that doesn't count?----------- He is also the Void, who has killed thousands.
Wasp = no? --------------Not yet.
Wonderman = no? --------------Yes actually, in his own mag in the nineties he killed a number of people.

Doctor Strange = no? -------------Can't think of any offhand, but Bendis has only just started writing him.
Echo = yes? (don't know much about her) ---------Stabs people with swords. Duh?
Ironfist = not that I know of. ----------------So far
Luke Cage = not that I know of. -------------Ran with gangsters in youth, willing to beat Purple Man to death if not stopped by cap in NA#3
Ronin = who knows, -------------or cares anymore.
Spider-Man = no? --------------No.
Spider-Woman = I don't think so? ------------So the island full of Hydra Agents she blew up in NA#twentysomething doesn't count?
Wolverine = yes, -------------yes indeedy.

So it's a bit higher than you allow for, even though it may not be quite as bad as my ironic exaggerations may have implied.
my point would be that under bendis Avengers have gone from a "No killing, ever" type team to a "teh killing is kewl" type team.
And the new Omega flight will just be more of the same, in my opinion (yay for getting back on topic, almost) 

Yeah I don't pretend to know all continuity, and I'm not really up to date on New Avengers save some specific things. However my yes/no was more of a are they likely to kill on a any given mission and I think most of my answers pass on that basis.

But you are right Bendis is a kill-crazy writer. Supposedly he constantly asked his editors and Quesada if he can kill people. So the Avengers have certainly had a fundamental shift.

Now on Omega Flight I'm less convinced they'll be a kill heavy team but I really don't know any of the characters, or the writer for that matter, well enough to say.

Alpha Flight not killers?  That's not how I remember it...

In the Byrne run...

Guardian may have killed Jerry Jaxon, when he shorted out the Box robot (being cybernetically controlled by Jaxon, at the time).

Sasquatch inadvertantly killed his great aunt, Gilded Lily when he removed her life-sustaining mask.

Snowbird killed her team-mate Walter Langkowski/Sasquatch, when she discovered he was the host of one of the Great Beasts, her sworn enemies.

Mantlo's run and beyond (as much as I can recall at the moment)...

Puck kills the almost unkillable, Deadly Ernest with Nemesis' sword.

Vindicator/Heather Hudson kills the villainous Bedlam by blowing his head off with a power blast.

Alpha Flight considers killing Goblyn (and Heather nearly does so), thinking her to be a mindless animal...They are stopped by the Purple Girl, who convinces them there is more to her than that.

Vindicator/Heather kills team-mate Snowbird to prevent her from killing her own child (then possessed by the evil being known as Pestilence).

Box IV/Madison Jeffries killed Omega (a combination of his flesh-manipulating brother, Lionel and his best friend and creator of the Box robot, Roger Bochs).

I believe Aurora even killed Headlok, after he played with her mind a bit.

Thay have been known to be killers (usually their own team-mates, unfortunately...LOL).

Dana

So, we all seem to be basicly back on the subject of people being written out of character.  Well here's the deal.  These characters have been around for years now, many have been around for decades, but Marvel, instead of creating a entirely fresh batch of characters for a new generation, decided to use the the old characters in "inventive" ways since the newer generations don't know the characters as well as the older generations, such as making the Avengers a team of killers.  Or making Ironman evil.  DC hasn't made a new crop either, but it seems Marvel is doing much worse right now.

I'm just curious why Beta Ray Bill, is in Canada of all places.

I'm a HUGE fan of Alpha Flight, and now an even bigger Bendis hater. He decides he wants to screw around with the Sentry, fine, he's new, whatever. He decides he is going write narratives in the form of blogs, fine, stupid but whatever. He decides he wantsto kill off Alpha Flight...why again?... no, not fine. I'd really like to hear from a Bendis fan, I mean I just can't get over all the plain stupid things this guy has taken liberties with. And no, an Omega Flight mini-series does not make up for this.

I agree BBO...Whole-Heartedly. 

I was psyched that Bendis brought back one of my old favorite heroines from the 70s/80s...Jessica Drew, the Original Spider-Woman!!  However, I hated that he screwed up her origin even more in the Spider-Woman: Origins mini and I despise him even more for the death of Alpha Flight.

Dana :(

Wasn't Alpha Flight dead before? That was a series that had what? 3 tries to do something and each time fell? I'm not missing Alpha Flight because they haven't affected the Marvel Universe in years. I say, go ahead and kill some heroes/villains that haven't been around for some time. At least I could look at the pretty picture of their death and talk about it later. I much prefer that there was a sense of mortalitly for supers, as I personally think it gives them some credibility. That's the problem I have with DC. Everyone over there is virtually immortal. Marvel likes to keep it's supers in check.

