The Dark Knight Rises!

[oldmanwinters]

bredon7777, I like your point about how TDKR could have been even better if we had gotten a Hathaway Catwoman set up film.  However, I think Batman's story works very transitioning from TDK to TDKR.  I prefer to think of it as a 3 act play like Nolan does.  But some supplementary material could have been good.

[Shogunn2517]

bredon,

Spoiler

Whether or not it was Selina or not is outside the point.  Actually even if it was Selina, that actually makes it worse.  That's still what Alfred WANTED to see.  He wanted to see Bruce in a "normal" life, with "normal" people.  How convenient that they are there all at the same time, just EXACTLY how Alfred ALWAYS had hoped.  Way too convenient.

And I would not dare watch a Batman movie with SOME DUDE playing Batman.  That's an insult.  That's like giving the middle finger to Bob Kane.  I barely could watch Batman Beyond.

Guys.  There's a really specific reason why Nolan comfirmed with absolutely certainty that The Dark Knight Rises is the absolute last Batman film and it isn't because these movies make him a assload of money.  He killed Batman.  Even if he didn't, he killed his identity, his will, his reason to be Batman.  I don't understand it.  That's not what the character's about.

I don't get it.  People bitched Michael Bay for wanting to make mutant turtles come from Mars.  They wanted to thrall Bret Ratner for giving Jean Grey a personality disorder instread of being possessed by an intergalactic superbadass.  Speaking of which, WE ALL tore Tim Story a new dookieshoot for making Galactus into some wussy dust cloud... that gets blown away by The Silver Surfer.

And this is somehow more acceptable to people?

[Shogunn2517]

bredon7777, I like your point about how TDKR could have been even better if we had gotten a Hathaway Catwoman set up film.  However, I think Batman's story works very transitioning from TDK to TDKR.  I prefer to think of it as a 3 act play like Nolan does.  But some supplementary material could have been good.

To be perfectly honest, one of the more redeeming qualities of this movie was her and it'd be a shame to see someone that well done, that well portrayed to just be that.  I would have loved to see a spinoff film with Catwoman and more of her backstory. 

Spoiler

To be perfectly honest, I'm still not too sure what Bane had over her in the first place.  It would have been great to see what she was doing during No Man's Land too.  She made a comment about it being "her" neighborhood.  I know hardcore fans got the reference, but nothing was explored beyond that.  Why not put Hathaway in a movie.  THAT, I'd watch.  So long as they don't kill her(nine times) too.

Sucks for Halle, but hell we had a Spiderman franchise three years removed from another, why not.

[detourne_me]

Shogunn,

Spoiler

I think the point Nolan is trying to make here is that, these movies aren't from a comic book.  He really wanted to break out of the medium that the story originated in, and in doing so is telling a completely different sort of story.  In comics, characters are timeless, you can build on 75 years of continuity and do nearly anything you want wih the characters, that's the nature of the medium, the limitless potential of comics.
Films, on the other hand, are more grounded in reality... and i believe Nolan recognizes this, that they are more grounded in a physical way.  You can't have the same cast and crew produce quality work consistently over a number of years, the only exception being perhaps the Harry Potter series, but that was finite to begin with.
This is what Bryan Singer didn't understand.  He tried to resurrect the Donner Superman films and failed. Nolan here, was able to tell his story and effectively end it... even if it's for the greater good actually, or WB's best interests for future investment

[Shogunn2517]

Shogunn,

Spoiler

I think the point Nolan is trying to make here is that, these movies aren't from a comic book.  He really wanted to break out of the medium that the story originated in, and in doing so is telling a completely different sort of story.  In comics, characters are timeless, you can build on 75 years of continuity and do nearly anything you want wih the characters, that's the nature of the medium, the limitless potential of comics.
Films, on the other hand, are more grounded in reality... and i believe Nolan recognizes this, that they are more grounded in a physical way.  You can't have the same cast and crew produce quality work consistently over a number of years, the only exception being perhaps the Harry Potter series, but that was finite to begin with.
This is what Bryan Singer didn't understand.  He tried to resurrect the Donner Superman films and failed. Nolan here, was able to tell his story and effectively end it... even if it's for the greater good actually, or WB's best interests for future investment

Funny you should say that, because I was JUST thinking about something ELSE that bothered me.

Spoiler

Nolan spent two whole movies to convince us that some guy wearing a costume can actually go around a city and fight crime.  I mean, he even mentioned he NEVER would put a Robin in a Nolan movie because it wouldn't be realistic.  More to that fact, The Dark Knight was effectively a Law & Order movie with Batman in it.  But in this, as much of a fan of the comics I am, I think they stretched the realm of believability a little too much.  Blowing up a football stadium?  Cutting off a major American city from the rest of the world?  Busting out a prison and allowing the criminals run an entire city for months?  I mean, to be perfectly honest, as I sat through it, I immediately felt, "man, this ain't realistic.  How would something like this happen in real life?"  Then I remembered "Oh, this is a Batman/comic book movie... and it's actually based on a Batman/comic book storyline."  And I started to be a little okay with it until I remembered again "Oh, wait, I thought Nolan was supposed to be convincing us that this could actually be real."  So yeah, just a little put off by what was happening.

But yeah, thanks for reminding me about Singer giving Superman a child and how much that bothered people.

[Podmark]

bredon,

Spoiler

That's still what Alfred WANTED to see.  He wanted to see Bruce in a "normal" life, with "normal" people.  How convenient that they are there all at the same time, just EXACTLY how Alfred ALWAYS had hoped.  Way too convenient.

Spoiler

I don't think it's convenient at all, I think it's intentional. Alfred had already told Bruce the story so I think Bruce went there knowing Alfred would be there. It's his way of saying goodbye to Alfred. It's probably my favorite scene in the movie.

Batman Beyond is my favorite DC cartoon so I don't have an issue with a new Batman or Bruce retiring.

[Tomato]

Spoiler

I agree with Pod's assessment of that scene. It wasn't that bruce was living the perfect marriage or anything... he never could. The film itself established that he'd never be content settling down and raising a family. But he did it to make Alfred happy, knowing that's what he wanted him to have.

Truthfully, I saw Bruce taking a more Batman Beyond-esque role... By "dying" he cemented peace in Gotham as much, if not more, then he had with lie of Harvey Dent, and it left him free to help the world "with his mind, not his body" as Alfred put it. What little still needed to be done for Gotham on the physical side of things he left to Robin (who he's clearly still keeping tabs on JIC).

[Deaths Jester]

Here's the thing about TDKR: It's a great 6th movie in a series of 6.  The problem is, of course, that its only the third movie.

They needed at least three more movies to properly set up this movie (although, to be fair, one of them could be a Catwoman solo movie. WB, if you're listening:I would watch the CRAP out of an Anne Hathaway solo Catwoman movie, and I pray you were smart enough to put that option in her contract. She was PURR-FECT (Death's Jester, I don't know who you were listening to- her line readings, especially as Catwoman, just dripped with sexiness to me), and you need to wash away the stain of that Halley Berry abomination).

If they had set up the film with a Catwoman movie beforehand, I might've understood her portrayal of the character a bit better and not be so hard on Hathaway...I just have a hard time hearing Hathaway speak and not thinking of the Princess Diaries.

[laughing paradox]

This movie was way more fun than the previous Batman flick. Selina Kyle stole the show. It ended well.

I was totally distracted by Bane's voice, though. He sounded like Dracula to me. That was a mild annoyance. I also wish the Bane/Batman fights were just a little better choreographed.

I do have a question:

Spoiler

I zoned out during the segment at the end where Lucius Fox was talking to two operatives. It was something about Bruce Wayne doing something six months ago? What was that?

[Podmark]

I do have a question:

Spoiler

I zoned out during the segment at the end where Lucius Fox was talking to two operatives. It was something about Bruce Wayne doing something six months ago? What was that?

Spoiler

I believe that's the scene where Lucius finds out that Bruce finished the autopilot for the Bat. It's the scene that sets up his survival.

[laughing paradox]

I do have a question:

Spoiler

I zoned out during the segment at the end where Lucius Fox was talking to two operatives. It was something about Bruce Wayne doing something six months ago? What was that?

Spoiler

I believe that's the scene where Lucius finds out that Bruce finished the autopilot for the Bat. It's the scene that sets up his survival.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, Pod!

[Ares_God_of_War]

Spoiler

Anyone else think that the Joker would have been pretty good for that court scene? I think he would have started to screw with Bane at some point

[Shogunn2517]

I do have a question:

Spoiler

I zoned out during the segment at the end where Lucius Fox was talking to two operatives. It was something about Bruce Wayne doing something six months ago? What was that?

Spoiler

I believe that's the scene where Lucius finds out that Bruce finished the autopilot for the Bat. It's the scene that sets up his survival.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, Pod!

Spoiler

His alledged survival.  Him fixing the auto-pilot shouldn't be a automatic leap to him surviving.  Especially when we see him in the cockpit three seconds before it explodes.

[captainawesome]

I do have a question:

Spoiler

I zoned out during the segment at the end where Lucius Fox was talking to two operatives. It was something about Bruce Wayne doing something six months ago? What was that?

Spoiler

I believe that's the scene where Lucius finds out that Bruce finished the autopilot for the Bat. It's the scene that sets up his survival.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, Pod!

Spoiler

His alledged survival.  Him fixing the auto-pilot shouldn't be a automatic leap to him surviving.  Especially when we see him in the cockpit three seconds before it explodes.

That's why he's Batman.

[BWPS]

I do have a question:

Spoiler

I zoned out during the segment at the end where Lucius Fox was talking to two operatives. It was something about Bruce Wayne doing something six months ago? What was that?

Spoiler

I believe that's the scene where Lucius finds out that Bruce finished the autopilot for the Bat. It's the scene that sets up his survival.

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks, Pod!

Spoiler

His alledged survival.  Him fixing the auto-pilot shouldn't be a automatic leap to him surviving.  Especially when we see him in the cockpit three seconds before it explodes.

Spoiler

But that would mean that when Alfred saw them at the cafe... he was dreaming?

OH MY GOD TDKR IS A SEQUEL TO INCEPTION!

Well played, Nolan, well played.

[oldmanwinters]

My logical mind prefers to think that Alfred might have been hallucinating at the end.

Also...

Spoiler

If Indiana Jones can survive a nuclear explosion (unharmed) in a fridge, then I suppose the Batpod cockpit could have been "nuke proof."  Do'h.

[bredon7777]

Not trying to pick a fight, but I find it really insulting to Alfred to claim that he was hallucinating.  There is no evidence for it, and a ton of evidence against it.

Spoiler

Podmark hit it right on the nose. Bruce knew Alfredwas at the cafe, and wanted to let Alfred know he was allright, and had moved on from Batman, and had found someone. It was deliberate.  And while I still maintain we needed another movie to explain how Alfred went from :"Lets renovate under the southeast corner of the mansion" to "I'm outta here"- I felt that scene at the cafe redeemed him perfectly.

As for

Spoiler

Batman surviving the Bomb- Bane made it clear on more than one occasion that it was a neutron bomb.  Now, I may be mis remembering my HS science class- but IIRC, a neutron bomb did very little physical damage. My science professor back then called it the human roach bomb- kills humans, leaves buildings standing.  So as long as it hit the water before it exploded, I don't have a problem with Bruce getting away- besides, he may have gotten enough radiation exposure to get cancer later, we'll never know

Here's the thing, Shogun-

Spoiler

Bruce Wayne's already BEEN Batman.  Would I watch a movie where Robin John Blake becomes Batman before anyone else? No; I'd be just as outraged as you are.  But Bruce's story is done, and I've got no problem with him passing on the gig to someone else.  And if  we kept this cast and this director, Yeah, I'd watch the hell out of it. YMMV

[BWPS]

Spoiler

Totally agree, the hallucination idea is quite some leap.

I'd watch Joseph Gordon-Levitt as Batman2/Robin/Nightwing/Aquaman/absolutely anything. He's fantastic. I can't wait for Looper, though that's as much because it's a Rian Johnson directing JGL and Brick is an awesome movie.

[Shogunn2517]

Spoiler

I don't think it's an insult to Alfred.  But I'm almost thinking what was everyone expecting to see?  Of course we were going to see Bruce there.  Alfred pretty much said as much waaaay earlier in the movie.  Actually, he DID say as much.  For him to be in that cafe, like Alfred wanted to see and hoped and dreamed of seeing for years, and for him to go back, what were we expecting to see? 

