I really love both these characters but lets look at the facts. Captain Marvel is a being that is almost Superman's equal. Superman has invulnerablility and maybe strength over the Captain but Marvel has that lovely power of Zeus that Kal-El's invulnerablity is useless against. We all seen what the lightning did to a Superman with maximum invulnerablity in Kingdom Come. About a dozen hits of the lightning and Superman would be softened up enough for the strength of Hercules to put him down. What do you guys think?

1) "Dude With Magic Lightning > Superman" isn't really under debate. It's just accepted.
2) Why is this in General?

I suppose I could have posted this in Comics, oh well. Reason I posted, was watching Justice League episode, "Clash" and was venting because they have Supes besting Marvel, which is just wrong. I wanted to see Marvel humble Kal, damit! :angry:

*sigh*


do we have to do this every time?


For the last...

Captain Marvel's lightning has NO MAGICAL PROPERTIES BEYOND TRANSFORMING HIM INTO THE CAPTAIN.

Meaning, that a side by side comparison with normal lightning to anyone else would be identical. In Greek Mythology (where the basis of Cap's power more or less is) Zeus threw EVERY bolt of lightning, that doesn't make lightning magical.

If Marvel really had Magic Lightning, then just one bolt would have killed Supes...ripped right through his invulnerability and flash-fried him. Didn't happen. What DID happen was after 6 or 7 strikes of lightning, Supes was STILL fast enough and strong enough to grab and restrain him.

Storm of the X-men could put a hurting on Superman by throwing lightning at him. Did you even watch the Superman of the animated universe? He was ALWAYS getting zapped by electricity. Livewire almost had him down, for cripes' sake. Thor commands lightning too, but it's not magic lightning either.

I've heard this exact argument about Thor too. That just because Mjolnir is a magical weapon that makes everything it does magic too.
That's like saying that Sunlight is magical, just because it kills vampires. Thor doesn't command magic wind. Unless it's the Winds of Watoomb that Dr Strange calls up from another dimension. Magic, by its very definition is energy that exists outside of the laws of nature.

Don't feel bad...professional comics writers even make this mistake. There are tons of examples in print of both sides of this debate.


Ok, here's 2 situations...

Thor vs Superman.

1) Thor hits Superman with Mjolnir.
2) Thor hits Superman with a regular Sledgehammer.

In both examples, Superman would probably get himself a black eye. Because he was hit by THOR. But Mjolnir would probably not suffer any worse for the wear, due to it being a magic hammer made of uru metal, while the Sledge would probably look like that bullet that bounced off Supes' eye.

Captain America, weilding Mjolnir probably not cause Superman much more damage than Cap weilding the Sledge. Because he's friggin' Superman.

Everybody get it now?


and...btw, moving to Comics.

Um, no. Anything magical affects Superman as it would affect a normal person. Hit Superman with Mjolnir, and he goes flying. Hit him with a magic sword, he bleeds.

And you can't say that Marvel's or Thor's lightning isn't itself magical (barring some sort of canonical proof). The ability to call lightning is not natural. You're arguing that the magic is in triggering it, and that the result is natural. But... you can't have lightning without pre-existing conditions (specifically, certain ranges of electric charge in a cloud). Somehow I doubt that the ancient gods or whoever invented the various magical spells and enchantments invented a spell to teleport electrons out of collections of vapor.

I'm not saying my point is necessarily right, but I can definitely back mine up-- read the 3rd issue of Kingdom Come. Supes cuts his finger on Wondy's sword, whose only magical property is having been made by Hephaestus.

Find me some canonical evidence explaining that Thor or Marvel's lightning isn't magic. Or that Mjolnir doesn't clean Supes' clock.

And even then... bah... who cares. The writing's so inconsistent, we can probably find half a dozen pieces of hard, canonical evidence for each side. As you said, the writers are as confused as we are. However... that DOESN'T mean you're right, and the examples that contradict you are wrong. It means we're both right and both wrong due to DC's lazy, butchered continuity. The whole idea of having a "weakness" is insane and illogical, and attempting to reason it out is futile.

Yet more evidence that Marvel > DC. Name me one Marvel character with a "weakness".

Well, I can't name you just one, because they all have the same weakness......bad writing.  (ha, at least now-a-days, but DC suffers the same affliction)

Actually, on that note, I'd tighten it up a bit and say that the collective weakness of all DC and Marvel heroes is continuity. Arguments like this one about Superman are stupid and shouldn't have to happen. The stories should be coherent and internally consistent. Unfortunately, writers come and go, and pay varying amounts of attention to canon, so we get butchered continuity.