Alpha Flight has always been edgy, at least in comparison with what the Avengers used to be, so I'm not shocked by the kill score.

As for doing away with them?  Well, don't get me wrong; I liked the original Alpha Flight.  But when Marvel has essentially turned nearly every other superhero/superhero team into Alpha Flight (borrowing some of the same themes), they no longer have a place.

Oh, man.  I hate to say this but Tommy isn't near as bitter as I am.  I freakin' hate hate hate hate Marvel and DC right now.  I'd even settle for the days when everyone had a black leather jacket, body armor, and countless pouches right about now.  I'm the anti-Thanoson...I love the Silver Age when things were black and white.

Anyway, Alpha Flight has been rather edgy at times, as said before.  There was one particular run involving the Demon Queen (or something like that) and the Purple Man that was rather intense.  And don't forget, Alpha Flight 107(?) was the "first time" a character was out of the closet.  Of course if you read any of the the first 12 issues it was pretty obvious Northstar was gay.

Ms. Marvel (in her first run) was prepared to kill if she needed to.  Of course this series was written by C. Claremont, so you can imagine how much psycho-babble self-loathing was going on. 

Iron Man did kill an ambassador to some weird country waaay back around issue 120.  His armor was controlled by Justin Hammer, so it probably doesn't count....then he became a drunk...and the character was ruined forever more.   :)

Quote from: Xenolith on March 20, 2007, 05:17:35 PM
And don't forget, Alpha Flight 107(?) was the "first time" a character was out of the closet.  Of course if you read any of the the first 12 issues it was pretty obvious Northstar was gay.

I believe DC already had an openly gay hero in the New Guardians before that issue of Alpha Flight came out, actually.

Quote from: Xenolith on March 20, 2007, 05:17:35 PM
Iron Man did kill an ambassador to some weird country waaay back around issue 120.  His armor was controlled by Justin Hammer, so it probably doesn't count....then he became a drunk...and the character was ruined forever more.   :)

Actually, I think Tony Stark's second (and longer) battle with alchoholism was one of the most heroic things I've ever seen in a comic. The issue where he finally made the descision to get sober, while saving the life of a new-born child, was one of the few comics that actually brought tears to my eyes.

To nothing in particular....."BAH."

Quote from: thanoson on March 20, 2007, 09:44:19 AM
Wasn't Alpha Flight dead before? That was a series that had what? 3 tries to do something and each time fell? I'm not missing Alpha Flight because they haven't affected the Marvel Universe in years. I say, go ahead and kill some heroes/villains that haven't been around for some time. At least I could look at the pretty picture of their death and talk about it later. I much prefer that there was a sense of mortalitly for supers, as I personally think it gives them some credibility. That's the problem I have with DC. Everyone over there is virtually immortal. Marvel likes to keep it's supers in check.

Yeah...So if Marvel can't find writers that are able to successfully write a character, said characters should be killed off? That's the one of the dumbest things that I've ever heard...it's egually too easy and the coward's way of dealing with characters.  Writing characters well and making them a success...Now that's a challenge.

The first volume of Alpha Flight was the most successful (130 issues of success, hardly a failure) and Marvel has not tried once to bring the team back to it's roots (a back to basics approach) in the 2nd and 3rd volumes.  I think that's the only way the characters will work...Get back to what was great about the  characters, get a great writer and art crew and you're golden.

As far as mortality giving super heroes/villains credibility...This is comics we're talking about, Thanoson...Remember?  If you think heroes and villains need to die and stay dead to make them credible, then maybe it's time for a new hobby.

Dana :P

Nah, I don't need a new hobby. But I also don't believe in the A-Team/G.I Joe mentality of comics eg; millions of bullets and and nobody dying. You are talking about sociapaths that are bent on killing heroes and whoever else gets in the way. The Villains should get their day too. They can't always be stopped in their plans. Death sells. Look at almost all the big storylines and someone in them has died. Mutant Massacre/both Crisis/Assault on Muir Island/Annihilation, etc.... You may not like the fact that they resort to death to get the story over, but the fans that are buying all the comics in less than an hour do. Hell, I loved in Supreme Power when Redstone was just tossing people through the mall, just to watch them splat. That made him a crazy SOB and a real loose cannon. He was a threat, not only to the heroes, but to the civilians as well.

 :rolleyes: