Iron Man 3

[Shogunn2517]

Since casting news of the film has picked up, thought I'd jot down what some may or may not know.  A few months ago it was announced that Iron Man 3 would be the next Marvel film and filming would start in early May.

It was also announced not too long ago that Shane Black(the first guy killed in Predator) would be directing and Ben Kingsley would also be starring.  Given his Asian heritage, many speculated he'd be playing the Mandarin.

A few days ago, it was announced that Guy Pierce would be playing Aldrich Killian.
http://www.variety.com/article/VR1118052904

Despite the director on record saying the characterization of the Mandarin was racist, Andy Lau was cast as a Chinese friend of Tony Stark who represents a Chinese Technology sector.
http://www.g4tv.com/attackoftheshow/blog/post/723176/iron-man-3-possible-details-on-mandarin/

Sounds like they were hinting on the Extremis storyline... Which would be a little weird.  IMO.

Anyway, thought I'd start a thread.

[Previsionary]

It's also been reported that Scar Jo will not be returning to the series, so you won't be getting your third dose of Black Widow unless she has a spin-off movie.

[Shogunn2517]

TBH, she was the one saying now that the bar has been set with The Avengers, it'd be kind of weird for other characters to NOT show up in each others movies.  Maybe we'll get other cameos.

[Talavar]

I don't think the Mandarin is happening for a couple of reasons.  First, Iron Man 3 is going to be filming in part in China, and China is pretty touchy about being portrayed in a bad light.  Second is, you know, the racism....

I've also heard that after Avengers, Iron Man 3 is going to be a little less superhero-y and a little more science fiction-y; the Extremis storyline would work with that.

It's also been reported that Scar Jo will not be returning to the series, so you won't be getting your third dose of Black Widow unless she has a spin-off movie.

Or Avengers 2!

[BentonGrey]

I don't think the Mandarin is happening for a couple of reasons.  First, Iron Man 3 is going to be filming in part in China, and China is pretty touchy about being portrayed in a bad light.  Second is, you know, the racism....

Ehh, I don't really think it would be that hard to create a Mandarin character who isn't racist.  I mean, they had already laid the groundwork for the guy to just be a criminal mastermind in Iron Man 1, with the Ten Rings and all.  Just don't have him be a Kung-Fu master, take one of his later costumes, and I think it'd probably be okay.

I wish we would see him as a villain.  I'd like that.

[Shogunn2517]

You know I think it'll be unfortunate if they do another Iron Man Movie and The Mandarin NOT be the villain in some fashion.  From what I'm hearing from the links above and others is that

Spoiler

"The Mandarin" is to be a criminal organization lead by Kingsley's character.  Since he isn't Chinese and the organization could POSSIBLY be a multi-ethnic organization fighting against Chinese elements(Lau's character), then that could avoid any possible racism or mischaracterization of the culture.

I dunno.  I just think it's really possible to do and considering the movie IS using Chinese/Asian characters in an Asian setting, how could they actually avoid using an Asian character?

[Panther_Gunn]

Maybe I missed something somewhere, but how is the Mandarin racist?  Does that mean that Luke Cage is now racist?  Who's doing the complaining?  I'll admit, some of the portrayals back in the day of characters that weren't American Caucasians living in a major north-eastern city were poorly thought-out and executed, but that's no reason that it has to be that way if done in a movie now.

[JeyNyce]

I also don't understand the whole "racist" thing.  Just keep it simple: Iron Man/ Tony is all about tech.  The Mandarin is anti tech and uses magic, that's it!

[Shogunn2517]

Shane Black said that the Mandarin is a charicature of an Asian villain.  I can't say if that was the case when the character was first written, but it's got to be significantly better than the buck-tooth or fanged Japanese villains Captain American fought in WWII.

Either way, this article gives a bit more light on it.  I certainly hope they do go in this direction, instead of a lightly veiled hint. 
http://www.comicbookmovie.com/fansites/GraphicCity/news/?a=58556

A chinese character doesn't have to be depicted in the worse way.  Or stereotypical.  Or apparently even Chinese.

