The Giant Marvel Ciematic Universe Debate Thread, Mark XVII

[HarryTrotter]

Well like I said Marvel has a history of using Serbia as a battleground.So IMO it will just be a setting for a showdown.
Or a scene where Avengers save people from earthquake to establish them as worldwide heroes.

[steamteck]

However, given your thoughts on the relative merits of the Dark Knight and Man of Steel, I doubt we're going to have the same opinions here.

True that but an interesting conversation nonetheless. I now have a perspective how an intelligent superhero fan could enjoy IM3

[HarryTrotter]

This Scarlet Witch,Quicksilver thing makes me wonder:
If people(in Marvel universe) like superheroes like Avengers why do they hate mutants like X-men?

[Tomato]

You're assuming people like the other heroes of the Marvel universe... the reality is, the citizens of the Marvel Universe have always had much more of a love/hate relationship with all their heroes. Look at characters like Spider-man, who busts his butt saving people, only for his own boss to constantly bash him on the news. The Avengers have, on more than one occasion, been required to have liaisons assigned to them by the US Government in order to build up trust with the populace.

That being said, there has always been more of a stigma on mutants than with heroes like Captain America or Iron Man. A good chunk of that is just that the core message of the X-men books is about combating intolerance, so writers tend to focus most of their attention on the antagonism on both sides of the fence. Plus, I think there's more of a fear when it comes to Mutants... if you get your powers through a suit of high tech armor, or through a chemical compound, or whatever, then A. it's entirely possible everyone could get the same powers, and B. you feel like whoever does have those powers somehow earned them, and at least has some measure of control over them. But if you can get a mutation from just random chance... who's to say that the creepy stalker kid won't wake up with the ability to go invisible and watch girls in the shower, or whatever. And even with good mutants, just because you're born with an ability doesn't mean you can control it. There are legitimate fears with that, and it's why you see things like the Superhuman registration act pop up every so often.

Aka:

[HarryTrotter]

^Yes,I get the tolerance/anti-rasicm of X-men,but thats not my point.
I mean why is HumanTorch ok and Magma,Sunfire and Pyro are dangerous mutants?Superpowers or mutant power,why is it so different?

[Tomato]

You're assuming people like the other heroes of the Marvel universe... the reality is, the citizens of the Marvel Universe have always had much more of a love/hate relationship with all their heroes. Look at characters like Spider-man, who busts his butt saving people, only for his own boss to constantly bash him on the news. The Avengers have, on more than one occasion, been required to have liaisons assigned to them by the US Government in order to build up trust with the populace.

That being said, there has always been more of a stigma on mutants than with heroes like Captain America or Iron Man. A good chunk of that is just that the core message of the X-men books is about combating intolerance, so writers tend to focus most of their attention on the antagonism on both sides of the fence. Plus, I think there's more of a fear when it comes to Mutants... if you get your powers through a suit of high tech armor, or through a chemical compound, or whatever, then A. it's entirely possible everyone could get the same powers, and B. you feel like whoever does have those powers somehow earned them, and at least has some measure of control over them. But if you can get a mutation from just random chance... who's to say that the creepy stalker kid won't wake up with the ability to go invisible and watch girls in the shower, or whatever. And even with good mutants, just because you're born with an ability doesn't mean you can control it. There are legitimate fears with that, and it's why you see things like the Superhuman registration act pop up every so often.

My post. Read it.

[HarryTrotter]

^Yes,I did.But think about it,a lot of bad people gained their powers  cuz of chemicals or accidents.About mutants going out of control:NOT ALL OF THEM have that problem and even Iron Man had his suit taken over 999 so he can be danger if you think of it that way.
True people sometimes dont trust superheros but when were they ever gratefull to mutants?

[Tomato]

Yes, and if you look back, how many times did the Avengers get dumped on by the population for that very reason. Think about just how quickly people turned on CAPTAIN AMERICA during the Civil War arc because of a single decision. How much nonsense does Spiderman take, on a daily basis, because people fear what they don't understand? How much garbage does the Thing take for his appearance? The movie avengers are praised because they just saved the world, but people were still willing to turn on Captain America not too long afterward.