The only two comics I read now are Invincible and The Ultimates. They're not especially noteworthy in any way, but the fact that they're not dragged down by decades of continuity lets the writers write what they want (and, depending on your opinion, what should be written to properly tell the story), making much cleaner stories.

There was a Wizard article a couple years back asking if Marvel should Ultimize their entire universe. I didn't think so at the time, but with a couple more years of perspective on the issue, I think it's a great idea. Not so much that they all need to become gritty, realistic stories, but rather, they all just need to snip off the history and start fresh.

Continuity kills comics.

As I have already said, there are examples a'plenty to support both sides of the debate. And I'm not saying I'm right, rather that the other way of thinking makes no sense.

And yes, I had just re-read Kingdom come #4 as I was typing the previous post, to make sure I had my info straight.

Cap Marvel's "Magic lightning" should have blasted through Superman like the Ersatz-Thor's blast did to Black Goliath in Civil War. It didn't.
A Magic Hammer akin to a magic sword should have crushed Superman's skull, then when weilded by Thor.

It's not natural to create/call lightning where before there was none, but Storm's been doing that for years, and she's not magical. Unless she's calling forth Zeus's magic bolts.

Thor is the God of Thunder. That means he Commands the storms. He does not create Magic storms, he magically creates regular ones.

Yes, Wonder Woman's sword was made by a god, as Mjolnir was, but her sword's magical properties were to be strong and sharp. If her sword's magical abilities were strictly limited to it glowing blue, it wouldn't pierce his hide any more than any ordinary sword. Batman, weilding Wondy's sword would probably still cut him. Batman with Thor's hammer wouldn't send him flying across the room (unless Mjolnir is a "Hammer of Knockback"). yet, both are magic weapons.

That's all I'm saying. magic, in and of itself, doesn't always immediately negate Superman's invulnerability.

Just like Kryptonite doesn't. Kryptonite just makes him weak, and does not mean he can be shot with kryptonite bullets. Sorry. It doesn't work that way. And yes, I am well aware that it has been written that way numerous times. That's why it drives me crazy. It's sloppy. A Superman that's been around the stuff for awhile, long enough for it to sap his strength, sure, maybe he can get stabbed by Kevin Spacey with a kryptonite shiv. but a full power Supes getting shot from a distance, would still bounce right off his hide like any other rock.


As for the Ultimate Line, I only really have one problem with it...The writers are not trying to be new and fresh. Across the board, they are all doing the same thing, which is getting the books right in line with regular Marvel continuity. They're using all the same characters, same situations, but writing the stories with the benefit of hindsight, instead of going a new direction. I don't really want to see Ultimate Alcoholic Tony. I could care less about seeing the Ultimate version of Spidey villain A-Z. I want to see how putting these guys in a world closer to the real world would look and feel. Give them some real world situations, and let them be heroic.

Maybe I'm just getting too old to suspend my disbelief...

Quote from: captainspud on February 07, 2007, 11:56:57 PM

Yet more evidence that Marvel > DC. Name me one Marvel character with a "weakness".

Well, there is Hyperion and Gladiator........ :P

About the superman weak vs magic debate I think Protomorph mostly summed it up neatly with the "whatever the magic part does affects him". If something is enchanted to be sharp, it is sharp to superman. If something is enchanted to give you gas, it gives superman gas.

On the other hand something like thors hammer or purely magical bolts of lightning shouldent tear though him like a paper doll because he still has super freakish endurance. Think of it as hitpoints and invulnerability... his invulnerability is ignored by thors hammer so it does a full healthy 50 points of damage... against supermans 300 health.

And yeah, I can picture non magical bolts bringing superman down. Im from the "actually halfway interesting" superman camp instead of the "foaming at the mouth dc fanboy" camp that loves superman flying in and out of supernovas, juggling planets and moving at the speed of light.