[Panther_Gunn]

Shane Black said that the Mandarin is a charicature of an Asian villain.

Honestly, if that's what he thinks, then he's horribly isolated, and probably being fed that opinion to him by someone else.  It almost sounds like he's taking old references out of context, and not even attempting to modernize the character away from that, while still staying true to the core of the character.  And if he wasn't the current director of the movie, I don't think anyone would give two "movements" about his opinion on the subject.  Ok, that's my two cents.

[Previsionary]

So question, guys:

Mandarin was the main villain in season one of Iron Man: Armored Adventure, and he's still around in season 2. He's Chinese in the series. For those that watch it, do any of you think he comes off as "racist" or a caricature? If not, then.... I just think they don't want to deal with the character, and if that's the case, then they should just say that

[BentonGrey]

Shane Black said that the Mandarin is a charicature of an Asian villain.

Honestly, if that's what he thinks, then he's horribly isolated, and probably being fed that opinion to him by someone else.  It almost sounds like he's taking old references out of context, and not even attempting to modernize the character away from that, while still staying true to the core of the character.  And if he wasn't the current director of the movie, I don't think anyone would give two "movements" about his opinion on the subject.  Ok, that's my two cents.

I think that sums it up nicely PG.  Yeah, when the Mandarin first appeared, he was definitely a caricature, but most early comic book characters were in one way or another.  You could easily tell a story that didn't have him practicing kung-fu and the like.  It seems like the real issue is that Marvel doesn't want to risk getting censored or banned altogether in China.  Heaven forbid there be a Chinese villain.

[Tomato]

Guys, I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but I do feel like you're glossing over a lot of legitimate concerns about the Mandarin character. Even if you strip out the kung fu, as well as any other trait that might possibly be considered a stereotype of the Chinese population, we're still talking about a Chinese villain named "The Mandarin" which, on top of being Chinese for "Official" or "Officer," is also the name of the most common dialect of their language. And it doesn't help matters that the character was perhaps the most well known and obvious use of anti-Asian propaganda in the original Iron Man books (Whether it was conscious or not, a huge portion of Iron Man's rogues gallery was made up of Chinese or Russian characters).

Remember guys, Iron Man 1 received criticism even here on FR because it kind of maybe portrayed Muslims in a bad light (I don't share that belief, but I do remember seeing debates about it). And that was just based on an Arab looking faction of a multinational group working in an Arab country... the Mandarin is essentially the comic book version of DBZ's Mr. Popo. I could spend about 20 minutes typing up about how the character was influential to the original dragonball for training Goku and that he wasn't just a stereotype black servant dude, but at the end of the day that's how most people remember him (and they ARE both stereotypes, you can't seriously deny that). Clearly someone involved in the first two films had a plan for the character, and it's a shame that probably won't pan out now, but you can't fault the current director because he doesn't want to risk that sort of controversy right out of the gate.

However, that's all moot in this case. From everything I've heard, IM3 will be based on the Extremis miniseries, which IMHO, is actually one of the better Iron Man stories in general, and one that falls in line with the narrative established in the first two movies. However, one of the overall conflicts of the Extremis storyline was innovation vs tradition... are we better for the changes in society as a result of changing technology, or should we destroy it all in favor of a more simple, cleaner lifestyle. Since the Mandarin is just as much a proponent of new technology as Tony Stark is, having him as the villain in this storyline would negate one of the fundamental issues of the original narrative.

At the end of the day, the purpose of having a villain in a movie is to add to the overall conflict. In this case, if the movie truly is going to be based on the Extremis series, the Mandarin would not be able to add anything to the story other than pointless fan-service. So even if they did smehow find a way to avoid the stereotype issues, shoehorning the character into a story he has no place being involved in would be a complete disservice to the character and you all know it.