Yes, mutants have historically had it worse, but there HAVE been stories where the X-men have been praised for saving the world, and there are constantly individuals thanking them for this or that act. Mutants are hated by certain organizations and communities, but there is still shown to be enough positive sentiment among the population that none of the anti-mutant bills have ever passed, and the Avengers have been praised for including mutants as well. But because the X-men's focus is almost entirely on combating racism, we tend to focus more on the racists.

[HarryTrotter]

Public opinions do change too easly.Thunderbolts(original) are the best Marvel example.Maybe its just me,but in a world where Nordic gods are around people hate a guy who looks different,thats kinda pointless.
Second thing that seemed stupid is that mutant-haters go all KKK on people with superpower.

[BWPS]

Public opinions do change too easly.Thunderbolts(original) are the best Marvel example.Maybe its just me,but in a world where Nordic gods are around people hate a guy who looks different,thats kinda pointless.
Second thing that seemed stupid is that mutant-haters go all KKK on people with superpower.

Widespread panic and hatred of people who are different are the most realistic things about the Marvel universe.

[Talavar]

I don't know, I've always had trouble with public reaction to superheroes in both Marvel and DC.  Look at how our society treats pro athletes and movie stars - people who are really good at sports, or play make believe heroes, and compare that to real people whose job is averting natural disasters and catching planes falling out of the sky.  They'd probably be treated like gods.

[Tomato]

Well, I'm reminded of a story during the Ion stuff where they brought up the fact that there ARE churches devoted to some of these heroes, and the problems it causes when that goes too far.

That being said, I point to the very examples you did- celebrities and athletes- as evidence that those exact types of things would happen. Think about how much news coverage there is EVERY TIME an athlete or celebrity does drugs, has an affair, or even gets drunk at a party. Imagine how much worse that would be with Superheroes, who would be the ultimate celebrities.

[hoss20]

^Yes,I did.But think about it,a lot of bad people gained their powers  cuz of chemicals or accidents.About mutants going out of control:NOT ALL OF THEM have that problem and even Iron Man had his suit taken over 999 so he can be danger if you think of it that way.
True people sometimes dont trust superheros but when were they ever gratefull to mutants?

Any group that discriminates against another always brings up the worst example or stereotype of that group. The fact that you think that it's stupid to have a problem with mutants, but not with other superheroes, is exactly the point Marvel was trying to make when it created the X-men back in the 60's.

If we think of superheroes as "all Mankind" and mutants as a race, different because of genetics, then the fact that they are hated or discriminated against is racism. Yes, it sounds ridiculous, but so is racism. To hate someone because of a difference in their chromosomes is asinine. 

If you haven't read it already, I would highly recommend picking up the mini-series Marvels, printed back in 1994 and created by Kurt Busiek and Alex Ross. It details the events of the Marvel Universe as told by a human news reporter. One of the issues focuses on mutants and the fear of them. I don't have it handy, so I'm not able to relate much to you, but the one thing that is prevalent throughout the series is that no matter how much the people were grateful to have superheroes (all superheroes) protecting them, they also were in fear of them and the danger they brought just being around.

Talavar/Tomato: Wasn't there a scene in the JLA/Avengers crossover where the Marvel heroes came across a statue of a DC hero in one of their cities and one of them said (paraphrasing), "They must be revered/think of themselves as gods." ? Sorry, my stuff is in storage, so I couldn't look it up. Regardless of what was said, I always thought that this was a great example of the differences between the two universes.

[Tomato]

There is indeed. I have my copy out from doing the CSA reviews, and there are a couple bits in there... one where Flash steps in and stops a crowd from terrorizing a mutant, and then later when the Avengers go to the DCU they take down some thugs and a whole bunch of people show up trying to figure out who they are and get autographs. One of the major conflicts between the two groups is over this fact... the Justice League feels the Avengers aren't going far enough and have left their world in shambles, and the Avengers feel like the JLA is lording their power over the population like gods.

[HarryTrotter]

^BTW Hawkeye is the only person to be a member of JLA and the Avengers.
@T Its kinda natural people fear those who are different.Even DC has Doom Patrol.
In Thunderbolt when NY is attacked,the Major in an emergency says to call every possible hero...heck,even X-men.So they are the last resort?That is just mean.