And hyperion and Gladiator arent the only one with weaknesses... how about sentry? He's not a superman style character...    ;)

But yeah, the idea of having a weakness comes as a failsafe of making your characters more powerful each weak and still being able to tell a non god themed story. I mean superman developed a new super power every month for a while...

every single one of the original marvel characters had a weakness.  a real one, one that would make their characters interesting and eventually revolutionary icons.
spider-man - his weakness was that he was still a kid trying t olive up to a sense of duty, responsibility and guilt because of his uncle's death.  this weakness caused him to make numerous sacrifices in relationships, wealth, and general well-being

The Hulk - he was his own weakness, his rage made him uncontrollable, creates the whole question that what is a man, or a hero that is controlled (and depends on) his own rage

Iron Man - his original weakness... his heart, metaphorically having no heart he tries to right wrongs (made i nthe world and by his own company), pursue 'meaningful' relationships (usually only on a physical level, but neglecting the relationships in front of his nose), and ends up driving himself too far... leading to his second weakness, becoming an alcoholic

The Fantastic Four - no overt weaknesses here,  but superstardom and vanity lead to internal problems... thing and johnny always fighting over superficial things, mister fantastic being wrapped up (literally and figuratively) in his own supergenius brain, and the invisible girl ... one of the most explicit examples of self-esteem issues ever seen, and her need to connect with people who will acutally see her,  like namor or black panther.

but these weaknesses make the characters appear human.  i think superman's weakness to magic is just an addendum to the character to convey that... yeah this uber-powerful alien is actually a lot more like us than we realize... otherworldly magic affects him the same way it does us.  Writers utilize this in order to make us empathize with the character sometimes... which leads to inconsistent continuity, as different writers employ different tactics in order to get different reactions from the readers.

I say, let continuity become a multi-headed hydra, rejoice in the pre-crisis, post-crisis, 616, ultimate, movie and video game continuities... they are a vast well for creators to draw upon and play with. i want to see willem dafoe tackle ben reilly while spiderboy watches from the sidelines (which happen to be part of the Bleed).

bah,  or it might just be koreas finest beer talking.

first off i agree noone is right or wrong,poor writing is the culprit, that aside magical lightning is magical. magic used to summon a storm that brings lightning as an attack is not,storm is summoning lightning from the weather or through herself is not

a magic user cast a lightning bolt at superman-he gets no resistance and the bolt will hurt him for the damage(probably full ammount)

storm summons lightning to attack superman and he will first apply his resistance and then takes damage at a reduced ammount

superman is a powerhouse and has alot of health,so most attacks if magical wont rip him apart, but to me there would definetly be a difference as to how much damage superman will take

Quote from: lugaru on February 08, 2007, 04:31:55 AM
On the other hand something like thors hammer or purely magical bolts of lightning shouldent tear though him like a paper doll because he still has super freakish endurance. Think of it as hitpoints and invulnerability... his invulnerability is ignored by thors hammer so it does a full healthy 50 points of damage... against supermans 300 health.

Y'know, I never thought of it in those terms, but that makes sense. Superman's not weak to magic, that place is reserved for kryptonite, mind control, Ma Kent's home cookin', and whatever else those dang writers want to throw in nowadays. He's just not as invunerable to it as to, say, a bullet.

Here's an example: Let's say a guy shoots 3 bullets at Supes- one regular, one kryptonite, and one magic. The first one would bounce off. No arguement there. The K bullet would not only cut through his skin, it would absorb the yellow sun rays he's absorbed, effectively poisoning him, and, if left untreated, would kill him. The magic bullet, the way I've always interpreted it, would not bounce off, but would not be mortally dangerous. The magic wouldn't prevent him from healing himself in its normal, excellerated rate, unless that's what the magic was supposed to do. But that's a whole different can of worms. In short, the magic one wouldn't kill him, just slow him down.

Now, about the lightning. I've always thought Cap's lightning was magic, while Thor's isn't. Here's my explaination. Unless I'm mistaken (and I could be, I'm not a big Thor follower), Thor's lightning doesn't come out of the Mjolnir, meaning it's coming from a regular storm, magically created. Cap's lightning comes from the Rock of Eternity, possibly Shazam himself, which is the magical source of his, and all of the marvel families', powers. Case in point, when The Rock had to be rebuilt, all of the Marvel's powers stopped working, except for Billy, who had absorbed all of Shazam's abilities. Therefore, since it comes from a magical source, it is magic.

not an expert on cap marvel, but thor -can- shhot lightning -from- mjolnir (god blast anyone) it's influenced by the divine and made in a magical manner, therefore.... magical lightning.
storm manipulates the weather, I presume everyone here knows how lightning occurs in a natural state... hardly a valid comparison.
another comparison to make with thor and cap marvel vs supes, both their bodies are not their own, and actually made from :O magic! so pretty much if cap marvel wanted to hit supes properly, he'd be halfway through supes defences before we even add magical strength into the equasion