Seriously, if the boy you grew up taking care of, who you loved more than your own life grows up and dies and you see him months later in a cafe COMPLETELY UNEXPECTED, would YOU really just smile and nod like Alfred did?  Really?  I don't want to relate this to real life, but my brother died 12 years ago, October.  If I saw him on October 13, 2000, a day after he died, I'd hug him like a Ricki Lake reunion show.  I definitely would if I hadn't seen him in months!  That wasn't him.

And as far as insults go:

Spoiler

I think it's insulting to Batman that anyone could even fathom that anyone else could actually BE Batman.  In the comics, there were extreuating circumstances that had two other people being Batman, but neither of them lasted, nor were they meant to.  Bruce Wayne is Batman.  Batman is Bruce Wayne.  That's his battle, his life, his world.  He has dedicated his life, trained his mind and body for this.  He is Batman because the world is effed up.  He will continue to be Batman until the world is not effed up.  The world will always be effed up.  He will always be Batman.  2+2+1+1.  What's really insulting is the interpretation that, A. He can just give up being Batman because B. The world is fixed enough that he does not need Batman.  That's not how or why Batman works.

[captmorgan72]

Spoiler

If Blake wants to become Gotham's new champion, he has years of training ahead of him. He needs to take a similar journey as Bruce took before becoming Batman. Right now, he's just an average man, average strength, average fighting skills, just average. It would be pretty cool if Levitt packed on 20+ pounds of muscle and returned as Nightwing. It could even be implied that Bruce trained him over the years. I think it's fairly obvious that the character John Blake is a amalgamation of Grayson, Todd and Drake. I would pay to see this.

[Midnite]

Just wondering how would you guys cast the Batman reboot?

Batman/Bruce -
Alfred -
Lucius Fox -
James Gordan - Bryan Cranston
Mr. Freeze - Daniel Craig
Joker - Adrien Brody
Killer Croc - Ron Pearlman

[oldmanwinters]

Not trying to pick a fight, but I find it really insulting to Alfred to claim that he was hallucinating.  There is no evidence for it, and a ton of evidence against it.

My bad, bredon.  When I made that post, I wanted it to be taken tongue-in-cheek, but I just forgot to put some emoticon in. 

Looks like I finally found it:


My ribbing grows out of my (small) frustration that the Nolan Bat-series was so grounded in realism (as much as possible), and I just don't see any realistic way that the film could end the way we were led to believe it did.

But I think I can at least buy your scientific theory about the nature of the device.  I don't know anything about the science behind it, but it is plausible.

[Podmark]

I'm totally with BWPS and bredon on this one.

Spoiler

The face value of the cafe scene is that it's real. I don't recall any effects or cues that it could be a hallucination. Also being a hallucination would change a very uplifting ending into something very somber and sad and I don't think that's what the film was going for.

James Gordan - Bryan Cranston

Hah, I like that one. He did a great job with the voice at least in the Year One film.

[oldmanwinters]

This thread seems to be winding down...

In a desperate attempt to breath some life back into it, here's TMNT co-creator Peter Laird's thoughts on how the film reminded him for a ("silly") early script idea for the first Ninja Turtles movie:
http://plairdblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/a-brief-review-of-dark-knight-rises.html

[Talavar]

Just saw this, and the hallucination/Alfred's dream theory for the ending is a bad hallucination.

There's no evidence for it, and three pieces against:

Spoiler

1.  Alfred tells Bruce about his hope, meaning it's exactly what Bruce could recreate to show Alfred he's okay. 
2.  After the bomb detonates, Lucius gets told about the auto-pilot being fixed, and fixed by Bruce Wayne 6 months ago. 
3.  We see an actual scene of Bruce and Selina in a cafe across from Alfred, in a movie that is in no way about subjective reality.  That kind of uncertainty finds footing in a movie like Memento or Inception, but there's no sign of it here.  Also, Alfred never really saw Selina, why would he imagine Bruce with her (and it's definitely Anne Hatheway)?  Point 2 is also meaningless without point 3 - why mention that the autopilot worked if Bruce is actually dead?  All it does is introduce the plot-hole of 'why didn't he use autopilot?'

Really, there's no reason in the film to suspect the scene isn't real, beyond not liking the scene.

[BWPS]

You want more discussion: how the hell does Bane eat?


He goes shirtless enough to know he doesn't have a peg tube and he's huge so he ain't exactly starving.