Edit:

So question, guys:

Mandarin was the main villain in season one of Iron Man: Armored Adventure, and he's still around in season 2. He's Chinese in the series. For those that watch it, do any of you think he comes off as "racist" or a caricature? If not, then.... I just think they don't want to deal with the character, and if that's the case, then they should just say that

I wanted to address this, because the point Prev brings up here is valid and it ties into a lot of what Benton was saying about how the Mandarin character in the comics having developed beyond his propaganda roots. The problem, unfortunately, is that a movie has a much wider audience and is under much more scrutiny than a TV show... film makers would be walking a much finer line than IMAA did. I'm not saying it can't be done, but there are going to be people crying "racism!" even under the best of circumstances.

[BWPS]

I think Tony Stark is a resist caricature of white Americans:
A rich guy with no respect
Goes to other countries and kills Muslims
"Stark" can be a negative term for plain, referring to his skin color.
He forces a black guy into a separate but equal humvee at the back of the line.
He drinks health smoothies
He's a race

[deano_ue]

I think Tony Stark is a resist caricature of white Americans:
A rich guy with no respect
Goes to other countries and kills Muslims
"Stark" can be a negative term for plain, referring to his skin color.
He forces a black guy into a separate but equal humvee at the back of the line.
He drinks health smoothies
He's a race

seriously what ever you are drinking/snorting/smoking, STOP TAKING IT

[Previsionary]

UE, you're just mad that Tony Stark is a resist.

[steamteck]

I think Tony Stark is a resist caricature of white Americans:
A rich guy with no respect
Goes to other countries and kills Muslims
"Stark" can be a negative term for plain, referring to his skin color.
He forces a black guy into a separate but equal humvee at the back of the line.
He drinks health smoothies
He's a race

seriously what ever you are drinking/snorting/smoking, STOP TAKING IT

I thought he was using sarcasim to make a point myself but OK.

[cmdrkoenig67]

I personally don't see how a Chinese man dressing as a Chinese emperor, feeling he is destined to rule as being racist...It's one man, not a whole race.

Show some normal Chinese civilians in an attack that he makes on a city or show that the Chinese government is trying to stop his plans of conquest too (working with Iron man, maybe?) or something...problem solved.

Dana

[herodad1]

crap...i'm white. guess that puts me in the same category as Doctor Doom, Red skull (cause i have a German heritage), and even Galactus cause white people are devouring the world. oh yeah...being white also means i'm into bullying. sound dumb? talk about racism...people look at me as a world destroying oppressor and slave owner because of stupid crap hundreds of years ago. please people, flip off that shoulder chip and quit pointing fingers. i saw this thread and it said "Ironman 3". started reading and i thought i was gonna puke. this is whats wrong with OUR world. 

[cmdrkoenig67]

Iron Man I made terrorists and arms dealers look bad, not Muslims...How can anybody not see that?

Dana

[Previsionary]

People with an agenda and a chip on their shoulder. Look how "The Muppets" somehow had controversy tossed onto it. It only takes one person with a powerful enough voice to spark trouble.

[cmdrkoenig67]

Sad, ain't it?

Dana

[BentonGrey]

People with an agenda and a chip on their shoulder. Look how "The Muppets" somehow had controversy tossed onto it. It only takes one person with a powerful enough voice to spark trouble.

Wait, what?  How in the world did the Muppets stir up controversy?

:EDIT: I just looked it up.....ohh my goodness...what is wrong with people?  Seriously?

[Tomato]

Hi, I'm political correctness gone batsh*t crazy. I've been the giant elephant in the room for ages, but I'm glad to see that you're finally noticing me NOW.

Seriously guys, nothing discussed here is in ANY way new or surprising, as it's been the status quo for my entire adult life. Everything that gets put in front of a larger audience is subject to often ridiculous scrutiny for any assault, real or perceived, against a particular nationality. As I mentioned, Iron Man 1 even sparked someone to complain about Muslims being portrayed as villains or helpless victims... it's not a position I agree with AT ALL, but it was brought up at the time.