[JKCarrier]

With mutants, there is the implied threat that this is a new species that's going to eventually take over. There's a great line from the Roy Thomas / Neal Adams run of X-Men comics that's been quoted and paraphrased many times since (including in the "Days of Future Past" movie): "What did the last Neanderthal say to the first Cro Magnon?" Hulk or Iron Man might be powerful, but you don't have to worry about them taking your place on the evolutionary ladder.

[HarryTrotter]

With mutants, there is the implied threat that this is a new species that's going to eventually take over. There's a great line from the Roy Thomas / Neal Adams run of X-Men comics that's been quoted and paraphrased many times since (including in the "Days of Future Past" movie): "What did the last Neanderthal say to the first Cro Magnon?" Hulk or Iron Man might be powerful, but you don't have to worry about them taking your place on the evolutionary ladder.

That viewpoint can explain something.But as a regular human how would you even know whos got superpowers and whos a mutant.
Like I said you have Human Torch and you have Magma,Sunfire and Pyro.Now imagine yourself as a regular Jo in Marvel universe.How would you tell the difference on how any of them got their powers?

[hoss20]

That's a good point, JKC. I had forgotten about that statement. After all, the mutant species is classified as Homo superior.

[crimsonquill]

But as a regular human how would you even know whos got superpowers and whos a mutant.
Like I said you have Human Torch and you have Magma,Sunfire and Pyro.Now imagine yourself as a regular Jo in Marvel universe.How would you tell the difference on how any of them got their powers?

This is a very complicated topic because Marvel has tweaked how they have handled this mutant/superhuman situation over the years. Mutants usually get their powers during their early phases of puberty with some exceptions (Nightcrawler was born with his mutations) and the majority of them just want to learn to control their abilities and live normal lives as possible. Superheroes/supervillians usually had their origin and usually found themselves being a villain or a superhero in some kind of costume or uniform or whatever. Spider-Man has been accused by the general public as a mutant and several other characters over the years have run that course of a storyline before. The Ultimate Universe pretty much just solved the problem by having Sentinels constantly scanning the population for mutations and killing them on the spot until they finally got Captain America in political office to finally give them rights and not have to hide anymore. The Regular Marvel Universe now has a whole different situation.. there are mutants and now inhumans that are appearing when they reach maturity plus the whole regular superhuman origins.. and the general population really can't tell the difference unless something narrows it down (Inhumans seem to be able to detect each other, Mutants are outed by Sentinels or mutant detection devices or just happen to be a student at an X-School, and everyone else by being neither of the other two).

As far as the cinematic universe, Fox's X-Men Universe has been dealing with mutations for awhile but there doesn't seem to be any other type of superheroes and supervillians in this mutant only universe and thanks to Trask's handheld mutant detectors will probably be much easier to spot mutants among the population. Marvel Studios' Universe doesn't have any mutations and most powers that might be possible mutations are deemed "rumored" or "myths". Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch seem to be experiments of using the alien technology to create mutates (artificial mutations) or as Baron Von Strucker termed them "miracles". So there really isn't too much confusion among the average joe in either universe.. they are just powered people.

- CQ

[HarryTrotter]

Since the movies dont have both types there isnt much to be said there.
But like you said if ordinary people cant tell the difference how do they know who to hate then?

[crimsonquill]

Since the movies dont have both types there isnt much to be said there.
But like you said if ordinary people cant tell the difference how do they know who to hate then?

They just hate Mutants in general because they are deemed "living weapons" or "unnatural beings". Does not matter if they have an obvious mutation or look like everyone else. The mutant haters just start showing up in places where they might be seen holding signs and then usually become the first to riot when actual mutants or pro-mutant supporters show up to defend themselves. Then you add in the MRD (Mutant Response Division) which is a military police created by Anti-Mutant Politicians which are there to "protect" the human citizens and round up any dangerous mutants into protective custody (aka Mutant Camps).

Now remember the Sentinels eventually go amok in both the comics and movies because following the rules of genetics everyone who has powers or possibility of mutation will eventually have offspring that ARE mutants. So the Sentinels pretty much decide to just enforce complete genocide which ends up with all super humans being killed, rounded up into prison camps, or sterilized permanently to be "reeducated" into soldiers or mutant-hunting Hounds. This has happened over and over and over in most storylines which feature humankind becoming fearful of super humans no matter where their powers come from.

- CQ

[HarryTrotter]

^That somewhat explains it,I guess.