Maybe a coworker gives him high-protein suppositories? If that's the case it's good for him he didn't team up with Poison Ivy this time.

[Shogunn2517]

Just saw this, and the hallucination/Alfred's dream theory for the ending is a bad hallucination.

There's no evidence for it, and three pieces against:

Spoiler

1.  Alfred tells Bruce about his hope, meaning it's exactly what Bruce could recreate to show Alfred he's okay. 
2.  After the bomb detonates, Lucius gets told about the auto-pilot being fixed, and fixed by Bruce Wayne 6 months ago. 
3.  We see an actual scene of Bruce and Selina in a cafe across from Alfred, in a movie that is in no way about subjective reality.  That kind of uncertainty finds footing in a movie like Memento or Inception, but there's no sign of it here.  Also, Alfred never really saw Selina, why would he imagine Bruce with her (and it's definitely Anne Hatheway)?  Point 2 is also meaningless without point 3 - why mention that the autopilot worked if Bruce is actually dead?  All it does is introduce the plot-hole of 'why didn't he use autopilot?'

Really, there's no reason in the film to suspect the scene isn't real, beyond not liking the scene.

Guys, you all are trying to make it sound like Alfred is tripping on LSD or something.  I'm not saying that he was, no more than I'm saying he was tripping earlier in the movie.  But all of that is STILL beyond the point though.

Spoiler

  Alfred does indeed tell Bruce not just what he hoped, but what he always wanted to see him in, a regular life... as if he'd really have a regular life with Catwoman anyway.  Not only that, but fixing auto-pilot doesn't automatically mean he wasn't in it.  If you're actually suggesting Nolan gave absolutely NO reason to suspect that Bruce Wayne did not die, then we would not have seen him fly off in the Bat with a bomb attached to it.  We would not have seen Batman in the cockpit of the Bat three seconds before it blew up.  We would not have left it open to suggestion at all that Batman had died.  It isn't like I'm the only person that is saying this.  But in the slight chance I am wrong, there is still one HUGE glaring problem with it all:

Whether Bruce Wayne killed himself or not, Nolan is STILL suggesting Batman could or would simply just GIVE UP being Batman, which would NOT happen.  Batman is the creation of a brutal and chaotic world.  As long as the world is brutal and chaotic, there will be a Batman.  The world is ALWAYS and will forever be brutal and chaotic.  Ergo, there will ALWAYS be Batman.  That Batman is Bruce Wayne.  It's his war.  He was the one with the resources, the dedictation and the ability to do it.  He would not just QUIT being Batman.  He COULD not do it.  Especially after what we saw happen in that movie?  Again, the moment he stops being Batman, some other eight-year old kid's parents are going to get blown away.  He cannot have that happen.  That is WHY he is Batman.  If he's dead, like I said he is, it's just weird, unauthentic and odd storytelling for that character.  But if he is alive like all of you are suggesting, that's FAR worst.  He's changing what the character is.  This is the same man who devised the ONLY strategy designed to defeat him if he were to go bad is hypnosis, to forget who he is.  Other wise he would not stop.  That's not who Bruce Wayne is.

[oldmanwinters]

Shogunn2517,

Spoiler

I agree that Bruce (in any multiverse) couldn't give up his fight forever.  Nevertheless, I can see him "retiring" from the traditional rooftop hopping style of justice.  Whether he's wearing a suit or pulling the strings of a protege behind a computer, Bruce Wayne will keep on fighting.   We've seen him "retire" in a number of different Batman-universes, but he always has another comeback in him.

But for the sake of the movie trilogy, we don't necessarily have to see him doing that.  We just know he will... given enough time.

You want more discussion: how the hell does Bane eat?


He goes shirtless enough to know he doesn't have a peg tube and he's huge so he ain't exactly starving.

Maybe a coworker gives him high-protein suppositories? If that's the case it's good for him he didn't team up with Poison Ivy this time.

That's a really good question.  I am stumped!

[Podmark]

I don't think I agree Shogunn2517.

Spoiler

While many versions of the Batman would not quit, that's not what Nolan created. he already had a Bruce that quit for 8 (?) years between the second and third movie, and he was already showing that Bruce was physically breaking down (the cane and leg brace). I recall a study I heard about that said that if somebody tried to be Batman there would only be a small window that they could physically manage it, I think that is what Nolan is going for. Bruce can't be Batman forever and his films are about the start and end of Batman. You can certainly reject that as an idea, but I still think that's what Nolan was going for.