Now, I'm going to confess something to you all: I'm a white dude. Like, a REALLY white dude. Like, so white I'm practically a double for Deadman. And not only am I a REALLY white dude, my dad's side of the family were Germans who came over to the USA after WWII. My Paternal Grandfather was just about as racist as it is possible to be without donning white hoods, and it is only because my Father isn't a moron that the cycle didn't continue with him. If I wallowed in guilt over what my ancestors were like, I'd never leave the house just out of shame. However, just because I don't feel any guilt over what my moronic ancestors did, that doesn't mean I'm not empathetic to those who have dealt with racism.

That said, I really do think the situation with the Mandarin is one that should not be taken lightly. The early Iron Man books were notorious for Anti-Asian/Anti-Communist propaganda (Don't believe me? compare the number of major Chinese/Russian IM villains with those of any other nationality during Lee's original run on the book.) and the Mandarin is the most overtly racist creations of the bunch (his name is the most common dialect of the Chinese language, for goodness sake). Can you honestly tell me that if YOU were an Asian American, either growing up dealing with or had family members who dealt with the very REAL racism resulting from Iron Man and similar Cold War Propaganda, that a major comic book franchise promoting a villain called the MANDARIN wouldn't raise red flags with you?

Can it be done properly, without offending Chinese people? Absolutely. I feel like the writers on IM1 had clearly set the groundwork for something truly awesome, and I'm sorry that it may not come to fruition under the current director. But it's a lot of work and thought to put into an Iron Man villain who isn't really on Joker/Loki/Red Skull levels of arch-villainy anymore, and I cannot fault the new director for his opinion on the matter. We can go on and on about how Mandarin has transcended beyond his origin, but it's still something you'd need to justify for the audience of a multi-billion dollar film.

[oldmanwinters]

People with an agenda and a chip on their shoulder. Look how "The Muppets" somehow had controversy tossed onto it. It only takes one person with a powerful enough voice to spark trouble.

Wait, what?  How in the world did the Muppets stir up controversy?

:EDIT: I just looked it up.....ohh my goodness...what is wrong with people?  Seriously?

Never underestimate the lengths to which the "News Cats" will go to create a controversy!   

[thalaw2]

I saw Avengers and I think Iron Man was the only main character that looked good in 3D especially his HUD.  Therefore, I wouldn't mind seeing this movie in 3D.

[clownprince]

I think Tony Stark is a resist caricature of white Americans:
A rich guy with no respect
Goes to other countries and kills Muslims
"Stark" can be a negative term for plain, referring to his skin color.
He forces a black guy into a separate but equal humvee at the back of the line.
He drinks health smoothies
He's a race

seriously what ever you are drinking/snorting/smoking, STOP TAKING IT

morning coffee all over the keyboards.  wow that was funny. thanks

[Figure Fan]

Now, I'm going to confess something to you all: I'm a white dude. Like, a REALLY white dude. Like, so white I'm practically a double for Deadman.

I probably laughed way too hard at this..

[Shogunn2517]

James Badge Dale will play Savin (aka Coldblood-7), a villain in Iron Man 3. Robert Downey Jr stars and Shane Black is directing. Badge Dale just finished The Lone Ranger for Disney, and will next be seen in the Robert Zemeckis-directed Flight with Denzel Washington and World War Z with Brad Pitt. Marvel Studios gets underway with the film later this month. Ben Kinsgley has been rumored as The Mandarin, and Gwyneth Paltrow and Rebecca Hall are also in the film.

You probably know him as Lepke in HBO's The Pacific or Chase in 24, Day 3.

[cmdrkoenig67]

If the Mandarin is a man and not an organization, then get a real Asian man to play him...Having the character portrayed by a non-Asian man (the rumored Kingsley) is more offensive than anything.

Was there an outcry to the Mandarin on the Iron Man cartoons?  I still think there isn't an issue, if you have a variety of Asian characters to play the one power-mad Asian man against (civilians, military, etc...)

Dana