I've been part of this conversation before, on this board and other places, but I'll wade into the fray again.  If I get an enchanted hammer with the magic effect that it can turn into a banana, a lot of people on this board seem to be of the opinion that I could then beat Superman with it.  Those people, in short, are wrong.  Though some writers don't understand this either, the way it works is as : if the effect of magic is directly damaging, Superman's powers still apply, whether it's lightning, magic hammers, energy blasts, whatever; if the magic has another effect, say transformation, or teleportation, Superman is just as vulnerable to those effects as a normal human being.

Evidence of this: as demonstrated in Kingdom Come, the big source cited by the OP and many others, Cap Marvel hits Superman with the lightning multiple times, and Superman still isn't down for the count; it hurt him, somewhat.  Remember, this is lightning powerful enough that it breaches the atomic warhead's force field, a field designed to withstand the powers of all known superhumans.  That should be enough to hurt Superman to some degree, leaving magic out of the equation all together.

Now, if you are of the belief that magic negates Superman's powers, then he should be a dead, charred corpse.  A normal person would be after multiple massive lightning strikes.  Some people will argue that it's only Superman's invulnerability that is negated, that his massive endurance lets him take those several hits; however, his massive endurance is a function of his powers as well: why should one be ignored by magic and not the other?

This view is complicated by Superman getting nicked by Wonder Woman's sword though, also in Kingdom Come.  The real problem, as many have noted, is that this 'weakness' or 'vulnerability' to magic has never been clearly defined by DC - either Superman should have been killed by Marvel's lightning, or not cut by WW's sword.  Take your pick.

I have never said that Captain Marvel's summoned lightning had NO magical properties. It does. But only one: It carries the transformative power that -only- applies to members of the Marvel Family. Or else it would have granted Superman those abilities. It therefore only should have, to all other people, the qualities of typical lightning.

That Captain Marvel has powers fueled by magic, doesn't mean that a punch from him goes straight through Superman's defenses. They've fought several times, and it has never been portrayed like that. Cap Marvel puts a hurting on Supes, but not because of the magic, but because of his immense strength. If Cap Marvel had the same powerset, save for the strength (the power of SAZAM!), He would not be able to defeat Superman, even though he is magic.

There's particularly stupid thing that was done in an issue of Superman several years back. Unfortunately, I don't have the issue handy so I can't tell you which writer to blame for this:

Superman gets mesmerized, then bitten, by Count Dracula who intends to turn him into a super-vampire under his control. However, due to some completely lame explanation that has to do with Superman absorbing solar energy, biting Superman causes Dracula to be instantly incinerated as if he were standing in direct sunlight and Supes snaps out of the trance.

So if Superman encounters a vampire all he has to do is stick out his arm (or neck) and say "have a bite" to defeat them. Nevermind the fact his heat vision would likely do the trick.

:rolleyes:

*edit* Proto, if Marvel had the powers of Hazam, he'd be stong but stupid. The `S' is wisdom of Solomon. The strength comes from Hercules.

I did realize that, but you ninja'd me. I was thinking s=strength.  :doh:



As for the vampire, I do remember that story. the solar soaked blood did the trick.

I'm not sure when he had met a vampire before that (possibly pre-Crisis?), but I seem to recall breaking fangs against his skin. There is a prime example of writers being stupid and not doing their homework.


setting all of this aside, for the moment, IF Superman had been successfully transformed (it's possible, if you kept him out of the sunlight long enough). Would he incinerate from the sun faster then he regenerated from it? hee hee.

for that matter, would vampires still have to equally fear a red sun?

Isn't Thor's hammer imbued with smashing properties as well? I find it hard to believe that the enchantments that allow a sword, one that was not enhanted to cut through anything, to cut Supes are not allowed for a hammer to hurt him. Does that make sense? I'm in the agreement that magic attacks do full damage, just that he has A LOT of hit points.

Magic is tricky... but it boils down to a form of energy that has a specific purpose attatched to it.  A bolt of mystic lightning might not even have the power of intention to electrocute behind it (if that makes sense). 

For instance, Circe blasts Wonder Woman with glowing purple lightning, but it doesn't electrocute the surrounding area, it mostly jars Wondy and knocks her back a few feet.  Electricity doesn't behave that way!  Also no way in Hades could anyone deflect it using metal bracelets (hello!)