Now who's to say that Bruce is really going to live a normal life, who's to say that he's even trying. I have a easier time believing that Bruce faked that scene for Alfred's piece of mind than I do it being Alfred seeing what he wanted.

[Talavar]

Just saw this, and the hallucination/Alfred's dream theory for the ending is a bad hallucination.

There's no evidence for it, and three pieces against:

Spoiler

1.  Alfred tells Bruce about his hope, meaning it's exactly what Bruce could recreate to show Alfred he's okay. 
2.  After the bomb detonates, Lucius gets told about the auto-pilot being fixed, and fixed by Bruce Wayne 6 months ago. 
3.  We see an actual scene of Bruce and Selina in a cafe across from Alfred, in a movie that is in no way about subjective reality.  That kind of uncertainty finds footing in a movie like Memento or Inception, but there's no sign of it here.  Also, Alfred never really saw Selina, why would he imagine Bruce with her (and it's definitely Anne Hatheway)?  Point 2 is also meaningless without point 3 - why mention that the autopilot worked if Bruce is actually dead?  All it does is introduce the plot-hole of 'why didn't he use autopilot?'

Really, there's no reason in the film to suspect the scene isn't real, beyond not liking the scene.

Guys, you all are trying to make it sound like Alfred is tripping on LSD or something.  I'm not saying that he was, no more than I'm saying he was tripping earlier in the movie.  But all of that is STILL beyond the point though.

Spoiler

  Alfred does indeed tell Bruce not just what he hoped, but what he always wanted to see him in, a regular life... as if he'd really have a regular life with Catwoman anyway.  Not only that, but fixing auto-pilot doesn't automatically mean he wasn't in it.  If you're actually suggesting Nolan gave absolutely NO reason to suspect that Bruce Wayne did not die, then we would not have seen him fly off in the Bat with a bomb attached to it.  We would not have seen Batman in the cockpit of the Bat three seconds before it blew up.  We would not have left it open to suggestion at all that Batman had died.  It isn't like I'm the only person that is saying this.  But in the slight chance I am wrong, there is still one HUGE glaring problem with it all:

Whether Bruce Wayne killed himself or not, Nolan is STILL suggesting Batman could or would simply just GIVE UP being Batman, which would NOT happen.  Batman is the creation of a brutal and chaotic world.  As long as the world is brutal and chaotic, there will be a Batman.  The world is ALWAYS and will forever be brutal and chaotic.  Ergo, there will ALWAYS be Batman.  That Batman is Bruce Wayne.  It's his war.  He was the one with the resources, the dedictation and the ability to do it.  He would not just QUIT being Batman.  He COULD not do it.  Especially after what we saw happen in that movie?  Again, the moment he stops being Batman, some other eight-year old kid's parents are going to get blown away.  He cannot have that happen.  That is WHY he is Batman.  If he's dead, like I said he is, it's just weird, unauthentic and odd storytelling for that character.  But if he is alive like all of you are suggesting, that's FAR worst.  He's changing what the character is.  This is the same man who devised the ONLY strategy designed to defeat him if he were to go bad is hypnosis, to forget who he is.  Other wise he would not stop.  That's not who Bruce Wayne is.

Introducing the auto-pilot after the fact, then suggesting it wasn't used is ridiculously bad storytelling; it's nothing but introducing a plot hole.  What Nolan is doing here is a narrative technique called building suspense. 

Spoiler

He leads you to believe Batman is dead, yes, then woop - he's not really!  Any sort of slight twist ending basically functions this way - build your expectations of one thing, then hit you with something else. 

That this version of Batman would quit being Batman is definitely a change to the character, but it's a change introduced in Batman Begins.  This version of Batman always intended to quit, did quit for 8 years after the last movie, then quits again here.  Batman also quit at least in the Dark Knight Returns and the DC Animated Universe (the prologue to Batman Beyond), so it's not an unheard of change.  In the comics, they never have to worry about it, because Batman is eternal & unaging, but in any format trying to conclude his story, Batman has to either retire or die.  As it's clear Batman doesn't die here, a (potentially temporary) retirement is a valid ending to his story in my opinion.