The intention the witch had when she cast the spell was to inflict pain and propel force at Diana.  That is what the spell did.  If Wondy happened to be holding moly (the herb that renders one immune to Circe's spells) the bolt would have bounced off an invisible, spherical aura around her.

Similarly, Captain Marvel in Kingdom Come intended for his magic lightning to strike Supes with magical force, not transformation.  It also ended up adding a power to Cap's arsenal that he'd never before demonstrated.  If it was regular lightning, Post Crisis Supes would most likely say it tickled.  It had its intended effect on Superman because magic always affects Superman the way it is intended to.

Captain Marvel, Thor, and Wonder Woman are all magic-based heroes.  Their strength is magic in nature, so wherever DC decides today that they fall in relation to Supes, they'll still have the ability to affect him.  I don't believe it when somebody says "Wonder Woman isn't strong enough to affect Superman, nothing can hurt him."  Magic spells affect him, magic weapons can cut him, and magically strong beings can hurt him.  If a wizard used a spell to give himself super-strength, on the level of Doomsday, then he can certainly hold his own against Superman.

Quote from: Revenant on February 08, 2007, 02:45:39 PM
Captain Marvel, Thor, and Wonder Woman are all magic-based heroes.  Their strength is magic in nature, so wherever DC decides today that they fall in relation to Supes, they'll still have the ability to affect him.  I don't believe it when somebody says "Wonder Woman isn't strong enough to affect Superman, nothing can hurt him."  Magic spells affect him, magic weapons can cut him, and magically strong beings can hurt him.  If a wizard used a spell to give himself super-strength, on the level of Doomsday, then he can certainly hold his own against Superman.

But if someone has the strength of Doomsday, it wouldn't really matter if it's source is magical, that person is already strong enough to damage Superman.  He's not totally invincible barring magic or kryptonite; Wonder Woman and Capt. Marvel are both strong enough that they could hurt him somewhat, regardless of their magical nature, just as J'onn J'onnz, Darkseid, Mongul, and others are or would be able to hurt him through sheer physical force.

That vampire thing is dumb, how could one bite him? 

Worse part is that somebody did the vampire thing before, only different. Any hellblazer fans in the audience? Vampire bites John Constantine and the demon blood (long story) in his veins tears through the vampires jaw like acid. After a nasty humiliation he drags the vampire into the rising sun and that is that.

all this noise about whether the lightning bolts can hurt supes, its been shown in KC that it can, so there is one-up that the captain has on Kal-El. so how about once he gets hit by one of those bolts, he realises they hurt like heck, and he uses that superspeed (thats just below the frickin' flash's level), and MOVES!
seriously, i don't see supes being so dumb as to stick around and take six or seven of them....again...i think that bit in kingdom come was a bit sloppy, the way a guy who can move faster than lightning, thought or reaction stood there for a half dozen of the sparky lil suckers.
Again it comes down to the writing, cos superman never gets to use his powers as effectively as he should.
Lets add to superman all his powers, cos some of you guys are neglecting tha all the captain can do is be strong, tough and fast (and the niggling lightning bolt). the wisdom of solomon? its one thing to be wise, its another to be sly and crafty, its another thing to be tactical. supes went through a lot of training with mongul et al. to increase his ability to use his powers simultaneously. so billy can be tought and fast and strong, and while he does that superman unleashes his incomprable arsenal of abilities on the poor guy.
supes is generally accepted as stronger, faster, tougher, (really, cap is said to be just about supes equal in strength and speed, not his actual equal, while never tested in a pound for pound comparison it is generally accepted) plus his enhanced reactions, superhuman senses, heat vision, arctic breath and the fact that he is just a better fighter. he has been doing the superhero game a lot longer and a lot harder than billy batson. he has fought much deadlier foes and come away the victor. until billy takes down doomsday-multiple times-whoops on imperiex and knocks out the hulk in two pages or less, i have to call in the favour of the last son of krypton.
can the captain fight and react at superspeeds, or just move ie. fly and run?
cos unless he can react at a superhuman like flash and superman can, throwing a thousand punches a second, moving in and out of your attacks at dragonball like superspeed, then its game over, man.
the ability to throw a hundred punches to your opponents one is too huge an advantage. add heat vision et al. and its a no-brainer. If we took away the fact that neither man wants to hurt the other, and just have them fight (not to the death cos neither of them are killers) then the fight really should be over before it starts. One superspeed earth circling uppercut followed by a simultaneous heat vision arctic breath barrage and a flurry of a hundred planet breaking punches per second, and its billy batsons bedtime.

i normally dont post in which hero can beat which, but it seems like people are always taking a shot at my boy supes. Why? all he does is be a paragon of truth and justice, selfless and a symbol of hope and peace...so naturally lets all rag on the character cos writers decided that he is the strongest. well guess what? someone has to be the strongest! if it wasn't Kal it'd be someone else (maybe the captain) would you all takes shots at him then? the captain is as good and wholesome and upstanding as kal-el...just not as vocal or visible. for two characters so simiolar, why is it y'all feel you have to take Superman down a couple of pegs?

While I am one of the ones on Superman's side in this, Capt. Marvel is super-fast as well.  Some would argue faster, though those would be weiners.

Well I am a Superman fan as well, but I also like the other characters.  I am primarily a Wonder Woman fan and she often gets the shaft when appearing in a Superman title. 

As long as DC puts stories out there where "only Superman is good enough" or "Only Superman survives to save the day"  or "The Multiverse always starts with a Superman"  you are going to have fans of other good, wholesome, truth/justice characters that are resentful.  We get it shoved down our throats that Superman is the strongest on a monthly basis.  What about the rich variety of other DC heroes?  Are they chopped liver?

Marvel I admire because on any given Sunday, one of its powerhouses could take on another.  Thor might whoop Hulk's arse but then Captain America could take him down.  Only to get beaten by Spidey, who Thor takes down next ish.  It's more interesting than "Superman shows up and saves the day.  And again tomorrow, and wow, he also saves next week and a week from tuesday."

Testify.

That's why the Timmverse trumps all..........

Quote from: Revenant on February 08, 2007, 05:27:27 PM
Well I am a Superman fan as well, but I also like the other characters.  I am primarily a Wonder Woman fan and she often gets the shaft when appearing in a Superman title. 

As long as DC puts stories out there where "only Superman is good enough" or "Only Superman survives to save the day"  or "The Multiverse always starts with a Superman"  you are going to have fans of other good, wholesome, truth/justice characters that are resentful.  We get it shoved down our throats that Superman is the strongest on a monthly basis.  What about the rich variety of other DC heroes?  Are they chopped liver?

Marvel I admire because on any given Sunday, one of its powerhouses could take on another.  Thor might whoop Hulk's arse but then Captain America could take him down.  Only to get beaten by Spidey, who Thor takes down next ish.  It's more interesting than "Superman shows up and saves the day.  And again tomorrow, and wow, he also saves next week and a week from tuesday."

But who has the strongest powers shouldn't factor into who is your favourite character, or the one you find most interesting.  That Superman is physically more powerful than most heroes doesn't make him a better character; in fact I know many people who say it makes him boring.  And while Marvel has its characters typically at closer standings, you can generally say Hulk and Thor are more powerful than Cap and Spidey.  Who's stronger between Hulk and Thor, and Cap and Spidey, well, those are subjects for other debates (Hulk and Spidey FTW, though :) ).  Marvel does have its uber characters too though, like the Silver Surfer, Gladiator, and the Sentry (the latter two both Superman analogues of course). 

I think Superman has been beaten down respectably by Captain Marvel (Kingdom Come) and Wonder Woman (The OMAC Project) ... both physically and with the use of magic (lightning, WW's magic tiara).

If he got beaten down regularly, he wouldn't be Superman ... he'd be, I dunno, Nightwing or Green Arrow, or a similar non-iconic but well-known hero.

I think DC needs Superman to have a vulnerability with magic to give him some decent opponents, instead of having to invent a new Doomsday, Mongul, Lobo, random alien of comparable strength level the audience has never heard of before and cluttering up the DC universe.

I don't have any problem with Superman's non-invulnerability to magic (or vulnerability to kryptonite for that matter), but sometimes writers start using those things as crutches to present him with challenges. As I believe randyripoff has mentioned before, the key to interesting Superman stories is to make sure you don't just give him a striing of problems that he can punch in the face. But, some writers think that the only interesting stories are ones where the hero might lose a physical fight, and that leads to every fourth bad guy being teh uber or using magic or kryptonite or red sun rays or whatever the weakness of the day was.